Bmi prefer BFS

[gul dukat]

Bmi have just had the first diversions from the city to BFS due to weather."Worst windshear I have experienced ....passengers not enjoying it .." go around, a trip to the Magee hold and then to an airport with a CHOICE of runways! ho hum !Keep it lit!! :)
(joined later I am told by the EMA and ABZ/CWL bral)
:eek: :eek:

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]

[keepitlit]

They are.
:D oh it was fun to day closing turn wind 180/60 kts at 1000ft bumpy as expected and still got stopped well before A2 at max landing weight.

Rgds K.I.L. :D

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: keepitlit ]

[dik dastardly]

Better get used to it. Standard December BHD weather. Believe the pencil jet had another bash at it too.

[controller friendly]

What a surprise, the usual suspects on the same ol thread!
I hate to say it but as I'm a woman, I just have to :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I Told You So :cool: :cool:
It was only a matter of time but then again, what would I know?!?
The friendly one :p

[higher]

how many 320s got into BHD today ???? first sign of winter weather and its of to BFS we go what a surprise :D :D :D ;)

[go_around]

Look on the bright side - at least Antrim Intl has plenty of parking space these days! ;)

[higher]

i also heard a wisper bmi will soon be operating a late night flight into BFS 2310 and an early flight out :)

[Jacksman]

BHD is the domain of the 146 and regional jets with reversers, sadly BHD in the winter is rather unforgiving and the Jungle jet and the Airbus must feel sadly rather uncomfortable.

Despite keeping BHD going for so many years BE have had to suffer the indignity of being shoved to the side to welcome the folks from BFS,it reflects badly on the short-sighted greedy BHD management.

[Dudley]

I witnessed 2 Go-arounds today in BHD. A BE 146 just landed, after what looked like a bumpy approach. The landing seemed all right. Then about 10 minutes later, a Jungle Jet (145) went around from quiet a high altitude... Maybe 400 or 500 ft. They went straight to BFS (too scared?). Then the Airbus came in, and I have to say it looked preety scary.

The aircraft was shaken all over the place on the last bit of the approach, and then on short final it got very dodgy and the crew decided to go-around a few feet from the RW. I have to say it looked dangerous, and they diverted straight to BFS.

I don't know everything that happened today in BHD, but it is interesting to notice that 2 BMI aircrafts went around when most other aircrafts landed happily. The CRJ can also be a bit interesting to land in those conditions... and as far as I know, none diverted to BFS...

But anyway, safer is better... ;) ;) ;)

[ 03 December 2001: Message edited by: Dudley ]

[Cpt Nil Further]

The weather was bad, but not that bad. At worst the wind was 30 degrees off the runway with gusts of 40 knots and 25 knots of positive shear. Wait to you see what it does February/March when it is so rough even the autopilot trips out. The only real worry at BHD is the wet runway and no head wind scenario, then the fun begins. I watched several airbus landings yesterday and thought the crews coped admirably but I will never criticize any crew for diverting, if you are NOT happy, throw it away.

[ 04 December 2001: Message edited by: Cpt Nil Further ]

[keepitlit]

Nil,
nice to see some possitve postings in among the slagging.
Oh and for the rest of the superhero's I hear that the european space agency is recruiting!,After all if you know how the airbus handles having not even flown it you must be in with a chance.

bmi werent the only company to divert.
;)

Rgds K.I.L.

[Flying Force]

KeepitLit, I agree with you. No point slagging of decent people who care mostly about safety. It is a golden rule in aviation... If you are not happy with anything during an approach, go-around and walk away from it. Many pilots killed themselves (and others) because they were just too obsesed about their objective to land.

My intructor was always telling me : "If you are on the runway and not happy about anything, stop if you can, it is better than finishing in the trees. If you are not happy about anything during an approach go-around, and walk back home in one piece."

Safety is primary in aviation. No room for superheros !!!

[nitefiter]

I cant believe what im reading on here so called professional pilots slagging each other off about going around,you should all know better than that,GROW UP.
Remember its better to be "still in the air, than still in the ground"!!
:mad:

[ 05 December 2001: Message edited by: nitefiter ]

[go_around]

So there were a few weather diversions - so what?
Welcome to the winter, I`m sure there will probably be a few more in the months to come - I think you will find it works both ways, when EGAA was fogged out and EGAC was 30km plus I seem to recall seeing Easyjet sitting on the ramp. Does this mean they prefer Belfast City??
As to the management jibe, I have worked for both sets of management and I can assure you the City team is the lesser of two evils by a long way! :rolleyes:

[aviaraptor]

"22" Sorry for being a bit dull but what has the management of either airport got to do with diversions?

