British European to BFS?

[dik dastardly]

Apparently the Big Cheese of BE was seen in talks with Belfast International this week. Could he be planning a shift of operation up the road to the Big Airport? or just using it as a bargaining tool with the City?

[higher]

yes i can confim that the big cheese was talkin to the mananging director of belfast international airport earlier this week if the move goes ahead this would be a disaster for the city airport (ha ha ha)! and could just save bfs from turing into a go kart track!

[Jobs-a-Goodun]

Personally, I can't see it happening. BE have invested far too much money in BHD to up sticks now and move to BFS. The city airport is ideal for the type of passengers carried by BE, this itself demonstrated by the recent Short Haul Business Travel Award.

In my opinion, this has been done to shoot a very clear message across the bow of BHD, who have welcomed Bmi with open arms at the expense of BE causing operational difficulties for the airline which effectively built the city airport into what it is today...

It just might make them think carefully before they lose Northern Irelands biggest carrier.

[dik dastardly]

if that was the case would they not have sent a fleet manager/ flt ops person rather than the boss. Wouldn't have thought ATC was his subject.

[Standard Noise]

If only Mikey Bish lobbied for the same thing, we might get control of the Eastern TMA and give all you smartie tube drivers an even better service than we do at the moment! We are far more flexible in opp. direction operations and we know what the pilots want, in short we are the only ones prepared to go the extra mile to save our operators time, track mileage and ultimately money.

. .Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[go_around]

Lets hope BHD management have not taken BEE for granted. Its not too long ago that BFS were assuming that Midland would never move and we all know what happened there!. .I wonder what sort of deal BFS have offered, its got to be good, I hear they are desperate for movements.

[aviaraptor]

Amazing.

Every time somone posts a thread about BHD/BFS routes etc. The air traffic brigade jump on the band wagon about which ATSU is better than the other.

As a user of both, I have to say it actually depends on the controller on the day and whatever pressures they may be under. On the whole both are equalay as good. However, like the argument over one or two airports - perhaps it should be over one or two ATSUs.

Now, whilst MB or JF might not be interested in the day to day activities of ATC, old MB as Chairman of the airline Group with NATS would I'm sure love to cut costs or get a small contribution from Bombardier for ATC Services.

As for BFS requiring traffic at any cost I'm not convinced. If it were the case then MOL and the flying harp would be delighted to operate ex EGAA and that really would knock a few tea cups over in the Big House on the Hill.

[Standard Noise]

Aviaraptor, I think the lack of oxygen may be getting to you as you seem to have mis-read my post. What I was getting at was we at the City are far more flexible and efficient when dealing with our traffic, not Muckamore. Conversely they are better when it comes to their traffic and that would not change if say, the City had control of the TMA. There are some very good Atcos at Muckamore, just as there are some who are not so good, but that not my point.. .If we were given direct handovers from the Scots rather than getting a/c "second hand" as it were, we would be in a position to give our arr/dep a better service.. .As I suspect that you work for our newest customer. .you will probably not have been privy to our opposite direction operations for example, something which is popular with our other equally valued customers. I suggest that before you bang on about the "ATC bandwagon", you pay a little more attention to the post you are reading!

. .Sleeping's permitted (but not advisable if you work for Bmi), dribbling isn't!

[aviaraptor]

Dear Standard

I didn't mis-read this thread or indeed your post. My comment was a simple one. I will restate it.

Every time someone mentions anything to do with NI Airops, we get you, 22-in-use and CF all debating TMA ATC procedures.

. .Quite frankly, whilst they are important, they are not the be all and end all of life as we know it. Only a few weeks ago we had a thread about a windshear divert from BHD to BFS and guess what it turned into a "my radar's bigger than yours..." argument.

I don't think I'm suffering from a lack of oxygen, more that you should come into the daylight and take your eyes off the tube. BTW I am NOT slagging off either unit.

Can't we post something more juicier, perhaps that the BMI deal is so good Bombardier built airport with MB in mind. Unfortunately, the boys in Montreal thought they owned Aldergrove which is why they thought the runway was adequate, they had a cross wind runway, airbridges and serviceable fire trucks. Only when Mikey Bish complained did the guys at Dorval say, "Harbour whadya mean, Harbour?"

BTW I do dribble but rarely fall asleep at the wheel.

