The black comedy of Euro licensing

[JimBall]

Here's a current situation.

ATPL(H) with a UK-issued JAR license, LPC, medical wants to go flying in Ireland.
IAA say that his language proficiency statement doesn't comply with standards.

Apparently the UK CAA have been issuing licenses with this error and have failed to do anything about it.Or even inform the holders. All other "States" turn a blind-eye - but not the Irish.

So - an English pilot has to prove he can speak English before he can fly in Eire.

CAA say they can issue a letter "in 10 days". That'll be 8 days after the flight, then.

This is a plainly ridiculous cock-up by the CAA - and an even more ridiculous pedantic knee-jerk by little minds in Dublin.

Please take the 1957 Treaty of Rome and shove it somewhere dark.

[bigglesbutler]

The CAA don't routinely put language levels on their licenses (don't ask me why), mine is ICAO level 6 but it doesn't say that anywhere else but on the CAA computer. Considering they are saving money on printing double sided licenses, so they don't fit in you little book without cutting it up, maybe they are saving on ink too.

Si

[nigelh]

Mate of mine recently ramp checked ....
CAA... Sir please could you tell me if this is a private or commercial flight ?
Friend .....err i havent decided yet but will let you know when i get back to base .
CAA ...Ok . But please could i see your insurance ?
Friend ...No we dont have insurance . We self insure which you will find is allowed in EASA Document X Part 4 blah ..blah ..
CAA Really ? I didnt know that ...thankyou i shall have to go and look it up ....there are so many new rules its hard to keep track!!

Just remember to feed them the BS they are used to and they will swallow it :D

[JimBall]

Latest:

CAA FCL are aware that they have been issuing faulty JAR licenses that don't comply with standards. This will remain the case until July because "our systems aren't designed to cope with the language proficiency levels."

So - this bureaueurocratic cock-up means that all UK JAR holders will be grounded if caught in Eire without a letter from the CAA confirming the level of their language proficiency.

FFS! Mother tongue or what?

[SASless]

At least you are not an American.....everyone knows we can barely master "English" and for sure cannot speak any other foreign languages.:uhoh:

I would guess as mere possession of an FAA License would prove English Language Competency as that is a requirement for the license under the Regulations.

Granted we probably need a waiver for "American" in order to qualify for the English that is specified in the Reg.:rolleyes:

In in the UK....we would have to apply for....take a half dozen tests administered by Urdu speaking Pakistani's...and pay twelve different fees and charges to meet that requirement.:ugh:

Ya'll do have a much better system over there don't you?:E

[nigelh]

Sometimes you are better not asking if something is legal or not ....if it is reasonable and sensible that should be ok . Firstly what are the chances of being caught ? Approx zero . What would happen if you were caught ? Approx zero . And dont forget that you do not have to talk to or show anything to Mr CAA if he asks you as he has no legal authority ... and you can just get in your heli and fly off home .

[SASless]

The only way to fight a Bureaucracy is with a larger Bureaucracy!

[mutt]

And dont forget that you do not have to talk to or show anything to Mr CAA if he asks you as he has no legal authority Where did this idea come from?

Mutt

[JimBall]

Latest: CAA have actually now written a letter to confirm that the English pilot can speak English to "level 6".

Did I miss the end of the world?

[Fareastdriver]

I had to do an English Proficiency Test when I did my Chinese licence despite me having an CAA JAR and an Australian licence. The test was in Chinglish with an Australian accent. I failed according to the computer but they changed it to a pass because I was English.

[JimBall]

Latest: the pilot is an FI(H). He actually signs-off language proficiency tests for people.

Honestly - if this was a script for a comedy it would be rejected for being unlikely in real life.

[mutt]

an English pilot has to prove he can speak English before he can fly in Eire. An Irish pilot has to do the same thing, so what's the big deal? IAA issued JAA licences have the English proficiency level entered in the remarks section.

Mutt

[nigelh]

Mutt .....You cannot legally detain anyone in this country without police presence ....thats why half the "Police" you see wondering around are really only a visible threat . They are actually normal citizens dressed to look like police and have no power to detain / search etc etc Your CAA bloke is just a citizen so if he tries to detain you , just sue them ....or just shove him out of your way . They rely on people being ignorant of the law and then incriminating themselves .

[mutt]

Interesting..... but I think that there is a difference between "being asked to produce documents" and "being detained".

I somehow don't think that your approach will be acceptable during my next SAFA check.

Mutt

[nigelh]

I think thats slightly different !! All i am saying is you just say you are too busy and they can call to discuss another day ....then you scurry home and sort your paperwork out !!

