Carry On Baggage - What A Mess

[hval]

I was thinking about the number of carry on bags I have for different airlines. Where possible I travel with carry on baggage only.

I decided to create a spreadsheet of sizes and weights for a number of airlines. The data is current as of Wednesday 18th April 2012. There are 67 sets of data. Where available I have included data for each class.

All I can say is what a wide variation in allowed weights, sizes of bags and number of bags. How on Earth can anyone who travels often not have a minimum of about eight bags.

To summarise: -

Length (Cm) Width (Cm) Depth (Cm) Max. Weight (Kg)
Max 61 53 30 24
Min 40 25 18 5
Mean 54.8 38.3 23.0 11.2

I feel that airlines and aircraft manufacturers really should get together and come to a decision (e.g. small aircraft = size A; medium aircraft = Size B; Large Aircraft = Size C). I do realise that I generalise, but is there any reason for airlines with the same aircraft having different locker sizes?

[Hotel Tango]

Totally agree about this. However, I think it should be one size & weight for all a/c as many pax (even regulars) wouldn't know what type they're going to fly on anyway. There's also the change of gauge on multi sector routes to consider.

[Jarvy]

Its easy really, only allow a lap top bag in the cabin. Everything else check in.
Its becoming silly over here as people seem to get away with taking anything of any size in the cabin.
Head down waiting for incoming!

[jabird]

Its becoming silly over here as people seem to get away with taking anything of any size in the cabin.

They are doing so because it has become so expensive to shove these bags in the hold.

Well if you want to keep it simple, you could just stick to flying Ryanair. One bag, no appendages, stuff in your duty free, no exceptions.

One fleet too, most of Europe covered and now including some "proper" airports too.

Edit: Mr O'Leary did not pay me €10 to write this reply.

[ducks for cover] :mad::mad::mad:

[Metro man]

Last time I flew BA they had a 23 kg allowance on hand luggage, size limits also applied.

British Airways - Hand baggage (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/bagcabin/public/en_sg)

Obviously cheaper for them to have passengers carry as much as possible in the cabin rather than have to pay for the cost of getting baggage from the check in counter at departure through to the baggage belt on arrival.

Avoids lost luggage and the passengers get out of the airport quicker.

[PAXboy]

jabirdThey are doing so because it has become so expensive to shove these bags in the hold.Uummmm, I don't think so!!! As I understand it, the first surge in cabin baggage was when Hub-and-Spoke operations really got going. Since so many pax found that their bags did not make the connection - they started taking them in the cabin.

This beahviour then spread because the carriers did not stop people doing it for very sound commercial reasons. This very quickly became the 'SOP' of all pax to be able to take more weight than allowed.

Then the LCCs came along with new rules and capitalised on existing behaviour. Some wanting pax to check in the bags and others wanting them to not check in bags.

I know, I'm old and been paxing for too long. All those wasted weeks of my life watching pax in airports and aircraft ... :8

[ExXB]

In the good old days IATA had a standard for carry-on baggage. The vast majority of airlines, IATA or not, applied these standards because ... well it was a standard. However the competition authorities (led by DG-COMP in Brussels) saw this as being anti-competitive, the theory being the standard would prevent airlines who wanted to give a higher allowance from doing so.

So IATA no longer sets a standard and you've got an unholy mess, but you do have competition.

Same for hold baggage the 20kg (or 2 pieces imposed by the US government in its markets) standard has gone the way of the 'Spruce Goose'.

In some case the alliances have limited immunity to discuss these matters but that is market limited. e.g. LH/UA or BA/AA or DL/AF could talk about a common standard to apply to connecting flights between alliance members between the US and Europe. However their immunity does not extend to connecting passengers travelling between Canada or Mexico or etc. to Europe. Applying a jointly agreed standard could be considered to be anti-competitive (and it would be) by the Canadian, Mexican, etc. authorities. So how do you apply a standard that only applies to local passengers and not to (some) connecting passengers?

Keeps the lawyers rich.

In this competitive market it would be nice if an airline applied the same rules to flights to and from the same point. Case in hand from Bristol EZY allows 1 piece only (their standard rule) plus one standard duty-free bag. From Geneva to Bristol it's one piece only, no exception for duty-free. At check-in in Geneva lots of arguments (I was allowed 2 when I flew in) and repacking (Fed up Swissport people told to enforce the rule allowing no exceptions)

[hval]

The reasons I travel with carry on baggage only are: -

a) have had baggage go missing

b) have had baggage damaged

c) have had baggage opened and items removed

d) Have no desire to hang around a carousel for a long wait

e) is easier to get around

f) don't get hassled by porters at Jo'burg

I do not carry one of those extra large bags that some other people do. I always attempt to ensure I have the correct sized bag, or something smaller. My most used item is a snugpak 25 litre rucsac with no side pockets.

[Jarvy]

Ok then, lastest figures for one airline over here are that 99% of hold baggage arives with the passenger. All have suffered some damage its the nature of the beast I'm afraid.
The last few times I have flown my luggage has been going round on the corousel before me.
Never in 30 years of airline travel have I had my luggage opened or anything gone missing.
But I have been delayed by a passenger breaking an overhead locker whist trying to fit his families over sized bags in, delayed for 45 minutes. Have seen half way through loading a flight the cabin staff having to stop people bringing anything bigger than a laptop bag due to too much hand luggage.
Have also seen cabin crew putting passengers luggage in the lockers at the back of a single aisle aircraft, this really helps with the unloading!
Rant over, can I have my medication now!!!!

[hval]

Jarvy,

Your statistics may well be correct. unfortunately, as I have a tendency to go to some slightly unusual places it does happen more often than one might expect. Either that or me and fellow colleagues are extremely unlucky. I remember one time in Angola for instance... Well, that is where we were going. Baggage for two of the team ended up in the USA. They had to survive six weeks in what that had for carry on baggage.

I agree totally with your rant about oversized bags. It makes it extremely difficult for those of us who do travel with correctly sized bags to get our kit in to overhead lockers. I have seen me have my bag tested for size, yet some other passenger on the same flight get on board with a bag which was as large as a case that should have gone in the hold.

Weight wise I will nearly always be within allowed weight, or will be close to it (i.e. less than 0.5 kg over); it depends upon the airlines scales. I am often asked to put my rucsack on the scales to ensure it is within limits.

[PAXboy]

Jarvy's experience is similar tomy own and any delayed bags have caught up with me. I think this thread demonstrates clearly that the Pax have 'won' (more in the cabin) which means other pax have lost!

Competition is neither neat nor standard! The chances of a new standard baggage size/weight/pieces is Zero.

[riverrock83]

Ok then, lastest figures for one airline over here are that 99% of hold baggage arives with the passenger. All have suffered some damage its the nature of the beast I'm afraid.
The last few times I have flown my luggage has been going round on the corousel before me.
Never in 30 years of airline travel have I had my luggage opened or anything gone missing.


Well it sounds like you are very lucky then, or Europe is just really bad.

I don't fly as much as I used to. However, my current record is a 1 in 3 chance of having no issues through Heathrow Airport - either a delay or my bag not making the flight.

I used to commute each week to Maastrict, Holland (KLM going Glasgow - Schipol - Maastrict) and I used to chase my bag around Europe. By the time it was time to go back to Holland again, my bag would just be getting to Glasgow, so the airline had to send it back to Holland... I stopped taking hold baggage after my bag didn't make the connection 3 weekends running. If everything ran ontime the connection time wasn't bad, but any delays and I could run faster than my bag through Schipol airport...