[go_around]

So where do I sign for this ATC brigade thing then? :) :) . .Aviaraptor, are atcos not allowed to comment on issues that directly relate to the airfield they work at?? I hear on the grapevine that some Muckamore Intl atcos have been told to wind their necks in a little - to the point where some of them have even had to reregister on pprune. <img src="eek.gif" border="0"> . .Sometimes a forum such as this is the only chance there is to debate and clarify issues.. .Incidentally I hear also Bombardier were going to buy Muckamore but they didn`t want to break a $100 dollar note :)

[aviaraptor]

"22" We are a sensitive bunch. But then, I guess you guys have more time on your hands to make posts to Pprune. Wish I did. Today is unusual - ah ... to be 8 miles final to the Harbour - back soon.

As to the C$100 note, I guess that comes in about £44.64. Almost enough for a CRJ700, a Dash-8- 400, a landing fee at BFS for the AN70 (for the aforesaid 700 fuse), a bunch of Firetrucks with change over for a slap-up meal at Mrs Miggins' pie shop on the Shankill Road.

Keep up the good work guys but I'm sorry the NATS guys at Aldergrove can't take part in the thread. They always make sense to me.

[Standard Noise]

Bik - yeah, the North Down brigade and boy can we mix it with the oldies on pension day!

As for saving money, I hear that MB reckons he will be saving a very subtantial amount each year by being at City and at the end of the day, it's a healthy bottom line that funds his opera company!. .I also hear that Bmi business has increased since the move down to our "useless, one short runway, terrible wx airfield" (just paraphrasing)mmmm, must be something to do with customer satisfaction. Despite what we think of our respective airfields, the punters seem to love the Bmi-City operation. BTW Aviaraptor, is it true that Bmi are struggling to make money out of the BFS-LHR route now, just as the world's favourite airline had found out???. .The other question that nobody has addressed is, why would BE put themselves in direct competition with the Easy/Go combine, after being run ragged by them on several routes - BRS/STN, especially when the punters seem to like using City. And in the same vein, why did Brit. Reg move lock stock to the City last year if Muckamore is so popular?. .There appears to be more to this than meets the eye...

22 it's £250 pa to join the brigade, oh yes and you have to actually live in North Down. So that's you out then! :) :)

Sleeping's permitted (especially if you work at City), dribbling still isn't!

[Crotalus]

Perhaps SN you have answered your own question, city may be too successful.Are BE now the poor relation at the harbour?I believe that their aircrew are upset at the apparent poor service, (hard to get to the crew room with Bmi passengers milling around ,congested apron,delayed departures with knock on effects to flights further down route),they are recieving after the arrival of Bmi,to say nothing of the poor service I received when waiting for my bags from LHR. THEY SEEMED TO BE IN TRANSIT LONGER THAN THE FLIGHT.Perhaps when Mr French looks at HIS bottom line HE will conclude that the city was a good idea which has grown too quickly? and that moving to Bfs may have many financial benefits? Moreover with the exception of going head to head with GOFly on the Bristol route I am unaware of ANY other conflict of interest.Maybe I am wrong.No doubt you will let me know.

[CaptAirProx]

Standard Noise, as much as I agree with you, the BE service between BHD and BRS has not run ragged. In fact the loads are quite good and stable at the moment. BE did feel the pinch for a month but things have been back to normal for now.

[Standard Noise]

Crotalus, the other route which would have clashed was to Stansted, but BE gave this up before GO even started, they didn't even put up a fight! Why?. .As for apron congestion, perhaps you could let me know which successful airports you know of where the apron is empty??? Try not to confuse busy and sometimes full with congested (in the sense that congested is a hindrance). Part of the reason why punters use busy airports is exactly for that reason, because they are busy and busy airports offer the punter more choice. If not, then why was Stansted shunned by punters for many years in favour of LHR/LGW?. .Delayed flights are more a product of busy UK airspace as a whole, and not a busy City airport. The "slots" which delay flights are issued by a central flow management unit, NOT by the controllers at a particular airport.

Capt. Airprox - I apologise if I have caused offence (rare for me, apologising, that is.) but we in ATC are not always privy to loads, and had been told that the GO BRS-BFS route had been damaging BE loads certainly at the outset, if this has now change, I am happy to stand corrected.

Let's not forgot however, BE has been successful at the City, just as much as the City has been successful with BE. It works both ways!

. .Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[CaptAirProx]

Standard, no offence taken. Just don't want Go thinking they have it all their way!