[902Jon]

And dont forget that you do not have to talk to or show anything to Mr CAA if he asks you as he has no legal authority ...

i think you are wrong there. A CAA Inspector carries a Warrant card with the full legal privileges that gives him. He can ground you on the spot.

[ShyTorque]

I think he can advise you that your flight is not legal but "ground" you? How would he actually (as in physically prevent you taking off) do that?

[Jet Ranger]

You have to have two language level proficiency in your JAA licence ( English-ELP and local LP :eek:) ...if you are English-man in UK, you need only one. Lucky you :ugh:

[DauphinDude]

Ahh, the madness of European licensing. The rest of the world laughs at us, with a good reason.

[500 Fan]

I.A.A. = The Institute Against Aviation.

500 Fan.

[212man]

My licence says I have 'English language proficiency' and TREs (and FEs and CREs) are allowed to confirm level 6 proficiency (valid for life) using Form 1199 during LPCs. So, I'm puzzled why an ATPL holder would not meet the IAA's requirements?

[mad_jock]

Because it doesn't state the level on the license which is suggested by ICAO.

I have been pulled in year 5 of my ATPL fixed wing and they stated that the min is IACO 4 which is 4 years which with no other indication they are going to presume it is that. And as I was in year 5 of my license it was now up and I was flying illegally.

It was a policy by the the CAA when it came in and who ever made the call refused point blankly to admit they were wrong.

They had to send out everyone a new license with the english pref on it and they don't want have to do it again to put the level on it. Now they can't send out new licenses without changing them to life time EASA ones which will mean a major drop in revenue because nobody will then have to pay them anything at the end of 5 years.

There solution I was told was to tell the NAA thats doing the inspect that they are worng and it only a suggestion by IACO and the EASA stuff wasn't in place yet. As if that is going to work!!!.

I now carry another none EU license which has my ICAO language level on it as level 6.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

There solution I was told was to tell the NAA thats doing the inspect that they are worng and it only a suggestion by IACO

OK, I'm leaving myself open to being shot down in flames 'ere, but if that was English Level 6 then I'd hate to see what level 5 or below looks like.

[griffothefog]

Mad Jock,

Relax, have a large dram and try again..:ok:

[SASless]

Is there any level the Crats will not stoop to in order to generate revenue?:rolleyes:

[mad_jock]

I was sober at the time of posting and I got lifted in France as described on a friday after shutting at the CAA. It took three hours to sort out after I got my doctored last OPC form with level 6 "tick" on it faxed through by ops.

If they hadn't i was under hotel arrest until monday.

[mutt]

My FAA certificate doesnt have a ELP level, just the statement "english proficient", so if the French want to consider that as a 4 year validity, then Im sure that a lot of people are going to get caught the same as Mad_jock....

I would suggest requesting a new certificate from the FAA in order to have a more current date of issue.

Good Luck in those European skies :):)

Mutt

[RVDT]

Had a similar experience when applying for a validation recently.

It was noted that my licence was not endorsed with "English Language Proficiency".

OK - no problem. Get hold of someone who can approve me as level 6 and get the licence re-issued.

This person was originally from North of Hadrians Wall although long since removed but still broad.

AFTER he issued the document as a joke I asked "And by the way, how did you pass?"

The reply (in jockanese) - "Don't you start pal - The person that examined me at the authority (in Oceania) was from the "Asian Continent" and said his English was "borderline".

His wife was with him at the time and he said he had to physically restrain her from committing assault!

[md 600 driver]

902 Jon

Are you saying the caa inspector has the same rights as a police officer I know they employ a few failed police officers to police the ano

[before landing check list]

I would suggest requesting a new certificate from the FAA in order to have a more current date of issue.

Why would I need a new date of issue? You would figure that once you were proficient you would stay that way...unless you moved to Texas then you would slip a bit.

[mad_jock]

You are proffecient its just that it can be interpreted that once your license is more than 4 years old you maybe outside the valid period of an ICAO 4. And as you don't have a level on yours they can only presume its a 4.

Its either that or you get another bit of paper which has ICAO english perf on it with level 6. I haven't been stopped since though so don't know if it will work.

[JimBall]

Any other UK -issued JAR holders been ramp-checked and stopped for this?
And in which State?

[Cows getting bigger]

As an Irishman, the irony of a fellow Irishman asking an Englishman to prove his level of English language competency isn't lost on me.

Did that make sense?

[His dudeness]

As an Irishman, the irony of a fellow Irishman asking an Englishman to prove his level of English language competency isn't lost on me.

Did that make sense?

Hmmm, lets see, is an Eastender an Englishman? Or, for this subject only, a scotsman?

Cause they certainly do not speak English. But then the Irish do not either...

