Instrument Rating at PPL Stage

[MajorCorporalArse]

I'm contemplating getting an instrument rating (got PPLwith OCTA etc) while i'm studying and doing my CPL training. I plan to have my CPL finished by end of year.

My only justification really is so I can nav in different sorts of wx to build command time up, I'd like to be able to fly back to melbourne regularly and visit both family and my g/f.

Is their any pro's (apart from the ones listed above), should I be waiting till i have my CPL? Flying at night via instruments?

What are the cons? Paying for renewals?

What are your opinions, has anyone done it like this?

[Hailstop3]

The main problem you are looking at is the experience requirements for CIR

The aeronautical experience of an applicant for the issue of a command instrument rating shall include:
(a) 50 hours cross-country flight time as pilot in command; and
(b) 40 hours instrument time, of which not less than 20 hours shall be instrument flight time on the category of aircraft for which the rating is sought; and
(c) 20 hours cross-country instrument time; and
(d) 10 hours dual instrument flight instruction time; and
(e) except for those persons whose licence is restricted to day only operations, 10 hours night flight of which not less than 5 hours shall be as pilot in command on the category of aircraft for which the rating is sought.

I actually completed a PIFR with all the applicable endorsements required, just after my PPL, and then with a friend who was at the same stage of training as me, we then did our navs for CPL under the IFR. We were able to log IF time since we were each other's safety pilot. Since we were able to find a twin at a cheap rate, I ended up at the end of it all walking away with 90hrs of twin and my CPL at just 180hrs total.

It was a very left field way of doing things, but I found it worked very well. Unfortunately the gentleman who was able to come up with this unique idea of training has since passed on, and unfortunately doing your hours 3 times over seems to be the best way the pilot factories are able to squeeze every cent out of unknowledgable new pilots.

[Frank Arouet]

The PIFR seems like a good starting point. A bit like incorporating a NVFR in the same training.

[MajorCorporalArse]

Thanks for the response, that's exactly what I was after.

I don't see the point in doing a NVFR if i'm going to do IF. It kind of seems a waste of time on nvfr, i'd rather do some extra dayvfr command time and work on the IF.

Cheers

[Tiger35]

Get straight into a full CIR.

It will test and develop your skills especially in regard to accuracy and workload management.

I'd suggest going for a full CTA package before you do though, just to make sure you are comfortable with the radio requirements and ATCisms.

It will take away some of the workload pressure while you "battle" with the rest of the required IFR stuff.

[Hailstop3]

I never got a nvfr rating either, and never needed it. A night Fpa on your PIFR will cover the night portion, which I think you need 5 in command for CIR. Also once you have a CIR later on, can't remember the exact requirements but it does cover nvfr flying if ever needed. To be honest, nvfr in a single piston i think is mental. It is basically the same as IFR and, with the CARs saying single engine piston charter is not allowed, isn't that saying how unsafe it is already? Kill yourself, just not the paying public.

A PIFR will cover everything a CIR will cover, it's just that each type of manoeuvre must be demonstrated and ticked off. In the end, it is probably more intense than a CIR test. Come the CIR test, you will breeze it through.

Thanks for the response, that's exactly what I was after.

I don't see the point in doing a NVFR if i'm going to do IF. It kind of seems a waste of time on nvfr, i'd rather do some extra dayvfr command time and work on the IF.

Cheers

[YZToby]

I did a CIR before getting a CPL. In my opinion it certainly helped having that bit more experience when it came time to do a CPL, full on training but enjoyable and rewarding at the same time.

[Howard Hughes]

A PIFR will cover everything a CIR will cover, it's just that each type of manoeuvre must be demonstrated and ticked off. In the end, it is probably more intense than a CIR test. Come the CIR test, you will breeze it through.

Don't you have to demonstrate all facets of IFR flying for an initial issue of a CIR too?:eek:

[MajorCorporalArse]

A full CTA Package?? You mean ALL CTA/CTR Ops? Class D/C - I've got that if so

Cheers for the responses

[glenb]

Be careful,

The holder of a CIR does not get the privileges of the NVFR unless they meet the recency and EXPERIENCE requirements outlined in the CAOs. Just because you have the CIR you can be quite confident that you will NOT have the required experience and therefore cannot operate under the NVFR.

The NVFR gives you the basics that reduce the cost of the CIR.

Additionally if you do have the NVFR experience requirements and your CIR isnt current you are unable to operate under the NVFR.

To do the CIR test you will require 10 hours night with 5 of it flown command. Can be quite messy to achieve without holding the NVFR. Requires sufficient dual checking to be sent for 5 solo by night. The dual training required to achieve this minimises the cost advantages of skipping the NVFR.

[glenb]

Just re-read your post and notice you are going on to a CPL.

Assume you are aiming to make a career of it and obtain your ATPL. Of the numerous requirements for this licence one of them is 100 hours PIC by night. This is generally the last requirement to be met. By obtaining the NVFR you can do some of your command hours by night towards the 70 required for the CPL. This could potentially reduce the time taken to achieve the full ATPL by a year. This is due to the fact that many charter pilots in their first job are unable to achieve night hours due to the restriction on pax carrying charter in a single by night.