I believe the delays we're experiencing at the CIty are due to many redundancies on the ground crew and an overall low moral there. Hardly a day goes by with no tug, push back crew etc b4 start and then no one on return to meet you on stand. . .When is the City apron going to be re-surfaced or drained. It is appalling that those puddles have been allowed to go un-noticed.

I think as always Air Traffic are nothing but true professionals at the city. Thanks guys, at least you understand each aircrafts performance charateristics and plan accordingly.

[Standard Noise]

Capt, it is nice to be appreciated, thanks. Despite what some of the flying brotherhood think, we are as fair as we can be and have no favourites among the airlines.(Although a bottle of single malt can work wonders.....only joking)

As for Go, I have looked at prices several times, to BRS and STN for example and found them to be no cheaper than BE. The problem with BE is their marketing dept, something I have commented on before on other threads, they appear to be non- existant.(The mktg dept at Go doesn't appear much better besides a catchy but infuriating jingle on the radio)However, my wife has friends in Coventry who, when booking flights to Belfast, were told by the travel agent (a nationwide chain) that the only way to get here was BHX-BFS.. .BE marketing take note!

Some of the ground staff have been changed to part-time contracts, and therefore it may be that rostering is proving a problem(the ramp crews are a bit of a militant bunch at times and are apparently difficult to control). This probably explains the low morale.

Apron resurfacing mmm, theres a topic in itself, we heard on the grapevine that it would start in January (does rather beg the question why they didn't do it properly in the first place) but the argument is with the contractors I believe. The answer to this question is known, I'm sure, by only one person. Exactly who that person is, is as much your guess as mine, I'm afraid it's all a bit "Who shot JR?", you won't find out until the last moment.. .Oh the excitement of it all, I love a good mystery.

. .Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't! <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[ 12 February 2002: Message edited by: Standard Noise ]</p>

[controller friendly]

I'm not hiding from anyone, i just have a life and couldn't have been bothered lately!

Anyway a few things, Aviaraptor, I don't believe I have ever on this slagged off the professionalism of the bhd ATCO's. Having once been one myself I am well aware of the many pressures they are under.

BIK, well where do I start. First of all Wise Up!. .Secondly if any airspace is going anywhere the only place that will be is to Scottish. As they part paid for the SSR at bfs, they will get the benefits. And lastly I resent the many things you have said against the bfs ATCO's on these forums. There is a bigger picture which you are not always aware off, there has been a better working relationship between the two units building for quite a number of years now but unfortunately some of the many stupid things that certain individuals insist on writing here is eroding this. You are questioning the professionalism of the NATS ATCO's who at the end of the day are only doing a job. I have 2 propositions for you, 1 serious & 1 maybe not so! <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> Why don't you pay a visit to bfs atc & see what actually goes on.. .And as you constantly slag of our abilities, how about you letting us give you marks out of ten for your landings, that might even things up a bit! :) :) :)

[Crotalus]

Standard Noise,Thank you for your reply .I understand then that there are NO reasons other than the BFS-BRS conflict.As to why BE pulled off the STN route without firing a shot is a question you would need to address to them.. . As to my point about a busy apron I was suggesting(perhaps not clearly enough )that whilst the apron IS busy it would seem that carriers such as BE are finding it difficult to meet schedules (the BHD IOM and the consequent ONWARD routes for example)owing to the VOLUME of early morning traffic.This has of course been exacerbated by the arrival of the A320/321's of BMi.By that logic then should BE not attempt to improve their punctuality and balance sheet by moving to a LESS congested apron where they would be able to easily improve their punctuality rates and ipso facto their balance sheets bottom line.. .Also you may be able to assist with a query?How much longer will Bral be able to continue running their services to GLA and EDI?Surely the sheer number of passengers that EASYJET and Go-Fly take on a daily basis must be hurting? I know from personal experience that they(easy/go)are invariably more competitive in terms of price (and I must say I personally prefer a 737 to an ATP)I await your insight .. .Rgds Crotalus

[ 13 February 2002: Message edited by: Crotalus ]</p>

[go_around]

