Short Belfast-why?

[Proplinerman]

Can anyone please tell me why Short and the RAF went to what must have been tremendous expenditure and effort to produce an aircraft which had a production run of a mere ten? It was a good heavylifter, I think (I have no personal knowledge of it, tho I remember them when they were in service with the RAF and I saw Heavylift's aircraft when they were using them and it certainly has had a very long life, one still being used in Oz/the Far East today, I believe).

Another eg of a disastrous (commercially) British post-war aircraft type?

[RedhillPhil]

I got the impression that it was left hand and right hand not being connected. One lot issuing a requirement for an aircraft that the other lot had decided that there was no requirement for.
Other peple will come along soon who who's fact based knowledge is better.

[ATNotts]

Proplinerman

Though I'm too young to have been there at the time I guess it's down to "politics dear boy" and the perenial UK dilusions of grandeur.

[ICM]

No delusions of grandeur, nor right/left mixups - just the response to an Operational Requirement starting back in the 1950s, when the RAF AT fleet was in pretty poor shape, given that resource priority for several years had rightly gone to building up the V-Force. The history is laid out in considerable detail in 'Shorts Aircraft Since 1900' by C.H. Barnes.

By 1957 the Air Staff and Shorts had agreed to proceed with a project known as the Britannic, with development costs to be spread over 30 aircraft. Reductions in the Defence budget in 1958 quickly put paid to that plan - but the need for a strategic freighter remained, particularly at a time when there was a need to get missiles and related kit out to Australia for testing. (There are similarities here with the USAF's C-133 that performed very much like the Belfast, also designed very much with moving missiles around.) Eventually an order was placed in 1959 for the SC5/10, later named 'Belfast' - just 10 aircraft for the RAF, with a further 2 aircraft planned by the company for possible civil orders. Shorts tried hard with civvy operators, but no further orders were placed.

The company continued to look at other possibilities. A V/STOL variant with blown flaps etc was apparently proposed for the Beverley replacement OR that was won by the HS 681, cancelled in 1965 along with TSR2, by the first Wilson government. And discussions were held with Lockheed for a variant with the C-141 wings and T-tail, to be powered with 4 RR turbofans - and having flown both aircraft, I'm sure that's the useful airlifter we never had.

Nonetheless, whilst we had it, it was indeed a most useful aircraft for dealing with bulk or oversized loads. For example: a series of flights at close to max zero-fuel weight to move a mix of APCs and Abbott guns out to BAOR; tasking one Belfast for sqn ground equipment on deployments otherwise needing 2 Hercs; moving helos without dismantling the entire rotor head area. There's a Sea King or a Commando - I've forgotten which - inside this one (XR 371) at Shannon in July 1970, en-route to the States for testing:

http://i1213.photobucket.com/albums/cc463/Old141Nav/63daf47c.jpg

[Proplinerman]

Thanks very much for this comprehensive reply ICM. But it must still have been incredibly expensive, to develop a virtually brand new aircraft (apart from, I understand, some of the Britannia wing box) for so tiny a production run. Surely it would have been cheaper to buy ten C-133s? Tho that certainly wasn't an aircraft without problems, but one went on flying into the 21st century:

655 Anchorage 30-9-05 C133 full side on 1e | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/4979875750/)

And here, I think, is the one and only photograph I ever took of a Belfast-it's the one preserved (thank the lord) at Cosford:


ScanImage5 1024 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/6014342784/)

And the aircraft above is the same as the one in your photo ICM.

[ICM]

Proplinerman: You may well be correct and the book I quoted does not mention costs. There had, however, been a tie-in for several years between Shorts, Bristol and Canadair arising from the Britannia project and I get the impression that design was spread over a fairly long period, with no metal being cut until the RAF order was eventually placed. So the development costs may have been relatively low and well-spread. Where costs certainly appeared, measured in loss of capability, was once the aircraft began flight trials, culminating in the need for the 'fastback' conversion. OCU training stopped for a time and 53 Sqn never had more than 4 or 5 airframes at Brize for some 4 years. A most frustrating period, and I recall one trip not getting away for 3 days due to lack of spares. However, once airborne, it was a delight from a crew viewpoint - flight deck space galore (perhaps 15 in all there for the visual approach to Kai Tak on my Global), comfortable bunks, Minstrels' Gallery, good flight and nav systems. (The Nav station on the C-133 looked primitive, by comparison, I must say.) I think that 53 got all 10 aircraft by about 1972, by which time I was elsewhere, on a somewhat larger fleet.

[bingofuel]

Belfast: The Story of Short's Big Lifter by Molly O'LoughLin White is the book you want, to find out about the Belfast. She was a great enthusiast for the aircraft. It has been out of print for years bu still a few popup now and then.

[Tankertrashnav]

When the Belslow was new in service a tale went round that the captain of one bound for Changi from Gan ended a position report with the message "Captain and crew all well, no sign of scurvy as yet".

Probably apocryphal, but this was in the early days. Didn't they re-design the tail, or something, and stick another 25 knots or so on the cruising speed (the "fastback version referred to by ICM?). Someone no doubt knows the details.

I did a double take when I saw one at Schipol a few years back, but can't remember the name of the carrier.

[D120A]

The Belfast could take 2 Wessex 2s, 'spooned' side by side, provided they were on air transportation cradles and considerably broken down (e.g. tail rotor pylons, main rotor gearbox and head, main undercarriage legs, all removed). The blades and the removed components could be accommodated either side of the fuselages and on the rear ramp and there was room for enough groundcrew to rebuild the helicopters when they (eventually) arrived at the deployment base. We had a surprise operation sprung on us one night at Odiham in 1967 and got the 2 Wessexes airborne in the Belfast, from a cold start, in 6 hours. And that at a time when the air transportation cradle had only been trialled, not formally released for use.

I always thought the Belfast's weakness was the Tynes. Four Vanguard engines pulling an aircraft that size had to test the patience a bit, hence the 'scurvy' comment out of Gan heading East (a true story, and it didn't go down too well at HQTC Upavon, IIRC). But it was a good bulk lifter and would reach Akrotiri with 2 Wessex.

[longer ron]

I always thought that the Belslow was a useful a/c and I bet the RAF missed its capabilities.
Yes it could have done with more power,but that would have called for investment...something that this country and govmints have consistently failed at LOL

[Capt Chambo]

Proplinerman:-

one still being used in Oz/the Far East today, I believe).

I operate through Cairns from time to time. The old Heavylift Shorts Belfast is there with all logos painted over. It looks like it has been abandoned although it does have all it's engines on. It is presently parked at the north end of the western parking area.

It is visible on Google Earth, but it has been moved further north, out the way.

[oceancrosser]

In the early eighties a Fokker F27 was damaged on landing in the Libyan desert, the aircraft was dismantled, wings tail and stabs taken off, fuelage put onboard a Belfast and flown to Iceland, the Belfast went back to pickup the rest of the bits, and the Fokker was reassembled and repaired.

[Fris B. Fairing]

Thanks Proplinerman for starting another Belfast thread. With your permission it provides me with an opportunity to ask if any reader was involved in this event which came to my attention only yesterday.

In December 1974, a Belfast was tasked to recover Rapier test equipment from Woomera and return it to the UK. The return flight got as far as Darwin where the aeroplane went u/s and an engine change was required. This event is described in Molly O'Loughlin White's book (p.61) referred to earlier in this thread but the book does not identify the Belfast in question.

Just yesterday I learned that it was XR368 "Theseus". After ten days in Darwin, the aircraft departed on 23 December leaving behind the u/s Tyne (serial number 7527 - impressed?), 2 engine stands, 4 Belfast main wheels and a brake aligning spider! Two days later, on Christmas Day, Darwin was devastated by Cyclone Tracy. It seems that it wasn't until late February 75 that the MoD went looking for these items which had survived the cyclone and were eventually repatriated to the UK by means unknown.

Can any reader provide further details?

Rgds

[JW411]

Geoff Fentum and I picked up XR368 at Tengah when she finally came back from Darwin (we were stuck in Singapore for 11 days). We left Tengah for Gan on 20 December, 1974 then Gan to Masirah on 21 December and so on to Akrotiri on 22 December whereupon we climbed into the bunks and were back at Brize Norton on 23 December in time for Christmas.

The aircraft lost an engine on take-off at Darwin and during the course of the abandoned take-off, a bunch of tyres burst as well. Hope that helps.

[ZeBedie]

What about the one which had a heavy landing and was left with fuel leaks?

What happened? Did it ever fly again?

[bingofuel]

As this thread is collecting Belfast tales, I recall one told to me by someone lucky enough to fly them.

The RAF decided to do some research into crew fatigue and crossing time zones, so a Belfast, as I recall, was despatched on a westabout global with a couple of crews and a bunch of medics who were to observe how the crew coped. Of course the medics had to remain alert during all the flights so they resorted to medication to keep themselves awake and more pills to help them sleep at the end of each flight.
By the time the aircraft eventually returned to Brize the medics were so doped up they were virtually propping their eyes open with matchsticks as the disembarked the aircraft rattling with pills.

The crews, oh they just went for a few beers as normal!

Told to me by a Captain who once landed a Belfast at Brize and received a round of applause.... turning round he counted 19 people on the flight deck!

Quite an aircraft.

[feroxeng]

To go back to the original question. The Belfast was built to continue industry employment in Northern Ireland and like most other government funded projects was not subject to proper cost control. The design used an adapted Britannia wing which was attached at a reduced dihedral angle when it should have been anhedral. This meant the lateral control close to the stall was poor such that it couldn't get a civil ticket, although the military accepted the shortcoming, thus affecting civil sales. The govt cut the order from 30 to 10 and bought Hercules. The aircraft was civil certified by Marshalls 20 years later for Heavylift, using a stick pusher for stall recovery. Also, initially, the performance was 15% down due to Reynolds number effects round the rear fuselage (ie the wind tunnel predictions were optimistic), sorted by copying the Russians and fitting underfins. (Ironically the Hercules has the same problem, still unsorted). The Belfast was also WAT limited at ISA, sea level, which meant that for any temperature above standard day or anywhere above sea level you have to offload. Answer bigger engines, never fitted as not being available. Heavylift sorted this somewhat by stripping out vast quantities of excess internal structure and trims.
"No sign of scurvy" Not apocryphal, but an actual message sent back from 366 during the first route-proving trip to the Far East, circa 1966.
Shorts were going to do a jet version with look-alike C-141 wing.
Have you noticed that the A400 is Belfast sized but with a good wing on at the right angle and proper power. The Belfast was a fine aircraft that should have had a better chance.

[Proplinerman]

Thanks for all the replies. I'd love to hear further Belfast stories, so please keep them coming. Sad that the one in Oz is no longer flying.

"Four Vanguard engines on an aircraft the size of the Belfast:" well, yes, the engines always looked a bit inadequate in size for the sheer bulk of the aircraft (ditto the C-133 in my view too, interestingly). And my Ian Allan "Military aircraft of the world" from 1973 (price £1.95 for a-admittedly not very large-hardback book!) gives a max cruising speed of only 352 mph for the Belfast. Whereas my Ian Allan "Civil aircraft of the world," 1974 (£2.75, for same size of hardback book as the Mil version above-that's how bad inflation was in those days) gives a max cruising speed of 425 mph for the Vanguard.

