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jabird
16th Apr 2012, 23:54
The headline ends - all in the name of the Olympics, but I don't want this to get mixed in with the Olympics thread, as it is more a case of continued bungling by the city council where the bike was invented.

Not content with ripping up cycle names in the name of shared space (completely mis-understood from the Dutch original), Coventry City Council, in their infinite wisdom have now used olympics money as part of a street re-alignment scheme. Normally this kind of thing should enhance the environment for "active" transport users - i.e. those of us who use our own energy to get around.

Instead, the cycle lane that runs past the very statue commemorating the ingenuity of Mr Starley ends abruptly and cyle racks have been dug up and replaced with this:


(Please forgive any issues with image, it is first I've posted to pprune)

http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/large/562164738.jpg?key=700467&Expires=1334620513&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=DVNDmXpEUT59eyW5P2jgD5UeU2FFwm0ciw2Yn~7C9TQEp0~vZV p5RbhiA3RCeajDrDvem4vhuAK2Vf5R~PUCm9VyWbNgh5Qs7ebaTm2W6SKI1E xFSquvKA-zACvmNmmSMR6xrXsGktT0y3Dq9ci7ARzkmZv4EbjJVEj~KU-Pl6c_

I've got plenty of other photos of crap cycle lanes in Coventry, but this is a new low even by their standards. In this city that "inspires", only 2% of journeys are made by bike - compare that to 27% in the Netherlands - and the council has no targets to improve on this figure.

jabird
17th Apr 2012, 01:00
I thought da Vinci invented the bicycle. I've seen the drawing.

Trying to keep the title brief, so I deleted the reference to the olympics and yes it should really say safety bike, or home of the bike if you prefer.

Either way - we have a strong cycling history and like Groningen we are a major university town and we are also relatively flat.

jabird
17th Apr 2012, 01:03
My council contacts assure me the sign is temporary and that actually that is the sign to show where the new racks are going.

I'm afraid I'm still cynical. Bike racks are easy to install anywhere - so new ones should have been put in long before the original ones were dug up. If the sign is for workmen to install them, why leave it out in what is a public space? They can read off the plans.

This is in a city that has so far done very little to cater for the cyclists, so I have very little time!

sisemen
17th Apr 2012, 02:05
the cycle lane that runs past the very statue commemorating the ingenuity of Mr Starley ends abruptly


http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSG0H_nW0O49BziAJwQxHq8jX56pRW8AHUngbnlt6K 6uuKio9tu5w

Anything that slows up the sale of lycra has got to be good. Well done Coventry!

jabird
17th Apr 2012, 06:22
Anything that slows up the sale of lycra has got to be good. Well done Coventry!

Sisemen - two completely different types of cycling, tran + sport versus just the sport bit. As a lycra lout I want to get out of the city as soon as possible and onto country lanes.

Within town I want to be able to ride safely and I want to be able to lock my bike securely.

So yes, Coventry is very good at sending its cyclists away from Coventry, but that really doesn't benefit anyone.

UniFoxOs
17th Apr 2012, 07:43
Forget the cycle lanes - just ride on the pavement like all the other two-wheeled prats do.

UFO

sisemen
17th Apr 2012, 08:42
Or the road - but those pesky red traffic lights are a nuisance though. Still, when have they ever worried a cyclist.

Last Wednesday I was waiting on a red when a girlie lycra nut whizzed past on the inside and straight through the red. A little later on the same road she'd moved onto the pavement as there was another red light (this time a bit more noticeable to anyone watching) and proceeded to cross a slip road slipping between a group of four elderly tourists who got the shock of their lives.

Cyclists? :ugh::yuk:

B Fraser
17th Apr 2012, 11:45
Why do cyclists feel compelled to dress up as a novelty contraceptive ?

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 11:49
Why do cyclists feel compelled to dress up as a novelty contraceptive ? Widely known as M.A.M.I.L.'s.:E

Ancient Observer
17th Apr 2012, 11:55
To those of us that have the temerity to walk, on pavements, I would suggest that we should be given automatically aiming and firing electric "jolt" guns that take out any idiot cyclist who uses the pavement.

redsnail
17th Apr 2012, 12:02
Why do cyclists feel compelled to dress up as a novelty contraceptive ?
mmmm fit blokes in lycra is not always a contraceptive... :E

DX Wombat
17th Apr 2012, 12:21
It's the same up here. It is now extremely hazardous to walk along the canal towpath because of all the idiots on bicycles who ignore the requirement to give priority to pedestrians and who usually have no means of warning people of their approach. They are a menace to society as are the idiots who race along the A650/629 (the two-way traffic section) to and from Skipton. There is a perfectly good pathway for them - pedestrians are almost non-existent on this section of the road, but will they use it? Will they heck as like. They hold races along the road - I'm not joking. It's a seriously busy road but they think nothing of disrupting the traffic so they can enjoy themselves. :mad: :mad: :mad:

Alloa Akbar
17th Apr 2012, 13:28
Lets all hear it for Coventry :D:D:D

I have hated the city for years as it is the home of my 2nd Ex Wife, and always held the opinion that aside from aviation (Frank Whittle, Air Atlantique - To name but two.. OK the second one was a joke..) The city was a waste of real estate.. but No! wait! Cov really is a great city.. It's the day of the revolution brothers! No longer shall we be intimidated by these helmet-cam wearing morons, no longer shall we suffer grubby finger prints on the bonnets and roofs of our lovely shiny gas-guzzling Audi's BMW's and Range Rovers, our pathways will be safe to walk on, our daily commute will be less stressful and You-Tube will no longer be a haven for the enviro-terrorists to spout their bile!!

3 new facts for cyclists..

1. Red lights mean stop.. yes, you.. Muppet.

2. My car was expensive, the eastern european chaps I pay to wash it for me are not cheap you know, touch my car - feel my wheels.

3. Where on God's green earth did you ever get the idea that you look good in Lycra? Do you have a mirror at home? :ugh:

jabird
17th Apr 2012, 13:38
To those of us that have the temerity to walk, on pavements, I would suggest that we should be given automatically aiming and firing electric "jolt" guns that take out any idiot cyclist who uses the pavement.

AO - sure, and please give me one. These idiots piss me off just as much because they let those of us who do obey the traffic laws down. But I could also point out numerous places where bad traffic planning forces cyclists onto the pavements near accident blackspots, or various intersections where a legitimate path meets the road but no light facility is provided for the cyclist, hence the impression is given that they are jumping lights.

As long as I can have a similar stun gun for all the idiot pedestrians who walk into the street without even looking, let's get shooting.

But this is all peripheral to the main issue. Provide the facilities, bring road awareness and cycle safety training back in schools and have tough penalties for transgressions and we can move on. The Dutch model is the one we need to follow, and I can assure you that over there you will not find red light jumpers or pavement riders.

You keep driving what you want and we'll keep wearing what we want. I will always be a target for the fashion police, bike or no bike.

sisemen
17th Apr 2012, 14:15
IDENTIFICATION CHART

1. Cyclist
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQ6k7cBshI0O90uZ8LhCPjwe7eePIlR18J8uBt3W3q 9ZIVtKHTp

2. Moron

http://t1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRB1ftoS4D80nC0xa4Y0mPUWk5WTHdJbqETDVPcoMA YIBZcqfuB2g

Storminnorm
17th Apr 2012, 14:32
My cock's not big enough for me to ride round in Lycra.
Unless I stuff a pair of socks down there as well, but they
start to chafe after a few miles. Most uncomfortable.

I'll stick to car driving I think.

The Memsahib and I got married in Coventry.
That was many years ago.
We haven't been back since.

MagnusP
17th Apr 2012, 14:34
Norm, stuff the socks down the front next time. :p

Storminnorm
17th Apr 2012, 14:36
Thanks Magnus, No wonder they chafed so much.