Seems to me the pilots elected to take the safe(r) option.

All "pressonitis" does is get people killed.

I believe if I wasn't happy to make the approach for whatever reason, the last things that would go through my mind is company profit or which management team is running which airport. Quite frankly all I'm looking for is a piece of clear concrete/tarmac (pehaps with a CAT 3 ILS), competent air traffic (which we seem to get in NI) and a well trained ARFS.

I think the bmi pilots who diverted probably thought that too and no one should criticise the PIC for having the balls to divert.

[go_around]

Aviaraptor - I was simply responding to Jackmans "shortsighted greedy" comments, sorry for wandering off course.
I don`t think anyone in their right mind would expect a pilot to land somewhere where circumstances were beyond his/the aircrafts or both capabilities, should that be EGAC or any other airfield. :)

[FL245]

Reading this thread has made me quite angry.

Dudley -
Then about 10 minutes later, a Jungle Jet (145) went around from quiet a high altitude... Maybe 400 or 500 ft. They went straight to BFS (too scared?). Then the Airbus came in, and I have to say it looked preety scary.

There are many reasons why a go-around is carried out. There is nothing special about a go-around, it is a normal procedure. What looked scarey?

Do you fly for an airline? Your post seems to sugguest not.

Any crew, for whatever airline, flying whatever aircraft are professionals. Safety is paramount.

but it is interesting to notice that 2 BMI aircrafts went around when most other aircrafts landed happily.

There is nothing wrong with making an approach and that ending up in a go around. It means nothing other than the crew elected not to land. Their reason is not to be questioned. YOU are not sitting there in that seat making that decision.

As for aircraft performance, this is not a 'suck it and see' idea. Performance is worked out for different conditions, weights and conditions.

[controller friendly]

22
No-one in their right mind would possibly question a pilots decision to divert.
The original point of this thread really carries on from threads from August/September time. There was alot of discussion about the feasability(?) of the airbus on an 1829m runway. While it was accepted that 80% of the time it would have no problem, weather had to be considered.
As one who was at that time told I didn't know what I was talking about,well, it appears I just might! :rolleyes:

[Deeko01]

I really can't undersand what the big deal is about operating these aicraft into the city, I mean Aberdeen's runway is 1829 metres for example and reguarly handle Airbuses, B757, MD83 so what's the problem and having worked there for a while I certainly dont see any problem with it.

I dunno if people are just so used to seeing bigger aircraft go into BFS and only seeing 146's go in there or maybe its jealousy I really dont know. Must say I agree with FL245's comments tho.

[dik dastardly]

It's not the field length that's the problem there, after all the bus is a very popular charter machine and operates into airfields of similar size across Europe and beyond. It's more to do with the weather around the place eg frequent windshear and more importantly the awful runway state especially when wet. If BHD want to play in the big league then these problems should be addressed very quickly. Even the new terminal is falling apart and it's only open 6 months..the front doors don't open properly and there's metal falling off the roof. Now the staff are leaving in droves. BE and BRAL have been paying the bills there for years. Can you blame them for being a little pissed off when the airport appear to shun them in favour of another operator? Not enough staff, not enough tugs, not enough interest!

[TS Hauler]

Costs and Safety

In the "good old days" - JEA paid a king's ransom to BCA for access as did BRAL. Figures being quoted were somewhere between £15 and £18 per dep pax. Gill paid around £6 per dep pax.

I don't know what Midland are paying at BCA now but I bet it's none of the above. Like him or loathe him, Mikey Bish has run a tight ship. He has survived where others failed. He didn't do this by being profligate with his expenses. He will have nailed the BCA boys to the floor and preserved his options elsewhere. The deal must have been good because for all the rhetoric of "it's dead easy on short runways" rubbish, size matters and I bet the bmi safety evaluation boys thought long and hard about the implcations before any move was made.

The question is however, is the deal so good that the benefits outweigh the risks? It must be.

However, notwithstanding the economics on the blustery day in question someone else was in the chair and said "I don't do windshear". Good on yer, mate.

[Capt PPRuNe]

First I would like to reiterate that this is primarily a professional pilots forum. Whilst readers and contributers from all walks of life on issues connected to our profession are welcome I advise anyone who tries to contribute and makes statements such as the one from 'Dudley' where they try to sound authorative but obviously have nothing to do with the operation of an airliner that they are not welcome.

