P-40 found in the Sahara Desert

[Nopax,thanx]

Shamelessly lifted from another forum, hot on the heels of the Spitfires in Burma comes this one....

WWW.KONRADUS.COM - LOTNICTWO - Znalezisko (http://www.konradus.com/forum/read.php?f=13&i=7154&t=7154&filtr=0&page=1)

Using Google Translate;

"My friend works in the Sahara looking for oil and gas. Recently, however, they came upon something completely different ..."

Assuming this is genuine, I would be most interested to see who ends up with the ownership of the wreck.

[huntaluvva]

I've got one of those in the loft.

It says AIRFIX on the box.

HL

[JimmyTAP]

Well I think I (and others I suspect) would be very keen to see an Airfix kit turn out like that.

If this P-40 is a fake it's a very good one.

[huntaluvva]

I don't think it's that good at all, apart from the rear fuselage closeup and cockpit shots.

[Lightning Mate]

After that amount of time in the desert, would not the cockpit be full of sand?

However, the aeroplane is sitting right wing low, and the slip indicator in the cockpit photograph is to the right, which is correct.

Also note the cloud formations from different angles.

The vacant space at the top left left in the cockpit photograph is where, I believe, a clock would have been fitted.

It was standard practice to remove the clock upon vacating the aeroplane if possible, because they were clockwork operated.

If this is a fake, either Photoshopped or a model diorama, then the perpetrator knew quite a lot.

I also understand that the RAF has been asked for help in identifying the aeroplane.

[Doodlebug]

The terrain must have changed, wind, sand, etc. Imagine what that thing would have looked like had he bellied in on that load of exposed rock. As it is it looks surprisingly intact. Hope he survived, poor bastard.

[TBM-Legend]

In the last pic there appears to be oil splotches??? Also green camo. Was this normal? Even after fading.....

[FlightlessParrot]

In models, the fine details have to be done at a larger scale than the gross scale, else they don't stand out. A model cockpit would have much coarser piping and instruments. If it's CGI, it's the best I've seen. If a fake, it must be full size movie set, I should think. The easiest interpretation is that this is real, though the location is another question

[evansb]

The photos lack contrast, and have an unusual patina and resolution. The terrain almost looks like Mars. Why no photos of squadron markings, and why no people standing next to the aircraft?

[Vitesse]

If that's a model, I can't see any glue like on mine. Almost too good to be true. Queries... Why is the canopy closed? Appears closed in the interior shot too. Why is there not more damage to the airframe and engine where it "fell off"? In the shot of the open hatch, there are two small tears in the skin that could have been made by (if it's a model) tweezer points - why is the damage from inside out? Given the amount of damage to the underside it's slightly surprising that the control surfaces match the stick position. Anyway, forgive my cynicism. If real, it's a wonderful discovery. If a model, someone has real skill. Cheers!

[Load Toad]

Well - a few others have been discussing this:
Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image? (http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45278)
Real or fake: British WWII P-40 found in the Sahara - AR15.COM (http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/1313512_Real_or_fake__British_WWII_P_40_found_in_the_Sahara. html)
P-40 from Sahara - Page 3 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116221&page=3)
Warbird Information Exchange • View topic - Any P-40 experts care to comment on this image? (http://warbirdinformationexchange.org/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=45278&start=45)

[gas path]

Why has it got what appears to be two turn and slip indicators?

[Fareastdriver]

Interesting question. You would have to find a P40 expert. The lower one with the smashed glass looks like the official one. The top one has a caging knob on it which is something I have never seen before.

[Airclues]

The upper instrument seems to be a combined DG and slip indicator. The caging knob is presumably for the DG.

