F100's to Emerald for Qantas

[BPA]

Qantas have announced Qantaslink will operate the F100 to Emerald, so who will operate Network or Alliance?

[Going Nowhere]

About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases - QantasLink jets into Emerald and expands services across Queensland (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/may-2012/5395/global/en)

Alliance.

Crewed by a growing number of Ex-Sunstate pilots :E

[De_flieger]

Are they going to get an Air Traffic Control service in any time soon? And where will they fit the F100s once theyve landed?

Its a crowded apron as it is, and the congestion in the air and on the ground makes flying there interesting at times. As it stands aircraft are having to hold on the runway while other aircraft board passengers and taxi clear of the terminal building simply because there isnt room to taxi off while the earlier aircraft are on the apron. When youve got Virgin, Rex and QLink all inbound or outbound at similar times, plus Toll Express and one or two smaller mail runs or private flights, it gets hectic. Throw in someone else who cant get a word in edgewise on the radio between all the taxiing, departing and inbound calls, or is a bit nervous as a new student, and the traffic mix gets very very busy, very quickly.

[wotthe]

Crewed by a growing number of Ex-Sunstate pilots http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

I doubt that very much. Not aware of too many from Sunstate.

[Chadzat]

Competition is a wonderful thing for passengers in country towns. 12 months ago Qlink was price gouging this route massively and now all of a sudden they see fit to put jets on! I dare say the Virgin ATR's will have this effect elsewhere as the Q400 struggles to compete. :D

[Fonz121]

Q400's struggling to compete against the ATR's? How so?

[teggun]

What do you mean as the Q400 struggles to compete, I don't think they would struggle to compete against the ATR.:hmm:

[Roger Greendeck]

Stuggle may be too strong a word but there is a definate difference in fuel per pax seat km between the ATR and Q400 which gives Virgin some room to move on price. It depends on whether pax notice or care that the flight takes a bit longer. In the case of Emerald/Brisbane I believe it is about 20 min difference. Not to be sneezed at but it depends how much you are prepared to wait to save some money.

[Fuel-Off]

I dare say the Virgin ATR's will have this effect elsewhere as the Q400 struggles to compete

Haven't noticed a dent in the patronage on the routes we compete with the ATR, still 80-95% full on most sectors...:hmm:

And define the term 'struggle' when we're (and even the classics!) are constantly overtaking them...oh...and how are those RNAV's going boys? :E

Fuel-Off :ok:

[Chadzat]

RNAV's are going about as well as your salary rates :D

[Fuel-Off]

Twas all tongue-in-cheek chadzat. :hmm: I could retort, but lets not hijack this thread into another competition on conditions.
Scuttlebutt on the Dash flight decks is that competition is welcomed! Keeps the incumbent honest, especially when it comes to in-flight services - new 'improved' grub for the punters etc. Word from the Sales manager is that they are genuinely concerned with Virgin entering the regional foray - Velocity comes to mind.

It's the all the same blue sky we fly in

Fuel-Off :ok:

[tech-line]

I don't know the true operating costs of the Dash but if you look across the ditch that should give you a very good answer to which one is 'better'.
ANZ operates both types and has done for a very long time.
One of the largest oerators of the Q300 and undoubtedly largest operator of ATR72's in the southern hemisphere.
Which aircraft did they purchase in their latests aircraft purchase?
Speed for passengers isn't everything!
Price, comfort and service mean alot more.
Have people that bag the ATR actually flown in an ATR?
Quiet and comfortable, even more quiet than a B737 and A320 in my books.

The last time I flew on Q300 was not impressed at al,l I hope Q400 has improved.

Also which company has sold more aircraft recently?

[davys747]

I've flown in the AT72 many times on the 1h40 leg between HN and CH and it is a truly miserable experience.

In saying that, I love the ATR as an aircraft, just not as a pax.

[Cargo744]

The war between dj and qf for the qld regional market is hotting up in bne. Both are using alliance whilst ordering more aircraft. It will be interesting to see who prevails but I guarantee prices have will and continue to drop. Unless the mining boom dies.

[Flyingblind]

Recently had the chance to experience the Q400 from CBR to SYD and a ATR on the return leg later that day.

Wanted to love the ATR but found the seats too narrow and unsupportive, the windows seemed to be designed for those about 4 FOOT tall to look out of.

So I guess in essence I'd like love the ATR 72-500 but as a 6'4 male I did not could not 'sit back, relax and enjoy etc'.