I now always travel with enough in my hand luggage to last me a couple of days at my destination.

[Jarvy]

I've only lived in the US for 3 1/2 years so have travelled in Europe.
I just wish the airlines would be clear and actually measure cabin baggage.
A standard would be good and the better your cabin the more you should be allowed.
Mrs J used to commute to Germany weekly for over a year and her luggage was delayed once, not a bad record.She was given an over night kit and her bag arrived early the next morning by courier.
I pay $25 to check my case but I know that when I book a cheap ticket, thats why its cheap.

[hval]

I was trying to put all my data here, but am unable to create a table with BBCode.

I thought it would be interesting for all to view and to comment. What I have done is to paste the data in CSV format. If you copy the data below, paste it in to a text file document and then save as a CSV file you should then be able to import it in to a spreadsheet.

I notice I have missed off many airlines I should have included. I do apologise for this. I shall add some of these if/ when I am able to. I shall make a note if and when I do update the data below.

Current data is REV A as of 2012/04/19/20:58. SAS, Norwegian and Swiss data added


Airline,Class Flown,Length (Cm),Width (Cm),Depth (Cm),Max. Weight (Kg),Max. Total Length (Cm),No. Of Carry on Items/
RAF (BZN) - Operational,,60,53,25,9,,One bag only. On a tristar all bags handed in. On operational flights allowed ECBA and Helmet will be placed under the seat
BA,N/A,56,45,25,23,,one piece of hand baggage plus a laptop*or*handbag. Your laptop or handbag is up to the dimensions 45cm x 36cm x 20cm
KLM,Economy,55,35,25,12,,
KLM,Business,55,35,25,18,,"and one bag smaller than 45 x 20 x 35 cm. Your hand baggage, including accessories, may not exceed 18 kg"
FLY Be,N/A,50,35,23,10,,
Loganair,N/A,40,35,18,6,,
Thompson,N/A,55,40,20,5,,
Thomas Cook,N/A,55,40,20,5,,1 item only
Lufthansa,N/A,55,40,20,8,,First and Business Class you may take two pieces of hand luggage and their contents on board with you. Economy Class passengers are only permitted one piece of hand luggage.
Cathay,First Class,56,36,23,15,,"you may carry onboard one of the following items free of charge: small handbag, small backpack, small briefcase, laptop bag"
Cathay,Business Class,56,36,23,10,,"you may carry onboard one of the following items free of charge: small handbag, small backpack, small briefcase, laptop bag"
Cathay,Premium Economy,56,36,23,7,,"you may carry onboard one of the following items free of charge: small handbag, small backpack, small briefcase, laptop bag"
Cathay,Economy,56,36,23,7,,"you may carry onboard one of the following items free of charge: small handbag, small backpack, small briefcase, laptop bag"
Air Transat,Economy,51,40,23,5,,
Air Transat,Club Economy,51,40,23,15,,
SAA,Business,52,40,23,16kg . 8kg each,,Two items
SAA,Economy,52,40,23,8,,One item
American Airlines,,56,36,23,?,114,One item plus one personal item
Continental,,N/A,N/A,N/A,,114,"can also carry one personal item, such as a briefcase, small laptop or handbag.*"
Easy jet,,56,45,25,Within Reason,,One Item
Ryan Air,,55,40,20,10,,One item
Monarch,,56,45,25,10,,One item
Iberia,,56,35,23,Not Stated,114,One item plus one personal item
Kenyan,,55,38,20,10,,One item plus one personal item
Delta,,56,36,23,Not Stated,115,One item plus one personal item
Air France (Intercontinental),Economy,55,35,25,12,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.)"
Air France (Intercontinental),Premium Economy,55,35,25,18,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.) plus 1 small baggage item that respects the following maximum dimensions:
45 cm (l) x 20 cm (w) x 35 cm (h)"
Air France (Intercontinental),Business Class,55,35,25,18,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.) plus 1 small baggage item that respects the following maximum dimensions:
45 cm (l) x 20 cm (w) x 35 cm (h)"
Air France (Intercontinental),First Class,55,35,25,18,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.) plus 1 small baggage item that respects the following maximum dimensions:
45 cm (l) x 20 cm (w) x 35 cm (h)"
Air France (Europe),Economy,55,35,25,12,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.)"
Air France (Europe),Premium Economy,55,35,25,12,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.)"
Air France (Europe),Business,55,35,25,18,,"One bag plus 1 accessory (handbag, notebook computer, camera, etc.) plus 1 small baggage item that respects the following maximum dimensions:
45 cm (l) x 20 cm (w) x 35 cm (h)"
Virgin Atlantic,N/A,56,36,23,6,,One item only
Virgin Holidays,Premium Economy/ Economy,56,36,23,6,,"One piece plus A handbag or purse, an overcoat, an umbrella (pointed or/and sharp prohibited) or walking stick, a small camera, reading matter for the flight, infants food for consumption in flight, a small amount of duty free goods."
Virgin Holidays ,Upper Class,56,36,23,16 kg. No bag to way more than 12 kg,,"Two Pieces, plus a handbag or purse, an overcoat, an umbrella (pointed or/and sharp prohibited) or walking stick, a small camera, reading matter for the flight, infants food for consumption in flight, a small amount of duty free goods."
Air Canada,N/A,55,40,23,10,,One bag plus one personal article of a maximum size 43 cm x 33 cm x 16 cm
Aer Lingus,N/A,55,40,20,10,,"Additional small items (camera, personal stereo, overcoat, handbag or laptop) are allowed."
Aer Lingus (Regional),N/A,48,36,21,7,,One Item
American Airlines,N/A,56,35,23,,,"one small carry-on bag plus one personal item per passenger as long as the carry-on bag fits comfortably in the sizer without being forced and does not exceed overall dimensions of 45 inches (length + width + height). Personal item - includes: purse, briefcase, laptop bag OR a similar item such as a tote that does not exceed 114 CM ( length+width+height) and must fit under the seat in front of you."
JetBlue,N/A,61,43,25,,,"one carry-on bag plus one personal item, such as a purse, briefcase or laptop computer. At least one of the items should be stowed under the seat in front of you.
"
US Airways,N/A,56,36,23,18,,"one carry-on bag and one personal item. Personal items include a purse, briefcase or laptop bag."
United Airlines,N/A,56,35,23,,,one bag plus one personal item
Southwest Airlines,N/A,61,40.6,25,,,"one bag plus one small, personal item. Personal-type items include purses, briefcases, cameras, food containers, or laptops "
Delta Airlines,N/A,56,36,23,,,one bag and one personal item
Frontier,N/A,61,39,24,15.8,,one carry-on bag and one personal item which fits underneath the seat
Alaska,N/A,61,43,25,,,One bag plus one personal item
Etihad,Diamond First Class,60,35,20,12,,Two bags. Total maximum weight of 12kg
Etihad,Pearl Business Class,60,35,20,12,,Two bags. Total maximum weight of 12kg
Etihad,Coral Economy Class,60,35,20,7,,One bag
Middle Eastern Airlines,N/A,40,25,25,10,,"One bag. On all international flights the following objects may be taken free of charge as additional hand baggage: 1 coat or wrap, 1 handbag, 1 umbrella or walking stick, 1wheelchair ,a pair of crutches ,1small camera, 1 pair of binoculars, "
El Al,Economy Class,56,45,25,8,,One bag
El Al,Business Class,56,45,25,20,,You are entitled to two pieces of hand luggage weighing a total of 20 kg – one piece of hand luggage weighing up to 16 kg and another weighing up to 4 kg for a portable computer or attaché case
El Al,First Class,56,45,25,24,,You are entitled to two pieces of hand luggage weighing a total of 24 kg – one piece of hand luggage weighing up to 16 kg and another weighing up to 8 kg
Emirates,First & Business Class,55,38,20,12,,two pieces of carry-on baggage: one briefcase plus either one handbag or one garment bag. The briefcase may not exceed 45 x 35 x 20 cm; the handbag may not exceed 55 x 38 x 20 cm; the garment bag can be no more than 20 cm thick when folded. The total combined weight of both pieces may not be more than 12 kg.
Emirates,Economy Class,55,38,20,7,,One bag
Gulf Air,Falcon Gold,55,40,30,9,,One bag plus one briefcase - 45 x 40 x 30 cm. Total weight is 9kg
Gulf Air,Economy Class,45,40,30,6,,One bag
Kuwait Airways,N/A,56,36,23,7,,One bag
Oman Air,N/A,51,41,23,7,,One bag
Royal Jordanian,Crown Class,51,41,23,14,,Two bags (7 kg each) plus one small item
Royal Jordanian,Economy Class,51,41,23,7,,One bag plus one small item
Royal Brunei Airlines,Business Class,55,38,20,12,,One bag plus one briefcase (55 x 38 x 20 cms). Weight of each bag must not exceed 7kg
Royal Brunei Airlines,Economy Class,55,38,20,7,,One bag Plus duty free purchases in reasonable quantities
Singapore Airlines,Suites,55,40,20,14,,"Two bags, 7kg each"
Singapore Airlines,First Class,55,40,20,14,,"Two bags, 7kg each"
Singapore Airlines,Business Class,55,40,20,14,,"Two bags, 7kg each"
Singapore Airlines,Economy Class,55,40,20,7,,One bag
SAS,Business & Economy Extra,55,40,23,16,,"Two pieces of cabin baggage to/from Asia and US, including connecting flights*(if the aircraft type admits it). One*piece per passenger on all other routes. Each bag to weigh a maximum of 8kg."
SAS,Economy,55,40,23,8,,One bag
Norwegian,,55,40,23,10,,"one item of hand baggage per person in addition to one small personal item, e.g., a small laptop or small handbag. When travelling to/from Dubai, your hand baggage*must not exceed 8kg in total weight"
Swiss,First,55,40,23,16,,2 bags. 8kg each
Swiss,Business,55,40,23,16,,2 bags. 8 kg each
Swiss,Economy,55,40,23,8,,1 bag
,Max,61,53,30,24,,
,Min,40,25,18,5,,
,Mean,54.8,38.4,23.0,11.2,,