Dave

[Terry McCassey]

If it is for real, it's an unusual collection of images to offer for public display. Despite all the military aviation interest, why are no more forthcoming ? I'm on the fence with this one . . . Terry

[Load Toad]

At the moment I'm tempted to think that it is a real P-40, found in the claimed area of the desert...but I think the photographs may be old. So it isn't a recent find.
The only thing I'm basing this thought on is that a) there would be great media interest in the find already b) Mostly people carry digital camera's now so they could easily shoot lots of pictures c) Other than the original post there are no additional posts with other pictures or details d) If the RAF had been advised wouldn't some Ppruners know by now?

Anyway - I'd love to see more images and know more about the story even if it is a find from many years ago.

Does anyone know if from the image it can be deduced if it is a scan of a film or a digital photo?


On another site they are speculating on the squadron...:P-40 from Sahara - Page 4 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=4)

[StallsandSpins]

these photos are good but not quite right. my $5 says the photos are the work of a very good Photoshop artist.

[Load Toad]

If that is the case it shows some incredible knowledge of wartime aircraft, engineering & the effects of a crash & weathering.

P-40 from Sahara - Page 7 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showthread.php?t=116221&page=7)

[Vitesse]

Could someone clever comment on the direction that the prop tips are bent?

My limited experience says its the wrong way in the pics.

[Load Toad]

One that is visible is bent backwards one appears to be bent forwards...hard to say what was bent before & after it got ripped off the engine.

[Vitesse]

Hmmm - a matter of perspective, I think!

Next question - how does the prop assembly get to be at the right rear when the damage indicates it went over/under the left wing. More bent cowling on that side.

I'm having trouble seeing how those last few yards of the landing played out.

[Load Toad]

Quite badly it appears.

[stevef]

As soon as I saw the first three photos, I thought: model. The focus isn't at all convincing to my eyes and the the whole panorama just smacks of a carefully-arranged set-up.
To begin with, I've spent a bit of time in hot & dusty places and would therefore expect to see a fair bit of sand in the engine compartment, which there isn't. Speaking of which, there doesn't seem to be a huge amount of damage to the cowling areas considering the reduction gear is supposed to have been ripped out (especially to the forward bulkhead attachments at the support frame aft of the spinner).
The fourth photo shows a scene that wouldn't be beyond the capability of a skilled modelmaker and the oil spots (after how many years?) on the wing root fillet show that he's gone a bit too far with his 'authenticity'.
BTW, anyone noticed that the magnetos are turned on and the throttle & mixture controls are fully forward... Hardly a forced landing configuration. :hmm:
The whole thing's a clever con in my opinion and it's probably generated the heat that the initiator intended.

[Vitesse]

So how does it get there? Care to speculate on those last few yards of motion?

[Load Toad]

and the oil spots (after how many years?) on the wing root fillet show that he's gone a bit too far with his 'authenticity'.

Yeah, but would a skilled model maker or photo-shopper have gone to the extent of an open hatch that because it is open but part of a bent fuselage actually be cut by the metal of the fuselage and bent so that there was no view of the open compartment...? That's just too serendipitous for my liking.

I'm going to stick with '..real but from maybe a decade or multiple decades ago.'

[DH106]

Interesting - if you up the Gamma on picture #3, there's a fair amount of engine detail visible in the dark shadows of the nose, and much more detail visible on the rear end of the detached prop hub. If it's a fake it's a very skilled modeller :confused:

[Out Of Trim]

I Vote Real....:ok:

[cyflyer]

Oh come on !!! They are obviously fake and I cannot believe so many people have been duped. If not a model, then it looks like stills from a flight sim enviroment, created in the same way as a flight sim. The landscape in the first and second photos is different, where did those clouds in the second photo suddenly come from that weren't in the first one, and, the paintwork would be FAR more weathered, it would be barely visible if at all. Not even worth discussing this any more.

[parabellum]

Some time around 1965/6 we took two Sioux helicopters out to El Adem, courtesy of a Beverly and an Argosy from the RAF. The aircraft were reassembled and we flew them west wards to an old WW2 fighter field called Timimi where an armoured battle group was in camp for a month doing live fire battle runs, we flew a whole lot of hours all over the place, areas that had not been overflown at low level and low speed since the war and saw wrecks of vehicles and aircraft that looked as though it happened much more recently than twenty three years.