Spotters who watch a/c trying to land at BHD in adverse weather conditions and then make immature comments such as "did they go around and divert because they were scared" or words to that effect are not welcome especially as they cause so much dissent by making others who wouldn't say such stupid things assume that it is another pilot passing judgement. No professional pilot that I know would make such a crass and ignorant remark and only goes to show that the red writing at the bottom of this and every page has to be noted.

Second, I have started a new forum for issues dealing with airports and routes and this thread is being moved there as will be any new ones that are promarily to do with subjects such as the one for this thread.

[Dudley]

All right, I have been slagged off big time with my comments. But let me explain a bit more clearly what I meant...

First, none was my intention to criticize any decision to go-around. It is a Pilot's decision, and there is nothing wrong with it. Nowhere in my last posting I implied any un-professionalism from the crews concerned. As Controller Friendly pinpointed it,
- following all the threads about bmi moving to BHD,
- and the RW state,
- and the weather conditions which are sometimes encountered in this airport...
That some days might be more difficult for certain aircraft types than others, particularly if the crews are not familiar with the place. Maybe, the way I expressed it was a bit sarcastic, but that was my point.

Second, about the way I described the events and the vocabulary I used, once again I didn't try to slag off the crews, but tried to depict weather conditions which were challenging. I think on that one I was misunderstood. I agree that the vocabulary I used was maybe inappropriate on a forum read by all sorts of people, but once again, none was my intention to imply that the crews involved were not professional in their decisions to go-around and divert. It was some challenging weather conditions, but within limits of most aircrafts operated at this airport. Hence, not many diversions this particular day. Anybody who would have seen the airbus being ill-treated by the wind on short final, would have thought "wow", and the decision of the crew seemed to be very appropriate.

So once again, for those who felt offended by my comments, I would like to apologize, and in the future I'll try to avoid using certain words inappropriate on a professional pilot forum to make my points clearer.

(edited for spelling)

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Dudley ]

[keepitlit]

Dud
As for you comments on inexperenced crews working out of BHD,I would like to know what you think the requirment levels are.

Rgds K.I.L.
:rolleyes:

[Dudley]

Sorry KIL, but on my previous answer I haven't written anywhere "inexperenced crews working out of BHD", so your point is ?

:D

[ 06 December 2001: Message edited by: Dudley ]

[keepitlit]

Dud,
Thanks,but Ive started to give up on it all as it wont make any difference to me come 23rd Jan

Rgds K.I.L. :eek:

[gul dukat]

K.I.L. said it before ...but will say it again ...hope something good turns up!CF and I will buy you a beer!!.

[Dudley]

What's happening on the 23rd of Jan ?

[controller friendly]

Dud
Something not very nice is happening to a lot of bmi guys on the 23rd Jan. :(
But the 13th Dec, well that will be a much better day altogether. :D Gul & myself will be showing KIL the joys of toffee vodka, silly coloured drinks & how many bottles of bud i can get down my..... :p
Well that remains to be seen!!
See y'all then, if you're brave enough :D

[dik dastardly]

Did someone mention toffee vodka?
Private bash or can anyone join the crack?

[controller friendly]

Two of the BFS ATC watches are out for their Christmas parties.Everyone welcome, Robinsons from about 8-8.30, thereafter, who knows :cool: :cool:

[Standard Noise]

Stop whining the lot of you, a couple of go arounds does not a bad airport make. Anyway, I remember days last winter when we lost more than 3 and/or had more than a few diversions from Muckamore Intl.
The Bishop signed up because Uncle Albert was screwing him over in favour of Sleezy and Go, what did you expect? I feel sorry for the few decent guys/gals at Muckamore who don't begrudge us good clearances and proper handovers just because we took Uncle Albert's Christmas bonus away!
It is a bit childish that a 321 has to level off at 3A because people like Gul have a large bag of fries on their shoulder about the whole thing, grow up!
PS Controller Friendly, try and lose your temper a bit more often and keep the rugrats quiet, they're disturbing my sleep!

Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[Standard Noise]

And another thing, Dik, could you define "frequent windshear" for me. I can only remember 3 or 4 instances in the last few months where windshear has been reported. On the other hand however, since the wx encountered at BHD usually comes from the Northwest, does that also make it standard Muckamore Intl. wx, or has Muckamore shifted recently? It is unusual to say the least, for BHD to have 35kt winds from the SSE.
As for the idiotic comment about an inch of water on the runway (whoever came up with that drivel), someone out there obviously has a problem with his/her perception of depth cos we measure the depth at regular intervals for safety resons rather than the fun of seeing the ATSA getting drenched!

Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[controller friendly]

Standard
No need to get personal about the whole thing :( As most peopleknow who we are, i don't think it's fair you having a go, as you have not ided yourself, mind you as one union rep to another, get you facts right first!!
For your info a standard clearance as per the AA Mats2 is 3A, if you get better than that then it's a bonus.
You also state the wrong MD as having the difference of opinion with bmi :rolleyes:
As for loosing my temper, what happened was over a non-operational matter as you well know, from my point of view it was no big deal, so let's keep the less trivial matters in context and talk about the real issues, like beer? :p

[Dudley]

CF, how was the 13th of december Christmas party ? Any news ?

[Standard Noise]

Sorry CF nothing like a good moan to purge the system, or is that a good.....
As for standard clearances, that may be so, but is it not incumbant on us to carry out our duties to the best of our abilities, rather than do as little as possible to get the job done. I just hate to see a big bird level off because someone is only willing to offer a minimum service (circumstances permitting of course). Another concern is the tendancy for some of your colleagues to drop their traffic to 3A south of Bangor, knowing something is ready/nearly ready to leap off 04, very frustrating as you well know. Does a 737 really need to be @3A over Bangor?How are we supposed to protect our missed app's in these circumstances? Answers on a postcard to......
As for Uncle Albert & co, sorry, couldn't remember the name of his predecessor, however, MD's are MD's - the names change, the job remains the same. On the subject of beer, "can't get enough of that wonderful Duff!" as my hero would say, but I was on earlys last week and couldn't make it, another time perhaps.

[go_around]

Surely you`re not implying some AA controllers are dropping traffic through the Belfast City CTA over Ards without co-ordination :eek: :eek:
You`ll be telling me next you can`t get the Box for two Gazelles over the city at 3A ;)

[Standard Noise]

Perish the thought old bean, perish the thought. But let's not get this out of all proportion, I'm only talking about the few, not the many.


Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't! ;)

[gul dukat]

Hi Alistair..Hi Colin!! lets stick to standard procedures! 3a is all you can expect! The Box is to you with 2 aircraft at three!And under what circumstances would you expect me to delay MY traffic (already in the air and flying)for the potential departure off 04?? ! :D :D

[ 18 December 2001: Message edited by: gul dukat ]

[go_around]

Gul - I think you are missing the point - surely the aim is not to delay ANY traffic no matter where they are coming from or going to. Is it to much to ask that when Muckamore is quiet ie. 0800 - 2100 that a higher level if available is given? No-one expects unrealistic clearances in a busy environment however Duffy 3A to a jet smacks of pettiness, especially when the first contact is 160 climb F110 and there is no conflicting traffic to be seen. :rolleyes:
Some AA controllers are very good and will only restrict when necessary - yet others seem to take great delight in trying to frustrate the expeditious departure of traffic from "them down the road" :(
Surely it makes for a better atmosphere at both units when there is a good working relationship between everyone as opposed to a few here and there? :)

[go_around]

BTW - I`m not part of the North Down mafia ;)

[dik dastardly]

sorry, SN, I was harking back to my several years experience of the wee airport. I didn't realise it had suddenly gone tropical there.

[Standard Noise]

Gul, I'm not saying you should delay your traffic, but if they get any lower when they're passing North Down you'll disturb your Uncle Jeffrey. And if you're talking about standard procedures, then why is it that you don't all seem to be singing off the same hymn sheet!
DD didn't you know about our palm trees and mango plantation then?

PS Gul, 22 failed the oral board for the North Down Mafia!


Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</p>

[keepitlit]

Guys girls guys,
Sorry I wasnt there on Thurs but I had to try and sucure a new contract to supply the morgage,hope you all had a good night!!!!!
Sorry FC but I didnt have any control on this one!!!!!!! :D

[controller friendly]

Dud,KIL
A good night was had by all, from what I can remember. Lots of toffee vodka, I don't think anything too scandalous happened apart from the usual.
Numerous controllers from both airports were there and not a single punch was thrown, mind you, you'd never guess!
:confused: SN, I don't really think using names on this is a good idea. I think you may have placed yourself firmly at the top of the hitlist, makes a change from me though :rolleyes:

[dik dastardly]

K.I.L, any joy in the land of clotted cream?