[PAXboy]

Bingo! thanks hval, that imported easily. Very neat and valuable.

[ATNotts]

The whole issue of the amount of baggage SLF are permitted to bring into the cabin is becoming ludicrous.

Before Christmas 2011 I had the misfortune to be flying on a Swiss RJ100 from Nürnberg to Zürich on a Saturday morning. It was a full load, and the shear quantity of baggage that was being brought on to the aircraft, which not only filled the (totally inadequate) bins on the RJ, but also wound up be stowed between the seats, was such that in the event of an emergency I cannot honestly see how half the passengers could have escaped within the prescribed time. The crew did their best to try and separate passengers from their beloved bags, so they could be stowed mosre sensibly, but i'm afraid to little avail!

Is it going to take a fatal accident requiring evacuation before the authorities act to limit properly the amount of nonsense being allowed in the cabins of aircraft?

[slip and turn]

When I was in Tallinn a few months ago, the duty free was openly promoting the sale of cases of beer for carrying on.

Even Ryanair are not immune - I hear some Spanish airports force them to accept duty free purchases in addition to the Ryanair 10kg one cabin bag's your lot else pay us an extra €50 allowance.

[PAXboy]

I agree, ATNotts, that the cabin storage of the 146 is small (largely due to the high wing deisgn) but it was designed in the early 1980s and production started in 1983. Of course, there were later developments but the basic design is naturally unchanged.

My guess is that, 30 years ago, they guessed that people would be having small carry on bags. Laptop computers simply did not exist, leave alone the other issues of connections and so on that we are discussing here.

[edi_local]

You hear it at check in all the time:

"Can I just check the size/weight of your carry on baggage?"

"It's the standard size/I take it on all my flights/I took it last week on this route/I am not checking in my valuables/I don't want it to get lost/I have a tight connection on the ground at the other end/I am a gold card holder, I can take what I want..."

Then there's the people who knowingly ignore the restriction sand check in online and waltz up to the gate with huge bags, either slipping them by the gate staff or kicking up a fuss about them being taken off them at such a late stage in the game, causing a delay to the boarding process.

Every excuse in the book is used so that people don't part with this hand luggage, but at the end of the day even if every passenger brings a small trolley bag which meets the airlines requirements perfectly there will still be problems on board the aircraft. Until someone steps in and draws a line which all airlines must stick to then we will continue to see confusion and delays due to hand baggage for years to come. The maximum restrictions currently in place are far too generous and should be bought down and then applied to everyone. Nothing more than a laptop bag or small backpack/holdall which is easily squashed to fit in to an overhead, not some rigid suitcase thing. Imagine a 23KG bag falling out of the overhead locker on a bumpy landing...that'd kill someone. :mad:


Edit:

Airline has ridiculously large cabin bag allowance-->experiences delays with cabin baggage problems on departure-->passenger satisfaction falls due to delays-->airline gets bad press due to poor passenger satisfaction-->Airline changes policy to only permit more sensible sizes-->passengers baggage checked more closely at gates and at check in-->causes longer lines, which cause delays and causes more bags to be taken off of passengers-->causing more harassment for ground staff-->passengers complain more about what they are having taken off them-->airline customer satisfaction falls-->airline gets bad press for taking peoples hand baggage off passengers (cue sob stories in the mail)-->airline re-introduces old policy of take whatever you want on board-->repeat process from the start!

Airlines, as usual, are damned if they do and damned if they don't. :}

[PAXboy]

Yes edi_local, that is EXACTLY the Catch-22 the carriers are in. It is further complicated by numerous Govts and their CAAs (or equivalent) and sometimes the military making arbitrary changes. Depending on the country of origin they may all be one and the same!

It is my long held view that there is NO way out of this loop. The god of 'competition is good' reigns supreme in the West and most of the East too. Carriers know that pax WILL change if they can get 'more for less' on other carriers. In the Biz cabins, it has long been neccessary to turn a blind eye for much of it.

But if you REALLY want to see what people bring into the cabin (or want to check in) then ask around in the African forum! :ooh:

[Tableview]

edi local excellent posting and you are right. It is nevertheless incumbent on the airlines, who have allowed this to happen, to find a solution.

It is not reasonable to expect passengers to check in valuables ( http://www.pprune.org/passengers-slf-self-loading-freight/483207-your-nicest-airline-experiences.html#post7148349). My solution would be to charge for hand baggage over a certain size and/or weight. Then we come onto definitions of what is 'reasonable' for the 'average' passenger, and we know that no passenger in the history of aviation has ever been 'average' or 'reasonable', nor will this ever come to pass!

Airlines, as usual, are damned if they do and damned if they don't

Yep.

