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tony draper
2nd May 2012, 23:00
Seems a strange verdict for this country,is it possible for a Coroner to arrive at a Lawfully Killed verdict?as we no longer hang folks so that is out but could a verdict of 'Lawfully Killed' be arrived at if a Police Officer or Soldier shot dead a terrorist about to do his thing within our own borders?
Not trying to start scuffle just genuinely curious.
:confused:

bingofuel
2nd May 2012, 23:06
Simple answer, Yes.

tony draper
2nd May 2012, 23:09
Hmmm, right, thanks Mr Bingo,one did not know that.:)

B Fraser
2nd May 2012, 23:29
This whole affair is fishier than an anchovy's chuff. The poor chap not only took a number of memory sticks with him when he zipped himself into a bag in the bath while turning the central heating up in August without leaving any trace of his struggle ? MI6 then failed to disclose this after ignoring his absence for a whole week ? As they say in Glasgow,,,,,, "aye right" unless it's a very clever suicide. If the unfortunate chap did indeed die at his own hand, for who's benefit was the elaborate deception ? Most peculiar.

Sprogget
2nd May 2012, 23:33
MI6 said there had been no cover up by the secret services. Anyone else spot the aching irony in that statement?

tony draper
2nd May 2012, 23:38
I would have thought if a Intelligence Service wanted to make you a unperson you would just disappear,they would not leave the evidence lying about to be found and puzzled over.
:uhoh:

tony draper
2nd May 2012, 23:45
Coroners seem to be a law unto themselves, we have one up here well past his sell by date who refuses to budge.
:uhoh:

B Fraser
2nd May 2012, 23:46
The unspoken question is "which intelligence service ?".

There is always the chance that had this been a self-service job, this is exactly the speculation he intended.

tony draper
2nd May 2012, 23:53
A bit convoluted, had they wanted to imply that they would have kept it simple like a David Carradine job.
Wonder if anyone gave thought to the bag being just transport and the deed was done elsewhere,we have to assume someone did.
:uhoh:

Back Pressure
3rd May 2012, 07:01
Makes me think of the Two Ronnies sketch about the Arab who was stabbed in the back in an alley:

"The Coroner, Mr. Cohen, said it was the worst case of suicide he had ever seen"

stuckgear
3rd May 2012, 08:27
A bit convoluted, had they wanted to imply that they would have kept it simple like a David Carradine job.
Wonder if anyone gave thought to the bag being just transport and the deed was done elsewhere,we have to assume someone did.
http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gif

'demised' elsewhere then transported back to his own gaff ? more likely was packed as a take-away, flat thoughly cleaned and for what ever reason removal of the luggage couldnt occur, so heating was turned up to aid decomp. and hope for the best.

i would bet the bag and its contents were destined for mother thames.

UniFoxOs
3rd May 2012, 09:32
In answer to Tony's original question, (or to extend Bingo's answer with an example), YES THANKFULLY (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/1415373/Burglar-lawfully-killed-by-homeowner.html) there is a bit of sense left in the world.

UFO

teeteringhead
3rd May 2012, 09:55
What gets me (pedant mode on!) is the frequent mention that "a third party must have been involved".

Surely they mean a second party, or simply "someone else" ...... :confused:

Gareth Williams = 1st party

Killer = 2nd party

... or I am being dull??????

The SSK
3rd May 2012, 10:09
I suppose the bag is the second party

I absolutely agree. In my job I am always coming up against the phrase 'third party' and I am constantly asking 'who is the second party?' Grrr

RJM
3rd May 2012, 10:22
SSK, as a Runyonesque Character, it is a surprise that you should be uncertain about 'parties':

And you cannot tell by the way a party looks or how he lives in this town, if he has any scratch, because many a party who is around in automobiles, and wearing good clothes, and chucking quite a swell is nothing but a phonus bolonus and does not have any real scratch whatever. - Damon Runyon

A third party is obviously a party who turns up in addition to two parties (yourself and another party) who are already in attendance. A fourth party is yet another, and so on.

green granite
3rd May 2012, 11:33
Third Party

Someone not directly involved in a transaction. A third entity in the Seller (first party) and Customer (second party) relationship. A Seller may employ a third party to perform specific services to augment the value of a product. For example, a manufacturer may employ a third party to pack and distribute a product. A computer manufacturer may augment their product with software from a third-party supplier.
someone only incidentally or tangentially connected to an incident or dispute; someone other than the principals; a bystander or independent witness.