Octopussy2
17th Apr 2012, 14:37
I get as enraged by cyclists jumping red lights etc as the next person, BUT I do try to remind myself, when I get annoyed at the cyclists and scootists "getting in my way" when sat in hideous traffic on my way into work that actually, if they weren't on their bikes, they would be in cars like me, making my commute even worse. So I should be grateful to them really.

It works - most of the time.

Geneva drivers are a different matter. My son (4) gets upset when I shout at them (even "stupid" is banned - if only he knew the degree of self-censorship confining myself to that epithet takes!!) So we have agreed on (his suggestion) "Banana-pants", which we both yell with abandon (he can even identify instances of banana-pants driving without my help now, which is fairly impressive) and it's curiously satisfying.

(when alone in car I revert to my normal "W*nker!" etc)

Lon More
17th Apr 2012, 15:23
The Dutch have too many cyclists. The roads round here are full of the idiots at weekends now.
Typically a group of 20-30, with a van following to scoop up those who have a heart attack, they ignore all traffic laws, often creating a series of mobile obstacle courses which it is impossible to overtake. If you do try to pass and have to squeeze into the middle of their group you are subjected to abuse, car roof is thumped etc. etc.
I had the pleasure of driving into a bunch of them who ignored a red light and expected me to do an emergency stop. several fell off, and I had some damage to the car. As they were unable to provide insurance details I called the cops who heard from 20 irate cyclists that I had driven through red at 80kph into their midst. Fortunately a camera, placed just to catch such offences had no indication of that. One on the other side did show them ignoring the red though :cool:

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 15:48
I find it astonishing that you would allow injury and damage to be caused because of a need to be in the right. I would stop even if they were in the wrong & bask in my humanity.:hmm:

ArthurR
17th Apr 2012, 17:18
Sprogget: I find it astonishing that you would allow injury and damage to be caused because of a need to be in the right. I would stop even if they were in the wrong & bask in my humanity

I find it astonishing that you side with law breakers

we have the same here, ignore red lights, speed, if I hit them in my car it is always my fault, on the pedestrian zone though, if I see someone cycling, I make it a point to walk in front of them.....cycling is baned there, though most ignore it.

hellsbrink
17th Apr 2012, 17:22
And, Sproggett, if someone runs up the ass of you because you stood on the brakes at a GREEN light, what do you think the repercussions would be?

The same lycra-clad suicyclists are out and about here too, and it's about time a law was enacted limiting the numbers they can have in a "pack" because they are a hazard when they are in groups of 20 or 30 or more, up to 100 in some cases (I think it was Dendermonde who, last year, enacted a local law banning groups of more than 10. Be in a group of more than 10, you get a fine. Ignore the fine, they take your bike for 24 hours. Do it again, they just take your bike. The gaily coloured suicyclists were not happy about this, but everyone else was......).

DX Wombat
17th Apr 2012, 17:31
Lon, you have described the A629 to a T! This is part of the old A650, the section where they race is twisty, equally narrow with double white lines for most of its length and only about 0.5km away.
http://s0.geograph.org.uk/geophotos/02/51/47/2514738_40f1f8f0.jpg

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 17:31
And, Sproggett, if someone runs up the ass of you because you stood on the brakes at a GREEN light, what do you think the repercussions would be?Is this some kind of homo erotic euphemism? By the way, you hit me irrespective of the lights, Your fault. End of.

Arthur, I am equally perturbed that you see the world in such black & white terms. Law breakers they may well be, but a licence to maim it is not.

radeng
17th Apr 2012, 17:36
Having seen a group of these louts stopping an ambulance with blues and twos going getting past because they were in a race and it was a narrow country road, I'm quite happy to have the bast**ds mown down.

Regrettably, the fuzz couldn't get there in time to see it. Regrettably because the fine is up to £5,000. I would have happily gone to court to testify and I would like to have seen everyone of the lousy pillocks fined the £5k.

I'd like to see even harsher punishment, but I'm a liberal......

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 17:43
I'm quite happy to have the bast**ds mown down.How very charming. I think I'm remembering why it is I don't stop by this hotbed of reason and light much anymore.

radeng
17th Apr 2012, 17:47
So you think that cyclists deliberately putting some sick person's life at risk because they are in race and it would slow them down are DESERVING of being treated like responsible human beings?

There is a certain level of behaviour which is beyond the pale. Our ancestors tended to have people at that stage dealt with in way that prevented them offending again.

hellsbrink
17th Apr 2012, 17:57
Is this some kind of homo erotic euphemism? By the way, you hit me irrespective of the lights, Your fault. End of.

WRONG

You also have a duty of care, and responsibility, when driving. You stand on the brakes at a green light for no reason and YOU get charged with "driving without due care and consideration".

That is UK law, and also applicable elsewhere.

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 18:22
This:
WRONG
Tells me all I need to know about you.

The offence, is driving without due care and attention for a start, not consideration. Secondly there are statutory defences against it, amongst which are showing that your actions were reasonable in the circumstances to showing another party may have been at fault. As usual, you have asked the wrong question.

If I'm waiting at a light & it changes to green, I move off then slam on the brakes because an inconsiderate cyclist has jumped the corresponding red light, exactly who has failed to give due care and attention?

Answer: the cyclist and you for hitting me. No need to thank me for helping you out by pointing out that it's not actually 'for no reason' is it? And so we return in a circular fashion to the legally and morally iron clad point that a dimlo cyclist jumping a red light does not entitle you to run them over.

I remain utterly amazed that it is necessary to point this out.

Tableview
17th Apr 2012, 18:48
30 posts (31 now) and not one in favour of the Lycra louts. I also don't condone anyone deliberately causing them injury with a car, but I have to admit that the thought has often crossed my mind. On equal terms, I have given one of them a thrashing after he spat at me through my open car window because I swore at him for nearly knocking over a woman and two small children on a pedestrian crossing. But I had the satisfaction of doing it with my fists and not my car.

Standard Noise
17th Apr 2012, 19:15
They're everywhere, we have 'em on the Mendips, poncing around in their boil in the bag man made stretchy stuff. And if they come round the corner again in Burrington two abreast, they might well end up all over the Mendips!

As for Coventry, it's great, it has many many roads which lead to nice places that aren't it!

vulcanised
17th Apr 2012, 19:56
Tells me all I need to know about you.


That's all you need to know about me, too. I'm with Lon and all the other folk.

Sammie_nl
17th Apr 2012, 20:14
Oh well. Guess somebody has to be the devils advocate. I am at times to be found dressed in lycra, even riding in moderate sized packs on the occasional Sunday morning. I enjoy going fast and have jumped more then a few red lights here and there. Both back when I was living in Scotland and now living in the Netherlands. Actually spent 16 month cycling around the world on a road bike, mostly dressed in lycra, not giving a flying f#ck about the local road rules, but that's a different story. Red lights were the least of my traffic offenses.

What can I say, lycra is a form following function. Keeps you warm, nothing flaps around, makes sense. Also gives killer tan lines. Riding in packs is social, team work, you can go further and faster. Of course in a pack, there's pack dynamics. If you got a decent bunch all the road rules are followed. If there's no real leader of the pack, or the pack is larger then 30, it's hard to all squeeze through the same light. Packs can be a pain, but most are only on the road on Sunday morning when civilized people (like the previous eloquent contributors to this thread) are to found in church.

As for red lights and other traffic offenses. It's part lazy, part self-preservation. There's not a ton of steel protecting me from the blind, texting, careless and murderous drivers of cars. So I first got to look out for myself , going when possible, stopping when not. Can't ride on the pavement, as pedestrians are hard to predict and easy to hurt. I think in most countries (inc UK) you got to ride on the road anyway. So I try to keep myself safe, make my own rules, not causing much danger.