[EastMids]

I'll freely admit that when I travel, I push the boundaries on hand baggage both in terms of weight and pieces. Why? Because I often travel with £10k+ worth of camera gear which I need to use when I get where I'm going. When an airline commits to: (a) not lose it even temporarily, (b) not allow it to be stolen, and (c) not damage it in any way - then I'll happily check my 20kg+/£10k+ of camera gear because I really don't like to lugging it around airports and onto and off of aircraft. I've learned that being a high-tier member in the frequent flyer program helps - airlines typically don't tend to pick fights with their better customers and are far less rigourous with carry on checks with premium/frequent-flyer checkin and boarding - so I try to stick to one alliance and stay a status-passenger. And quite simply, if an airline tries to inch- and pound-pinch with carry on bags I won't travel with them again - their loss not mine.

Mine my be an extreme example and I'm not suggesting I or anyone else who carries valuable gear should get special treatment or be an exception, but the process needs to support our requirements to take valuable stuff with us rather than just take a simplistic and naive one [low] size and weight fits all approach. I've had checked bags not turn up for several days on a number of occasions (FRA, MAN, MXP, DXB, KUL, BHX, MAD, come to mind), I've had contents taken from my checked bag at least once (GVA-FRA-BHX) and the items were never recovered, and I've had my bag damaged several times. Airlines have it within their remit to sort the carry on baggage problem out by providing a more reliable, quicker and secure checked baggage service - and I'd happily pay a reasonable fee to check my stuff should they do so - but they can't or don't want to do it. Until they do, I for one - and I suspect many others - will continue to haul stuff onto aeroplanes and yes, sorry, we will continue to argue with check in and gate staff if necessary too, particularly if we're close to but none the less within the rules.

The bottom line is - the checked baggage process is broken and that's why there's so much carry on. Until the airlines fix the problems with the broken process, passengers will continue to try to carry on as much as possible.

Andy

[PAXboy]

Well stated EastMids. Putting in that the checked baggage system is broken is a key factorand one that I (and probably others) had overlooked.

[hval]

EastMids,

You could save yourself all that trouble of having to hump around that D4, and various Nikkor 16mm, 80mm, 500mm and 600mm lenses, filters and chargers by using the iPhone. After all, aren't we all told that it is just as good, if not better, than these expensive toys? :}

Actually, I can understand, and sympathise, withyour problem as I suffered from the thefts, broken bags, lost bags scarios quite a lot as well. Is why I only take carry on baggage.

I carry a Nikon plus one zoom lens. Don't even take a monopod or gorilla pod. The Mrs carrys the Panasonic GH-1 for videoing. The GH-1 is crap as a stills camera in low light. Would love to take an additional few lenses, but I do stay within weight and size limits. But then photography is not my job.

May I be really nosey and enquire as to what you photograph for your work?

[Jarvy]

The checked in bag system is not broken!!
It works 99% of the time, its just the 1% that seem to come on here to justify the reason that they should be allowed to carry on what they like.
Carry on luggage is very rarely weighed, do any of you know that overhead lockers have a weight limit?
Also with more and more people filling the overhead lockers with bigger and heavier bags does this affect the c of g?
As was said earlier until there is a major incident nothing will get done.

[EastMids]

The checked in bag system is not broken!!

It IS broken - tell me which airline is prepared to guarantee that it will replace whatever is checked in, regardless of it's value, if it's delayed lost damaged or stolen whilst it's in their care (i.e. from checkin to reclaim). No airline will. Why? Because they know the process isn't 100% robust, reliable and secure, and they won't carry the financial risk of guaranteeing that any loss or damange will be fully compensated. Don't try hiding behind some archaic convention limiting baggage loss compensation - that's just a useful excuse airlines use to avoid having to tackle or the issue head on. And don't tell me about insurance either - when it's the airline's fault it shouldn't be at the passenger's expense to have insurance coverage, and in the case of professionals travelling with valuable equipment insurance won't kick in quickly enough to replace items needed whilst the traveller is working away.

Carry on luggage is very rarely weighed, do any of you know that overhead lockers have a weight limit?

Yes... And again, if the airlines fixed the checked baggage problems such that passengers could be more confident their valuable checked items arrived quickly, safely, without loss damage or pilferage then a lot more of it would be checked. I'd far rather check my heavy carry on, but I can't - there's too much risk of loss or damage. You've obviously not watched airline baggage handling Jarvy - I have, during my time in the industry. Leaving aside it going missing for a moment, just on the grounds of how checked bags can be THROWN AROUND by handlers, there's no way I'm going to check in a £6k camera lens - those things need to be handled with kid gloves and airline baggage handling simply doesn't work in that way right now.

Also with more and more people filling the overhead lockers with bigger and heavier bags does this affect the c of g?

Overhead locker baggage weight will have no effect on CofG unless that weight is distributed unevenly throughout the cabin. If you're suggesting first and business class carry ons weigh more than economy carry ons, maybe CofG will be moved forwards - but the lower density of seating up front compared to the back in all likelihood cancels any effect like that out.

As was said earlier until there is a major incident nothing will get done.

Maybe, but that's the airlines fault, not the passengers fault. If the airlines made the checked baggage more robust, reliable and safe, far more passengers would check baggage and reduce what they drag into aeroplane cabins.

Andy

[hval]

Jarvy,

I think you will find that only one person has said he carrys too much on board - and that person has good reason.

I know I stick to the limits. I wouldn't have spent so much time producing the spreadsheet that I have, and have about eight different carry bags to fit airline requirements. Plus the fact that I have specialised low weight gear.

In your experience you say that carry on baggage is rarely weighed. When I check in to say "Hi, I'm here to fly with you today" my carry on bag is weighed 99% of the time. Perhaps it is because I tend to use small light weight rucksacks. I do not know.

When I travelled as part of a team (globally) there were always bags going missing, being broken, or being broken in to. You can't just take an airline saying to you "I'm sure you bag will turn up, where can we deliver it to you?". Our response being "some where in the jungle / desert / offshore, but certainly no where near any where". Another one that used to happen was the fact that we travelled a lot, so the lost bag never caught up with you.

In my experience, and obviously others, the 99% that you quote is "tosh".

Your experience is obviously different.

I do believe that most of us are also aware of design limitations of overhead lockers.

I would say that the checked bag system is broken. Look at most of Africa, or even London Heathrow, or Glasgow.

[L'aviateur]

As many of the posters on here, I travel worldwide lot and having been caught out a few times, I turned to only carrying handbaggage.

On occasions, admitedly, whilst in business I've had a handcarry weighing 35kg with manuals and documents, plus laptops and necessary equipment.

One thing I quite like about the Fokker 70/100 KLM Cityhopper flights in the UK is that they allow you to leave your handcarry at the bottom of the stairs and collect it at the bottom of the stairs on arrival at AMS, and I wish more airlines would do that.

I think the worst situation for me many years back was a bag delayed, and ended up following me around South America for two weeks, arriving at each airport just after i'd left. Another bag that I gave up all hope of ever seeing again arrived a month later completely crushed. It was flat, and everything in was flat... It was like it had been steam rolled.

I've got my hand baggage down to a tee, and can carry all my necessary documents, and several sets of clothes (no longer carry jeans!) in the one handcarry.

The worst airport i've seen for baggage delays is Miami, I pity anyone meeting a international to domestic connection within 2 hours through there.

It's easy when you travel for leisure or travel only a few times a month, and you can survive a few days. But if you genuinely travel regularly, it can be a pain in the arse risking that so called 1% chance. And all that waiting around carousels adds up quickly.

That being said, I very very rarely travel low cost airlines and avoid them unless necessary, so don't know the situation onboard those.