Getting hat and coat... :ok:.

The whole story sounds as if Ben Elton would have made it up for "the thin blue line"....

[captplaystation]

After 4 emails ignored by the CAA, and two periods listening to the Guff on their switchboard at international rates, I finally found by myself the info on their website that an examiner from a state whose native language is English (Eire, Canada, Oz ,NZ etc) can sign an 1199. The dippy one I spoke to at vast expense in the mad-house assured me only a UK licence holder could certify it, which (according to their own document) is bollox.
They screwed up, and they don't seem inclined to be helpful when you try to resolve it.
No change there then. Wonder how much they will want to fleece me to issue a confirmation letter? the 43 quid spent on a licence verification letter was a rip-off, it said nothing of any value I could see. The only good point was that it alerted me to the fact the 4years Level4 grandfather rights expired on 4th March, & here was me swanning around thinking I had Level 6 :rolleyes:.

[212man]

n examiner from a state whose native language is English (Eire, Canada, Oz ,NZ etc) can sign an 1199.

I thought I said that already?

TREs (and FEs and CREs) are allowed to confirm level 6 proficiency (valid for life) using Form 1199 during LPCs.

[Cows getting bigger]

An examiner from a state whose native language is English (Eire, Canada, Oz ,NZ etc) can sign an 1199.


Yes, but the barking bit is that a CAA examiner can't tell the IAA that a pilot meets an English language competency. Examiners can flight test for the renewal and revalidation of ratings, present such information to the IAA on CAA paperwork (1119 etc), make entries in pilots' licences but woe betide if they present a 1199. :ugh: For that, the pilot needs to furnish the IAA wiith a wad of cash. Ask me if I'm proud to be Irish. :{

[chuks]

I did a language test in the UK last summer and sent the paperwork for that along with the paperwork to renew my ATPL(A) after 5 years, expecting to see something like 'English Language Proficiency Level 6', since I scored that on the test. Instead it just read the same as on the old license. (I don't have it right here, but I think it just reads that one is 'proficient' without giving the numerical level.) I wanted the 6 so that I wouldn't have to do another test.

So the CAA have my '6' somewhere on the computer at the Belgrano?

[nigelh]

Why worry so much ..???? I haven't even checked mine and I'm not going to either .
one thing to do is email the CAA with a query but say in the email that you will take no response to mean that you are all ok and legal . I really do not believe that not proving a 6 language proficiency will put you foul of the law to any real extent :ugh:

[Shiny side down]

This attitude costs jobs, too. At least from the point of view of making it more awkward.

While being perfectly (or at least equally) qualified for a position abroad, the complete inflexibility displayed, coupled with their (CAA) complete lack of interest resulted in some silly shenanigans getting verifications, followed by silence on the job front.

The CAA response is that the verification/validation process will take care of it (kerching, £££ rolling in eyes, another £43 please. wait 10days)

I took time a couple of years ago to explain to a person (at UK CAA) of questionable english comprehension that they really are rather cr4p. I was referred to someone else who took umbrage at my impertinence!


On a slightly different note. Validations and verifications from UK CAA seem to me to be completely barking mad, also. They will not provide me (or any of us UK issued ) with a copy of said validation, quoting all sorts of rubbish relating to their interpretation of data protection. We pay the fee for them to release our details to others.
So. I carry a copy of the verification that UK CAA sent to the FAA, validating my license. The letter includes English level 6. The UK CAA cannot give me a copy of that letter due to UK regs, but the US FAA can give me a copy, because they aren't bound by them.

[ShyTorque]

Begorrah!

YpiAhxaE_oI&feature=related

[captplaystation]

212man, you did, & you didn't.
You said that TRE etc could sign, but didn't say non UK licence "may" be acceptable. . . . but don't worry, some of them employed at the end of the phone in Belgrano didn't know either :ugh:


Finally, some good news on the power of pprune. . . . 19days! later I got an email today confirming that yes indeed the Irish speak English too, and that an Irish TRE was acceptable for the purpose. Mere coincidence ? or this thread has been drawn to their (shamed) eyes ?

They said to email/fax the 1199 and they would furnish a covering letter, no request for money ? shome mishtake shurely ? :rolleyes:

So, a bottle of something intoxicating should be the total cost then ;)

[Pub User]

You cannot legally detain anyone in this country without police presence

That is not true. Citizens may still detain people under certain circumstances as follows (cut & paste from CPS document):

Members of the public (other than constables) may now only arrest for "indictable" offences.

There are 2 conditions which apply:-


That there are reasonable grounds to believe the arrest is necessary for a reason specified and
It is not reasonably practical for a constable to make the arrest



(Thread creep - sorry)