Very dry air, no corrosion to speak of etc. and in the case of these pictures it is a very rocky looking piece of desert with not a whole lot of sand to fill up or cover up the wreck. Which ever way I vote will be wrong so I'll just leave the above as additional info!:)

[ZeBedie]

Mag switches and throttle in the wrong position are easily explained by passing nomads.

[stevef]

Well, at least they had the manners to close the canopy once they'd finished playing. :)

[DH106]

And if you were the guy who took the photos, wouldn't you want to play with the controls and perhaps even get in if the canopy still slides. So, if it is indeed real the control & canopy positions don't really mean anything.

[USE THE RUDDERS]

Just watched these two, now doing the rounds.

Crush Air plane 1 Movie.mp4 - YouTube

Crush Air plane 2 movie.mp4 - YouTube

[DH106]

Well, those vids are the clincher. Genuine.
Looks like the photos pre-date the vids tho, so it's likely to have been picked clean now :-(

[Load Toad]

Now that's some clever model making and photo-shopping innit then ;-P


Great pity that it appears there was / is very little that'll be left to save.

[stevef]

Fair enough - can't argue with that! :O

[Vitesse]

Well I guess that settles it!

The canopy is wholly intact in the video, it appears.

[cyflyer]

Hmmm, what can I say ? The video looks more genuine than the photos. Typical of the Arabs to salvage the guns and ammo packs. Hehe, I wonder if they're still usable, they'll come in handy.

Can anyone judge from the vehicles seen in the video, what year approximately ?

[Benjybh]

The description says 'Egypt 2012.03' and it was only uploaded to YouTube on Friday, if that helps at all.

[gas path]

If that is indeed Eygpt, I wonder if it could be a 112 squadron a/c?

[TEEEJ]

cyflyer wrote


Can anyone judge from the vehicles seen in the video, what year approximately ?

2012

The person that took the original images promises more images on the following forum. Truly amazing how many people immediately went down the 'fake' path.

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - P-40 from Sahara (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1881022&postcount=173)

From

P-40 from Sahara - Page 6 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=6)

Enhancement of one of the images showing the detail in the cockpit.

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - P-40 from Sahara (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1881161&postcount=202)

[stepwilk]

Truly amazing how many people immediately went down the 'fake' path.

Easy to say in retrospect, but those of who did call fake, including me, are well aware of the capabilities of 21st century photo-doctoring and, in my case, of the state of the modelmaker-diorama craft.

[TEEEJ]

stepwilk wrote

Easy to say in retrospect

Nothing to do with retrospect. All that happened here was some people were fooled by the poor quality of the digital images. When I first saw them I ran them through a bit of post processing. A little bit of sharpening and adjustment brought out the details and corrected the initial look. It was the limitations of the photographers camera, or its set-up, that caused the confusion.

[corsair]

I thought it was fake too but only delighted it isn't. The simple reason so many people are instantly skeptical is that the internet is awash with fakers. This looked too good to be true but it isn't.

In the video the people taking the ammunition appear to be military and others around the aeroplane seem to have some form of uniform which gives some optimism that it will protected to some extent. Officialdom would be quick to remove the guns and ammunition for obvious reasons.

The question now is what's the serial number and what happened to the pilot?

[Vitesse]

Think of the P40 as a Thai Ladyboy. What a relief to find it is not a fake. The chaps in the video seem to be doing their best to pull the wreck apart. I noted earlier that the canopy was intact in the video, but had been broken by the time the pics were taken.

[NorthernKestrel]

There's a pretty amazing photo gallery here of the find..

https://picasaweb.google.com/114682566226043469349/Zdj_samolot?authuser=0&authkey=Gv1sRgCKjxkt6rkNTFKg&feat=directlink#

Simply amazing condition!

[Fareastdriver]

All those pictures but not one aircraft serial number.