In the previous two years spend 37k km on the road. During all those days on the bike there's been some dodgy situations, close calls and long unlit tunnels. But if everybody is a little considerate and everybody pays a bit more attention we can all get along and do our own thing. No need for heart attacks caused by high blood pressure due to potted up anger, ride around and get some exercise instead ;)

hellsbrink
17th Apr 2012, 20:33
If I'm waiting at a light & it changes to green, I move off then slam on the brakes because an inconsiderate cyclist has jumped the corresponding red light, exactly who has failed to give due care and attention?

Answer: the cyclist and you for hitting me. No need to thank me for helping you out by pointing out that it's not actually 'for no reason' is it? And so we return in a circular fashion to the legally and morally iron clad point that a dimlo cyclist jumping a red light does not entitle you to run them over.

I remain utterly amazed that it is necessary to point this out.

Let's go back a step to what I actually replied to,


By the way, you hit me irrespective of the lights, Your fault. End of.

You are saying that, no matter what the circumstances are, if I hit you then I am at fault. That is why I said WRONG.


Try again

SpringHeeledJack
17th Apr 2012, 20:34
One used to be a racing cyclist, of a reasonably high level in the not so distant past and have many thousands of miles and kilometres in the saddle. Perhaps I was looking the other way, but in all those years I never witnessed large groups of riders unless it was in a sanctioned race with closed/semi-closed roads or on a closed circuit (airfield peripheral track etc). Club rides and training rides were ridden in groups, 2 abreast and perhaps 4-6 riders. If more were involved, then sub groups were initiated to spread the load and not cause undue annoyance to other road users. That in certain bike-centric lands, the small group has evolved into a peleton with motorised backup, it's not a good development as it has, does and will cause animosity. If they run red lights, then they should be prosecuted and if they cause accidents, they should be liable personally.

The roads are not just for motorists, no matter if cars pay road tax and cyclists don't, no matter if the car/van/truck is solid and the bike small and delicate, cyclists and pedestrians and horse riders are legally allowed and fully within their rights to be on said roads. Until a law is brought in that makes roads exclusively for the use of motorised vehicles it will remain so that respect from all sides must be observed. Let us not forget that over 90% of the cyclists are motorists and car owners themselves. I've had so many near misses that I've lost count, cars coming within inches of me, they on the wrong side of the road desperately overtaking without a thought for anyone else, cars overtaking me and then immediately turning in front....I stopped the road riding some years back mostly because of travelling constantly, but also because of the realisation that it was just getting too dangerous and I'd rather live another day than have "But I had right of way!" written on my tombstone.
There are some idiots riding bikes, as are there many motorists of the same ilk, cocooned and distracted from the outside and often it's a case of 'this town ain't big enough for the both of us'. I am a bit saddened that some of the brethren here have expressed their wish to see the 2 wheelered mown down and so on, having lost 2 club friends in their late teens to such incidents, well, it wasn't nice to have experienced and there but for the grace of God........



SHJ

hellsbrink
17th Apr 2012, 20:44
But if everybody is a little considerate and everybody pays a bit more attention we can all get along and do our own thing.

That, Sammie, is what we all want. But when a group of 20+ suicyclists just decide that they have right of way and come flying straight out of a junction without even slowing, or think they actually own the road and take up over 50% of the width of said road, then they are not showing any consideration whatsoever. Also, when even just two decide to "race" down the cycle path and also take up part of the footpath meaning that pedestrians have a problem (I, for one, was hit by one of these types of people last year, on the footpath. He was hit far harder) then there is no consideration for others being shown whatsoever.

As soon as the cycle race season starts, these people come out. By far, most show absolutely no consideration for the law or for other road/path users and do actually think they have some divine right to behave as they wish irrespective of road conditions, traffic, etc. That is the issue, and if these people actually showed some consideration, they would be respected more and we wouldn't even be discussing this.

Will not even start on the normal, daily, suicyclists who think it acceptable to cycle in the dark with no lights, be on the wrong side of the road, be on the road when there is a designated cycle path, swerve across the road in front of traffic to get to the other side, expect a bus to wait until they are past before letting off passengers, etc. Again, absolutely no consideration towards others shown whatsoever. And it gets worse every year.


PS

SHJ. Just come over to Holland or Belgium on any weekend or public holiday and get out of the city. You'll soon see what myself and Lon see on a regular basis, all over the place (especially on routes that follow real races)

Lon More
17th Apr 2012, 20:48
I find it astonishing that you would allow injury and damage

Not true; the police actually commented that I had stopped very quickly. ABS of course and sphincter sucking down on the road. Just too late as I clipped the first one, the rest all had their heads down and were so close to one another the result was invitable. Unfortunately Dutch law sides with the weak and it was still my insurance that got hammered. I understand though , that as they were all members of a club and there was no permit for the ride requested, the insurers later took the club to court.

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 20:51
You are saying that, no matter what the circumstances are, if I hit you then I am at fault. That is why I said WRONG.

My bold, since that is not what I said.

Tell you what, why don't you try again? Only this time, try it without manipulating the record.

Sammie_nl
17th Apr 2012, 20:59
HB

I never said that cyclist, especially in groups, don't have to be more considerate at times. But the packs I am used to are considerate and I don't quite recognize the grievances you states as daily occurring. Just the stereotypical complaints I hear all the time, but don't quite recognize in all that time I spent on the bike. There is the right to ride two abreast where possible, and overtaking a pack is like overtaking a tractor. You got to space it right.

This might be local. But groups around here are two wide where possible. If not possible we go in file. Communication within the pack is such that everybody is aware of upcoming and overtaking cars. There's always space given, even if not always received.

Most cyclist that ride daily take extra care to be seen. It's true that youths in Holland don't carry lights as often, or disregard road rules wholesale, but thats the youth in them, not the cyclist.

Tableview
17th Apr 2012, 21:09
Sometimes I drive through a nearby science park where cycle lanes have been provided not just in the park itself but also on the roads serving it, some of them separated from the adjacent roadway by a low barrier to offer the cyclists protection. The cycleway is in good condition (I've walked along parts of it as there is no pavement) andquite wide.

I frequently see the Lycra clad morons cycling several abreast on the roadway. If possible, I will take a photo and post it here in the hope that someone can offer a better explanation than mine, which is that they are selfish, arrogant, moronic oafs.

Sprogget
17th Apr 2012, 21:11
Fill your boots.

Someones crashed into the back of me - whose fault is it - Colemans CTTS Solicitors (http://www.colemans-ctts.co.uk/blog/someone-crashed-into-the-back-of-my-car-whose-fault-is-it)

Lon More
17th Apr 2012, 22:18
Sammie I don't know your location ut if you want to see bad-mannered cyclists come to Limburg. Last week was the Amstel Gold Race and the roads round here will be full of brain-dead, heads-down emulators again this weekend. Most of them are focussed on a point about a meter ahead of the front wheel, anything else is irrelevant to them.

DX Wombat
17th Apr 2012, 22:19
SHJ & Sammie, I have no problem at all with considerate cyclists and I do my best to give all cyclists, considerate and otherwise, as wide a berth as possible when overtaking. The A650/629/65 is a main Trans-Pennine route so has lots of HGVs as well as local farm traffic etc and it is frightening to see these thoughtless cyclists, at times three and four abreast, overtaking each other without so much as a backward glance to check for other traffic. The road is narrow and winding with a 60mph speed limit for most of its 60-ish miles to Kendal with long stretches of double white lines and is far from suitable for racing and yet they persist. The old (A650) road is a short distance away, has less traffic and a mainly 30mph limit. It does, however, have a level crossing* but even this can be avoided.
The woman who screamed and shouted at me to get out of her way on the towpath met with short shrift from me - I was putting Bryn's lead on him when she tried to barge past on the hard surface rather than take a minute detour via the grass. There are notices informing cyclists that they must give priority to pedestrians along the towpath but they are obviously all selectively, severely dyslexic - ie when it suits them. Assigning the towpath as a Sustrans route is probably the worst thing that has happened to that part of the towpath.
* See photo in previous post

Keef
18th Apr 2012, 00:19
They're not usually a problem in these rural parts, but last weekend there were two of 'em riding two-abreast on the country road I was on. One was on the left hand side, the other right in the middle of the road.