[esa-aardvark]

In my opinion any system which only works reliably 99% of
the time is definitely broken. That's what we used to call 'normalisation of deviation'.
I once traveled with a certain
airline and didn't like the look of it's baggage tags, didn't look
strong enough or sticky enough. When challenged the check-in
staff said 'they are standard world wide'. Sure enough they came
off in transit and my baggage was only rescued due to the efforts
of the next carrier. I'm sure that someone saved his airline some
costs by purchasing cheaper tags. With other airlines you need
a knife or scissors to get the tags off. Repeat this sort of cost saving
in other areas and of course things will get lost or damaged. Not
to mention that many airports have surveillance in baggage areas
to try to stop their staff thieving.
And, yes, the overhead lockers are normally loaded far above their rather low limit.
Seems to be treated as a capacity not a load limit,
but that has been so for at least the time I have been a regular traveler, call it 40 years.

[Jarvy]

In hundreds of flights neither me or my wifes carry on bags have been measured in any way!
There will always be some who need to carry things like expensive camera gear on but maybe there should be some sort of acreditation for those.
I can only comment on the system as it affects me and the general increase in the size and weight of carry on bags over the years has got out of hand.
There just isn't room in the cheap seats for every one to take on even their allowance.
I agree that passengers who pay for the better seats should have a bit more lee way, thats one reason way we have different classes.
I can see I am banging my head against a brick wall here, so happy St.Georges day and fly safe.

[hval]

Jarvy,

It sounds as if you and your wife have been really lucky.

I think that most, if not all, of us agree with you that there is a problem with oversize carry on baggage and that it causes problems for other passengers. I would also state that we agree about the health & safety issues that you have raised as well.

One of the things I often see is my bag being weighed and measured, but only because I don't check a bag in. Staff are immediately suspicious that my bag will be overweight and too large. On the same flight I have seen numerous other people, who have checked in baggage, with Carry on bags that are significantly larger than mine, and obviously significantly heavier. Because they have checked a bag in they do no not get questioned. Is that right? Is that fair? No it is not. I can understand someone like EastMids not checking in his camera systems, but not everyone is a professional photographer.

As I said previously, it sounds as if you and your wife have been extremely lucky. I am really envious.

The other thing I hate is how you never ever get back the full amount of money that you have paid for things. Why should I lose out because of an airlines fault, or the airports fault? I pay for me and my bag/s to get some where. I don't mind delays. I do mind theft and damage due to incompetence and lack of consideration for other peoples possessions.

[EastMids]

Jarvy, don't go... I think your input into the debate is useful and for the most part, I actually agree with you. And I do think there's a problem to be solved. The big issue is that there will always be some folks - yes, me included - who claim they're the exception to the rule. Some will have "good" excuses, some won't. I don't WANT to be a special case - I just want the overall baggage process to support my travel objectives reliably and securely such that I can get where I need to go, with everything that I need to take intact and undamaged, thus allowing me to do what I need to do when I get there... I'd even pay the airline extra for that, IF they'd offer me a guarantee or at least adequate compensation (including consequential loss) if their process failed. Sadly airlines don't support those requirements through expecting me to check in valuable and delicate gear right now.

Here's some suggestions then:


Airlines should NOT be allowed to charge for checked baggage: this would, I'm sure, reduce the amount of carry-ons as more people would check bags if they didn't have to pay to check them - not with business travellers who would pay and expense, but with price-concious leisure travellers who would probably check in bags rather than carry on more often if it was free

Airlines should set a specific size and weight for carry ons, enforce it, but allow passengers to pay extra for more weight or size: travelling with valuable or delicate equipment I would pay an fee extra to take it on board, but it'd discourage the folks with a bag full of c**p from taking it onboard

If airlines truly wanted to reduce the weight of carry ons taken onboard by the likes of me travelling with expensive and delicate equipment that we're going to depend on when we get there, they should develop a secure checked baggage program - with a guarantee of secure, reliable and delicate handling AND/OR immediate appropriate compensation if anything was delayed, lost, broken or stolen. Again, I'd pay a reasonable amount for such a service



You could save yourself all that trouble of having to hump around that D4, and various Nikkor 16mm, 80mm, 500mm and 600mm lenses, filters and chargers... May I be really nosey and enquire as to what you photograph for your work?

hval... Nikon??? :yuk: Nasty business!!! := Think the C-word! :O

I write and photograph for a major agency/publication which is, ironically, in the aviation/airspace arena!

Andy

[Jarvy]

I'm still here and find myself agreeing with you Eastmids.
When you could checkin bags for free much less was carried in the cabin.
I have also noticed that if you turn up at the gate with a bag too big or there is no room left in the lockers the airline checks in your bag for free.
Is this fair as I have paid to check a bag in.
Oh dear off I go again.

[hval]

Jarvy,

I agree with EastMids. Don't go. Carry on the discussion.


EastMids

Am envious of you having the job you do; well, in some ways. The pressure of getting a good photo of an aircraft that looks "different" but still shows the information that you wish to get across is not necessarily for me. Do you have a favourite aircraft for taking photographs of?

I used to be a Canon fan - all the way back to the AE-1P and Canon T90. In fact I still have my T90. Unfortunately There came a time where Canon did not produce a robust enough camera for my needs (backwoods of Africa and such like) in the price bracket I could afford, so I moved to Nikon. Nice cameras and lenses. Big shame they are so bad on their repair times. Was going to get a D800 (I want one camera that does photos and video - for weight reasons) until I realised it was a full size sensor that would mean replacing all my lenses, yet again. Also the Moire problems put me off. Will wait until the next DSLR comes out that doesn't suffer.

[edi_local]

I'm still here and find myself agreeing with you Eastmids.
When you could checkin bags for free much less was carried in the cabin.
I have also noticed that if you turn up at the gate with a bag too big or there is no room left in the lockers the airline checks in your bag for free.
Is this fair as I have paid to check a bag in.
Oh dear off I go again.

Not always the case. If you're bag is too big and is caught out then some airlines charge more at the gate to check it in compared to actually paying for a hold bag. Mainly the LCC's do this (BE, LS, FR amoung others). If you turn up with a bag that's the right size and there is no room then they will check it for free.

I have seen full service carriers charge at the gate, mainly for someone who has checked in an extra bag already and then takes the mickey by bringing yet more excess baggage to the gate.

I would say that in the event of someone having extremely valuable or delicate cabin baggage which exceeds the allowance (in the case of your camera gear, EastMids) then the airline should not force that to be checked in. They should offer to tag the bag at the gate and place it in the hold and then deliver it directly to the aircraft door upon arrival. This could be pre-arranged when booking the flight and, if the airline is that way inclined, a small fee could be taken for this service, but not as much as checking a bag in.

Anyone who has oversized baggage taken off them at the gate is not given the instant delivery option, which would make it more worthwhile paying for and give people like yourself greater piece of mind as to the treatment of your equipment. If the airline cannot accommodate your bag due to a full cabin and you have stuck to all the regulations then the door pick up should be offered for free as there is no way to predict how full a cabin will get.

Of course If someone turns up with a suitcase the size of a small car, weighing 30Kg then they should check it in regardless of what's in it as that is just taking the p!ss!

[Jarvy]

As an aside have you any tips for good pictures when I go to Oshkosh.
Now back to the subject.
So we agree on the fact that there should be an international standard for cabin baggage. I suspect my standard whould be smaller than yours, with increases for business and first.
That no airline should charge for the first checkin bag, again with incresses for the better cabins.
We also agree that there should be exceptions for certain items/professions.
So the only thing we disagree on is the state of the system. It has worked for me so we must have been lucky or just that we don't travel to certain parts of the world.
I also wish that the current standards are enforced but it seems that the current way is not to.