Ancient Observer
3rd May 2012, 15:34
GG
er, does that mean you are agreeing or disagreeing with teetering?

If someone else was in the room when the guy went in the bag, I doubt that they were simply a "bystander"

I'm with teetering on this. It's another daft word/phrase used by lawyers to complicate things.

What do you call 10,000 New York lawyers 20,000 feet below the surface in the Atlantic?

A start.

vulcanised
3rd May 2012, 15:38
The main thing that has struck me about this story is - why all the media interest?

tony draper
3rd May 2012, 16:32
Because murder is so common place now even a local one doesn't make page one of the local rag,it has to have something else juicy attached to it,sex greed celebrity ect for the news media to show any real interest.
Crime is just a another branch of showbiz now.
:uhoh:

barry lloyd
3rd May 2012, 16:53
The main thing that has struck me about this story is - why all the media interest?

1) Because he was a spy - or at least that's what the media called him to add some spice to the story. Hardly in the James Bond mould, since if his principal occupation was as a cryptographer in GCHQ, I imagine he sat in a windowless room all day.
2) Because the manner of his death was unusual, to say the least.
3) Because the police were involved, and as soon as that happened, the incident became a matter of public knowledge.
4) Because such stories sell newspapers/advertising/etc.

Overall, though, I have to agree with Mr Draper's comments.

Seems like it was a professional job, though - just like Jill Dando, whose killer has never been found...:hmm:

Effluent Man
3rd May 2012, 17:02
He wasn't a spy,he was a codebreaker.So a clever pen pusher.It seems pretty straightforward to me.He had 20 grands of ladies clothes including a big selection of kinky boots,shoes and wigs.

Clearly the 3rd (2nd) party was in on the game and,as these things sometimes do it went wrong.He could have had a dicky ticker or was deprived of oxygen for too long.When said party discovered what had occurred he (almost cetainly a he) did a bunk.Strange to put the lock on though as it just raised suspicions.Probably panicked.

Davaar
3rd May 2012, 17:18
Note to Mariner draper. I do not know the law in England, but as I recall over the years the action you have in mind is or was known in Scotland as "justifiable homicide", to cover events of, say, self-defence.

There is, or was at one time, a subtlety in English law that contemplated what we might call "allowing to diel".

Thus, if you were out fishing or whatever with a mate, grabbed him by the neck, hefted him over the side, and held him under until he drowned, then that was murder.

If, however, he fell over the side without any assistance from you and you could have dived in or otherwise attempted to save him, but refrained, then it was not. You were off free. This was covered in near-Biblical verse as:

"Thou shalt not kill!
.......... But needst not strive,
Officiously to keep alive".

I am not sure if that is still so.

OFSO
3rd May 2012, 17:49
He had 20 grands of ladies clothes including a big selection of kinky boots,shoes and wigs.

I believe, Effluent, it would be more strictly true to say that these items were found to be in his possession after his death. I also believe that were you privileged to examine the storage facilities of certain intelligence and military intelligence agencies, you would find no shortage of items with which to dress a crime scene. Needless to say, the crime scene also includes the electronic environment of the deceased, such as his bank account and any receipts which may be found.

If an expert is carrying out the dressing of the crime scene, you wouldn't know black from white, up from down, or suicide from murder.

Rossian
3rd May 2012, 17:53
....it would appear, Mr Davaar, that the inquest into the shooting dead of an IRA man in 1990 by the SAS decided that it "was justified".

So perhaps the classification of "justifiable homicide" extends beyond Scotland's fair shores.