[Herod]

Pity there is no registration. Does the red (orange) paint on the nose mean anything to anyone? The battery was manufactured in Australia; perhaps that indicates it may be RAAF.

[TEEEJ]

The data plate appears to be missing from the P-40, but it is a possibility that it is serial ET574.

See following from page 14 onwards.

P-40 from Sahara - Page 14 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=116221&page=14)

On 28/6/42 ET574 Piloted by F/Sgt DCH Copping 785025 left 260 for a ferry flight to an RSU . The A/C flew with u/c locked down due to damage . An incorrect course was set and the A/C was thought to have crashed in the Desert due to fuel exhaustion. F/Sgt Copping is listed as missing on that date.

[DH106]

It's possibly that one I suppose - but that doesn't look much like a 'gear down' forced landing to me - it'd have flipped right over onto it's back in that rocky terrain.

[sharksandwich]

..........

[Load Toad]

..we don't know it was rocky ground when it crashed do we...?

[DH106]

I take your point Load Toad, but if it landed gear down then why isn't it on it's gear?
Any warbird pilot will tell you that the bird will flip well before the gear gets ripped off in a gear down landing in rough terrain.

[Load Toad]

Reason suggested on post #15 mate.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/483378-desert-gives-up-one-rafs-finest.html

[DH106]

Fair do's.
Let's wait & see for the identification details then.

[Load Toad]

Well, lifted from the other thread: Original Kittyhawk HS-B Discovered > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/357/language/en-CA/Original-Kittyhawk-HS-B-Discovered.aspx)

[DH106]

Looks like I was wrong Load Toad :-(

Although there is no sign of the gear legs anywhere close to the wreck (just a solitary tyre), the tail wheel is retractable and clearly in the 'down' position.

[Load Toad]

No worries.

On many thread on many forums there are people surmising all sorts of things which are either far fetched or just plain picky 'Why is the canopy closed but broken..?' etc.

For freaks sake a P-40 crashed after some emergency in the middle of the desert and the pilot may or may not have made it out alive - yet people assume that some sort of 'perfect checklist' for crashing, leaving the 'plane and then surviving must have been followed.

I'm just bloody amazed and frankly excited that a P-40 that crashed in WWII has been found in the desert & hopefully will be recovered & exhibited.

I'm fairly certain that the pilot didn't think 'Right - survived the crash - must leave the switches in the right positions because when the internet is invented folk are going to nit pick over this no end.'

[currawong]

If it is ET574....

Flight of two ferrying battle damaged aircraft from LG-09 to LG-100 for repairs. 30-40 min flight.

Once airbourne ET574 gear would not retract.

Also, aircraft seen to take up a track approx 90 degrees to what would have been expected.

Attempts to contact by radio ineffective. Other attempts to signal including by hand ineffective.

Second aircraft forced to break away and head the right direction. Arrived at LG-100 1 hr 50 mins later.

ET574 not seen again till now.

[mickjoebill]

Google Earth anyone?


Mickjoebill

[stepwilk]

Google Earth anyone?

And you don't think a thousand of us, or more, haven't already tried that? What are we, stupid?

[TEEEJ]

One of the guys involved with finding the P-40 has posted the coordinates. The post also contains a link to additional images.

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - P-40 from Sahara (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showpost.php?p=1885833&postcount=701)

[Load Toad]

Darn it - Street View doesn't seem to have got there yet!

[Herod]

The co-ordinates have been removed; wisely I think.

[JP1]

Is there any news yet on the fate of the pilot??

[Load Toad]

From recent pictures I've seen on another forum the aircraft is already suffering; been shot at, plexiglas broken, bits torn off.
Sad. May not be much left to recover. It certainly doesn't seem to be being protected.

[Peter-RB]

Big story in the Daily Mail today Friday the 11th May, so looks like the Arabs will be selling it on E bay shortly.