Crotalus, for someone who is just a "punter" you would appear to be more knowledgeable on City movements than most of the self loading cargo that passes through <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> I do not think BE are being unduly delayed (or any of the other resident airlines for that matter) by the volume of traffic on the ramp.. .If the airlines followed your theory and moved to an empty ramp ie. at Muckamore, then surely that in turn would become congested? They would then according to your theory again move back to the City and hey presto, a vicious circle has just been formed :) . .As far as the EDI/GLA routes perhaps BRAL are waiting to see how long it will take for Easy or Go to beat each other to death on that particular route, I don`t know the figures but the break even point on an ATP is surely lower than that of a 737 carrying lots of £10 fares <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Crotalus]

22 thank you .I am quite well informed although I am merely a punter .I think you will find that my observations are shared by more than a few BE pilots .(please read into that what you will!). .As to the break even point I think that if you are regularly transporting loads in the 100's that point arrives fairly quickly for a 737 .Never mind if BRAL do roll over you will have a little more space for the rest of the "punters" . .rgds . .Crotalus

[go_around]

Crotalus, you are obviously privy to some info that I am certainly not. To the best of my knowledge the majority of pilots are happy with the ATC service they receive, however I am not sure on their opinions on other aspects of handling - I hope they are making their views known to enable any wrongs to be put right, preferably sooner rather than later <img src="confused.gif" border="0"> . .Incidentally I wonder what the average time fom start-up to rolling is at other airfields, I would certainly like to think we have a fairly competitive edge on that <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

[Hogg]

Hi Guys, Yep have to say Im very happy with the atc service ive recieved in both airfields, having operated paxs flts into bhd, i found only the grnd handling abit slow, but didnt really mind as it let me have 2 smokes instead of one! :)

Only go into aldergrove now with freight so we not worried bout service or the lack of it.

Anyway im getting away from the original topic myself <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Hudson Bay]

Nothing wrong with ATC apart from them long winded airways instructions. That I can cope with. What I do find frustrating is the managements desire to make BMI happy and shaft British European in the process. I hope B.E. transfers to Aldergrove and makes a success of it. Remember B.E. has the UK's 10th richest family behind it.

[Standard Noise]

First of all, Hogg - thanks, it's nice to know not all the pilots are against us.. .Hudson thanks,I think!? But the "long winded clearances" you mention are a product of SRG paranoia, they seem to think that because we are non-state, we are unable to use small conise clearances without having level busts, I don't know, personally I can't follow their logic.. .I suggested "standard clearances" like the ones I used to use at Coventry, but there doesn't appear to be any will to change things here!. .Crotalus, as regards the early morning traffic, we have 10 deps in 35 mins with different dep times. Bmi only constitutes one of these and more often than not, it is delayed by late pax or slots, not the loaders. If anything, we can pushback more a/c due to the new apron layout. Delays after pushback ie while queuing for departure, are no different to those experienced at other airports at peak periods. Since Sept 2001 and the unfortunate demise of Gillair, be have added one extra route, to NCL. Therefore, using your logic, creating their own delays by congesting the apron themselves! mmm there's a thought!. .Airlines could always bring in their own handling agent rather than using BCA staff. Would it help, who knows? Not being knowledgeable about ground operations at Muckamore, I can only assume that BE would have to employ Servisair or Reeds, so why not do it now and save the hassle of moving up there? . .Bmi have come to the city and found they are saving considerable amounts of cash, they have also increased their pax numbers so I am told.. .This being the case, what makes you think that BE could move the other way and do the same thing? It would also put the BE LGW route in direct competition with the proposed Easy BFS-LGW route. Methinks BE would suffer badly on both that and the BRS route in the event of such a move.. .BRAL loads on GLA/EDI have picked up again, I believe and the ATPs are running more than half full on most flights from what I understand. The running costs on the ATP will be lower than the 737 so you might find that BRAL are making more profit per pax than Go. . .You mentioned previously that you fly with Bmi from City, but if it is so bad, why do you not use their BFS-LHR service while it still exists? Could it be that while it may take a few extra minutes to get your bags, ultimately it is a more convenient airport for you to use? Thus the reason why Bmi/Bral/BE operate from it, and why Easy & Go both approached the City, eager to operate from here before they were sent packing to Muckamore.

Oh what it is to be popular, convenient, easy to use, oh yes, and not surrounded by sheep!

[The Bard of Hell's Ditch]

Noisy,

as there is no longer a shuttle from LHR to BFS, a reduction of, what, 6-8 flights per day, maybe, and bmi are the only NI- LHR carrier now, are bmi carrying more pax due to relocation or because they are the only choice to LHR? Don't know, I'm only an outsider looking in.