The Ancient Mariner

Ancient Observer
3rd May 2012, 17:57
One suspects that the muddying of the waters will continue for many years.
I am half-way through my next literary sensation -

"The role of North Face in 100s of recent deaths"

Effluent Man
3rd May 2012, 18:55
OFSO, That pre supposes that .MI6 (or another agency) wanted to murder him and then chose this convoluted method that was guaranteed to bring about maximum media attention.Why not just shoot/poison/drown him without all the attendent speculation?

tony draper
3rd May 2012, 19:00
They should have hired the Russians,they seem to be able to undertake wet work in this country with impunity at the mo.
:uhoh:

Effluent Man
3rd May 2012, 19:13
Or the Bulgarians with the old tried and tested poison brolly.

shalo
3rd May 2012, 21:11
If, however, he fell over the side without any assistance from you and you could have dived in or otherwise attempted to save him, but refrained, then it was not. You were off free.

Here in France the legal situation should the above arrive would be summed up with charges being pressed for "Non assistance person en danger". That could be translated as not helping someone who's life is in danger.

Not sure what the sentence is but you would certainly be found guilty!! One of the few French laws that I actually wish was seen more elsewhere.

Effluent Man
3rd May 2012, 21:25
Well the rejoinder to that would be a quite simple "I can't swim" and nobody could really contradict that.You can't ask people to risk their lives if they choose not to.

tony draper
3rd May 2012, 21:38
Wasn't there a case recently like that? I think it was commented on right here,some members of the emergency services refused to wade out into a lake or river to rescue someone in trouble because they did not have the right equipment with them?I think the chap drowned.
:uhoh:

shalo
3rd May 2012, 22:03
I do seem to remember that case Mr D.... and a few others along the same lines. Personally I find it :mad: disgusting, but that might just be how I was brought up. These days it seems easier to turn a blind eye for many people, after all it's not like you know the person is it? :yuk::yuk::yuk:

Until the day when you or one of your loved one's need a hand from a stranger and they look the other way.

tony draper
3rd May 2012, 22:22
Way of the world now, involve yourself and if the Law dont get you the lawyers will,safer to just walk away or shut the curtains.
:uhoh:

Champagne Anyone?
4th May 2012, 05:41
Didn't the head spook at MI6 recently advertise for a new bag man?





Hat.... Coat.....:E:E

cwatters
4th May 2012, 08:13
The women's clothing was unworn and he had/was taking a course in fashion design.

Hydromet
4th May 2012, 10:33
Surely, with such a collection of fashionable women's clothing at hand, he wouldn't have been seen dead in a plain old bag.

tony draper
4th May 2012, 10:48
The clip of a rather large bloke tryin to get himself into the bag seemed a bit of a pointless exercise though I noted he did manage at the finish,from the clips the victim looked a rather slim cove,they should have got someone like Penn and Teller to go over how it could have been done and a much slimmer bloke to try it on.
:uhoh:

Davaar
4th May 2012, 10:56
One of the few French laws that I actually wish was seen more elsewhere.



Ummm!

Sir W. S. Gilbert, of Gilbert and Sullivan fame, died of a heart attack right after his effort to rescue a woman from drowning in an ornamental lake. He was in his mid-70s at the time.

Would you have an age limit on prosecutions?

Or a weight limit?

Or a multipe-sclerosis limit?

Or a recently out-of-hospital limit?

Or a really-poor swimmer limit?

Or a severe heart ailment limit?

Or any other limit of which we can all readily conceive?

I see lots of legal work here.

Tone
4th May 2012, 12:54
It seems he was only collecting the clothes because of an interest in fashion. I wonder what size the shoes were.

Effluent Man
4th May 2012, 18:31
That was asked at the inquest.They were size 7,which coincidentally was the size he took.

MadsDad
4th May 2012, 20:13
Womens size 7 or Mens size 7? (or even, I suppose, kids size 7?). They're all different.

G-CPTN
4th May 2012, 20:23
I think it was established that the shoes (and the clothing) were intended for use by the deceased.

An interesting facet is that this information was leaked to the media very early in the investigation.

January 2011:- Murdered spook Gareth Williams was a cross dresser | The Sun |News (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3112102/Murdered-spook-Gareth-Williams-was-a-cross-dresser.html)