The books also tell me that the Tynes on the Belfast were 5730eshp and the aircraft had a max gross weight of 230,000 lb; whereas the Vanguard had 5545ehp engines and a gross max weight of 183,500 lb. The figures speak for themselves and bear out what is said above.

[Double Hydco]

I did a double take when I saw one at Schipol a few years back, but can't remember the name of the carrier.

You mean one like this Tankertrashnav?

https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-1AODlmYktkM/T5PMDj9KYgI/AAAAAAAAA-I/GQDstK7hjEs/s720/x68.jpg

In the early eighties a Fokker F27 was damaged on landing in the Libyan desert, the aircraft was dismantled, wings tail and stabs taken off, fuelage put onboard a Belfast and flown to Iceland, the Belfast went back to pickup the rest of the bits, and the Fokker was reassembled and repaired.
I was lucky enough to fly the Belfast in it's civil incarnation. The Fokker recoveries were a reagular thing, with damaged F27, F50 & F28's being recovered from places such as Colombia & Libya, and returned to Fokker Services at Woensdrecht for repair.

[ICM]

OK then, a bit more. I seem to recall that the word on 53 Sqn circa 69/70 was that larger props had been intended - my head-on shot up above indicates there was certainly room for them - but Mr Barnes' book indicates that this was simply left as a possibility during the design stage, and that the option was effectively dropped when the 'fastback' mods recovered the performance shortfall.

That is not to say that all became sweetness and light. Belfast Navs became minor experts on parts of the ODM Vol 1 that their colleagues on the VC10, say, could largely ignore. (In my day, Navs from the Belfast OCU ran the RAF's Scheduled Performance course for pilots preparing for civil licences.) We spent much time between trips working up Regulated Take-Off Graphs for airfields and runways around the globe, to take account of Net Flight Path restrictions and Second Segment problems, particularly where ground temperatures were liable to be at ISA+15 or above. Evidence of how overall performance remained on the edge can be seen in the fact that Bahrain - Akrotiri, essentially an airways route, was accepted at the time as a valid Nav Route Check route. The two major issues I recall were, first, making net Safety Height on climb-out by the time one got to the mountains in Southern Iran, across the Gulf; and, later, dealing with a simulated three-engine driftdown and diversion once over Eastern Turkey. An entry in my Cat Card for 17 Jun 70 tells me I must have cracked it that day! (I only flew the fastback aircraft, doing the first or second OCU course once training was resumed in 1969, and I shudder to think how things had been beforehand.)

[tornadoken]

Harland & Wolff's “sturdy and ardent men” (Churchill, The Great War) had built 300xD.H.6, 600xAvro 504J/K/N, 1xHP 0/400 and 17xV/1500. Air Ministry appointed them 6/1936 to run an Agency Factory, and put Short Bros. in bed with them to teach and supervise (on Bristol Bombay and HP (Hampden) Hereford?! They soon moved to Sunderlands and Stirlings). Short & Harland was 60% Short Bros., 40% H&W. Modest local design capability. On 23/3/43 UK nationalised Short Bros, closed down Rochester Airport Works in 1946, Seaplane Works 7/48, inviting designers to move to Ulster. Short Bros. & Harland was then 18% H&W, 82% us.

Sydenham was greatly exhanced/modernised in Korean War expansion: it was not SB&H's fault that MoS' intentions for second sourcing were frustrated - Swift, Comet 2. They were one of 3 Canberra second-sources (sole source on PR.9), and, earlier, one of many erectors of aluminium pre-fab homes. Britannia was nominated, so Bristol bought 15.25% (H&W then 15.25%, we, 69.5%) to ensure oversight: 12xcivil, 18xRAF were built there, plus structure chunks for 5xRAF assembled at Filton.

In 1958 UK thought it needed to move Blue Streak (maybe Thor) around. Bristol came up with T.179B, a cube on Britannia wings. MoS invented a wholly-spurious key Requirement for Blind Landing as the excuse not to do the sensible thing - to lease USAF's Atlas-mover, C-133A. (now SC.5 Britannic, soon Belfast) was ordered 1960 with Smith's Cat.IIIA Autoland, to be design-led at Filton, who would ship wings to Sydenham. Saro was also empty so to encourage Westland to buy them, they were given rear fuselage and ramp. A run of 30 had been envisaged, but Blue Streak was chopped, 13/4/60, so 10 was a minimum to give some purpose introducing an oddity. SB&H bid it in 1960 with blown flaps, and again in 1964
as Britannic 6 with RB178 (RB211 precursor) on Lockheed C-141 wing.

A to Q is that the type was blatent make-work: better buying something than putting folk on the dole - Harland's aero and marine site was near-unique in staffing across Ulster's sectarian schism. All was politics, employment in a divided island. Just like assigning there 13 of the 14 RAF VC10 fuselages. Vickers-Armstrongs' MD Geo.Edwards saw the Minister and offered to pay the wages (not overheads) of everybody who would be occupied making them in Sydenham, and to make them at Weybridge...for less than the price MoA contemplated paying Shorts.

[brakedwell]

Pre GT Belfast days, I was called out to fly a Britannia non-stop from Brize to Bahrain with a Tyne engine for a Belfast which had lost an engine over Iran on it's way to Bahrain with a Tyne engine for a Belfast which had lost an engine after take-off en-route to Gan. The two broken Tynes, which were too heavy for a Belfast, were loaded onto our Brit overnight and we returned to Brize the next day - feeling very superior!

[Herod]

When exercise Bersatu Padu was planned in 1970, 72 Sqn was supposed to have ten Wessex at Changi. At one point, as I recall, we had two aircraft flying at Changi, two in a U/S Belfast at Gan, two in a U/S Belfast at Masirah, two in a U/S Belfast at Akrotiti and two in a U/S Belfast at Brize! Luckily, the Communist hordes didn't come down the Malay Peninsular (although what difference our total lift of 120 troops would have made, I don't know).

[oxenos]

I seem to recall a Belfast getting into trouble Gan - Singapore late '60s and ending up at ?Butterworth needing several engines. Can anyone enlarge on that?

[rolling20]

UWAS Circa 1982..A Belfast parked up somewhere.

Older , dashing , debonair QFI: Look at that bloody awful aeroplane!
Boss: (Growling) I did two tours on those!
Studs: Much sniggering etc...

[huntaluvva]

The Seaford sector, london Airways, (127.7? ), a warm Summer's evening after a hot day, some time in the Seventies.

RAF Belfast, Brize to Akrotiri, after unrestricted climb:

"London, Ascot 1234 is pleased to announce that we are at the FIR Boundary, levelling at Flight Level 150"

Reply: " Congratulations, contact Paris ...etc"

HL

[Double Hydco]

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-7uQlR-Ox96I/T5UeVm2ZqTI/AAAAAAAAA-U/5MSwJ6Yr1pU/s640/Apache.jpg

Here's a Belfast doing what she was best at, moving outsized, but relatively light loads long distances (in this case transporting an Apache from the UK to the US). She was perfect for the aerospace industry, shifting aero engines, fuselages, wings, helicopters, AOG parts, satellites and the like.

DH

[S'land]

With regard to the original question, I always understood that the UK was in a spot of financial bother at the time and needed a bail out from the IMF. In order to receive said cash the American Government made it a condition that we buy the Hercules. That meant that we were unable to buy any more Belfasts as well.

Does anyone know if there is any truth in this, or is it just anti IMF /USA propoganda?

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC there was a spot of bother in the Netherlands as a result of Lockheed sliding some dosh under the table.
What was surprising was the speed at which the TSR2 jigs were to be destroyed after the F111 purchase.

[treadigraph]

Talking of outsized loads, a Heavylift Belfast brought Doug Arnold's Liberator back to the UK from India in 1983 (?) - not sure if it was all in one go or if the fuselage and wings travelled separately. The Lib eventually moved to the US where it now flies regularly.

[Ridge Runner]

In order to receive said cash the American Government made it a condition that we buy the Hercules. That meant that we were unable to buy any more Belfasts as well.


and

What was surprising was the speed at which the TSR2 jigs were to be destroyed after the F111 purchase.

Ah, that "special" relationship thing again!!!!

RR

[ICM]

I think that the timelines are getting a little confused in all of this. The Belfast order was placed in 1960. The RAF C-130s were ordered as a result of the cancellation of the HS681 project in 1965. And the most significant IMF loan needed by the UK that I can recall happened in 1976 - there may have been others but none, I'm sure, that had a bearing on the acquisition of transport aircraft for the RAF.

[gopher01]

Any military freight transport aircraft that has a spiral staircase to the flight deck just has to have a certain something about it, when added to the Minstrels gallery for conducting the massed choirs down the back and a flight deck big enough for a ballroom,you can understand why they built so many Ocean liners in Belfast. The inability to operate the GPU until the G/E or engineer left the aircraft to open various intakes, outlets and access panels seemed to a bit of a dis-advantage but having only flown fro Brize to Fairford on one they appeared to be a gentlemans aeroplane! And no, it didn't take very long.

[Ron Cake]

In Sep 73 I climbed into XR 362 at Goose Bay for a ride back to Marham. ...got a balcony seat and had a very comfy ride. 20 years later I got aboard G HLFT at Gdansk for a ride to Stansted. .....made straight for the balcony -GONE!. I guess it was removed along with the refuelling probe to reduce weight. Pity, but all was not lost - we went up on the flight deck and bothered the flight engineer (there was no nav)

I remember the engineer spent a lot of time trying to bring one of the engines into 'synchronisation' - something to do with 'elimination' of an unwelcome resonance. I never quite understood what it was all about - can any take a guess?

[Double Hydco]

The "minstrels gallery" as it was called, was removed from G-HLFT, I think, to enable it to carry sea containers. The Gallery was still fitted to G-BEPS, as was the full sized galley, and the crew rest bunks down below. All in all, a most agreeable way to see the world..........

The APU had a life of its own, and would often spit flames during its alarming start sequence. As has been said, it couldn't be started inflight, thank heavens.

If I remember rightly, the flight deck heating control was in the cargo hold, and the cargo hold ones were in he cockpit?

DH

[tornadoken]

s'land: ICM is right. In 1964 Shorts puffed (RB178, precursor of) RB211 on C-141 wings on Belfast's cube. The reason we bought neither that nor more with Tyne was that by then we realised we had overbought our needs...by 10.

fed: TSR.2 jigs, like all detritus in cancellations, were disposed of asap because the contractor has better things to do with the space than to maintain junk safely, while charging us for the pleasure. Junk. See the TSR.2 Cosford RAF Museum; look at the open avionics bay. Shudder. MTBF would have been measured in minutes. 1957 steam was the basis of the design; by 1965 we were onway to k-bytes.

[Proplinerman]

More on the engines and performance of the Belfast versus the Cargomaster: the C-133, again according to my Ian Allan "Military aircraft of the world," 1973 edition, had four 7500 shp engines (P and W), a gross weight of 286,000 lb and-not surprisingly-a not very high max speed of only 359 mph. Another case of under-power, I think.

[S'land]

tornadoken / ICM
Thanks for the information. Shame to have to throw away one of my prejudices (the IMF).