Peter R-B
Lancashire

[Sprogget]

And you don't think a thousand of us, or more, haven't already tried that? What are we, stupid? Judging by your posts, yes, frankly. Judgmental to boot.

[corsair]

The so called bullet holes are nothing of the sort:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/10/article-2142300-1304CEE0000005DC-958_470x423.jpgThat's clearly flak damage, the reason the aircraft was being ferried in the first place. That's unless someone got inside the fuselage with guns of varying calibre and shot out of it.

[Above The Clouds]

Google Earth anyone


If you look carefully at the last picture of the instruments and the last tuned in ADF freq, back plot from the initial point of departure using the g/s from the frozen DME indicator and time from the original ATD you should be able to pin point it fairly closely in the 10,000,000 square miles of sand :rolleyes: come on really google earth get real :p

[Above The Clouds]

stepwilk
And you don't think a thousand of us, or more, haven't already tried that?
What are we, stupid?


If you really have that much time on your hands to search the desert using google earth that is 3-5 years out of date for an aircraft that crashed 70+ years ago, then yes you are my friend.

[FlightPathOBN]

PS

Since writing this small story, it seems that speculation as to the identity of this aircraft has settled around Kittyhawk ET574, lost while being ferried to a repair depot with the landing gear in a locked down position. Until this can be confirmed we will not speculate as to the identity and fate of the pilot until it is assured that his identity is positive and his family notified. Richard Allnutt and I have played with a couple of the photos to try to bring out the serial number on the back of the aircraft. On the right side, we were able to distinguish a letter “T”, a numeral “4” and part of the numeral “7”. On the left side, we can barely see the remains of a letter “E”. With these clues, we are quite certain that this will finally be identified as ET 574.

Since the discovery, the wreck has been seriously vandalized - a travesty the whole aviation world seems unable to stop. The perspex has been smashed out, bullet holes appear in the cowling and other forms of damage and theft seem to be underway.

PPS

Now that every news agency is mentioning Flight Sergeant Dennis Copping's name, we will now put it in this article. We have know since we first put this story out that is was most certainly Copping, a 24 year old son of a British dentist who went missing while ferrying this aircraft in 1942. Stocky Edwards mentions Copping in his book Kittyhawk Pilot. There are now rumours that the RAF and the Brits will try to find Copping's remains. This will undoubtedly be a difficult task.

Original Kittyhawk HS-B Discovered > Vintage Wings of Canada (http://www.vintagewings.ca/VintageNews/Stories/tabid/116/articleType/ArticleView/articleId/357/language/en-CA/Original-Kittyhawk-HS-B-Discovered.aspx)

[currawong]

I concur Jazz Hands.

Have seen many things online I know to be real that most write off as being simply impossible, CGI, or models, photoshop etc etc.

Perhaps if that sort of thing is the extent of ones experience perhaps that is all one expects to see....

[gingernut]

covered on itv news tonight.

[skytrain10]

Well said Jazz Hands. It seems that whenever a photo of something that is considered relatively unlikely appears, the first assumption is that it's a fake rather than believe in what we are seeing. Not necessarily applicable to this thread but it is interesting to note that those that clearly believe something is a fake go terribly quiet when it is demonstrated otherwise http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/smile.gif

[AdamFrisch]

Video/stills of wreckage here.

WW2 Kittyhawk aircraft discovered in the Western desert after 70 years. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wQepSizX26o)

[sharksandwich]

He poses proudly in his RAF uniform and also looks down from the cockpit of his Second World War fighter plane, perhaps ready for a mission against the Desert Fox himself, Erwin Rommel.

These are the first pictures of 24-year-old Flight Sergeant Denis Copping, the wartime pilot who crash-landed his plane in the Sahara and then walked off across the sands to his death.

His story came to light last week when pictures of his Kittyhawk P-40 were published. The battered but well-preserved wreckage was found in the Western Sahara – 70 years after the plane came to grief. It was believed that Flt Sgt Copping had no surviving relatives, but The Mail on Sunday found his nephew, whose family album contains these poignant photographs.