I followed (at about 20 mph in a 50 limit) for a while. Then I hooted (very briefly) to "invite" the middle-of-the-road merchant to move over. The only response was a hand signal with two fingers.

Sad, really.

reynoldsno1
18th Apr 2012, 01:38
In the middle of the city, I had two manoeuvre deliberately in front of the car at a set of red traffic lights. They took up the the whole lane and set off very slowly in a high gear when the lights turned green. The only reason was to piss off the motorist. I resisted, and am still a free man ....

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 02:59
Sometimes I drive through a nearby science park where cycle lanes have been provided not just in the park itself but also on the roads serving it, some of them separated from the adjacent roadway by a low barrier to offer the cyclists protection. The cycleway is in good condition (I've walked along parts of it as there is no pavement) andquite wide.

I frequently see the Lycra clad morons cycling several abreast on the roadway. If possible, I will take a photo and post it here in the hope that someone can offer a better explanation than mine, which is that they are selfish, arrogant, moronic oafs.

I'll give you a simple explanation - if the cycle way is not continuous, I don't use it. Look at your science park and observe who gets priority where the cycle way meets feeder roads. The Dutch model is that the cycle lane gets the same priority as the road it parallels. If not, you have to keep braking and checking each time at every minor junction - even if for a small business unit, or elsewhere for a house. Also, Dutch junctions have a proper filter and traffic light priority. Many a junction in the UK responds to the car approaching, but the trigger does not work for bikes. In those circmustances, there is no alternative but to jump the light, otherwise you will be there all day.

Secondly, there is no obligation on the part of the cyclist to use said cycle lane, just because it exists, just as there is no obligation on motorway drivers to use "fast" lanes to overtake if they do not wish to.

My Dutch observations were that nobody used the roads there when a cycle lane was provided as there was no need to. I also observed one red light being jumped in two days - so clearly there are ways that behaviour can be improved, even with the yoof of today!

As for riding wide, I really think this thread has turned much uglier than I would have expected here, even though I know it is in JB. Cycling groups (as opposed to large volumes of cyclists in clusters as you will get in busy city centres) make up a tiny portion of overall traffic. I don't ride in a group often myself, but if I were to go out into the Warwickshire lanes every Sunday for a month I would realistically expect to see one or two groups max.

The point of the thread was about cycle facilities and cycle parking. I totally agree that cyclists should respect the rules of the road, and the majority still do. But please let's not pretend that drivers are angelic either, and let's remember the stats - UK wide, around 100 cyclists are killed each year by other road vehicles. These so called "suicyclists" don't even register on the statistics, whereas cyclists killing pedestrians is around 1-2 per year. Note - I do not endorse riding on pavements, except when road design gives no choice but to use them to transfer between pathway and safe road.

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 03:12
http://d3j5vwomefv46c.cloudfront.net/photos/full/444114621.jpg?key=600400&Expires=1334719815&Key-Pair-Id=APKAIYVGSUJFNRFZBBTA&Signature=pEwTL~kiloySAyO6GuFQs86s8rQPJaRR4ZiqaeTAlv1GXsWlJk UjnEAkC6RXB5KVS6PWWsNYnRAqwDRtFXcJVBUP0G1NGDhWpHKuflGpGSR5WB cZrfr2oafTec531DuMKCk9evBLcuTkMM0k~YYTAj7zWQ1Y~3ADOMJTp54JTm I_

This is my all time worst crap cycle lane, just near Coventry Airport. Someone has designed this fence, someone else has signed it off, and then a team has installed it.

Now can you imagine the outcry if a 2m high wall was built down the right hand side of the outside lane of the M1?

hellsbrink
18th Apr 2012, 04:29
Read again, sprogg, you'll finally get what I mean when you say "irrespective of the lights".


And as your "evidence" proving your point from one solicitor goes, that was not a CRIMINAL court but a CIVIL one. Now, be a good chap,do us all a favour and bring up the actual LAW about driving on the roads and defend your position.

Tableview
18th Apr 2012, 07:24
jabird, you said " if the cycle way is not continuous," you won't use it. It's always going to intersect with other modes at some point, and it's not logical to give cycles priority over fast moving vehicles. The track is marked across feeder roads and pedestrian walkways where they exist - I don't know if that legally gives them priority but I always make sure I am able to stop if I see a cyclist approaching as I know they are probably not looking and that being arrogant tossers, they will assume that they have priority (and that if they hit my car they will damage it). I therefore tend to assume that they have priority anyway.

Some segments of the cycle path are a mile or so long on the access roads, and still they won't use them. One might think that for their own protection they would, but apparently not. So in the face of what I observe, your explanation does not stand up.

The local authority spent a lot of money on the cycle facilities, which also entailed narrowing the roads in parts, and thus incoveniencing motorists. This is why I get so angry that they still insist on blocking the roadway and becoming abusive when hooted at for doing so.

Sprogget
18th Apr 2012, 07:36
Read again, sprogg, you'll finally get what I mean when you say "irrespective of the lights".


And as your "evidence" proving your point from one solicitor goes, that was not a CRIMINAL court but a CIVIL one. Now, be a good chap,do us all a favour and bring up the actual LAW about driving on the roads and defend your position.

Why don't you? It's your contention that I'm wrong - show me.

Alloa Akbar
18th Apr 2012, 08:04
The bottom line is simple.. Cars, trucks, buses, motorbikes, scooters.. we all have these minor bug-bears to shoulder called "Tax and Insurance".. I think it only fair that cyclists and horse-riders at least be compelled by law to have insurance, third party as a minimum, same as the rest of us. That way, when you pull up and scratch my shiny car with your pedals, or if you do something stupid which ends in your head denting my bonnet, or your bicycle being tangled under the wheels of my car, then I will be able to claim off your insurance. That way I will feel better about paying my eastern european chappies 15 pounds to have your snot, flesh and blood cleaned off of my beautiful car. Good idea, n'est-ce pas??

B Fraser
18th Apr 2012, 08:11
Not to mention the added inconvenience of a mandatory annual mechanical check and a formal test of competency before being allowed to drive on the roads.

I'm not calling for bikes to be outlawed, how else would those incapable of driving or banned by the courts get about ?

Evanelpus
18th Apr 2012, 09:35
Jabird, can't see any of your photos, all I see is a red X!

Ah, Coventry, the city of my birth and home for 26 years. You seem to have a thing for buses and bikes Jabird, neither of which I like particularly. Coventry Buses, been on them a couple of times and it's like the dole centre and drug rehab centre all rolled into one.

Cyclists I have a special hatred for, they think they own the road, don't obey traffic lights and weave in and out of traffic as if they had a god given right to do so. I say to cyclists, once you pay some kind of road tax, you can have a say about what happens on them. Until then, belt up and obey the Highway Code.

Rant over.

Keef
18th Apr 2012, 09:38
I recall many years ago that bicycles in Germany had a little plate on them with a registration number. I think it was an insurance plate, but it did identify the individual.

I've not seen the plates lately, so I suspect that system has changed. It must have been a bureaucrat's dream to administer.