[RudolphHucker]

I was an engine fitter on the Belfast 'Major' servicing team based at Abingdon in the early to mid seventies. I remember the aircraft was so big (or the hanger so small) that we had to fit a hydraulic jig to the nose wheel assembly and lift the nose of the aircraft to lower the tail sufficiently to get it into the hanger. At the completion of the Major, an air test was flown to set-up the engine bleed valves and it had to be flown with the cockpit escape hatch open to allow the cables which were bodge taped from each engine, along the wings, down the fuselage and into the cockpit. I was newly out of Brat school and assumed this was normal practice.
I'm not sure if memory serves correctly but I think there was a push at one point to get all ten aircraft airborne for a photo for Flight magazine or the RAF news. Can anyone confirm and if so can anyone post the picture?

[Steve Bond]

True, 53 Squadron did indeed get all ten in the air at the same time for a Christmas card photo (taken from a Britannia I believe). I was at Brize at the time and remember the huge engineering effort that went into getting the whole fleet serviceable, and although I do not have a copy of the photo, it was pretty awful as I recall.

[ICM]

I know that all 10 aircraft were flown together one day in late 1971. My impression is that this happened because, uniquely, the possibility of doing so arose, rather than as a Flight or RAF News photoshoot. I do not have a photo, but there is one in Jock Manson's 53 Squadron history, "United in Effort."

JW411 should be in a position to fill in all the blanks here in due course.

[JW411]

RadolphHucker;

As you say, you were straight out of Brat School (Halton) and I'm afraid that your memory is a little bit lacking.

Setting up the bleed valve on a RR Tyne engine was indeed a highly skilled job. The bleed valve was designed to lie dormant unless there was a sudden mechanical failure in either the LP section or the HP section in which case it would open to prevent a catastrophic failure. They were set up electronically by a specialist who stood on the ramp wearing a headset with a long lead going up to the engine with various wires disappearing into the aircraft (usually through the escape hatch). I believe the gentleman involved was listening in his headset to what were known as "clickers" and "clackers".

I carried out several air tests on Belfasts and I certainly do not recall getting airborne with wires hanging out of the escape hatch nor, for that matter, do I recall flying with a bloke hanging 12 feet below the engine hanging on to his head set.

Strange at it seems, this is a topic close to my heart. Apart from flying Belfasts on 53 Squadron, I was also CFI of the RAFGSA Gliding Club at Abingdon. One of my Assistant-Cat instructors was a splendid chap called Jed.S.

Now Jed was a Corporal during the week and his job was setting up the bleed valves on RR Tynes, as it so happens. Some genius at MOD decided to post Jed to the BBMF at Coltishall to work on the Lancaster. Jed knew absolutely nothing about RR Merlins or Lancasters and he did not want to go. We tried on the RAFGSA Mafia network to get his posting changed but to no avail.

Within a couple of months of his posting, 53 Squadron suffered about five LP5 failures. This came about when the bleed valve opened when it was not needed and this usually resulted in the 5th stage of the LP section being wrecked followed by serious damage to the rest of the engine.

The experts at Rolls-Royce informed us that such disasters would continue until we got someone who actually knew how to set up bleed valves properly.

I suppose it is to Jed's credit that the BBMF Lancaster is still flying.

So let us move on to the 10 Belfast formation flown on 23 December 1971.

Now some of you out there will remember that the original Belfasts were about 11% down on performance (in every respect) and that the problem was tracked down to the drag created by the design of the rear fuselage. Those aircraft were known as Belslows. About 5 Belslows were delivered. The rear end was then redesigned and that solved the problem. Those aircraft we called "Fast Backs" or "GTs". The Belslows were sent back to Short Brothers for modification.

The last Belslow to come back from Short Brothers after modification was XR364 which arrived on 53 Sqn on 03 November 1971. For years there had been a dream that it might be possible to get all 10 Belfasts airborne together. For the first time, 53 Sqn actually owned 10 Belfasts.

Two of the aircraft were on maintenance at Abingdon but it proved possible to get them sufficiently serviceable to fly just before Christmas so that they could join the other 8 aircraft which were scheduled to be back at Brize Norton from overseas.

The weather on 23 December was not particularly good with overcast cloud but all ten got airborne and formated above the main cloud deck. The photographs were taken from a Jet Provost from Little Rissington.

It has to be born in mind that none of the crews had had any chance to practice formation flying in a Belfast so it was a remarkable performance.

Why did 53 Sqn do it? Because it was possible.

So the whole production line was in formation for once and only. As we said at the end "They gave us ten, we flew ten and we gave them back ten".

I shall now try to remember how to post photographs on Prune.

[Nuuumannn]

I thought I might add my 2 pennies worth here. From what I've read and having talked to guys involved in the Blue Streak project in the late '50s, the original requirement that became the Belfast was for an airlifter that could carry the Blue Streak IRBM, which was cancelled in 1960. Engine tests for the rocket were done at Spadeadam, but actual flight tests were carried out (after the nuclear missile had been cancelled) from Lake Hart, Woomera, Australia as the first stage of the ELDO European satellite launcher. The Blue Streaks were shipped to Aussie, but I'd imagine that had they continued in service, they would have been flown to Aussie as much faster means of transporting them around.

I think the Shorts book mentions the Blue Streak in the chapter on the Belfast.

[JW411]

http://www.frpilot.com/Dad/10UP1.jpg

[Steve Bond]

Great shot, much better than the version that ended up on the Christmas card! Thanks a lot.

[chevvron]

I remember seeing photos of Spadeadam; it looked more like a launch site than just a test rig.
Engine testing continued at RPE Westcott up to the late '60s. A friend of mine in the ROC worked there and told us about them actually blowing up an engine!
My one Belfast flight was in '365 from Abingdon after an ATC wing parade. 165 ATC cadets running up and down brought frequent requests from the front end to stop moving about as it upset the trim, so myself and another senior NCO stationed ourselves at either end to control the flow of cadets to/from the few windows!

[Nuuumannn]

Cracking photo!

it looked more like a launch site than just a test rig.

I don't think Spadeadam was intended on being a launch site; as far as I'm aware it was only designed as a test facility for the assembled rocket before being sent to Woomera. The reason why Aussie was used is because if the rocket failed on launch during testing the debris would land harmlessly on kangaroos and other desert wildlife, not the occupants of the north of England and Scotland. As a weapon the Blue Streak was designed to be launched from underground silos.

[Brian 48nav]

Great photo' - which aircraft was our late mate Dave Carter in?

If I could have swung a posting onto the Belfast after my double-tour on Hercs I wouldn't have taken my 8yr option. The closest I got was when 53 hosted 30 (Hercs then at Fairford) at football late '70 - modesty prevents me from posting the score here!:D

[Evanelpus]

Great photo JW, thanks for sharing it with us.

[brakedwell]

I would love to hear the sound of forty Tynes.

[XN593]

Slight thread drift.
In my ATC Record of Service book - passenger flying log I have an entry for 3rd May 1970. Belfast XR365, AEF, 45 mins. And yes, there were few windows.
Sorry for the sad photographs taken on the day, they haven't kept well.
For the record it was 153 Slough Squadron

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o764/XN593/Abingdon1_zpsbfd0ff0d.jpg

http://i1342.photobucket.com/albums/o764/XN593/Abingdon2_zps7a1426cf.jpg

[WE992]

Nothing to be sorry about. I think its a great photo of a great aircraft! I have also been fortunate enough to fly in one even if it was owned by Heavylift.

[JW411]

Brian 48nav:

Dave didn't get on to the Belfast until about 1973. In fact, I also missed the great event by about 9 days. I didn't get to Brize until 01 January 1972.

[Blacksheep]

JW411, your Corporal Jed was hardly the only bod who could set up bleed valves. There were plenty more on LSS at Brize who could do it on a dark freezing cold nightshift.

I was sent on an engine change at Gan (364 I think? I have photos) and on completion we had to do all the settings. The Rolls Royce graphs in the MM went from minus 30C to plus 25C. The lowest temperature ever recorded at Gan was 27C during a tropical downpour about ten years earlier, so we had to interpolate the graphs. It took four days of doing the trim runs at 2am when it was coolest to get the trims right and despatch the aircraft. (It was on a max load, carrying depth charges to Singapore)

[Double Hydco]

I have also been fortunate enough to fly in one even if it was owned by Heavylift.

I may be a little biased in this regard, but nowt wrong with a Heavylift operated Belfast. Against all odds they gave the aircraft another 23 years of operational life, using a fraction of the resources available to the RAF. That bloody great H could be seen all over the globe, from Barranquilla to Brunei. ;)

DH

[Brian 48nav]

Yes, Having checked the date of the photo, I remember Dave was halfway through that awful tour as a Flt Cdr at Swinderby - his penance I guess for having had 2 tours at Changi on 48, one as a Co-pilot on Hastings and the second as a skipper on Hercs.

Back to the Belfast; one thing that has always puzzled me was why were experienced Argosy,Herc etc captains posted onto the squadron as co-pilots? I'd have thought that the 'route flying' only role of the Belfast was less demanding than the tactical and route roles of the Argosy,Hastings,Herc' etc.

[JW411]

That was the way it was. If you were posted from MRT to LRT in those days (Comet, VC-10, Britannia and Belfast) you did what was, in effect, a 6-year tour consisting of three years in the right seat and three years in the left.

The only exceptions were Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs who were being posted in to become flight commanders or squadron commanders.

I had already done 10 years on the Argosy (6 of them as a training captain) when I went on the Belfast but I didn't mind learning the new job in the right seat. Unlike civil aviation, there was no pay cut. We got paid by rank and not which seat we sat in.

[GAZIN]

RudolphHucker
I was an engine fitter on the Belfast 'Major' servicing team based at Abingdon in the early to mid seventies. I remember the aircraft was so big (or the hanger so small) that we had to fit a hydraulic jig to the nose wheel assembly and lift the nose of the aircraft to lower the tail sufficiently to get it into the hanger.

Ah yes, I seem to remember that the instructions on the side of the jig stated that when lifting the nose of the aircraft the tail bumper wheel must not touch the ground. Not only was it touching the ground in this picture but the tyres were deflated as well! SEN 1979.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/Jetmech_photos/img586H14web.jpg

[Brian 48nav]

Thanks Jock, but it does make you wonder why the RAF didn't do the same as the airlines (heaven forbid I hear their Airships cry!) and keep transport pilots as co-pilots for 2 or 3 tours, then when the time came to move into the LH seat keep them there forever.

Regards Brian

[Fareastdriver]

Brian 48nav

You couldn't do that. They wouldn't have enough 1st pilot hours to get their ATPL at their eight year option.

[bingofuel]

Of course there was a time when transport pilots came from the OCU as fully fledged Captains and went straight into the left hand seat of a Hastings and never served their time in the RHS.

[Herod]

So those were the ones who still had a full complement of fingers on their left hands, never having had the Eng use the sharp edge of a nav. ruler to "correct" the co's actions.

[brakedwell]

Of course there was a time when transport pilots came from the OCU as fully fledged Captains and went straight into the left hand seat of a Hastings and never served their time in the RHS.


When was that?