William Pryor-Bennett revealed that, until now, the fate of his uncle had been a mystery because all the family had been told officially was that he was 'missing in action'.





http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/05/13/article-2143592-130DEFAD000005DC-56_964x640.jpg Poignant: Flight Sergeant Denis Copping in his RAF uniform aged 24, just days before he went missing








My Uncle Denis, pilot of the plane time forgot: First pictures of the man who crash-landed in his plane in the Sahara and then walked off across the sands to his death | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2143592/My-Uncle-Denis-pilot-plane-time-forgot-First-pictures-man-crash-landed-plane-Sahara-walked-sands-death.html)

[JP1]

I too, like most people, was interested in the human element to this story. Looking at the photos it's quite poignant to think that the last person to manipulate the flight control was the RAF pilot himself, and knowing that his situation was impossible is a difficult thought to contemplate.

I was keen to find a photo of the pilot so that in some ways its completes the story of this human tragedy and now we have some. Unfortunately the comments of some of the SUN readers shows that some people are truly ignorant of life.

"Maybe he should have used the parachute for it's intended purpose and not to make a tent"

"the plane should be left wehere it is, or be mowed to egyptian air museum. that is egypt history as well. or sell it for good money .....and what he was doing there in the first place. as far as i know from my geografy lesons egypt is not part of the "united kingdom"

"Out dated crappy aircraft in 1942"


There are some really sad t**ts in this world.

[Lightning Mate]

"Maybe he should have used the parachute for it's intended purpose and not to
make a tent"

"the plane should be left wehere it is, or be mowed to
egyptian air museum. that is egypt history as well. or sell it for good money
.....and what he was doing there in the first place. as far as i know from my
geografy lesons egypt is not part of the "united kingdom"

"Out dated
crappy aircraft in 1942"

I could not agree more.

However, some of my university students speak and write just like that, and they are studying to be airline pilots!!!

[SpringHeeledJack]

Looking at his photo, it makes it all the more poignant to see the face of the poor soul who wandered off with little chance of surviving in that remote region. Also it's hard to believe that he was only 24 at the time, he comes across as in his 40's due to the style of the time.

P.s, shouldn't his wings be on the opposite side of his chest ?



SHJ

[Airclues]

P.s, shouldn't his wings be on the opposite side of his chest ?


The photo is printed correctly in the printed version of the DM. It is only the on-line version that has it reversed.

Dave

[Fareastdriver]

For those who do not read the military thread they have found the pilot.

[Planemike]

I think it would be more correct to say some human remains have been located. They have not yet definitely been confirmed as being those of Flt Sargeant Denis Copping.

Planemike

[November4]

The Oct - Dec 2012 issue of Air Mail, the RAFA magazine has a 4 page article about this aircraft

[Airclues]

Mystery over WWII airman who went missing in desert: Family devastated after being told bones found near downed craft cannot be tested for his DNA | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2321443/Mystery-WWII-airman-went-missing-desert-Family-devastated-told-bones-near-downed-craft-tested-DNA.html)

[sharksandwich]

I wish this plane could be moved to the uk.

[awiii]

27.397891, 27.629221
Use Flashearth.com as google earth does not have the resolution.

[Danny42C]

Lightning mate (#5),

Sadly, it's all too real, the P-40 was found in the Sahara a few years ago. The pilot died miserably of thirst, his body was found a short distance away.

I wrote a Post about the pic at the time on "Pilots Brevet" - can't trace it now.

Danny.

[Wander00]

Is this the aircraft reported in The Times as having the restoration botched by the Egyptians?

[rich34glider]

that's what's being widely reported

[Heathrow Harry]

Times story pretty much lifted from PPrune thread

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/483378-desert-gives-up-one-raf-s-finest.html

[Jhieminga]

See here for the end result of the 'restoration': https://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?126933-P-40-From-Sahara-Dennis-Copping-Merged-And-Reinstated&p=2424664#post2424664