As a paying passenger the Dash provides the answer, as to the ATR72- 600 cabin experience ,well that's to be seen.

[Captain Gidday]

the windows designed for those about 4'' tall to look out of
4" = 100mm. Only fit for a tiny leprechaun, then, or a gnome?

[Cargo744]

All about $ and ff points

[GAFA]

My guess is the Ejet will be doing more flights to regional QLD and Emerald would be a good start.

[Goat Whisperer]

"My guess is the Ejet will be doing more flights to regional QLD and Emerald would be a good start"

OR.. Virgin counter QF's Alliance F100s with DJ Alliance F100s.
It's a mad world!

[JESUS.SAVES]

ATR about 8 million less to procure. Far lower fuel burn. Slower, yet over a short leg, it's not an issue.

Operators word wide now prefer ATR.

And to the 6'4 silly billy who just can't get comfy in the ATR, but is really comfy in a dash, shags, at 6'3 I find it hard to get comfy in an emirates 380 business seat.

I think VB are here to stay in the QLD regional market, the qf gouge is over I hope.

I forgive u all

[Flyingblind]

As to your dismissive, condescending, smug post about my inability to find a comfortable spot on the ATR I say Virgin should be worried.

They are the people offering a commercial package against the incumbents and if Virgin look at the size of passengers embarking on the frames you will no doubt note that quite a few are a bit outside the ICAO 77KG 4 FOOT tall cookie cutter pop out that the ATR72 - 500 seems designed for.

Last Thursday I travelled the SYD - CBR route I caught the Dash 8 to SYD then caught the Coach back, whilst twice as long time wise it had more room and cost my employer 15% of a turboprop ticket.

Cant get comfortable in Business you silly Billy? two weeks ago I flew back from Indonesia in Business and the space, comfort level was incredible.

Now where's that high speed rail everyone keeps talking about?

[muffman]

Re the difference between the ATR and Q400, I don't find much comfort difference as pax. The 400 feels like a much bigger aeroplane than the ATR for some reason, which is nice. No economy class seat is going to be super comfortable for long so the speed of the Q400 helps out with that.

I think the operator sees even more benefit from the higher speed than the punters. Shaving 10-20 min off every sector compared to the ATR adds up to a lot of extra utilisation per airframe day. The APU on the Dash seems to help with quicker turn around times too.

[ranmar850]

As SLF, jumped for joy when Q entered the WA market, I am a twice -fortnightly flyer Per-GET. Couldn't get off the Skywest F50 quick enough. Cut at least 15 minutes off a short sector, new aircraft, comfort levels quite acceptable, and, of course, murdered the old F50 in all aspects .Then put up with 5 months of absolutely appalling on-time performance. Initial thoughts were----new operation, give it some time to bed in. But it went on and on; I can dismiss the "Perth Airport factors" as not their fault, but, when you only have two of type in the state, both flying, and one goes down, you are in the s**t.
So I am back on Skywest, and guess what? I can do the same route, for the same price on an F100, even quicker, and more comfortably. So, curently, all my airmiles are on F100's--apart from the one airframe with rock-hard seats(can never remeber the rego) , comfortable flying with plenty of legroom. Do the Alliance F100's have the same seat pitch as Skywest's ?

[noclue]

Virgin should be cleaning up!?
Ticket prices outbound from Brisbane
$210 with bags, or you can save a whole $2, and pay $198 without checked bags on the ATR
or
$340 "flexi saver" or you could choose to pay $717 for a fully flexible fare on the dash.
I was able to find a "red e deal" on the dash of $102 but that is for Emerald to Brisbane at 3pm on Sunday the 13th May.
(for the nit pickers-prices were listed on webjet Saturday the 5th, for travel Sunday 6th/13th May)


The rumour I've heard is that Virgin isn't able/willing to send the E-jet to Emerald-somthing to do with the bump/slope of the runway?.. any one know the facts there??..

On a side note, does anyone know if Virgin are considering operations to Moranbah?? A big new terminal is due to open there June/July, currently dash 8 fares are consistent around $700 one way...

[FlareHighLandLong]

Are the 72-600s online yet? Anyone been for a fly on one? I understand that there is a significant effort to improve feel and comfort.

Interesting comment about APUs, I thought the hotel mode setup would be faster?

[Aimpoint]

There's a bump/slope at Emerald?

[GAFA]

The bump/slope at Hervey Bay hasn't stopped the Ejet and the 737 from operating there.