[bingofuel]

Berlin airlift era. Partly an experiment for some newly qualified pilots.

[brakedwell]

Must have been very short lived.

[bingofuel]

Brakedwell, you have a PM

[JW411]

bingofuel:

Could that be one of the reasons that the Hastings had such a high attrition rate?

[bingofuel]

Well, I cannot comment on that, I am just stating the information given to me first hand by one such person. As far as I know he did not damage one!

[brakedwell]

I don't think the Hastings safety record was any worse than other aircraft of that era, although metal fatigue in the elevator hinges did cause at least two fatal accidents. It was also a cow to land in cross winds. I spent two years as a second pilot on the Hastings and never carried out a single take-off or landing, but I did experience more than my fair share of frightening arrivals. IMHO it was bloody awful aeroplane!

[ICM]

Thinking back to the immediate postwar years, sheer necessity and the pressure of events must have played a part in driving straight-through conversions to the left seat. For example, all of Bomber Command's 4 Group was transferred to TC on 7 May 1945, as the war in Europe ended, in anticipation of a need to transport troops to the Far East - so Halifax pilots found themselves becoming Dakota pilots after a quick type/role conversion. Then in 1948 came another TC expansion to cope with the Berlin Airlift. When that was done, the transport role had to take a decided back seat as the RAF created its Canberra medium bomber force and, later, the V-Force. With a degree of 'stability' forced upon it, I imagine it then became feasible for Transport Command to insist on pilots doing co-pilot tours before graduating across to the other seat.

[brakedwell]

I imagine it then became feasible for Transport Command to insist on pilots doing co-pilot tours before graduating across to the other seat.


They started training Co-pilots on Hastings and Beverleys after the introduction of the Britannia. Second pilots were not qualified on type. For many years there was no way to progress. Second pilot hours were worth nothing. We had to do at least 50 P1 hours a year in a Chipmunk or Anson just to qualify for flyng pay. My two week Hastings course covered climatology, load sheets and how to operate the undercarriage and flaps - utterly soul destroying for a wannabe Hunter pilot, who's course was cancelled courtesy of Duncan Sandys.

[JW411]

Hastings Losses:

Just to reassure myself that my memory was not particularly defective, I have just done a quick check:

TG499 AAEE & RAE Pannier broke away and wrecked tailplane; crashed
at Beacon Hill, Wilts., 26.09.49

TG508 242 OCU Swung on landing; wingtip hit ground, aircraft
skidded and caught fire. Thorney Island 07.03.62.

TG519 47 Sqn Crashed on approach, Dishforth. 02.10.47.

TG522 114 Sqn Engine cut; stalled on approach and crash landed
1 nm south of Khartoum.

TG534 Dishforth Caught fire starting up Schleswigland. 06.04.49.
Damaged beyond repair.

TG552 Lyneham Crashed on landing and damaged by fire. 12.04.51.

TG559 Lyneham Crashed on landing Abingdon and DBF. 09.10.53.

TG562 Lyneham Crashed on take-off, Topcliffe. 14.03.52.

TG564 53 Sqn Undershot landing at Kai Tak and hit hut. DBF.
27.05.53.

TG574 53 Sqn Lost a prop and crashed on finals at Benina.
20.12.50.

TG575 70 Sqn Undercarriage collapsed on landing at El Adem, Caught fire 04.05.66.

TG577 511 Sqn Lost elevator control and dived into the ground on approach, Abingdon 06.07.65.

TG579 48 Sqn Flew into the sea an approach to Gan. 01.03.60

TG580 48 Sqn Sank on landing and undercarriage collapsed at Gan 03.07.59.

TG583 241 OCU Crashed on approach, Dishforth. 31.07.50

TG584 242 OCU Spun into ground on overshoot at Dishforth. 13.09.55

TG602 TCASF Lost elevator, dived into ground WSW of Shallufah, 12.01.53.

TG603 99 Sqn Blown off runway and damaged beyond repair. 16.06.52

TG610 242 OCU Swung on landing, hit control tower Thorney Island 17.12.63.

TG611 Dishforth Crashed on take-off, Tegel, 16.07.49.

TG613 Lyneham Three engines cut; ditched 140 nms WNW of Benghazi, 22.07.53.

TG615 24 Sqn Flew into wood overshooting from Colerne, 21.10.57

TG624 202 Sqn Swung on take-off and stalled, Aldergrove, 27.12.61

WD478 Handling Crashed on take-off from Manby, 19.03.51

WD483 70 Sqn Undercarriage collapsed, caught fire, Ataq, Aden 09.04.56.

WD484 RRE Took off with elevators locked, stalled and dived into the ground, Boscombe Down, 02.03.55.

WD491 24 Sqn Tyre burst on landing, swung and tipped-up, West Raynham, 09.06.67.

WD492 A Flt Flew on to the Greenland ice cap on supply drop, 16.09.52.

WD497 48 Sqn Engine failure during supply drop, stalled and dived into the ground, Seletar, 29.05.61.

WD498 70 Sqn Pilot's seat slid back on take-off, stalled, hit ground and caught fire, El Adem, 10.10.61.

WJ335 53 Sqn Stalled on take-off and hit ground, Abingdon, 22.06.53

WJ341 24 Sqn Sank on approach and undershot runway, Abingdon, 26.07.55.

WJ342 36 Sqn Swung on take-off, undercarriage collapsed, Eastleigh, 23.01.61.

So, 33 Hastings were lost between 1949 and 1967 out of a total of 148 built (not including the two prototypes, TE580 and TE583 which were never in RAF service). That gives a loss rate of 22.3% of all the Hastings built. However, the hastings was in service from 1949 until 1957 so the loss rate was about 1.8 aircraft per year but most of the losses took place in the early years "when young men were sent straight into the left seat and left to get on with it".

Now, I always wanted to fly the Hastings but I got posted on to the Argosy.

We had 56 aircraft and lost four but got one back again so, the net result was three. All of them were caused by finger trouble:

XP413 105 Sqn Went in the water on short finals to runway 08 at Khormaksar on a Cat ride. Finger trouble. Aircraft was rebuilt.

XP441 267 Sqn Tried to go around after bouncing on landing with No.4 engine shut down. Benson, 04.06.70.

XR105 ETPS Italian ETPS student didn't geta 2-engine go-around right. Crew killed. 27.04.76.

XR133 267 Sqn Young captain killed everyone on board doing a beat-up at Got Al Afrag, Libya, 07.05.68.

So, there was a net loss of three Argosys and if we are to take the Italian ETPS student out of the equation (which was well after the Argosy came out of Transport Command) we are left with two.

However, the Argosy was only in service for 10 years so the rate becomes somewhere around 0.004 aircraft lost per year.

I would still like to have flown the Hastings but my two wives and my children are eternally grateful that I got posted on to the Argosy!

[JW411]

Mind you, as an afterthought, it has to remembered that the RAF got rid of something around 600 Meteors!

[brakedwell]

890 Meteors lost - 444 fatalities - life was cheap in those days.

You didn't miss anything Jock the Hastings was an awful aeroplane. I did more PIC hours in Meteors (45) than I did on the Hastings (0) during my twenty month tour on 99! I escaped from the RHS when the first Britannias arrived as you needed 1000 hours PIC to become a co-pilot on the shiny new fleet.

[lotus1]

I Remember one sunny evening night going up to manston around 78 and then being greeted by 3 Belfasts which had been placed in to store with the rumour invicta was going to use these for cargo aircraft these then flew out i belive to southend then Tac/Heavylift bought these i could not help laughing when the falklands conflict in 82 was on who helped with the cargo movements again the good old belfast .

[JW411]

G-BEPE/XR362, G-BEPL/XR369 and G-BEPS/XR368.

I flew G-BEPS (with the registration stuck on with black bodge tape) for the very first time from Manston on 14.02.78 with T.N. and Zebedee.

This was the first flight of a civil Belfast (if we are to ignore the fact that Short Brothers used the civil registration G-ASKE for publicity purposes on XR362 during test flying).

[brakedwell]

Was the Belfast equiped with full reverse thrust?

[Double Hydco]

Yes it was. We used to reverse it into some tight parking positions! Also nice to have when delivering the aeroplane to Southend for the maintenance people.

[GAZIN]

G-BEPS shortly after arriving at STN from Manston Sep 1978.

http://i457.photobucket.com/albums/qq293/Jetmech_photos/H35-Belfast-G-BEPS-1Sep78.jpg

[bonajet]

Hello JW411

TG615 24 Sqn Flew into wood overshooting from Colerne, 21.10.57

Bit of a thread hijack but as a youngster at Colerne, I remember a Hastings crashing into a field alongside the Fosse Way, just before the turning off towards the village. Bit south of the easterly threshold. Is this the TG615 accident? Timing is right 57-60 but it wasn't into a wood. Can any ex-Hastings guys confirm this?

[JW411]

My copy of "Broken Wings" by JJ Halley (Air-Britain publication) states:

21.10.57 Hastings C.1 TG615 511 Sqn 1 1/4 miles SSW of Colerne: Undershot asymmetric landing and bounced; yawed on attemted overshoot (go-around) and flew into a hill; caught fire.

Hope that helps.

[brakedwell]

Another Report (http://aviation-safety.net/database/record.php?id=19571021-0)

[bonajet]

Thanks to both of you. That looks about the right place on the map. After an undershoot on 25, bounce and loss of control, it's amazing it made it to the other end of the airfield (south of 07 threshold). Good old asymmetric practice strikes again.

[gopher01]

Moving a Belfast into a hangar by lifting up the nose may seem a bit drastic but at least it went in fore and aft. As a new aircraft fitter propulsion posted to Thorney Island in December 1966 ( so new the trade didn't exist until Aptil 1967 ), I was posted onto Beverley 2nd line. The procedure for inserting and extracting the Bev into and out of the hangar was in essentials similar to the Belfast except we did it sideways!
In order to get it into the hangar the aircraft was positioned across the hangar entrance with the main undercarriage on two skates to enable the aircraft to be towed sideways into the hangar. To get the fins down low enough to go through the hangar doors the nosewheel was on a third skate which could elevate the nose undercarriage to the required height after which the whole ensemble was towed sideways into the hanger, the nose then lowered ensuring the fins the went up BETWEEN the rafters of the hangar and the aircraft jacked to remove the skates.
A problem could, and to my knowledge did arise on at least one occasion, in that there was no limit switches to control how far you could lift the nose and unless constantly monitored you could lift it too far until the nose began lifting of its own accord! The situation was saved by the immediate addition of a number of techies to the nose skate until the down button was pressed and the skate and nose undercarriage returned to Terra Firma.
In the words of Max Boyce "I know cos I was there".