[edi_local]

That no airline should charge for the first checkin bag, again with incresses for the better cabins.


I know SN offer 6Kg hand baggage for b.light (economy), 8Kg for b.flex (something in the middle) and 10Kg for business class, and on long haul it's 10Kg standard, but 2 bags for Business.

That's the only one off the top of my head which has varying limits for hand baggage.

[TightSlot]

Just curious - What % success rate on checked baggage would change your mind?

99.5% - 99.9% - 99.99%?

[Tableview]

there should be exceptions for certain items/professions.

That opens a can of worms. It's unworkable and thus ultimately pointless. Isn't the work of the gate/check-in agents already difficult enough without imposing this on them.

By all means have differential allowances according to fare/class paid or even FF level but not this.

[Jarvy]

Maybe I was being kind to eastmids. Have seen some TV people at checkin with letters from the airline that allowed them to carry their camera on. So I was thinking of that sort of thing.
I have worked in and around the haulage industry most of my life so know nothing is 100%.

[sisemen]

It all turned to rat **** when they went away from these...

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQLBcMbi4BdJg9Tv9uCMZTXV1dei2m9txQ3DqZrkV9 ucmBpWUYb
to these....

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTD3ItC7RTXAaBkbBL3yLYbA5ltZSYQyBWoWkRm7Jt _jQKmLYpokA

[EastMids]

I really don't understand why airlines haven't got around to allowing different carry on baggage allowances based on (a) class of service - ok, many already do, (b) frequent flyer status, (c) extra size or weight for a fee, or (d) all of the above. They do these things with checked baggage allowances, so why not carry ons? OK, it's an extra layer of complexity at the gate, but it'd discourage the casual price sensitive traveler from trying to take their steamer trunk aboard and thus maybe alleviate a few of the problems with overhead capacity. I know I'd be prepared to pay an additional fee to take my 20kg camera bag onto an aeroplane if the only alternative was to check it in. But right now, I just can't travel with an airline that rigorously enforces lowish weight limits (e.g Virgin or low-fare carriers like Ryanair or bmibaby) because there is no mechanism to allow me to take more than their arbitrary weight onboard and as I've already explained I won't check valuable and delicate equipment. That's why I'm going to the USA with United next week - I'd rather fly British, but I know that as a frequent flyer of United, they'll be far less picky with me and my heavy carry on bag (I can use the premium checkin desks and priority boarding where they don't tend to be so picky about hand baggage) than would a UK airline with which I have no status.

Andy

[hval]

Tightslot,

Just curious - What % success rate on checked baggage would change your mind?

That's a really good question. Certainly not the 1 in 3 that used to happen to me when I checked in baggage.

The answer might be that people may be willing to accept the current situation, as long as their costs were met immediately and in full.

In the past I have had refunds that barely cover the cost of a couple of shirts, never mind everything else in the case. If I had a Haliburton Zero case I would expect the replacement to be the same, not an Antler.

There are also times where I still wouldn't put items in the hold. Losing my data and techy geek stuff would not be a good thing. Also there are times where you wouldn't know if your camera was damaged or not; or your laptop, until you got to your destination. How would the airlines react if I telephoned them 24 hours after my flight saying "you broke my camera". It's nigh on impossible getting airlines to accept responsibility for anything as it is.

[riverrock83]

A standard would be great - but it will probably never happen as competition law has now overcome it, as someone else has already said. If you want a better baggage experience - don't use a Lo-Co airline. Or so the theory goes.

I've heard that airlines like hand baggage rather than hold luggage as it reduces turn around times (quicker for people to take their own baggage off than get someone to do it for them) and reduces baggage handling costs (some contracts with handlers are essentially on a per-item basis). It also means that they can carry more non-passenger freight in the hold.

Hold baggage wise, a friend of mine who was a baggage handler told me to get a solid hard sided case. They protect whats in your bag from weight (I've seen them piled 5 bags high - that could be well over 170 kg) and being thrown around. Just make sure whats in the bag is also well padded...

Other point - it depends on what plane type as to what is an appropriate baggage size. There is a reason that FlyBe don't charge for hold baggage and have a very small hand baggage limit. However, for carriers with different plane models, that would be extremely confusing for passengers!

[edi_local]

There is a reason that FlyBe don't charge for hold baggage and have a very small hand baggage limit. However, for carriers with different plane models, that would be extremely confusing for passengers!


FlyBE do charge for hold baggage and their excess rates are amoung the highest I have encountered. In fact they were one of the first to start charging for hold baggage. They will also charge £40 at the gate if your bag does not fit in the sizer, when checked (which at EDI anyway is around 99% of the time I have used them in recent times). Also, FlyBE have 3 types of aircraft, the Dash and 2 Embraer variants.

Loganair do not charge for either, but currently being branded as FlyBE can cause confusion. If you include the various Loganair types then add a couple more aircraft in to the FlyBE mix.

[PAXboy]

The % question is good but I do not have an answer. What I know is that - once someone has experienced a serious loss (financial or sentimental) they will never trust the baggage system again - irrespective of country or carrier.

It has usually been said that the biggest problems occur when you and luggage change flights, whereas point-to-point is meant to be better. As it happens the greatest majority of my trips have been the latter. When doing multi-stop biz, then I used hand cases as I was in biz.

Airlines will NEVER offer insurance (for all the reasons given above) but also because it is not just them - the airports are part of the problem and they have proven that they (for the most part) cannot control their own staff and I mean across the globe, not just UK specific.

[esa-aardvark]

Tightslot,
back when I worked and ran a certain large-scale computer operation availability was supposed to be in the high 99.9 numbers,
don't remember exactly. For airline baggage what does 99% mean ?
For example do only 4 people on a Jumbo lose their baggage, and do
they get it back later ? For me, provided baggage is labeled internally and externally loosing it permanently is totally unacceptable. Loosing temporarily (has happened a few times) not
so bad, but should still be around 99.9% reliable. I'm sure the airline
accountants/managers would accept such a figure, but would massage their results such that it was always achieved.

[hval]

770 million people flew in the US during 2009. 1 percent of that figure is 7.7 million. At 1% that's a lot of bags.

0.1% = 770,000 people with lost baggage. That's still a lot of people who have suffered.

Remember that's 2009 for the US alone.

[Jarvy]

Lies, dam lies and satistics.
Competition on airlines, not when I look at the fares.

[PAXboy]

Just spotted this letter to The independent (UK) :

Cellos on a plane
My cello does not get drunk before boarding, does not carry hand luggage, has no ability to answer back or complain, eats very little on the flight and tends to be a rather easy passenger to deal with. Therefore could Lufthansa please explain why they changed their booking rules in February to the effect that it is now more expensive to fly alone with a cello than it is for two people to travel?

Jonathan Bloxham
Artistic Director, Northern Chords Festival
Newcastle upon Tyne

[paulc]

Am in a similar position to EastMids in that I take photographic equipment (1 camera body & 2 lenses so not a vast amount but the zoom lens is quite heavy) and a laptop with me when travelling. There is no way I would want that put in the hold.

Jarvy - have been to Oshkosh a few times - pm if you want to have a chat. Am always happy to pass on my experiences - the EAA website is a good place to check.