[Standard Noise]

Since it's the season of goodwill to all men (and women of course.), join me in a little seasonal song, The 12 Days of Christmas. You might even recognise the tune :-

On the first day of Christmas Muckamore gave me, a piper cub at Ballinderry,
On the second day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
2 minibuses and a piper cub at Ballinderry,
On the third day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
3 mis-idents, 2 minibuses and a piper cub.....
On the fourth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
4 VFR Pumas, 3 mis-idents, 2 minibuses......
On the fifth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
5 DUFFY 3's, 4 VFR Pumas, 3 mis-idents......
On the sixth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
6 Jersey Dashes, 5 DUFFY 3's, 4 VFR Pumas......
On the seventh day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
7 dodgy estimates, 6 Jersey Dashes, 5 DUFFY 3's
On the eighth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
8 hours of grief, 7 dodgy estimates .......
On the ninth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
9 radar releases, 8 hours of grief......
On the tenth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me,
10 microlights, 9 radar releases, 8 hours of grief
On the eleventh day of Christmas Muckamore gave me
11 direct the island (hang on, hang on, that can't be right!), 10 microlights......
And on the twelfth day of Christmas Muckamore gave me (altogether now)
a 12 minute delay, 11 direct the island, 10 microlights, 9 radar releases, 8 hours of grief,
7 dodgy estimates, 6 Jersey Dashes, 5 DUFFY 3's,
4 VFR Pumas, 3 mis-idents, 2 minibuses
and a piper cub at Ballinderry.

I honestly don't know how we find the time to do this sort of thing, seeing as we're so busy these days. Ho hum!

Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!
<img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 22 December 2001: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</p>

[controller friendly]

Estimates my sweet have nothing to do with us.
What about causing go-arounds with the red arrows, now there's a topic.. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[Standard Noise]

Yeah, but I bet not too many people could add that to their CV. Anyway, you know who, was sitting behind me for most of my six weeks at Muckamore, so it's no wonder I was a bit nervous.
Still, he's not all bad, like you CF, he's one of the many who will give us a clearance subject to traffic, not "cos it says we should do it exactly like this in the big book."

Anyway, Merry Christmas one and all.

And remember, sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't, no matter how much sherry granny gives you! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[gul dukat]

A foggy day in the docks !! and it seems they STILL prefer BFS!!! :)

[gul dukat]

Bik ..no.As for those "stupid level offs at 3000 feet".May I point you in the direction of the bfs calling scottish thread in ATC matters?.The whole TMA is about to be revamped as far as procedures are concerned.This is primarily for the benefit of Scottish and despite the BFS controllers finding difficulties with the system it WILL be implemented.You may look forward to a completely different regime and whilst we will do our best restictive climb and descent clearances may well become the norm .All complaints are to addressed to the watch manager in Scottish.As for delegating airspace to the docks that will not happen under these proposals .

[ 07 January 2002: Message edited by: gul dukat ]</p>

[go_around]

Gul - you are certainly full of surprises, so with the new procedures you will do your best but restrictive clearances may become the norm. What then is Duffy 3A to a jet in an empty TMA under the present circumstances?? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
You never did get around to explaining that from earlier - do you have a genuine operational reason for restricting City traffic or are you on a petty one man anti-city crusade for reasons best known to yourself <img src="frown.gif" border="0">

[Standard Noise]

Ho! Ho! Gul, you seem to have a great sense of humour, and the obvious ability to be a politician with the way you deftly avoided Bik's question.

It's also nice to see that someone other than BHD Atco's have found you out with the fabulous "Duffy 3's", so come on all you Smartie tube drivers, how do you feel knowing Muckamore gave out Duffy 3 when they could so easily (on many an occasion) issue a more expeditious clearance?
And why is it then Gul, that you are unable to climb outbound city traffic until after the ident(and inevitable level off), rather than give the a/c a procedural climb to an intermediate level while sorting out the ident?
22 - do you think we will see Gul parading up the bypass with his placards soon then, "kill the city" etc,etc. Or maybe he bought some lovely TBI shares several years ago thinking he was on a winner, ha, ha!

PS Gul, I forgot that Muckamore doesn't suffer fog, and I hear that Puff the magic dragon is the new Airport Director up there too!
Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't! <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</p>

[Standard Noise]

Bik, well said that man! But are the "significant number" voicing their opinions to the BHD management, via their own company management.

The BHD management were told over 2 years ago that SSR would be a great help, and we were informed that this would be looked into. However, when faced with a decision whether to keep the pvt healthcare scheme and year end bonuses, or pay for SSR to help cope with a busier environment (and give the Atco's an easier life of course!), we all know where the votes lie, don't we?

Still, Bombardier could always turn the tables and offer TBI tuppence h'apenny for their gravel pit at Muckamore.

PS The BHD management read this, let's hope they take note!!!!!!
:) :) :)

Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[ 12 January 2002: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</p>