Lon More
18th Apr 2012, 11:43
The Dutch also had such a system. It disappeared in the 1950s I believe

My Dutch observations were that nobody used the roads there when a cycle lane was provided as there was no need to. I also observed one red light being jumped in two days
Where available the use of the cycle lane is compulsory. You also didn't look very hard at the traffic lights then. :O

UK wide, around 100 cyclists are killed each year by other road vehicles. These so called "suicyclists" don't even register on the statistics,
From unhappy personal experience, "suicyclist" is correct. Cyclists, in their arrogance (or possibly moral superiority?) often seem totally ignorant of their own mortality putting themselves into situations where their death or injury are inevitable.

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 12:44
Where available the use of the cycle lane is compulsory. You also didn't look very hard at the traffic lights then.

a) - Well that's a pretty good explanation then! But you could only pass such a law by having a high quality of cycle lane in the first place. There is also the small issue of debris. If (as is often the case here) the cycle lane is under a tree canopy, the likelihood of getting a puncture increases massively.

b) - It was a casual observation, not a scientific one. I would be interested to see a count in the UK - my guess would be about 10-20% of cyclists jump any given light. Not the majority, but a significant minority who are endangering themselves and others, not to mention the simple question of respect for the law.

From unhappy personal experience, "suicyclist" is correct.

I would consider myself a reasonably fast cyclist but I am not ace. It is rare for me to get overtaken cycling in the UK but I remember cycling up one hill in Switzerland and being overtaken regularly - and no, this wasn't a race.

This portrayal of the lycra-cld freak who rides at 30 mph on the flat and who knows what downhill is not something I can identify with - except when an actual race or event is on, in which case it should be marshalled so it shouldn't be a problem.

The "suicylist" I certainly see on a regular basis is the teenager out on a mountain bike on city streets with dark clothing, no lights and zero respect for traffic lights, direction or pavements. To top this, they will be listening to music - or in one case, fag in one hand, mobile in the other.

I really don't know what to do about this situation apart from education and awareness - or in some cases yes, you just have to get the Darwin Award nomination form ready, but sadly traffic stats rarely get a mention there.

The Dutch also had such a system. It disappeared in the 1950s I believe

It could be possible to have a chip in each bike which triggered if a red light was passed. Maybe with some very accurate gps it could pick up pavement usage, but the costs of such a scheme would no doubt be more than the bikes that were being tagged.

Better ideas?

hellsbrink
18th Apr 2012, 14:16
Why don't you? It's your contention that I'm wrong - show me.

So you accept that, in the eyes of the actual LAW and not in a civil case where a bus driver maybe should have been busted for "driving without due consideration" as, in that one case, evidence pointed to the bus driver being in the wrong and that was why the bus driver was found to be at fault, that your stance is actually at fault and you could be busted for "driving without due care, etc"?

You see, what you forget is that although you may have a "green light", YOU are ultimately responsible for ensuring there is no hazard before you move off. If you move, then suddenly stop for whatever reason, YOU are at risk as YOU did NOT, for example, ensure it was safe to move off by failing to look and see the gang of marauding cyclists obviously unable to stop in time at the lights, even when they are only a few meters away from you, and had to brake suddenly. In the eyes of the LAW, you can be liable for all damages AND face penalty points on your licence due to YOU driving "without due care and ATTENTION".

So, although, in general, the vehicle that hits you is normally responsible for any rear-end shunts, in the eye of the law the driver of the vehicle that is shunted can be the one charged, etc, for causing an accident.

If you don't believe me, then I refer you to case law Scott v Warren from 1974 where the driver who shunted someone in the rear, who had suddenly stood on the brakes, was cleared of responsibility by the courts. Guess who had to pay for that one? It sure wasn't the guy who ran up the ass of the van.......

So do us all a favour. Make sure you understand the law AND your responsibilities as a driver before you get behind the wheel again. Then the roads should be a bit safer.

Sprogget
18th Apr 2012, 14:53
Flawed logic for a change.

You're quoting me case law. You haven't got any from this actual century have you? You know, the modern world and all?:hmm:

I offered you a case that went to the high court in 2010 & you offer me the same from the divisional court in 1974. Ergo, you have proved nothing conclusively. Sorry, you'll have to try harder.

Now, moving to the real world and removing your fag paper distinction between the law & what actually happens day to day - try ramming someone from behind, and see how you get on with your insurance company - go on, I'd love to hear your majestic points of principle as they twist in the breeze.

Lon More
18th Apr 2012, 14:55
The "suicylist" I certainly see on a regular basis is the teenager out on a mountain bike
I saw one half an hour ago, middle aged riding hands-free as he was so busy texting with his head down he didn't actually see a parked car. Pity I wasn't quick enough with the phone otherwise I'd have had something to put on You Tube. He wasn't best pleased to see me almost P'ing myself with laughter. Funniest thing was he didn't tryy to save himself but was trying to protect the phone. Almost as funny as watching a cyclist in Brussel waving and shouting at a tram to get out of his way.:)

A lesson most cyclists have learned, or will learn, the hard way is if you can't see a driver in his mirrors he won't see you. Go under a truck or bus and the chances are you're dead.

B Fraser
18th Apr 2012, 15:25
It could be possible to have a chip in each bike

You could always use the one that your average lycra lout has on their shoulder.

;)

SpringHeeledJack
18th Apr 2012, 17:16
He wasn't best pleased to see me almost P'ing myself with laughter

Whilst such people aren't the brightest buttons, I find it a bit sad that others might get pleasure from seeing them hurt, perhaps badly, by their stupidity....

I cycle these days on a classic grandad bike (1900's style), at a sedate and leisurely pace around the city and you know what ? The number of times that I'm 'threatened' by cars whose drivers are texting is crazy, literally every time, many times. There needs to be a law, with teeth to stop anyone staring at a phone screen whilst in motion, and the controller of that motion, be it pedestrian, cyclist, driver....We're turning into a zombie species bit by bit.

As for cycle paths etc, they are often strewn with debris from both vehicles and pedestrians and in many non Dutch/Danish/German lands more of a hindrance than help.



SHJ

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 17:43
You could always use the one that your average lycra lout has on their shoulder.

B Fraser - I'm sorry, but this is just ridiculous. Lycra is used because it is practical for the purpose of high intensity riding - similar materials are used in football tops, in many cases worn by people who clearly never actually play the game.

Some cyclists are idiots, I don't think anyone is denying that, but to say we've all got issues just because we like to go out and enjoy the countryside in our free time is just hateful.

I don't mind a bit of turbulence in Jet Blast, the terms of engagement are clear, but there is no reason for mindlessly tarring everyone with the same brush.

It is not as if I have come in here and said "let's ban everyone from driving / flying / anything else I disapprove of" as some people in the green lobby want to do.

I just ask that we are given our fair share of the public space that is available and that facilities are designed by someone who actually engages their brain first. That is actually in anyone's interest as a motorist too, as if the cyclists are in separate lanes, they won't be taking up precious road space. It really should be win-win for everyone, save your hate for those that don't respect the rules of the road - cyclists and motorists (the number of drivers who ignore the advance stop spaces is similar to the number of cyclists who jump lights - and why, just because they can't be bothered to apply the brakes properly?).

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 18:30
In the middle of the city, I had two manoeuvre deliberately in front of the car at a set of red traffic lights. They took up the the whole lane and set off very slowly in a high gear when the lights turned green. The only reason was to piss off the motorist. I resisted, and am still a free man ....

Was there an advance stop space there? If I see a car in that, I will make a point of putting my bike perpendicular to the direction of flow and I will point at the space. Next time I'll start taking pictures.

Even if no advance stop, the reason for doing this is to be more visible. How do you know they deliberately set off in low gear, did you get out and look? Sometimes cyclists are slow of the lights because they are tired, some bikes don't even have gears.

Of course, some of us are just up for an argument, at night I feel Coventry is extremely antagonistic, and my usual rule of thumb is to establish eye contact with the driver before proceeding.