[EastMids]

This debate about carry on / hand baggage made me realise last night that it is this issue that causes me more stress in respect of air travel than anything else. For reasons already explained, I admit to often taking quite a weight of carry on baggage with me - it'll always fit in the sizers and if the rule is two pieces it'll only be two pieces, but if it were weighed I think a few people would at least raise an eyebrow, maybe more. I'm always happy to use the space under the seat in front of me, but one piece has to go "upstairs" and the frequently jam-packed overhead lockers can be an issue... I therefore often exhibit the classic behavior seen at boarding gates - rushing to get on early to ensure I can stow the camera or big lens, for example (fortunately having gold status in the frequent flyer program often allows me to do this legitimately), and I try to steer clear of flights on RJs. I also steer clear of some of the airlines known to have tight limits on carry on bag weights, and those known to be stringent with enforcement - Virgin comes to mind immediately, as do some of the low-fare carriers. Should some of the more draconian suggestions for limiting carry on bags postulated in this thread come to be implemented widely, I think I'd just stop travelling. Now I know that the revenue I give to airlines will hardly make a difference, but there are other people with the same concerns and issues too.

The more I think about it, I'd like to see a size and pieces (and maybe weight) limit be applied globally that is maybe somewhat less than the "standard" is now. I'd like to see it applied consistently (justified by safety if necessary to avoid "competitive" issues) by all airlines. But I'd like passengers to have the option of taking an additional item, or a heavier item, with them for an extra fee. I'd like the fee though to be an incentive for passengers to not extra take items into the cabin rather than it becoming another profit centre for airlines. And if that can't be done, I'd like to see airlines offer people who need to move valuables a guaranteed, secure and reliable checked baggage service, again optional and fee-based, but with immediate recompense if the process fails to deliver.

Andy

[ExXB]

I'd like to see it applied consistently (justified by safety if necessary to avoid "competitive" issues) by all airlines.

The only way you are going to have that happen is to have a government safety regulator 'order' it. Unlikely, because to date it hasn't been a safety issue. Many think it could be an issue but, to my knowledge, there hasn't been an incident where safety was compromised by the amount or the weight of carry on.

rather than it becoming another profit centre for airlines.

Quick, name a consistently profitable airline. Hint: You won't have to take off your shoes to help count them.

[paulc]

Andy,

even if airlines were to offer a secure baggage system there is still no way I want my camera gear and laptop out of my hands. Have sat in enough departure lounges to see how luggage is handled and have had a suitcase left on the ramp in a downpour so all inside was wet. The damage risk is too high along with the change of it getting stolen

[PAXboy]

It always fascinates me that baggage handlers have never been taught to care for the client. At almost any airport in the world you can bags being thrown. Correction, Thrown!!! and DROPPED, whilst in full view of the customer.

I could understand that this might happen when they are in the sheds and out of sight but I have sat in a rear windown seat - directly above the loading conveyor belt - and seen my own suitcase lifted off the truck and Thrown! onto the belt. The distance was only about 50cm but they could have placed it there.

Why do they do it? :suspect:
Why do airports not train them out of this? :confused:
Why do airlines not INSIST on stopping this - when it ruins their reputation and hits their financial bottom line? :ugh:

Have just seen this link to a Wretched Mail article that regurgitates the standard PR fluff without asking any questions BUT scroll down to look at the sample case being put in the lockers.

Boeing have clearly decided that SLF should be allowed to do what the heck they like. But I wonder if the aisle will be any bigger to allow such bags to be towed down them ... :hmm:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2134114/Boeing-787-Dreamliner-touches-UK-time.html

[ExXB]

Paxboy.

In a previous life I was a manager for an airline. One day in the early '80s our unionised employees decided to honour another company's picket line.

We managers were called out to substitute and I was chosen as a baggage handler (despite being 164cm and 56kg). We had a fleet of B737 (bulk) and DC10 (container) aircraft that we were responsible for loading and unloading for a day and a half.

We were taught not to throw the bags but to place them 'gently' in the containers or on the conveyer belts. Being small I spent most of my time in the hold of 37's. While having been taught to be gentle, that did not equate to getting the aircraft loaded/unloaded according to schedule and it did mean that we couldn't always be gentle.

We were also taught, when loading the carousels (arriving luggage) to place the bags with the handles a certain way, so when they got to the passenger the handle was facing the punter. (Now that appears to be a lost art.)

Us untrained 'managers' got every flight out on time, bar the midnight DC10. That one pushed back 5 minutes late because we didn't get the first container in perfectly square and therefore couldn't get the last container in. We had to unload/reload (In a DC10 the containers form part of the structure of the aircraft) the containers.

I think the answer is the airlines would prefer the loaders to be gentle, but aren't prepared to pay the cost. I'm sure the bean counters have calculated that it's cheaper this way.

[PAXboy]

Very interesting ExXB, thanks for taking the time to detail that and bad luck with the DC-10 containers, which sound like once-learnt, never-forgotten! :p

I suspect that the continuing problem of splitting/fracturing/outsourcing each function also contributes. Other threads over my time in here, have discussed this and how it has affected check-in desk staff and others. Although the staff at home base may be part of the carrier's own, they are not always so and away ports almost certainly not.

I now wave a flag for baggage handling staff as I suspect that they have always been treated as third class citizens who burrow (for the most part) unseen and unloved. But, over the years, they clearly developed a culture of their own and gained a very bad reputation 'Thiefrow' etc. If they THEN were outsourced? One could see that the amount of 'care' would be vanishingly small as they get each a/c turned in ever shorter amounts of time. So, if they got treated poorly 30+ years ago, that may still be affecting the group culture.

As we all know, changing such things takes money. It takes time and good mgmt too - but both of those cost money. Since the system, for the most part, works then we can see why mgmt don't attempt to lift the lid of this particular case of worms. (poor pun intended ;))

[easyflyer83]

I've seen bags being 'handled' on numerous occasions but the actual amount of times where i've thought 'thats bad' have been few and far between. Maybe i'm too realistic but i suspect that many people have unrealistic expectations. They perhaps see their bag being dropped onto the conveyor belt and when i say dropped I don't mean from a great height with any particular force. It's not perfect but i personally don't see it as unacceptable. The cases are there to protect the goods and are usually built to stand this type of low level rigour. With that in mind I do feel that it is one of those rare occasions where better management probably would do jack ****.

I fly as a passenger on a semi regular basis and I can honestly say I have never had a damaged, wet piece of luggage or experienced theft. I have no doubt whatsoever there handlers who do thieve and who treat baggage in a unacceptable manner but much of what joe public sees and gasps over is simple robust handling, for want of a better term.

I'm quite a concientious and professional guy and I've never been a baggage handler but if ever I was I honestly could not see myself picking up bags and bending down and neatly and softly placing it on the conveyor. Instead I would probably do the same as MOST handlers and drop the case from stomach height onto the conveyor which is probably knee height. I personally don't see that as being unacceptable when I see that happening day in day out.

[ExXB]

Easyflyer,
While the loss / damage rate is very low, and getting lower every year tends to suggest that the airlines and their agents are getting better, but they are still not at an acceptable level.

The bean counters don't see that with every mishandled bag is a story then shared with that passenger's friends and family, who all tell their friends and families, etc. etc.

On the other hand all airlines are bad at this, when have you ever heard an airline being compemented for their baggage service.

The biggest problem is not what we see from the business class lounge (who can forget the BA lounge at T4) or the aircraft window. Loading a container with a soft bag at the bottom and loading hard, heavy bags on top means damage, and the way the bags come down the chute dont let you plan. Of course they do what they can. And one does have to throw to fill the top of the container, often a metre and a half, or more, off the ground. you don't see this.