Finally why not take advantage of the experience of the extra flight test.

[in-cog-nito]

G'day all.
Just to backing up what glenb has just posted re: charter pilots in their first jobs. I have also had CPLs with CIR coming back to do a NVFR because to companies they work for want them to have it. The may reason for this is so they can position the aircraft where the client needs to be picked up at first light or to fly back to base after dropping them at the end of the day.

Just wondering. If someone with a CIR and no NVFR does an instructor rating, and for some reason they don't renew the CIR. Does this mean that their FIR is no longer valid?

Use to know to the answer but have had some memory loss from a medical issue.

Cheers, In-cog

[drpixie]

In-cog - that sounds right, if your CIR lapses, you would no longer hold all the requirements to use the instructor rating!

Seeing as MajCorpArse is going to need the hours, getting NVFR and CIR on the way is added quals for no/little cost - go for it, all else being equal, extra quals is good.

Remember NVFR and PIFR don't lapse (although there are recent experience requirements) ... that might be very useful down the track.

One thing MajCorpArse - a 150 hr CPL must fit a specific syllabus, anything extra will be on top of the 150 required. If you're doing it the old fashioned way (200 hr), then requirements are just as in the regs (PIC, night, navs...) and you can get the night/navs/etc time doing other training (like NVFR/CIR/...)

[Dangnammit]

You bet me to it Dr.

Be careful if you're on the 150hr syllabus.
If not allowed for in the company's AOC, jumping into a twin means 200hrs before cpl test (that's my understanding).

[mcgrath50]

I have also had CPLs with CIR coming back to do a NVFR because to companies they work for want them to have it.

How hard is it for the guys doing this? I am in the same boat, currently have a CIR and just lacking about 1 night nav and a NVFR test from the requirements for a NVFR. Is it realistic to expect this to be enough to pass the test, or will it take a few NVFR flights before being ready?

[MajorCorporalArse]

Firstly, DR. I'm on a 200 hour syll with around 115hrs clocked.

Thanks for the info GlenB - Take it you are Glenn Buckley from MFT in ymmb?

I've spoken to a few blokes in the industry (qantas, qlink, jq, virign, cathay) and a few boys up north. They all are singing out "forget the nvfr, no need go straight for the CIR"

These guys are 60 yr olds to 25 year olds.. All with the same message.. My only query is. I'm gonna head up north for a bit to clock the hours and experience than look at something further will I need an NVFR - Depends on the employer?

I think i'll be able to clock up 50 hours at night just in 12 weeks and that's just getting home from my job and back..

Thanks for the input the more the better for an informed decision.
Cheers MCA

[Up-into-the-air]

Don't be talked out of a continual approval from PPL to CPL

Go to command instrument rating and then worry about your night rating later if you really serious about the command instrument rating, you can then do your night rating later. I undertook mine this way with a full PPL at 65 hours, then I went straight onto command instrument rating, doing the test and dealing with the ambiguities of the casa exam system.

I did my command instrument rating by spending a full week to do the flying training, traveling Sydney Brisbane and all the way to Cairns and coming back to the south through a full series of approaches.

The instructor had only got as far as just north of Brisbane, and had not tried any of the further north approaches, so it was a learning experience for both of us. I did 57 approaches in the week, certainly was tired when I'd finished, but had enough work done to complete my command is rate rating.

This allowed me to log some 20 - 25 hours a night, and when I got back, only had to do the single night circuits. I still consider this one of the most dangerous parts of doing the rating, and it needs some serious thought as to improving the safety issues that are incumbent in this section of the rating.

So from whoa to go, I had my command is rate rating, PPL, by the time I got to around 125 hours. The NVFR rating requirements are met at this point, only need the test and you can convert the CIR to a PIPL, which gives much better flexability for your command instrument rating and flying career at this point.

Still not fully confident, but certainly safe.

The key was selecting a very well-qualified and experienced instructor who was prepared to undertake the work in this fashion. The instructor had some 3500 hours of IFR training/flying experience. When you do choose somebody in this way, its most important to have somebody who you can work with and cope with this smelly armpits!!!

From a learning point of view we were both able to improve our experience levels and achieve the requirements for the command is rate rating.

Certainly was a very busy busy time – good luck with doing the instrument rating, and luck in the industry.

[drpixie]

MajCorpArse - what's best for you will always depend on what happens to you, I can't predict that for me, so I'm not going to try to predict that for you :)

But I know a few people who headed up north, (eventually) got work, and had their CIR lapse, because most of the basic work will be VFR. Then they were stuck without night or IF privileges - or expensive renewals that the company won't pay because they don't care if you are IFR.

My money is on getting the NVFR and also a PIFR rating (having a CIR is sufficient to qualify, shouldn't be any extra flights). Neither lapse, and it's reasonably easy (cheap) to fill recent experience requirements.

Whatever you choose, good luck.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Whenever you get a CIR, always get a PIFR used as well. Additional cost, nil, and you never know when it might come in handy. It's particularly useful to re-validate CIR recency if you are out.
Tootle pip!!