[AndersD]

Every so often I browse the net for the SC5 Belfast and it was with great excitement that I found this site and this particular thread.
I should explain that I worked in Shorts Queen's Island Factory from 1962 to 1971 initially as an apprentice and eventually graduating to the drawing office.
The Belfast was in full production in those years.
The many posts on this thread brought back a host of memories.
She was a mighty giant of an aircraft built in an enormous factory or so it seemed to a seventeen year old. The final assembly area was three hundred foot square of unsupported roof and as mentioned in the thread the Belfast was a major problem to move about during its various stages of manufacture. The tail fin was added at the very last stage with the roof structure modified to suit and yes as mentioned to extract the plain from the building a special hydraulic lifting trolley was attached to the front under carriage to raise the nose of the aircraft up and allow the tail fin to clear the roof structure. In fact on the day of the first role out the local morning paper had a head line " SHORTS HAVE BUILT AN AIRCRAFT THAT CANNOT BE REMOVED FROM THE BUILDING" or something to that effect, it caused great amusement in the factory among the staff. There are many memories and stories that I can relate during those years on the shop floor with the Belfast, but the crowning moment was when in the drawing office one early afternoon I received an invite to go on a test flight, initially I thought it was a joke but it did happen. The aircraft trundled up and down a test corridor between the Mourns and Co Fermanagh testing the stall points. It was my first experience of a flight deck in action. When the chimes went off over my head without warning I was very startled. We did not see the take off or landing as we were seated in the crew seats in the galley but were allowed unto the flight deck for most of the flight.
She was a big aircraft and had many faults but she survived went to the Falklands and many other strange places lifting strange shapes and loads in fact I think that the hold shape was her saving grace.
I watched with great anticipation as the work went on at Southend only to be greatly disappointed at the destruction in the end. Is this to be the fate of Hector sitting in Australia.

[BigEndBob]

Father of a lad on a recent trial lesson said he flew these for Heavy Lift.
He said they rarely got across the Atlantic on all four engines.

[JW411]

So I wonder what Heavylift did wrong. I only ever had to shut one down (LP5 failure) when I flew them in the RAF.

[ferrydude]

What was the total fleet hours for the Belfast when RAF operated them?

[Double Hydco]

What was the total fleet hours for the Belfast when RAF operated them?

According to Belfast: Story of Short's Big Lifter byMolly O'Loughlin White, the fleet did 82,000 in RAF service, and the individual airframes flew between 6,000 and 10,000 hours.

DH

[Lancman]

Nil engine failures in my 1,100 RAF Belfast flying hours.

[Double Hydco]

So I wonder what Heavylift did wrong. I only ever had to shut one down (LP5 failure) when I flew them in the RAF.

I worked for Heavylift for 11 years from the early 90's, and I don't remember the Belfast fleet having an extraordinary amount of engine failures that required an engine change, especially considering the age of the aircraft and engines. In the early years some of the expertise came from former 53 squadron people.

Nil engine failures in my 1,100 RAF Belfast flying hours.

I did a similar number of Belfast hours in Heavylift service, and had only one engine shutdown, mid-atlantic, due to loss of oil from an accessory gearbox.

[Varipitch]

Can anyone bring us up to date with either-or indeed both.
We have a man on a daily mission to see if anyone is kicking the tires or indeed countin' the Tynes and since we lost our man at Cairns, we hear nothing from that quarter. Sure would be obliged for any info-but please make it 'real'.

[Bert Stiles]

I think someone's just being a bit provocative about the shutdown record in HLA. The earlier posts in the thead are all about Britannias rescuing Belfasts with duff Tynes etc. Yes, there were possibly two LP5 failures I can remember (one at Akinci needing a 3E ferry), but most shutdowns were prompted by gear box drive problems. Remember double alternator failures? I know about 5 of those. Not all required gearbox changes. 30W eastbound, Bateen, Stansted, enroute ICT - BGR, enroute FAO -CWL. One engine overheat enroute ASI - DKR. Stopping from V1 minus about 2 kts at SEN with a fuel pump fracture failure and fluctuating/decaying tq. There may have been more in the 4500 hrs I did on them. I don't think we did anything wrong, but ask Hockham Admiral - I think he has the highest hours of anyone on the SH5. We wouldn't have a bad word said about them. Keep the one at Cosford. I hope they cut up the one at Cairns - it's time.

[Proplinerman]

I've very recently unearthed a distant shot of a Belfast (XR371) coming in on what I'm pretty sure was the second of two practice ILS approaches to Manchester in November 1973-photo caption explains why photo is distant:

Belfast XR371 overflying home, Nov 1973e | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/8650664323/in/photostream)

So, can any former Belslow crew here possibly remember making those approaches way back then? If so, I was below you and I saw you!

[Wyvernfan]

I've seen film of a HL Belfast sliding off a runway onto the grass during a landing with apparently a retracted or collapsed starboard main gear. Any idea when and where this was?


Rob

[sisemen]

The aircraft trundled up and down a test corridor between the Mourns and Co Fermanagh testing the stall points.

On my first trip on a Belfast (XR 369) we did practice stalls. I was seated on the mezzanine deck on the starboard side and can vividly remember the wings and each engine being completely out of synch with each other and bouncing around totally independently. :eek:

[WH904]

Does anybody know where any decent pictures of the Belfast (in RAF markings) can still be found? I keep trying to find a few but most are either small or bad quality. Wonder where all the lovely official photos went?

[Jhieminga]

53 shots on Airliners.net: click here (http://www.airliners.net/search/photo.search?aircraft_genericsearch=%3D%22short+sc-5+belfast%22&airlinesearch=uk+-+air+force&countrysearch=&specialsearch=&keywords=&sort_order=photo_id+desc&page_limit=15&daterange=&range=&thumbnails=&engine_version=6.0)

[WH904]

Yes, some nice shots there. I'd love to find some of the old official shots though. I seem to recall a set that was taken at Akrotiri, but I haven't seen them for years and years now. Shame that the poor Belfast is so under-photographed.

[Blackboxchanger]

Short Belfast

Wikipedia lists all the Belfasts built for the RAF by name, but I have a photo of myself alongside a Belfast that is not listed. In 1966 I was serving in the VASF (Visiting Aircraft Servicing Flight) at RAF Khormaksar, where one of those visiting aircraft was a Belfast named 'BELFAST'. That name is not listed as being one of the RAF aircraft and, although it appears to be in RAF Transport Command livery I am not certain it had an RAF registration. It was probably transiting to Gan/Changi, so was this aircraft on a proving flight and was it subsequently renamed or was it separate from the ten RAF aircraft?

[Liffy 1M]

XR362 was registered G-ASKE for autoland trials and wore the name "Belfast" in large lettering at that time. See upper left photo here: Welcome to North West Air News (http://www.nwan.co.uk/classicplanes.html)

[Blackboxchanger]

Thanks 'Liffy 1M' for the update, it must be the same aircraft. Unfortunately, I'm having difficulty attaching images to this reply, but at the time of its visit to Khormaksar, the aircraft did not have the full RAF livery as shown on the website photo, no roundels or fin markings, no "ROYAL AIR FORCE TRANSPORT COMMAND' logo, and it appears to have a civilian registration on the rear fuselage, but it did have the fuselage blue flash on a white background of 'Transport Command'.

[Liffy 1M]

The caption to this photo indicates that XR362 spent two periods as G-ASKE and the dates for the second such assignment of 1965-6 seem to fit with your sighting. http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1194854/

[stafford-baker]

During the V-N war, some press photographer spotted a Belfast on the ground in Vietnam, it had I believe been doing a helo lift as a favour for the Americans. The resulting shot appeared in the UK press and questions were asked in Parliament. The official reply then was, and I quote, ' this is the ambassadors personal aircraft' I kid you not!:)

[JW411]

I seem to remember one of our aircraft doing a run from Changi to Saigon with Red Cross supplies that were stuck inside 2 unserviceable C-130s.

[Lancman]

XR369, 18th February 1968. I think that we might have been a "diplomatic bag".

[India Four Two]

I just re-visited this thread to find the marvellous photo of the 10 Belfast formation and re-read TW411's reference to the Belslow and the Fastback.

Can someone point me to a description and/or pictures of the fuselage mods?

[Red Four]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DnteruMa8SA

Heavylift Belfast at Southend, enjoy!

[Wander00]

How easy (or difficult) was it to get the Belfasts certificated as civil aircraft?

[Proplinerman]

Red Four: thanks for posting link to the Belslow videos at Southend. They look great on a quick initial glance-and I've saved them as a Favourite on You Tube to view at my leisure shortly.

[Fugazi1000]

Fris B, JW411,

Regarding XR368 and the delay in Darwin - my Father's logbook has some dates that may be relevant. He was a mover (UK MAMS at that time?) and I was a brat left at home in Abingdon.

XR368 left Brize on the 5th Dec '74 and arrived in Darwin on the 10th (via Akrotiri, Masirah, Gan, Tengah, Brunei). It looks like it departed Masirah and then returned to Masirah after flying for 5 hours.

Upon arriving at Darwin it spent 8 days on the ground until heading to Woomera on the 18th, back to Darwin then to Tengah on the 20th. It looks like my Father finished the last part of the route in a Brittania (XM490) arriving back in Brize in time for Christmas (almost midnight on the 21st).

If you remember flying with Gerry P***** any insights or anecdotes would be very welcome.

[ian16th]

Just got this shot of Cairns Airport from Google Earth with an image date of 10/23/2015

http://i818.photobucket.com/albums/zz108/ian16th/Belfast_1.jpg

[Double Hydco]

Poor old "foxtrot tango". :sad:

[Fareastdriver]

an image date of 10/23/2015

It's been there for over five years.

[Stanwell]

The DC3 has recently been moved by road to be converted into a cubby-house or somesuch.
Cairns airport also wants the Belfast out of there.
Just a shame it's too big to fit into the back of my ute. :{

[Tinribs]

Peter was the senior ground school man at BMI for many years, he has since died. I think he was a Belslow skipper and something horrid happened causing him to opt out of the Queens Flying Club.
Does anyone know what the event might have been?

[Stratofreighter]

The end is nigh for "Hector"....
Short Belfast status - Cairns Airport - Updated to Feb 2017 (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?132129-Short-Belfast-status-Cairns-Airport-Updated-to-Feb-2017) :uhoh: :{ :(

[DaveReidUK]

"I received news today that Short SC-5 Belfast C1, XR365, [G-HLFT, RP-C8020] is to be cut up at Cairns airport tomorrow, 28-2-17"

I suspect that cutting up a Belfast might take rather more than a day. :O

[Bigears]

Sorry to hear about Hector.
Here's some photos when he departed Prestwick on a dreicht 6th Nov 2004 after receiving maintenance for some time.
In memoriam...
http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/andrew_williams3/Taxying%20out_zpslgaljmzu.jpg

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/andrew_williams3/Closeup_zpsetfn50s2.jpg

http://i1303.photobucket.com/albums/ag157/andrew_williams3/On%20the%20roll_zpscags3he6.jpg

[surely not]

It didn't take much longer than a day to break the Belfast that used to languish at Southend Airport back in the 1990's. Very sad to see it smashed to smithereens.

[DaveReidUK]

Four of the ten Belfasts ended their days at Southend - they probably got breaking them down to a fine art. :O

[tpng conehead]

I had a look at the Belfast at noon today. No activity on breaking it up.

[kgraves]

Varipitch, I'd love to hear the whole story. Can you message me at [email protected]

[El Bunto]

How easy (or difficult) was it to get the Belfasts certificated as civil aircraft?

Following is from my notes over the years, based on secondary sources so may be dodgy in places.