Now I could try and tar all motorists with the same brush, but I won't. In all honesty, I think behaviour of drivers towards cyclists has got a lot better in recent years. We're a long way of the Dutch, but there are still more of us than before.

The problem is that most of the time if a "suicyclist" (actually, I am starting to like the term, I just disagree on application) comes into an accident, chances are he (or sometimes she) is going to do most damage to him or her self. Usually damage to self in a single party collision is repairable.

Unfortunately, however much some of you lot like to hate us, it only takes one motorist to knock us off, and that is it - no second chance. Please remember that next time you have a go.

Now I'll let you all keep the flames licking - I really should have just gone into my local bikers' pub and shouted "you're all a bunch of c***s" shouldn't I!

B Fraser
18th Apr 2012, 18:52
I have a deep mistrust of any sport done on dry land at sea level that requires specialist clothing. If you are on your way to or from your place of work then there is no need to dress up like a power ranger. Perhaps the donning of lycra infers special skills where the rules of the road no longer apply.


Here is a fine example of suitable cycling attire which provides the rider with many pockets in which a copy of the Highway Code can be stored for easy reference. Present yourself at your gentleman's outfitters without further delay.

http://www.ecovelo.info/images/brompton-crew.jpg

Fareastdriver
18th Apr 2012, 19:06
For every European that leaves their car at home and gets on a bicycle there is a Chinese who bins their bicycle and gets in a car.

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 19:07
I have a deep mistrust of any sport done on dry land at sea level that requires specialist clothing.

Like running, football and rugby then? That's fine, I don't have much time for them either.

If you are on your way to or from your place of work then there is no need to dress up like a power ranger.

It isn't about where you are going, it is about how far and how fast you want to go. The colourful stuff is for longer or faster trips, simple as.

Or maybe we should all just only go anywhere on functional trips? No more leisure drives, and of course no more flying as 80% of those trips are for leisure / VFR etc.


Perhaps the donning of lycra infers special skills where the rules of the road no longer apply.

I just don't know where this generalisation comes from. You say these cyclists have a chip on their shoulder, but you seem to have a whole tree.

If anything, the lycra lot I know do respect the rules of the road far more than other cyclists. And out in the country, this is less relevant anywhere as there are far fewer light controlled junctions. With regards to riding two abreast, look into said Highway Code and see what it says.

Here is a fine example of suitable cycling attire which provides the rider with many pockets in which a copy of the Highway Code can be stored for easy reference. Present yourself at your gentleman's outfitters without further delay.

Yes, all very dapper, but those are commuter bikes, of no interest to us lycra louts!

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 19:11
For every European that leaves their car at home and gets on a bicycle there is a Chinese who bins their bicycle and gets in a car.

Well that is more China's problem than ours. I went to a talk once by Lord Rogers (of T5 fame), around 2000 ish, and he was told by the Beijing authorities "don't worry about the bikes, we'll get rid of them in time for the Olympics".

It is sad that they have "modernised" in this way, but considering that the "developments" being done here are also in the name of the Olympics, we still have a long way to go ourselves.

There are many reasons for cycling - my main one is the simple fact that I enjoy it. As a means of transport, I do so because the journey is free and so is the parking. Then I do it for health reasons. Add in on top, I am not causing any direct local air pollution. All of these are reasons why we should be encouraging more people to cycle locally. I haven't even mentioned the big C.

B Fraser
18th Apr 2012, 19:49
I just don't know where this generalisation comes from

Perhaps it's hours sitting in traffic watching Chris Hoy wannabes cycling through red lights and meeting them head on as they pedal the wrong way down one way streets. (If people want to spend their time dressed up like an over-stuffed condom whizzing around an indoor horizontal hamster wheel then fair enough, it keeps them off the streets.)

Being clobbered by a cyclist on the pavement at Lancaster Gate wasn't much fun. On balance, I was glad that the dozy bint didn't bounce off me and end up under a bus but her total lack of remorse p*ssed me off. Next time a pavement peddler comes into view, I'll make sure the corner of my briefcase is their first point of contact.

:E

OldCessna
18th Apr 2012, 20:10
Here's a good example of a nutcase cyclist who just happened to be a commercial pilot!

He was actually photographed holding a rock of the drivers head!


PORTSMOUTH, NH -- A U. S. Marine and long-distance cyclist testified Tuesday that he put his bicycle in a road to stop a reckless driver, ended up on the hood of the car and held a 14-pound rock over the driver's head because, "he had to come off the road."

Cyclist Duane Foster, 43, of 2 Foyes Road, Rye, appeared in Portsmouth District Court April 20 for the finale of a trial stemming from a road rage incident that pitted the driver of a red Corvette convertible against a pack of cyclists. Rye police charged two cyclists and the driver with crimes related to the Sept. 9, 2009 incident, when a witness photographed Foster on the car holding the oval beach rock above the driver.

Foster was represented at trial by attorney Stephen Jeffco on a violation-level charge of disorderly conduct and misdemeanor counts of criminal mischief and criminal threatening. Tuesday's hearing in front of Judge Stephen Morrison concluded testimony that began Jan. 19.

Foster took the witness stand in his own defense and said he and a group of about 20 cyclists met in Rye for a coastal ride when he heard a car horn and the sound of a revving V8 engine, just before the Corvette swerved toward the cyclists forcing some off the road and others "to fan around the car." The driver then applied the brakes "hard enough for the anti-skid to cycle," yelled and displayed his middle finger, said Foster.

"He was a danger to people on the road," he testified. "I knew what I had to do. He needed to be educated about safety."

Foster said he peddled his bicycle along a shortcut to Route 1A where he waited until he saw the red Corvette coming and laid his bicycle in the road to force him to stop. He testified that he already had the rock in his hand when the driver was "nudging" the bumper of the car against his shins, forcing him onto the hood.

"I'm on the hood of the car, and it was a beautiful red Corvette," he testified.

Foster said he then reached into the convertible and turned the keys to kill the motor and while he tried to remove the keys, could not.

"Every time I shut the car off, he'd turn it back on again," Foster testified. "Civilians stopped, the cops came and they asked me who held the rock and I said it was me."

The Corvette driver, Richard Macintosh, 67, of 29 Fern Ave., Rye, was given a field sobriety test at the scene and charged with a violation-level count of reckless operation, according to police.

Another cyclist involved in the incident, Kevin Tonkin, 39, of 296 Newmarket St., Durham, was charged with a violation-level count of disorderly conduct. He testified Tuesday that he was with Foster, stepped in front of the oncoming Corvette and raised his hand for it to stop to "make a citizen's arrest."

Portsmouth resident Mark Hepp was also riding his bicycle with the group and testified that he took the keys from Macintosh's ignition.

"For once we finally got one," he said.

Jeffco told the court his client did not intentionally damage the car and therefore was not guilty of criminal mischief. He said Foster should be found not guilty of disorderly conduct and criminal threatening, while citing a "competing harms" theory which says the illegal conduct was "urgently necessary."

Prosecutor Bob Ducharme told the court the dangerousness was over when Foster committed the crimes, while reminding that the cyclists "could have ignored it."

Judge Stephen Morrison found Foster not guilty of criminal mischief, noting he probably scratched the Corvette, but not purposefully. He found Foster guilty of criminal threatening and imposed a suspended 30-day jail sentence and a $500 fine with half suspended pending two years of good behavior. The judge also found Foster guilty of disorderly conduct and imposed a $100 fine.

"I can understand your unhappiness," said the judge. "But it doesn't mean you become a vigilante."

Jeffco informed the court he intends to appeal the convictions at the Superior Court.

After the hearing, Foster turned to a group of observing students from Ducharme's Portsmouth High School American Studies class and offered some advice.

"I was a Marine who flew tankers," said Foster, who also testified that he's now a commercial pilot. "You think being on the hood of a car is cool? It's not cool. I could've lost my career."