Aviaraptor,

there does appear to be a bit of arhy-bargy between BFS & BHD as you say. Your posts seem well reasoned without going into the actual subject matter of the post. As an (apparent) fellow outsider, what are you're views on the likelihood of BE moving their operation to BFS?

[Crotalus]

Hello SN .Thank you once again for your insight.I agree that the city is convenient.I regret that the occasions on which I flew to it I suffered poor handling on the ground.That is the fact of it.As to atps and 737 break even point lets leave that to the accountants?.You say that you are an atco at city?I suggest then that you are scarcely qualified when it comes to matters regarding the advisability or otherwise of airlines moving to or from the airport at which you work. The principals in this matter do not include you.You seem to imply that BE could not suffer a head to head with Easy or Go!I wonder why?Surely competition is healthy and it would benefit the travelling public.Do you not think that BE could cut it? I hope not!.Ah well I must await your reply(if I ever have a query which you might be able to assist on I will post it until then I am afraid that the real clout here is with the balance sheet and the bottom line). .rgds Crotalus

[Standard Noise]

Crotalus,. .I have never proclaimed myself an expert in these matters, so your inference that I claim to be is somewhat misguided. These threads are opened for discussion to take place and opinions to be voiced. As for my opinion in this matter, then no, I don't think BE could survive in it's present form (ie a moderately successful regional airline in the brave new world of well marketed, rapidly growing low costs), if it were to move to Muckamore. That is my opinion and I may be either right or wrong, who knows, we will see in the coming months.. .BTW you still haven't said why you use the City to fly to LHR if you hate it quite so much?

Bard or Bill or whatever, I was referring to the fact that Bmi are apparently carrying more punters from City than they did at Muckamore, despite the fact that they also run services from BFS-LHR. If BFS-LHR is so popular with the punters, then why are these flights not full also. From what I understand from someone on the inside, quite a few of the BFS-LHR services are not troubled with SLF. Maybe you could share some of your insight with us, I know Crotalus would be most pleased.

Oh what it is still to be popular, oh yes, and not a muck spreader in sight! ho hum

[dik dastardly]

Well BFS-LHR must carry enough punters to warrant the extra services that BMI are about to announce.

[ 16 February 2002: Message edited by: dik dastardly ]</p>

[The Bard of Hell's Ditch]

Noisy,

I shall try not to ask you a question if it serves only to annoy you.

[controller friendly]

ZZZZZZZZzzzzzzzzz!!!!!

Must admit Standard, your posts are getting more boring, can you think of nothing better than slagging off NATS ATCO's and bfs in general?. . <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[Standard Noise]

CF - nope, it keeps me amused and serves to annoy the TBI, sorry NATS atco's at Easyjet Intl.. .As I seem to remember however, you and your colleagues enjoy a bit of City-bashing yourselves. Sauce for the goose etc etc

Bard, don't take it personally, but if you insist on asking questions, you've got to expect answers. If the answers aint to your liking, ask better questions.

Oh to be surrounded by all that peace and quiet!!. .Ho hum!

[controller friendly]

Be careful, you might just get what you wish for! <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0"> <img src="rolleyes.gif" border="0">

[dik dastardly]

With the return of BMI early and late services to LHR from BFS and two more possible EZY routes for summer I would hardly call BFS quiet.

[Standard Noise]

Promises, promises! <img src="smile.gif" border="0">

Oh dear Dik, you really haven't got the hang of it yet, have you dear boy. Rumour has it that the Welsh pie sellers are ready to announce a loss this year and the addition of a couple of easyjet runs will do little to pull it from the poo.

As for the original subject, Uncle Albert must be desperate if he's offering BE the deal I heard about. Planning to sell a lot of pies is he... :) :) :) :)

. .Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[dik dastardly]

TBI posting a loss eh? That'll put them in the same club as the rest of the industry or hadn't you noticed, SN? The occupants of the sinking ramp down at the wee airport are not exactly having a prosperous time either are they? How dare they not make money when operating from god's own chosen wee airport!!. .I hope the weather on your planet is significantly better than it is for the rest of us.

[Standard Noise]

That'll be the "wee profitable airport" then.

Sleeping's permitted, dribbling isn't!

[Hogg]

Lads!!!!, Having operated into both airports as a Pilot with both passengers and freight, i cant understand the slagging <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

Im going to close this topic coz i think too many posts are totally irrelevant.