Total cost of civil certification in 1978 - 80 was around £10 million. Shorts had done a lot of the basic work in the mid-1960s when they planned to build two civilian white-tails at the end of the RAF production. That idea was abandoned when the RAF cut the order from 30 to 10 and thus the CofA work was curtailed. But they kept the paperwork and the RAF also released a lot of service data as part of the fleet sale.

The main certification problem was the Belfast's stall which was reported to be unusual, no pitching or rolling but a fast sink. The RAF were content with stick-shakers but the CAA required stick-pushers too. Smiths removed two of the channels of the triplex autopilot ( disabling Autoland ) and repurposed them for the pushers. I think the work was done at Manston on the first three aircraft which Heavylift later inherited. I don't know where subsequent aircraft were modified, possibly at Southend where BAF did Heavylift's maintenance.

Other civilian mods were the radios and a second weather-radar display, for the left-hand seat. One of the later Heavylift aircraft was also cleared with a long upper deck for passengers instead of just the short gallery.

Heavylift initially had one aircraft based in Singapore under the CAA cert and had planned for at least one more in USA and / or Mexico, but as far as I know never went through the FAA certification process and abandoned that idea.

[JW411]

We had three Belfasts at Manston owned by Eurolatin in 1978 (G-BEPE/XR362, G-BEPL/XR369 and G-BEPS/XR368). We only ever flew G-BEPS in my time. G-BEPL made a one-way flight to Hucknall and was broken up. The other two ended up at Southend/Stansted.

I can assure you that absolutely no modification to the triplex autoland system was carried out in my time at Manston.

[NutLoose]

I often think that the Belfast with a decent engine could have been a world beater in a niche slot above a Herc and something the A400 is just starting to fulfill.

[Fareastdriver]

Would have been even better off with four decent engines.

[evansb]

The Belfast had a MTOW over 100 tonnes. What specifically was deficient with the Rolls Royce Tynes? Too thirsty? They were used with some success on the Vickers Vanguard and the Canadair CL-44.

[GAZIN]

I believe that most of the civil certification was done by Transmeridian/British Cargo Airlines using Mashall's of Cambridge as the design authority. Both PS & PE flew with a Marshalls class 'B' registration during testing.
It had originally been the intention to paint PE in the black and blue colours planned for British Cargo Airlines, the paint was even in the hangar at SEN waiting to be applied. In the end both PS & PE recieved the Transmeridian colour scheme and titles, later modified into the Heaveylift livery.

[rolling20]

The Belfast had a MTOW over 100 tonnes. What specifically was deficient with the Rolls Royce Tynes? Too thirsty? They were used with some success on the Vickers Vanguard and the Canadair CL-44.

I think this was done on here sometime ago. IIRC, it was to do with lack of development money. The engine was ment to have an 18' prop and the engine was never developed to accept it and was thus underpowered.

[ICM]

Indeed, we've been over quite a bit of this before. There were, of course, different versions of the Tyne - check Wiki if you want more. The development of the Belfast to its final form as the Shorts SC5/10 is described in near-excruciating detail in C H Barnes "Shorts Aircraft Since 1900." A variety of further options were considered but I suspect that the failure to achieve any civil interest was the final bar to anything happening beyond the 10 ordered by the Air Ministry in 1960. The performance shortfall found in trials was more to do with the initial shape of the rear fuselage than engine power, and the fact that the 'fastback' mods brought performance virtually to spec pretty much put paid to consideration of installing uprated engines with a larger prop. And then, only some 4/5 years after the full fleet of modified aircraft became available to 53 Sqn, we had a Defence Review ..... and the rest is history, as they say.

[El Bunto]

I believe that most of the civil certification was done by Transmeridian/British Cargo Airlines using Mashall's of Cambridge as the design authority. Both PS & PE flew with a Marshalls class 'B' registration during testing. Thanks, in was able to springboard from that and get some more info. The aircraft received its provisional certification in March 1980 but without the stick-pushers were prohibited from carrying anything except cargo. The pushers seem to have been fitted in late 1981 having been tested on the third Heavylift airframe. Designed by Smiths and installed & tested by Marshalls. After full certification support personnel could be carried on the minstrels' gallery.

Two other certification requirements I missed earlier were a CVR and FDR. The reduction of the Smiths director to simplex reduced ILS capability to Cat II. A discretionary change Heavylift ( or its predecessors ) made was to remove three bunks to make space for spares storage.

Heavylift intended to display a Belfast at the Paris Salon in 1983; did that occur? Self-answer: yes.

[GAZIN]

As an apprentice I was involved in removing the bunks and the liquid oxygen plumbing from G-BEPE.

[El Bunto]

Were they comfy bunks? :) I don't think I've ever seen a photo.

[ICM]

Yes, comfy and conducive to a good sleep, though I can't say that I ever remained asleep after landing till being interrupted by Movements staff clambering up the stairs outside, as a colleague once claimed. And I recall being advised that, to get the best out of them, one should get properly undressed, no lying there in flying overalls!

In practice, however, I don't recall them being used too often. My impression was that they had been installed against an expectation of lots of double-crew operation, something that didn't happen.

[Lancman]

And in-flight re-fuelling, that didn't happen either.

[JW411]

In flight refuelling was irrelevant. The limiting factor was engine oil not fuel. No engine oil contents gauges were fitted (only temperature and pressure) so it worked out that if you divided the maximum permitted oil consumption into the maximum oil tank capacity, then you had to land after about 15 hours anyway to have an oil check.

[Meikleour]

JW411: I remember a conversation with the RAF test pilot who conducted the In-flight air refueling trials. He said that AAIR could not be done with the Belfast due to the variable RPM/torque schedules on the Tyne engine. (cf. the C130 with the Allisons)
IIRC it was Alan Fisher (see recent obits.)

[brakedwell]

ISTR an RAF Belfast set off on a round the world trip with no planned rest stops in order to monitor aircrew fatigue. Off duty crew must have hogged the bunks on that occasion because the medics threw in the towel somewhere over the Pacific!

I trust they enjoyed Honolulu :E

[ICM]

There were trials of continuous double-crew ops on both Belfast and VC10. The VC10 trial was in July 1969 and I suspect that the Belfast one was also around that time. Slip crew positioning for the Westabout ATF Exercise Hosanna in January 1970 was accomplished by a double-crewed VC10. I stand to be corrected on this, but I'm not aware of the technique being used after that. (And whilst the VC10 did not have bunks like the Belfast, the Squadron F540 report on the VC10 trial suggested that the medics ended-up more knackered than the crews!)

[El Bunto]

For those of us who haven't been inside one, I found this cutaway in the Flight archives. I particularly like the overcoat ( or is it a housecoat? ) in the wardrobe.

[Herod]

A question for those in the know. The Belfast at Cosford has what looks like a 1-ton ME, rigged for an airdrop. As far as I'm aware, the Belfast was never cleared for airdrop?. Of course, it could be delivering it to the airhead, to be loaded into a REAL airdropper (like as C130 ;))

[ICM]

Herod: I'm absolutely sure that you're right, and I've no recollection of any suggestion that the Belfast be cleared for airdropping. It sounds as if the Museum has exercised a touch of artistic licence in its display. The aircraft's rear end was largely the source of its drag problems, and to think that it might have been opened in-flight gives me the retrospective shudders.

[El Bunto]

Air-dropping over the ramp was certainly in scope for the original Britannic design; I'll try to find out if / when it was eliminated.

Update: for-but-not-with. The final SC.5 design had provision for drop equipment but the RAF did not specify its installation nor require demonstration of capability.

[ancientaviator62]

When I last saw the Belfast at Cosford it had an MSP in the back as though it was cleared for airdrop. The Belfast was never even trialled for any air drop much less cleared. Probably a lot to do with the rear end drag which gave the Tynes such a hard time .The real Cold War air transport warrior, the Hercules, sits outside where it will be left to rot and then broken up on Health and Safety grounds just like the vandals did to the Beverley at Hendon.

[El Bunto]

At least until 1961 the RAF intended to fit the Blackburn Air Delivery System, having ordered 56 units for the Argosy and specified provision for the same in the Belfast. Source: Flight, 28 December 1961. I don't know what happened subsequently so that it wasn't fitted to the Belfast. If they didn't even try the drop, how would they know that the Mark I rear fuselage was not conducive?

Re: the miraculous, all-dancing Herk. The original requirement in OR.351 was for a tactical aircraft that could spatially accommodate anything a Beverley could. The Herk failed on both points, but was purchased anyway. The Transall had superior soft-field peformance and was more commodious but failed on the range requirements ( for which the RAF had the Belfast anyway... )

[ancientaviator62]

I understand that no wind tunnel testing was carried out on the Belfast and the rear drag problem only came to light on the first flight. Perhaps those more knowledgeable could comment. As for the remarks on the Hercules even the French were eventually forced to buy the C130H !
Yes the Beverley cargo compartment was a clear ten foot square box but had they produced an advanced model (as was proposed) that would have had retracting u/c kike the Hercules and this would have compromised the cargo compartment.
I know of no one of my acquaintance who preferred the Beverley over the Hercules for the tasks it was required to carry out.
Apologies for the thread drift.

[DaveReidUK]

At the risk of stating the obvious, the Belfast was touted at the time as the RAF's new strategic freighter (as distinct from the C-130, whose role was tactical).

So I'd be surprised if an airdropping capability was ever contemplated at any stage.

The C-133, similarly, wasn't designed for airdropping (though NASA took the doors off theirs and chucked dummy Apollo capsules out to test their recovery parachutes).

[JW411]

After ten years of throwing all sorts of stuff out of the back end of an Argosy, I was delighted to learn that the Belfast had no air drop capability.

Going back to the bunks; they were pretty comfortable. I seem to remember that with two crews, a 42-hour crew duty was contemplated. I only ever got involved in part of one of those. Crew A flew from Tengah to Gan whilst Crew B took to the bunks. At top of drop into Gan, Crew B took over and Crew A took to the bunks. Crew B did the turn around at Gan and then flew to top of drop into Masirah when Crew A took over again.

We were supposed to do another swop-over at Akrotiri but to everyone's great relief, there was a slip crew already there so we didn't have to operate the last leg back to Brize.

This was just as well for I, for one, had become uncertain as to whether my ar+e was bored or countersunk. For the life of me, I can't remember why we did such a thing.

The longest flight I can remember in terms of time aloft was one crew flying Masirah to Brize direct and that was something like 15 hours 15 minutes.

My longest in terms of distance was Cold Lake, Alberta to Brize and that was 4303 nms (which I think was a Belfast record). That took us 13 hours 30 minutes.

[Herod]

Yes, the C130 was bought as a tactical aircraft, but to the RAF's surprise also proved to be a very useful strategic one.

Somewhere deep in my memory is the thought that at one point the rear doors of the Belfast were opened in flight...only to be closed very smartly when the flying characteristics became obvious. Any Belfast experts like to confirm?

[ICM]

I've no recollection from my 53 Sqn time of ever hearing of any attempt to open the doors in flight.