[noclue]

Runway 06 slopes down hill to the 24 threshold from about halfway along the runway. In fact sitting on the 06 threshold, you can't see much past the windsock-let alone the opposite ends' threshold.

I wouldn't have thought it would be a problem either, just asking as I was told it was a reason the E-jet wasn't there (yet)?

[stgeorge2035]

Moranbah is a closed shop, BMA own and operate it. They contractually only allow QFLINK to operate......

[b55]

noclue
Moranbah runway is apparently owned by the mining company. Yes, bigger ramp and bigger terminal but, NO talk as yet to make it open to anyone else or bigger for jets. It's making so much BIG MONEY for Qantas I could only imagine that over that business lunch at that 5 star restaurant Qantas has given enough "incentives" to keep the runway for themselves.

[Tangan]

DC9, F100......it is probably time you tried something from the current millennium...

[Going Boeing]

F100......it is probably time you tried something from the current millennium...

I suspect that they are trying to stretch the life of the F100's until the "C" series become available. The "C" series looks the most obvious aircraft to fill this role with significantly lower DOCs than current technology aircraft. The biggest "unknown" is how they will handle some of the more austere strips that the Fokkers have always excelled at.

[Fred Gassit]

C series being sold at 58 to 70 million each better have very good performance. The difference in acquisition cost buys a hell of a lot of fuel.

[alangirvan]

Difference between ATR and a Dash 8? For me,as a passenger in NZ - I fly a route from Dunedin via CHC to Nelson that sees me changing from an ATR to a Dash 8 Q300. So I do see the difference. The seats feel about the same - it is the ankle room. The Dash 8 fuselage curves in at ankle level, so the person in the window seat will notice that. The ATR sidewall goes straight down. (This would be whether you are in a Q300 or Q400.)

On NZ routes, the Q300 and the ATR have the same time shown in the timetable. Some routes north of CHC to Hamilton or Tauranga, or Dunedin to Wellington would have a small advantage if Q400s were used.

Would be nice to have some Alliance Fokker 100s in NZ.

[alangirvan]

If you are going to have low utilisation planes, surely Fokker 100s are ideal. How many hours a month would you use a C series, to get your money back.

If the people in Europe who want to do a NG Fokker 100 with new engines - that might be an interesting plane. Or just stick the new engines on existing frames.

[jarden]

Those poor Alliance pilots are going to have to double check who they are flying for before making any PAsYES....Good morning ladies and gentlemen this is your captain speaking.
Thankyou for flying with us on this Alliance F100 jet operated for Qantas woops I mean Virgin Australia flight....He He

[Going Boeing]

C series being sold at 58 to 70 million each better have very good performance. The difference in acquisition cost buys a hell of a lot of fuel.

I totally agree, Fred, but fuel isn't the only cost . As aircraft age, each successive Heavy maintenance check gets more expensive until eventually it's cheaper to purchase new aircraft.

The Fokker is such a perfect niche aircraft that is very hard to replace with newer fuel efficient aircraft.

[falconx]

Imagine 3 F100's sitting on the tarmac in Emerald one being a FIFO charter of alliances own and the other two being RPT for virgin and qantas.

[noclue]

You mean 2 parked on the Tarmac, the third holding on the runway waiting for a parking spot, meanwhile toll express is inbound from thangool :ugh:

[Going Nowhere]

Will the F100 fit on both bays at the same time with enough room to taxi behind?

[bddbism]

They're all going back to brissie, passengers should just put their money in a box on the way out the gate and pick any plane. Can't we all just get along?:D

[Shed Dog Tosser]

C series

The Tooth Fairy just rang, apparently he was at SEXPO with Batman and Robin, they over heard someone say that the C series have been ordered and the first airframe arrives in DEC 2012. It's a done deal, whoever takes the lowest wage will fly it.

Do you guys really still swallow that old line........................

[De_flieger]

I dont think 1 F100 will fit on the bay with room to taxi behind! Ask the Virgin guys who were holding airborne overhead the field for 15 minutes or so this morning in the ATR about tarmac congestion. It sounded like they had to wait until another operator had boarded and departed before they were able to land. I hear this sort of thing is becoming more common. Now imagine waiting while 3 times as many people board up, with less room to move on the tarmac. 2 turboprops means a full apron, so I will be very interested to see what happens if the F100 goes in there.