Now I realise that Squeezy doesn't use containers, or Interline or through check so has a lower mishandling rate than a large network airline, so your experiences will differ.

Since my day as a ramp rat I have never travelled with a soft side bag (in the hold) and refuse to let them gate check my legal wheelie bag. I've even travelled with it under the seat. I can also lock my bag, which you can't do with any bag with a zipper, which can be opened in 2 seconds with a ball point pen.

[easyflyer83]

I actually see very few Easy's being loaded, i'm way too busy at that point. I was speaking in general terms.

[Peter47]

I flew a mid afternoon short sector with Delta last year which was full of business passengers. I was allocated a seat at the rear of the aircraft so I thought that I would be in an early boarding group but I was actually in the last group. The reason was that priority was given to those in the higher tiers of their FFP. Everyone seeme to be travelling with a "wheely". The delays in boarding because the overhead bins (in an A319!) were full and people for the rear were pushing past those at the front were considerable. Excess baggage was checked in for free but I suspect that the elite FFP members would have been exempt from the $25 fees anyway. I went away thinking that it was certainly not the way to run an airline.

As a matter of interest does anyone know about airline contracts with third party handling agents? Obviously there will be an elements covering check in, despatch, push back, etc, but how is the charge for handling bags calculated? Is it a fixed charge per bag, and if so what sort of charge per bag are we talking about?

Obviously heavy baggage adds weight, but the I would not have thought the fuel burn penalty would be that high on a short haul flight. I dare say that airlines do rather better than recover costs certainly at $25 / £15 per bag.

[ExXB]

As a matter of interest does anyone know about airline contracts with third party handling agents? Obviously there will be an elements covering check in, despatch, push back, etc, but how is the charge for handling bags calculated? Is it a fixed charge per bag, and if so what sort of charge per bag are we talking about?

Obviously heavy baggage adds weight, but the I would not have thought the fuel burn penalty would be that high on a short haul flight. I dare say that airlines do rather better than recover costs certainly at $25 / £15 per bag.

Good questions, that can only be answered by going deep into the history of this crazy business. Back then there were few airports that had more than one ground handler, and that (for international flights) was usually the national, or dominant carrier at that airport. Through IATA the first ground handling agreements were made, but these focused on establishing the procedures for the smooth handling of an aircraft and it's myriad of things that needed doing. As this became a system of I'll handle your airplane, if you handle mine price for ground handling costs were not that important. Charges were non discrimanatory (these agrements were approved by governments) and were based on the turn of an aircraft type. I.e. not based on the number of passengers or bags - other than the charge for a DC8 - 63, would be higher than for a - 43.

For reasons not relevant for this thread, most large airports now have at least two ground handlers. Large dominant airlines continue to self-handle and act as third parties, however the basic agreements are still based on the IATA model. Of course as these agreements are no longer regulated by governments variations are increasingly common. I can't say if the LCCs have agreements based on the number of bags or people, but for practical reasons I can't see why that would be to their advantage.

When pricing some airlines use the price as a disincentive to discourage bag checking, not to reduce their costs, but to ensure quick turns. Cryanair is perhaps the most vocal on this point, but I'd guess others do the same thing. It's ironic that these airlines, who do not carry cargo (other than own stores) have buckets of room in the hold.

[MathFox]

Just curious - What % success rate on checked baggage would change your mind?

99.5% - 99.9% - 99.99%?

I would accept the current 99% iff carriers would be willing to pay a compensation for damages... Consider the cost of an €50/hour contractor picking his nose for a day while waiting for the airline to deliver his delayed toolbag. That's €400 per day in wages, add €100 for hotel and meals...

I have the feeling that the airline industry will work on improving the luggage system if they were forced to pay a decent (€500/day) compensation for delayed luggage. Now they get away with collecting the change fee for the delayed employee. (Consider what improvements to the luggage system can be made for €5/bag!)

[ExXB]

I would accept the current 99% iff carriers would be willing to pay a compensation for damages... Consider the cost of an €50/hour contractor picking his nose for a day while waiting for the airline to deliver his delayed toolbag. That's €400 per day in wages, add €100 for hotel and meals...

I have the feeling that the airline industry will work on improving the luggage system if they were forced to pay a decent (€500/day) compensation for delayed luggage. Now they get away with collecting the change fee for the delayed employee. (Consider what improvements to the luggage system can be made for €5/bag!)

As mentioned in a previous post in this thread compensation (in the sense that any damages you have suffered are covered) is governed by the Montreal Convention 1999 (aka MC99) up to a maximum of SDR1131 (€1327). But you must prove your loss. Compensation in the sense you get a packet of money whether or not you suffered any loss is not contemplated by the Convention.

[TightSlot]

FYI - Here are the official stats (http://atwonline.com/airports-routes/article/sita-mishandled-baggage-problem-improved-dramatically-airports-worldwide-050?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+AtwDailyNews+%28ATW+Daily+News%29) - do they change any minds in here?

[hval]

Tightslot,

FYI - Here are the official stats - do they change any minds in here?

Thank you for the link. That is interesting. Unfortunately it does not change my mind as my personal experience disagrees with those statistics. Having said that I will be making a journey where I will have to check in baggage. It will be interesting to see if my bag goes missing etc.

[ExXB]

I'm not certain that all carriers are included in those statistics. I think it's just those that participate in SITA's Baggage Tracer. I doubt if point-to-point airlines are included, but given that these carriers don't inter/online luggage their stats would only increase the worldwide average.

I think the lesson to learn from these statistics is that your chance of having your luggage mishandled increases dramatically if you are connecting and further it increases significantly if you have an interline connection.

So next time you are offered at 45 minute connection, try and take an earlier originating or later connecting flight.

Interline sure ain't what it used to be.

[ozslf]

While sitting waiting to depart from Dulles, my fiance and I were watching the luggage being thrown onto the conveyor to the aircarft - most bags about 3m, the heavy ones less. What really horrified us was that they threw the animal crates just as far! :eek:

Same flight: we saw our bags arrive at the aircraft behind the luggage cart, which shortly after raced off. The flight attendant assured us our bags were on the aircraft. Three hours later we established that mine was still in Washington DC :ugh:

[WHBM]

I think the lesson to learn from these statistics is that your chance of having your luggage mishandled increases dramatically if you are connecting and further it increases significantly if you have an interline connection.
This is true of what is generally perceived as "mishandled" baggage, but there seems to be an increasing trend for dispatch to knowingly not load bags onto the aircraft, and just cross them off the loadsheet. Desperation for on-time departures to meet the published statistics, tight slot times, or tight crew duty times, all of which are increasingly scheduled closer to the limit, is one reason to just slam the pax in and go. Likewise booking seats right up to the hilt, it's then a hot day, and choosing for performance/max weight reasons to leave all the bags off (mentioning no names, various prop aircraft operators at London City on summer afternoons).

There are a significant number of pax, particularly the higher revenue ones, whose trip is ruined if they don't have their baggage delivered, and would rather disembark and travel later, or not at all, if their bag cannot come with them. But in practice nobody is told about this happening until they reach their destination, and quite often only discover it there after they have stood by the carousel for half-an-hour as well, when it has been known for hours.

[ExXB]

Obviously we need another EU Regulation to fix this problem. :eek:

[PAXboy]

WHBMparticularly the higher revenue ones, whose trip is ruined if they don't have their baggage deliveredIndeed. So they bring it onboard and in the recession more fo them are travelling in Y and more of them bring MORE on board!