Ducharme asked the students if they had any questions.

"Can I have the rock?" one asked.

"No," said Ducharme. "It's evidence."

Lon More
18th Apr 2012, 20:23
I just ask that we are given our fair share of the public space
but just how would you decide what that was?
The amount of road user tax paid?
The amount paid into parking meters and garages?
The number of passengers carried?
The tonnage of goods transported?
and so on ....

gone into my local bikers' pub and shouted "you're all a bunch of c***s" shouldn't I! Especially dressed like a fluorescent condom

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 21:46
Perhaps it's hours sitting in traffic watching Chris Hoy wannabes cycling through red lights


Well maybe that's a London thing, I do see a few more of them down there. In Coventry, I doubt I would see many other lycra louts on a typical functional outing.

So where do you stand on the high vis stuff then - I wear one of those bright yellow jackets with reflective strips on. It is much more bottle of Peckham Spring water than condom. For me, its raison d'etre is pretty obvious - I want other road users to see me rather than hit me and frankly I don't care how I look.

and meeting them head on as they pedal the wrong way down one way streets.

There is a mentality amongst some that goes like this - "the roads are not laid out the way we want them, so we will pretend they are as we think they should be, therefore we will cycle against the flow". Now on the first part, they are quite right - in Amsterdam, and even more so in Paris, you will see plenty of cycle lane contraflows, they make good sense from a space management point of view and are cheap to enable.

Now on the second point, that is just pure lunacy, we have to go throug the usual channels to get our way, just like anyone else.

Being clobbered by a cyclist on the pavement at Lancaster Gate wasn't much fun. On balance, I was glad that the dozy bint didn't bounce off me and end up under a bus but her total lack of remorse p*ssed me off.

Well that would piss anyone off!

At the very least if you have caused an accident by being somewhere you shouldn't be, have the decency to admit it. Sadly, we have all too many people these days with no sense of responsibility beyond their own noses, and as already pointed out, this is not just a problem that is relevant to cyclists.

Next time a pavement peddler comes into view, I'll make sure the corner of my briefcase is their first point of contact.

Well my brother said he observed someone cycling in a market area the other day with an attitude that he had every right to not just be there, but to barge everyone else out of the way. In the end, someone did push him off and clearly there was a lot of silent applause going on. Not sure what would have happened if he had tried to call police and press charges for assault, but I would argue that in this case, when there is a clear breach of the space concerned, a gentle shove, or usage of briefcase, would count as "reasonable force".

Now I wonder what would happen if the plod had a simple on the spot sanction for anyone caught riding on the pavement who did not have the police party contribution money on hand. Simply deflate both tyres and then they will understand what to do with bikes on pavements. If they happen to have a pump on their bike, confiscate it - but they are welcome to come down the station, take a quick computerised cycle proficiency test (whatever happened to that?) and get it back.

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 22:08
Here's a good example of a nutcase cyclist who just happened to be a commercial pilot!

That story merely proves that there are all too many idiot drivers out there as well as stupid cyclists.

but just how would you decide what that was?
The amount of road user tax paid?

Well that is obviously going to depend on the layout of each city. It is easy to demand "Dutch standards", but I think in many Dutch cities (not so much in Amsterdam), there is enough width in the corridor to have room for a separate bike lane and a roadway. That isn't always going to happen in our UK cities, especially not in ones with lots of Coronation St type streets, so I can't give you a figure based on yardage.

All I could say is that it should be possible to cycle along the main arterial corridors (not necessarily on the exact same streets the cars take as side streets are often preferable) across any major town or city without encountering stupidly designed junctions, lanes that end abruptly and so on.

Now as for wastes of space, we've already given over huge amounts of road space to bus lanes, some of which only have a service frequency of four per hour.

If you want figures, I would ask that our local council sets a target of 10% modal share for journeys within the city. You will know that is low by Dutch standards, where the average is 27%. Currently, only 2% of journeys in Coventry are made by bike. I really can't see how you can say there are "too many bikes" anywhere when they would take up far more of your precious road space if they went by car.

As for tax paid, that is a red herring. Cycle lanes need very little maintenance, whereas a bike on a roadway makes virtually no impact at all compared to a heavy goods vehicle. Now lots of drivers quite rightly complain about potholes, which are nothing to do with us. However, they are a bigger risk for cyclists, due to the actions needed to avoid them. So let's get fixing...

The amount paid into parking meters and garages?

In transport terms, the cyclist is much more like the goalie than the striker. It is more about what we don't pay than what we do, even though a contribution to HMRC is still made by paying VAT on bikes and all that lycra.

Consider the other savings:

No petrol used* = better balance of payments.
Better personal fitness, even from moderate cycling = lower NHS costs.
10 bike parking spaces = space needed to park one car
No local air pollution
No CO2 emmissions*.

*I will add a caveat - these two assume the bike rider is burning calories already consumed, as is norm for functional riding within cities. Longer distance cycling will require additional calorie intake which will in turn have its own carbon footprint.

The number of passengers carried?
The tonnage of goods transported?

As you will know from the Netherlands, "barrow bikes" (if that's the term for them) are perfectly capable of transporting young children until they reach an age when they can ride themselves. Ditto for cargo bikes, cycle couriers and so on carrying light goods.

And you know damn well most car journeys take no passengers, not to mention the dreaded school run when two return car journeys are often made when one roundtrip on foot, by bike or by walking bus where available could be made.

Besides, where exactly did I say "let's close all roads and only use bikes"? I have never argued that. Even in Groningen, where nearly 60% of journeys are made by bike, there is a network of bus routes like any other city, and there is a ring road and cars do about their daily business, just with a few restrictions when it comes to crossing the city centre. We have many similar such restrictions here in Coventry, except they take the form of an ugly and outdated pedestrianised centre.

There is no reason why we can't aim to have a workable network of cycle routes which will actually work to benefit the whole city.

SpringHeeledJack
18th Apr 2012, 22:27
Is this the most pointless bike lane in Britain? City centre cycling path is just 8ft long | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2131575/Is-pointless-bike-lane-Britain-City-centre-cycling-path-just-8ft-long.html)

Some unusual city cycling facilities :hmm:



SHJ

finfly1
18th Apr 2012, 23:15
How's this for a 'bike lane'? The Colonies are a far different type of place to ride a bicycle than most of Europe.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v397/bucktaf/P8162600.jpg

jabird
18th Apr 2012, 23:33
SHJ:

'The stretch of green highlights to cyclists travelling along Okehampton Road that they can join the dedicated off road cycle path safely at the drop kerb.


We have an even more pointless lane in Coventry which starts, stops at a bus stop, and then splutters for another 3m. I'll get you a picture next time I'm out that way.

As for the explanation, that is lame, and it also shows that the DfT planning guidelines are seriously misguided. If the lane being joined starts at the drop kerb point, and the lane on the road is joining it, why is the join at 90 degrees.

Think of taxiways leading off runways - they are all at angles, so larger aircraft can make the turn. Bikes are no different, just a scaled down version. To suggest you should stop or slow down to make the turn is simply not safe practice, so I'd rather not have the lane at all.

Solid Rust Twotter
19th Apr 2012, 05:22
Might be worth laying off the steroids too. Lots of aggression among cyclists when they feel affronted. Had a couple of occasions when stopped in traffic that they've come past and kicked my doors or twisted wing mirrors because they feel there isn't enough space for them to sneak through. Spitting in the window or on the windscreen is common and being sworn at even more so. So far they've done little to demonstrate why they should be accorded any respect whatsoever.

TWT
19th Apr 2012, 05:40
Jabird :
I think you need to get out of Coventry if you really want to see what lycra louts on bikes get up to in the big wide world.Very unpleasant examples abound everywhere.

Carry0nLuggage
19th Apr 2012, 11:56
I notice some remarkably familiar behaviour being displayed here.