[Holding at]

The F100 overall dimensions are not that different to the Q400.
F100 - Length 35.5, Wingspan 28.1
Q400 - Length 32.8, Wingspan 28.4

Provided the Fokker parks on the northern bay it shouldn't cause any issues. Besides, if they all leave BNE at the same time, the Fokker will be half way home, and the Q400 getting airborne before the ATR makes its inbound call.

[falconx]

Time will tell

[noclue]

Slight delay I hear-still waiting on some sort of approval to be able operate the jet to emerald city.

[Fuel-Off]

[QUOTE] still waiting on some sort of approval to be able operate the jet to emerald city. [/
QUOTE]

I've seen them operate into Emerald on Charter runs numerous times...why would they need approval now?:confused:

Fuel-Off :ok:

[GAFA]

And in the Flight West days they operated the F28 ( and perhaps the F100) there.

[jarden]

F100 flights due to start on 4 June:
Alongside the introduction of 19 F100 jet services, QantasLink will also add four extra flights between Brisbane and Emerald taking the total number of return services on the route to 45 per week.
About Qantas - Media Room - Media Releases - QantasLink jets into Emerald and expands services across Queensland (http://www.qantas.com.au/travel/airlines/media-releases/may-2012/5395/global/en)

That's a hell of a lot of new seats just to Emerald.

[megle2]

When there are no available bays

Seems the -

Qlink 400's hold on the runway until one becomes available
Emerald ( yesterday )

Fokker 100's at Groote hold over head until one is available ( Wednesday )

Where does it say that the runway is a suitable place to park
What happens if somebody else arrives who do not require one of the 2 bays
ie RFDS ect

Seems odd

[Fuel-Off]

Megle, you might find that that's it not just Qlink that holds on the runway until a bay is spare...so don't go pointing fingers at just one operator :=

Fuel-Off :ok:

[megle2]

Who's pointing a finger, your a bit touchy

These are the ones I heard in my travels this week
If there are others ad them on

I've never regarded the runway as a temporary parking lot

[BackdoorBandit]

Simple, use the cross strip

[Capn Bloggs]

Where does it say that the runway is a suitable place to park
What happens if somebody else arrives who do not require one of the 2 bays
ie RFDS ect

Not an uncommon event in the real boom state either; it does raise the issue of being "surprised" by not having what you thought was an unencumbered runway to land on. Mandatory Alternates, anyone? :oh:

[falconx]

Cross strip dont think so! Cant even hold a metro, alternate yes, rocky

[b55]

Has anyone been prevented from landing because of a Qlink waiting on the runway 06/24 at EML?
The Emerald Shire Council is reaping the money benefits of a/c movements and more people in Emerald but not keeping up with the airport infrastructure (more parking ramp space).
Sounds just like BNE airport. Holding 20-30 minutes sometimes to land there even with cavok. BAC happy to build a muti-multi million dollar carpark though.
A Pilot In Command is legally responsible for the safety of the flight. Sitting on the ground rather than circling in uncontrolled airspace sounds a safer choice to me.

[AviatoR21]

Has anyone considered the ramifications if either aircraft breakdown on the bay just like one Q400 did last Friday??

[BackdoorBandit]

I would have thought that anything bigger than a Metro would require a bay (i.e. holding in the air or on the main runway), and anything smaller would be able to use the cross strip.

So we are really only concerned about THE Metro, and certainly not any of the PA31's getting about.

If I were that Metro Pilot and had nowhere to go, then I would have reason to be pissed.

But to keep an ATR or bigger in the air with 60+ POB, just so a lighty Pilot can feel warm and fuzzy landing on the main runway, is not a good arguement.

If there is some sort of fuel emergency, the a/c occupying the runway can simply get airbourne.

[megle2]

BDB
There are plenty of other lighties that require more than is available on the cross runway ie most business jets, charter King Air 350, police 1900 and so on

[noclue]

Well its the 4th of June - How did it go??

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Sounds just like BNE airport.
Apron congestion is not the reason for traffic holding into BNE. In fact 8 new DOM bays and 2 INTL bays scheduled for completion later this year. Only one runway (effectively) and too many acft wanting to use it at the same time is the problem. Second runway is coming but is not something that can be built overnight. Carparks may not be seen as necessary, but they are. They also are relatively cheap and quick to build and they pay for themselves quickly, unlike RWY's TWY's Aprons etc, and are not such political footballs. Taxiing/manoeuvering acft need a lot of room, which means a lot of extra bitumen, for maybe not much extra gain. Unfortunately, everything these days has to have a reasonable ROI. Nothing gets up that would be just "nice to have". Airlines all want more facilities, but don't want to pay for any.