I find the continuing interest in these 10 aircraft rather fascinating, particularly as they were scorned so widely in their RAF time. And that interest could prove unexpectedly widespread. We landed at Los Angeles early one evening in October 1969 and parked the aircraft by the handling agent's office, close to the side of the airport area and a passing freeway. Whilst we were doing our business with the agent's staff, a chap entered the office and explained that, driving past, he'd seen an aircraft fin that shouted "Shorts" to him and he simply had to investigate it. He'd had something to do with RAF Sunderlands in WW2, we explained who/what we were and he went off quite delighted.

[galaxy flyer]

After ten years of throwing all sorts of stuff out of the back end of an Argosy, I was delighted to learn that the Belfast had no air drop capability.

Going back to the bunks; they were pretty comfortable. I seem to remember that with two crews, a 42-hour crew duty was contemplated. I only ever got involved in part of one of those. Crew A flew from Tengah to Gan whilst Crew B took to the bunks. At top of drop into Gan, Crew B took over and Crew A took to the bunks. Crew B did the turn around at Gan and then flew to top of drop into Masirah when Crew A took over again.

We were supposed to do another swop-over at Akrotiri but to everyone's great relief, there was a slip crew already there so we didn't have to operate the last leg back to Brize.

This was just as well for I, for one, had become uncertain as to whether my ar+e was bored or countersunk. For the life of me, I can't remember why we did such a thing.

The longest flight I can remember in terms of time aloft was one crew flying Masirah to Brize direct and that was something like 15 hours 15 minutes.

My longest in terms of distance was Cold Lake, Alberta to Brize and that was 4303 nms (which I think was a Belfast record). That took us 13 hours 30 minutes.

Good to hear the USAF wasn’t alone with this scurvy idea. It was tried in the early C-5 day’s; crews revolted and never again.

Oil turned out to be the ultimate limit in the C-5, too. KSAV to HCMM, engine running off-load, to Cairo West was about 27-ish hours of engine running and low oil press lights on descent and landing.

GF

[Blacksheep]

Out in Brunei we needed to fly in a replacement PW4060 for one of our B767s and Heavylift were contracted for the job. A Belfast was assigned but went U/S in Indonesia so the engine eventually arrived on an AN124. I think the Belfast was about on its last legs at that time.

[brakedwell]

When two westbound Belfasts ended up in Bahrain needing engine changes I flew a Britannia from Brize to Bahrain with a pair of replacement Tynes. Their combined loads were transferred to the Brit and we flew them back to Brize via Akrotiri. To be fair it was before the GT rear end mods were installed, but it resulted in a lot of mickey taking :E

[JW411]

Herod:

"Yes the C130 was bought as a tactical aircraft, but to the RAF's surprise also proved to be a very useful strategic one".

Let me say right away that the purchase of the C130K was one of the smartest moves that the RAF ever made and it did indeed make a useful strategic freighter but it could never become a Belfast replacement for it was too small.

The whole point of the Belfast was its ability to carry large indivisible loads. The main part of the Belfast freight bay was 63 ft 7 ins long and 12 foot square at its narrowest point. The C130K main freight bay was 40 feet by 10 feet. It was really the height and width that made the big difference. The only other aircraft (outside of the USSR) at that time that could carry a 12 foot square object was the Lockheed C5A.

How does this matter? Let me give you a practical example; one Belfast could (and did) carry two Puma helicopters to Belize. (The first Puma was loaded nose-in at a slight angle and the second one backwards). Apart from removing the main rotor blades (of course) the two Pumas remained intact and all that was needed on arrival was to re-attach the rotor blades and after a bit of blade tracking etc, the helicopters were good to go.

When the Belfast went, it took three C130s to carry just one Puma which had to be seriously dismantled and then rebuilt in the field on arrival. I have no idea how many days that took but somebody out there will have the answer.

We could carry a Sea King helicopter. Just not possible in a C130.

So, we are trying to compare apples and oranges, much as the C130 was/is a quite wonderful invention.

I have taken the liberty of attaching a couple of diagrams from Molly White's excellent book about the Belfast (an aircraft that she absolutely loved). The Super Hercules that she uses for comparison is a Lockheed L100-30 (382G). The C130K was 15 feet shorter.

[ICM]

Can you see the Sea King? It's there, believe me. At Shannon, July 1970, on its way to Edwards AFB.

[ExAscoteer]

Herod:
The Super Hercules that she uses for comparison is a Lockheed L100-30 (382G). The C130K was 15 feet shorter.

That's not quite correct.

Tbe Hercules C1 wasd 15 ft shorter, the C3 was exactly the same length as the L100-30 model.

[JW411]

Brakedwell:

Apples and Oranges.

John, I realise that you are having a bit of fun but just how many Pumas could you get in a Brit? And even if you could get one in, how would you have got it on board since you didn't have a tail ramp?

Oh; I've just remembered, you carried a dismantled transfer loader in the back which weighed almost nothing at all.

I can remember parking alongside a TMAC CL-44 (Canadian Britannia) at Tehran. The crew came over for a cup of tea in our rather spacious galley. They were trying to offload a large truck which was designed for drilling exploratory oil wells. Of course, the truck was in the freight bay - 12 feet above the ramp.

They had five pieces of ground equipment involved in the exercise. Two GPUs were chained to the nose jacking points to stop it from sitting on its ar+e. The hi-lo wasn't strong enough to support the weight of the truck so they had two large forklifts, one on each side of the hi-lo to help support the weight. Of course, being Tehran nothing could possibly go wrong.

We were unloading lots of Chieftain tank engines (the locals went through them like there was no tomorrow - apparently, their tank drivers could not get out of second gear). The TMAC captain remarked that it would all have been so easy to drive the truck down the ramp, if he had one, and be on his way.

Apples and Oranges.

[brakedwell]

Brakedwell:

Apples and Oranges.

John, I realise that you are having a bit of fun but just how many Pumas could you get in a Brit? And even if you could get one in, how would you have got it on board since you didn't have a tail ramp?


I’ll bite Jock ;)

I did carry 1 Rhino, 4 Cheetas, 3 Leopards (4 legged) + assorted snakes, gazelles ad cuddly animals from Kilimanjaro to Lagos. Only scary bit came after the rhino’s pallet was safely on the ground and the said animal started to pee. It must have lasted ten minutes, saturating the peat before watering a large area of the cargo ramp. Had the Rhino been incontinent it would have been goodbye to the Britannia’s notorious electrics.

[Herod]

JW.

I take your point entirely. To get a Wessex into the C130 meant removing the main gearbox and a chunk of fuselage. IIRC, this could only be done three times before the rivet holes went beyond spec. However: during Bersatu Padu in 1970 (I was on Wessex then, C130 later), we were supposed to have ten Wessex in Changi. They got there eventually, but my memory is of two assembled and flying, two in a U/S Belfast in Gan, two in a U/S Belfast in Masirah, two in Akrotiri (guess where?), and two in a U/S Belfast at Brize. A long time ago, but I think I have the facts right.

Great load-lifter though, and a wonderful crew transport. ;)

[JW411]

ExAscoteer:

Sorry, I was not aware that the RAF had any Hercules C.3s in 1976.

Herod:

Yes, we all had our bad days. I can remember one of our better times. We set up a slip pattern to reinforce Belize in November, 1975. Not a single Belfast went u/s. I personally did:

05.11.75 XR362 Brize - Gander (Slip)
08.11.75 XR365 Gander - Nassau (Slip)
09.11.75 XR371 Nassau - Belize - Nassau (Slip)
10.11.75 XR362 Nassau - Belize - Nassau (Slip)
12.11.75 XR366 Nassau - Bermuda - Brize (Home)

The loads consisted mainly of helicopters, ferret scout cars and (I think) a Harrier on its special cradle (fuselage with the one-piece wing set at an angle alongside).

You will be astonished to learn that Gander and Nassau were covered in sick C130s.

C'est la guerre!

[Herod]

JW,

Not surprised at all. I did a tour as an Ops Controller at Thorney, when it housed the Herc OCU. Too many times: cold, snowy winter's night. Call from Comcen ref priority message. Get dressed, de-ice car, drive to Comcen. C-130 tech down route, spares and delivery to organise. The galling thing was that the message usually ended "Captain contactable Castle Harbour Hotel, Bermuda"

[Fareastdriver]

There was a portable radar in Belize which came out in a Belfast. I don't know what happened to it when the Belfasts went because it was too big to go in a Hercules.

[Shackman]

There was a portable radar in Belize which came out in a Belfast. I don't know what happened to it when the Belfasts went because it was too big to go in a Hercules.

Was that No 1ACC - air portable so long as you had 16 Argosies (or may be just 1 Belfast) available. However, as it required so many air assets that when it was deployed in UK it (all) went by road from its base in East Anglia. I really would like to thank the planning team that sent it to Lossiemouth in the mid '70's on a Sunday at the start of the summer holidays. The (very long) convoy of Queen Mary's seemed to have a top speed of 20 mph - by the time it reached Aviemore going up the A9, which in those days was a fairly windy single carriage road, the traffic jam was back to Perth. It took me just over 14 hours to get back to Lossie as opposed to the normal 3 to 4 hours; I reached the front of the traffic jam, or the back of the rearmost Queen Mary, about 10 miles out from Lossie!

[Blacksheep]

particularly as they were scorned so widely in their RAF time.As an example of the kind of thing that gave rise to the scorn of maintenance staff. The Belfast carried a spare battery. Because it wasn't used it had to be returned to the battery shop at one month intervals for topping charge and re-certification. The main batteries, being connected to the bus, received in-service charging so they were removed only once every three months. To replace the spare battery you had to remove the main batteries to get access. :ugh:

That's just one example of the lack of attention to detail: there are hundreds more. Every aeroplane has its bad points, but despite its size and luxurious crew accommodations, the Belfast seemed to suffer from far more than its fair share of reliability and inaccessibility problems.

[Herod]

Hi Jenkins,
No you're right. A bit of old man's poetic licence perhaps. Cold though, and when woken at Xam it certainly felt snowy. Compared to Bermuda.

[wub]

Shackman: I think the radar deployed to Belize was a mobile AR1. There was one at Chivenor in the 70s, which I helped load into Belfast ‘Canopus’ on deployment to Germany.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

As an ex-OC Butcher Radar I can confirm that Belize's radar was an AR-1 (AT) for Air Transportable. However, it was pressed into service as an AD asset for compiling a Recognised Air Picture, conducting PIs and, on occasion, intercepting a certain DC-6 that would cut the corner of Belize's airspace to 'make a point'. We had 2 FCs on establishment to undertake these tasks.

[DaveReidUK]

Shackman: I think the radar deployed to Belize was a mobile AR1. There was one at Chivenor in the 70s, which I helped load into Belfast ‘Canopus’ on deployment to Germany.

I don't recall a Belfast named Canopus - the RAF's had legendary names: Samson, Goliath, Pallas, Hector, Atlas, Heracles, Theseus, Spartacus, Ajax and Enceladus.

It was the Britannias that were named after heavenly bodies.

[brakedwell]

None of the RAF Britannias were called Canopus.

[Yellow Sun]

Canopus was the Boscombe Comet.

YS

[brakedwell]

Doesn’t count :=

[DaveReidUK]

None of the RAF Britannias were called Canopus.

Wrong.

https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/full_size_0267/1402395-large.jpg

[Brian 48nav]

Just had a look at my copy of David Berry's book, 'The Whispering Giant in Uniform' and XN404 was given the name 'Canopus'.