[b55]

Brisbane Airport Corporation is like the Emerald Council because they are not willing to invest in their airport's infrastructure to keep up, let alone stay slightly ahead of, the public demand for that service that they are in the business of supplying, an airport not a shopping mall and carpark .

"too many airplanes wanting to use one runway..."????!!!!! Exactly right.
A second runway only when it suits the BAC's profit needs. Exactly right.

People don't come to the airport primarily to park their car and buy a hamburger and shop. They come to the airport to get on an airplane. BUT WAIT!!, KEEP the people waiting longer and longer in the terminal waiting for their late a/c to arrive because of one runway, and presto a captive market...cars parked for longer times, buy a book to read with a glass of wine or perhaps a coffee or two with that box of delish donuts.
From this pilot's point of view airports that don't provide the needed infrasturcture for it's primary responsibility, its purpose in being, are compromising the safety of the traveling public. Emerald needs to get building the needed ramp space ASAP and BAC needs to build the second parallel runway ASAP. Its a SAFETY THING AND THEY ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR THAT TOO.

[noclue]

Re Brisbane:
2020 is a long time to wait for a runway that is needed today.
What will be needed in 2020?

[BPA]

At least they have a date for a new runway, unlike SYD where by 2020 they will still be talking about a 2nd airport.

[Fieldmouse]

FUNDING SECURED FOR APRON EXTENSION PROJECT – EMERALD AIRPORT

Aviation Projects is pleased to have assisted Central Highlands Regional Council in securing funding for the Emerald Airport Apron Extension Project under Round 2 of the Regional Development Australia Fund grants program. The comprehensive submission prepared by Aviation Projects was one of eight successful applications out of a total of 87 projects in Queensland that progressed past the Expression of Interest stage.




So its coming.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Brisbane Airport Corporation is like the Emerald Council because they are not willing to invest in their airport's infrastructure to keep up

1.3 Billion for the 2nd runway and 7 years to construct. How about you pay the interest on that loan?
Like it or not, airports are a business nowadays. Just like airlines. If the numbers don't add up, it doesn't get done.


From this pilot's point of view airports that don't provide the needed infrasturcture for it's primary responsibility, its purpose in being, are compromising the safety of the traveling public

From my point of view, a pilot who knowingly operates into an airport that doesn't have the level of infrastucture that he believes is necessary for the safety of his passengers is compromising their safety far more.

[travelator]

Perhaps all the airlines should start charging fuel costs incurred due to holding/sequencing back to BAC. If airports want to be businesses then they need to be financially responsible when they fail at producing the purchased product.

Not having a second runway is costly. Right now it is costing the airlines (without whom the airport shops and carparks would be empty).

[Tidbinbilla]

Back on topic, please. This is about EMERALD, not Brisbane. :)

[b55]

You are exactly right. The Pilot In Command is ALWAYS held responsible for the safety of the flight. Australian pilots are doing a dam good job of it despite the infrasturcture providers. Corporations know this and rely on it to put profit before safety on their priority list. I don't expect ANY assistance from BAC on the matter of safety, only the bare minimum of their legal responsibility as an airport. And that is exactly what we pilots are getting from them. Thanks alot. Next time YOU fly think about it, we do every day.
p.s. this applys to Emerald too.

[Fieldmouse]

Back in the good old days, an airline (and there were only 2 really) would go to the department and say - "We'd like to introduce this aircraft into Australia, we'd like to fly it here and here.... at these frequencies". What would follow would be a detailed look at impacts on infrastructure and the economics of the deal, whereupon the department would usually say no, or occasionally, yes, but not until we extend this one, widen this one, and change this apron.

The department understood that airports are fixed assets and aeroplanes are not. Investment, particularly in regional airports, is not a popular use of ratepayers money, or taxpayers money back in the day.

New aprons, runways and terminals can be built for an airline that decides 12 months later to up sticks and move to another route. The aeroplane keeps making money but the airport suddenly can't service the loan.

Emerald, like many others, has been caught out by the speed of growth which has been stagnant for the previous 30 years. Often, what used to be a common user apron is now off limits to all but screened services, meaning yet more infrastructure needs to be built because of a minister's whim.

A department of aviation would have had oversight of all this, but of course we don't have one do we.

[falconx]

well how has it been since QQ took over the QF services?