[brakedwell]

Apologies, my error, 404 is missing from the XM496 website list. XN398 and XN404 were C2’s ordered by the Ministry of Supply, but transferred to the RAF instead of being leased to Charter Airlines for trooping contracts. I should have known that as I flew an awful lot of East and West Meds in those two.

[WIDN62]

Brakedwell.

There were 3 Mark 2 Britannias - XN392 was the other one.

[brakedwell]

Brakedwell.

There were 3 Mark 2 Britannias - XN392 was the other one.

Of course, I must be getting old :sad:

[wub]

None of the RAF Britannias were called Canopus.


I must be getting old too :rolleyes:

[dixi188]

DaveReidUK
Is that photo of XN404 at Hurn?
I think it might be outside Shackleton Aviation's hangar with the ex Zambian Airways DC-8 behind, about 1976.

[brakedwell]

Evidence of how overall performance remained on the edge can be seen in the fact that Bahrain - Akrotiri, essentially an airways route, was accepted at the time as a valid Nav Route Check route. The two major issues I recall were, first, making net Safety Height on climb-out by the time one got to the mountains in Southern Iran, across the Gulf; and, later, dealing with a simulated three-engine driftdown and diversion once over Eastern Turkey. An entry in my Cat Card for 17 Jun 70 tells me I must have cracked it that day! (I only flew the fastback aircraft, doing the first or second OCU course once training was resumed in 1969, and I shudder to think how things had been beforehand.)

Thanks for explaining why our Britannia was able to carry the combined loads of two pre-GT Belfasts from Bahrain to Akrotiri. It would have been too complicated for my tiny (pilot's) mind. :O

[DaveReidUK]

DaveReidUK
Is that photo of XN404 at Hurn?
I think it might be outside Shackleton Aviation's hangar with the ex Zambian Airways DC-8 behind, about 1976.

Yes, it's at Hurn in 1976.

[airvanman]

Facebook group you may like: https://www.facebook.com/groups/122544765057813/

[Haraka]

In the summer of 1969 I came back from Gutersloh to Brize In a Belfast ,which I thought was named "Hercules" and was XR 367( I thought at the time the name was a bit odd considering) .Having subsequently seen it as "Heracles" I just put it down to tiredness and misreading. Some years ago I did a vacform 1:144 model of a Belfast and the markings ( from Welsh Models) were for XR 367 - also dubbed "Hercules".
Did it change its name to avoid possible confusion with the "company next door" ,or were both Welsh models and myself mistaken?

[JW411]

XR367 was always named "Heracles".

[Airclues]

There's an interesting article about the Belfast in the November issue of Aviation News.

[El Bunto]

From Flight, 27 January 1966. Hand-over of the first Belfast ( Belfirst? )

[chimbu warrior]

Came across an old photo i took of a Belfast.
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1296x840/1_8_2015_100_ef5120f5688b7bfe79758b35c8dca279f005c5b4.jpg


Quite a machine!

[Pontius Navigator]

In 1985 an O-boat on patrol off the Falklands had its periscope damaged. It was decided to fly one out via Ascension Island. For very good reasons the task was contracted to Heavylift but of course without AAR Heavylift could only go as far as Ascension.

It was offloaded for onward flight in a Herc. The only problem was the periscope was 57ft long, longer than the Herc freight bay. A very smart Mover realised the top of the freight bay was over 57ft so they created treaties from spare pallets so that it could be elevated and onward shipped.

I don't know if they managed to fit it out there, nor if they brought the u/s one home.

[DaveReidUK]

A very smart Mover realised the top of the freight bay was over 57ft so they created treaties from spare pallets so that it could be elevated and onward shipped.

Don't you just love predictive text? :O

[G-ARZG]

The designer of predictive text should rot in hello...

[El Bunto]

Currently up on eBay UK, AR101B-0101-16B Operating Data Book 2: Flight Planning.

Starting at £75 *eek*

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Original-Short-Belfast-Aircraft-Operating-Data-Manual-Book-2-Flight-planning/192855304076

Oh there's already a bidder! Things could get expensive in the next 20 hours.

[Diverskii]

Great thread with some great stories. Sorry to resresurrect it but wondering if anyone has the photo of 53 sqn flying all 10 in formation? JW411 posted it back in 2012 but it is no longer visible it seems.

[India Four Two]

I was delighted to see this old thread pop up again, and I read the whole thing again, for old time's sake.

I was going to post a question at the end, but I see Diverskii beat me to it! :)

[Diverskii]

I just discovered this on Facebook. Hopefully the original owner won't mind me posting it here too. Not sure if it is exactly the same framing as the one posted in this thread once upon a time - but still a great shot of all 10 in formation. 23rd Dec 1971.

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/590x787/78468370_10156407019816901_336269379199041536_n_d31308a2383a cf80dd7ecd9e6c6637178ef2d3b1.jpg

[Herod]

Auspicious date. Not the year, I hasten to add.

[monkeybussiness]

Having noticed activity in CNS boneyard 29/11/23 went back to see how close one could get - will post photos as soon as possible
( post number 3 of requisite 8 )

[kenparry]

I saw the ten-ship formation in the distance when I was airborne from Filton in a Chipmunk - too far away to recognise, but I found out later what it was from a friend who was one of the Captains in the episode. His account was that it was badly organised, with succeeding vics stepped up from the previous ones, thus making it difficult to see the ones ahead. Earlier in his career he had flown Meteors in the day fighter role, and had argued at the briefing stage that vics should be stepped down from the ones ahead. He was over-ruled, and remained unhappy about it.

[Quemerford]

I took these (1978?) at 5 MU, Kemble. Six are visible in these shots but I recall there being more. How many ended up there?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x533/kemble_1__883058d70245245f1e09a80ddc25eb8132bd14b2.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/kemble_2__9abad62c63dc957d21c73e724c7acb8d87b8d3d8.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/kemble_3__1f6872e7d7cf04dd8be86234c26736e3520ab69f.jpg

[MAC 40612]

I took these (1978?) at 5 MU, Kemble. Six are visible in these shots but I recall there being more. How many ended up there?
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x533/kemble_1__883058d70245245f1e09a80ddc25eb8132bd14b2.jpg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/kemble_2__9abad62c63dc957d21c73e724c7acb8d87b8d3d8.jpg
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/kemble_3__1f6872e7d7cf04dd8be86234c26736e3520ab69f.jpg

All ten Belfast were stored at Kemble with them all arriving between June-November 1976 but most had gone by 1978, so your images are more likely to be in 1977?

[monkeybussiness]

it's still there today and Cairns Airport will probably close tomorrow for a tropical weather event ...

[treadigraph]

Seems to have survived unlike some lighter aircraft which are a bit damp...

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1500/lcimg_adf66edc_e645_4191_abe9_0484c12f7a6a_jpeg_13a468df2ee8 bfa76eeb9ea5f70accace04e3f5a.jpg

[chevvron]

All ten Belfast were stored at Kemble with them all arriving between June-November 1976 but most had gone by 1978, so your images are more likely to be in 1977?
Prior to Kemble some were parked at Colerne for a while and from Kemble they were all ferried to Manston for storage and disposal. I can remember several staging though my airspace (Farnborough) below controlled airspace (usually 2,400ft QNH) and a photo of them parked north of the original Manston control tower which was also north of the public road.

[JW411]

Some recollections may vary. They were not all at Kemble by November 1976. XR366 was kept at Brize Norton as a demo aircraft for potential buyers. I last flew her there on 25 February 1977. I first flew XR368 as G-BEPS from Manston on 14 February 1978. The original plan was to buy all 10 aircraft but the money ran out after 3 had been delivered to Manston (XR362/G-BEPE, XR368/G-BEPS and XR369/G-BEPL). We only ever had the three aircraft there in my time.

Incidentally, I flew XR371 from Brize to Kemble for storage on 26 August 1976. She was destined to be broken up at Hucknall (Rolls-Royce were only interested in the engines) but R-R presented her to the RAF Museum at Cosford so she went Kemble - Hucknall - Cosford. R-R got XR369 (Manston - Hucknall) as a substitute. XR364, XR366, XR369 and XR370 were broken up at Hucknall.

XR362/G-BEPE, XR363/G-OHCA, XR365/G-HLFT, XR367/G-BFYU and XR368/GBEPS all ended up with Heavylift although XR363 was delivered to Southend and never flew again but was used for spares.

I don't remember the Colerne bit at all but my memory isn't what it used to be.

[Quemerford]

Two questions then:

1. How many were stored at Kemble after their RAF service?
2. What's the background to this:
https://vintageaviationnews.com/aircraft-restoration/belfast-transport-set-to-return.html

[Loadex]

I seem to remember one of our aircraft doing a run from Changi to Saigon with Red Cross supplies that were stuck inside 2 unserviceable C-130s.
I was on that flight. Exciting offload at Tan Son Nuit with mortars landing on the airfield.

[JW411]

Quemerford:

How many were stored at Kemble after RAF service?

You would need to specify a date to get an accurate answer to that question. For example, I can tell you for sure that on 25 February 1977, nine aircraft were at Kemble (I was flying XR366 from Brize that day. I would imagine that all ten aircraft visited Kemble at one point or another. I have an air to ground photograph of seven aircraft parked just north of the 26 threshold at Kemble (marked as Air Salvage Intl on Google Earth). (I apologise but I can't remember where I got the photograph from). It would be tempting to assume that the three missing aircraft are the three that we had at Manston but that would be pure speculation.

As to how exactly Silly Old Hector got to Australia, you would probably have to find someone who flew for Heavylift. I know that she did a runner from Prestwick and was on the other side of the Pond before the CAA wakened up. The whole story would make a great yarn one day
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1277x954/kemble_312982fdfd2523baa0d55f72f9e04eaefff09efa.jpg
.

[bingofuel]

Am I the only one that finds photographs like that quite sad. Serviceable aircraft awaiting the scrapman.

[JW411]

It was perhaps the unhappiest time in my flying career.

[N707ZS]

Is that why there's an area at Kemble called the Belfast apron?

[Quemerford]

Further to my last, does anyone know the background to the second question? It looks like a return to flight is on the cards.

[bean]

Further to my last, does anyone know the background to the second question? It looks like a return to flight is on the cards.
I think return to flight is but a pipe dream

[Jhieminga]

Seems to have survived unlike some lighter aircraft which are a bit damp...

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1500/lcimg_adf66edc_e645_4191_abe9_0484c12f7a6a_jpeg_13a468df2ee8 bfa76eeb9ea5f70accace04e3f5a.jpg
Did anyone spot any animals boarding the Belfast in pairs?

[treadigraph]

If the water level rose any higher, it would emulate its namesake moored by Tower Bridge...

[DaveReidUK]

I think return to flight is but a pipe dream

Hard to disagree with that.

[meleagertoo]

I know that she did a runner from Prestwick and was on the other side of the Pond before the CAA wakened up.
Anyone able to elaborate on that intriguing snippet?

[Quemerford]

From what I've seen of Cairns airport, it seems that the flood may well have scuppered any last-minute plans to get her out. What you see there is salt water unfortunately.