1, Majority behaves with scant regard for the existance and rights of minority.
2, Minority has enough and starts to push back
3, Majority reacts angrily with shock and disbelief at the temerity of the minority to demand equality. WIld generalisations are presented as facts on both sides.

Now replace "majority" and "minority" with a few examples from history, whites and blacks in the southern US, able bodied and handicapped, catholics and protestants in Northern Ireland.


Getting back to the OP, what on earth made you think that highway planners EVER do anything for the benefit of cyclists or pedestrians? It's all done for the benefit of motorists. Their mantra is 4 wheels good, 2 legs bad.

jabird
19th Apr 2012, 15:23
Had a couple of occasions when stopped in traffic that they've come past and kicked my doors or twisted wing mirrors because they feel there isn't enough space for them to sneak through. Spitting in the window or on the windscreen is common and being sworn at even more so.

SRT - what exactly is your definition of "sneak" and have you read the Highway code on this matter?

Of course I don't condone spitting, that is disgusting and uncalled for. I usually make a "wide" signal with my hands and slowly move forward. I would do anything but "sneak" - I want to be seen, I want to take my rightful place to move forward through the traffic. Well designed junctions don't have this problem, unless drivers stray into our lane. Which never happens of course as you are all such angels! :mad:

TWT - trust me, I send myself away from Coventry regularly, that is what a bike is for. I really do not identify with the lycra lout on a racing bike being the worst offender, I'm sorry. I wonder somehow if there is a resentment here that people can actually indulge in an activity that is extremely enjoyable to the point of giving an adrenalin high, that keeps them fit, that can be used as useful transport and that costs nothing whilst causing virtually zero pollution at the same time. Maybe it is some of you lot that need to get out more.

COL - Yes, fair points, agree completely. Was it Gandhi who made the quote about first the ignore, then they mock (where we are now) and so in?

sisemen
19th Apr 2012, 15:28
From the West Australian Parliament Hansard:

(14) How much has the Government budgeted for the provision of cycling infrastructure in the 2011-12 and in each of the out years?

Answer: The Transport portfolio is budgeted to spend $28.64 million for the provision of cycling infrastructure for the period 2011/12 to 2014/15.

(15) Why has the Government's expenditure on the provision of cycling infrastructure decreased in real terms in recent years?

Answer: Infrastructure provision for bicycle paths etc is limited to the related road construction projects. Transport grants for bicycle infrastructure is maintained at $2.75 million per annum.

(16) How much has the Government spent on its Bike West program to encourage cycling in the following years (a) 2002-03 (b)2003-04 (c) 2004-05 (d)2005 -06 (e)2006-07 (f) 2007-08 (g)2008 -09 (h) 2009-10 (i) 2010-11

Answer: Approximately:$1,505,590
NB: excludes salaries and administration

All that fceking money and the lycra morons don't spend a cent on road taxes - and the majority of them, certainly in Perth, seem to regard the road rules as an option rather than mandatory!

jabird
19th Apr 2012, 15:57
All that fceking money and the lycra morons don't spend a cent on road taxes - and the majority of them, certainly in Perth, seem to regard the road rules as an option rather than mandatory!

Sisemen, sorry am I reading you right? You are complaining about A$30m? Over a period between 3 and 9 years, so let's say $10m? Approx £7m?

In a state the size of Western Oz - 2.3 million of you?

So you are basically bitching about the sum of £3 per person per year being spent on permanent cycling infrastructure?

The tax argument really is a complete red herring, unless you want to start taxing pedestrians for walking on pavements too? And let's keep quiet about subsidies to mass transit.

During the average year, these lycra louts are going to spend several hundred pounds on - well, lycra, sports nutrition, bike accessories and servicing - all vatable in the UK at least at 20%.

Now if we "go Dutch" on this, there are two govt departments that have an interest in getting more people cycling - the DfT as it means they can spend less on road maintenance (sorry, or was it us that caused all those potholes) and the Department for Health as cardio vascular exercise helps maintain fitness and reduce exposure to the risk of long term, expensive to treat chronic conditions like diabetes.

Before you come back at the accident risk, remember who comes of worse 99% of the time when bike and motorist collide?

Also remember that as has already been pointed out, the majority of cyclists are also drivers aswell, so they have paid road taxes. Considering the way road tax is banded by engine size, a 0.3l bike "engine" would only be taxes at about £5 anyway. What would be the point in collecting it exactly?

B Fraser
19th Apr 2012, 16:12
I want to take my rightful place to move forward through the traffic.

Why queue with everyone else when you can hit a few wing mirrors and then jump the red light if there's a gap in the traffic using those special rules that only apply to cyclists ?

RedhillPhil
19th Apr 2012, 16:26
It works both ways. Large roundabout outdside Felixstowe yesterday. I, on my bike waiting to pull out and take the first exit onto the dual carriageway. Large lorry comes around the roundabout clearly indicating right. I watch. Yep, he's definately going onto the dual carriageway. I pull out. Cue screech of tyres. Still indicating right he's turned left across my path. Fortunately I was able to hop up the verge.
Later. I stop at a set of lights, the type that has a bicycle space so that bicycles can get ahead of the white line at which cars should stop. Not good enough for Mr. silver Golf who pulled up beside me and then when the lights changed and I started pedalling away overtook me and turned left knocking me off but not bothering to stop, accelerating hard away. Thankyou the girl I now know as Sally who stopped and helped me up, shaken but not hurt.
Yes, there are morons and menaces on pedalled wheels but for every one of those there's dozens in their powered vehicles and in a spat guess who comes off worse every time?

sisemen
19th Apr 2012, 16:27
You're just being disingenuous Jabird. Once you've looked at the figures instead of just shooting from the hip without thinking you will see that per annum resources devoted purely to cycling amounts to approximately $12.5 million (and, as the footnote to Hansard says, that's excluding salaries and administration).

Given that there are an estimated 350,000 cyclists in Perth ('cos the programs don't get out to the country areas I can assure you) that makes a fair amount of biccy's per cyclist. And, I suspect, a lot of that 350,000 are occasional cyclists like myself (prefer flat hat and cycle clips when I actually renew the skill set) and not hard core.

And, like I say, in return for this largesse they regard the road rules as an option rather than mandatory!

jabird
19th Apr 2012, 16:33
Why queue with everyone else when you can hit a few wing mirrors and then jump the red light if there's a gap in the traffic using those special rules that only apply to cyclists ?

Because I take up less road space. Or should pedestrians on the pavement stop and sit every time they approach a junction where the cars are queueing?

As it happens, I have never actually come into contact with a wing mirror when moving through traffic. Most drivers leave enough space to come through, but it only takes one to block progress. With a properly marked and observed cycle lane, there is no need for any such conflict.

TfL have also come out with an "advanced start" light, which gives cyclists a head start at junctions. Hate it all you like, but this should improve safety. The less opportunities we have for compensation claim lawyers to make a tidy sum, the better.

jabird
19th Apr 2012, 16:57
Sisemen,

No I'm afraid it is you that is twisting what I said, which quite clearly was a rough back-of-fag-packet calculation based on the figures given.

So it is $12.5m not $10m? Now that really changes the crux of the argument - come on!

The figure I gave was per person, not per cyclist, as the whole point of any investment in bike facilities is to encourage new riders as well as assist existing ones.

You quoted Hansard for Western Australia, so I used the state population. As you know, most of that population live in metro Perth, whose population is 1.7m, so again that hardly changes the argument.

You then repeated an argument which has already been covered in other posts above by my self and others, but just to drum it in:

And, like I say, in return for this largesse they regard the road rules as an option rather than mandatory!

You can't deny facilities to the majority of law abiding cyclists on the grounds that the minority misbehave. So far, not one of you has come up with a validated statistic of how many cyclists actually do ignore the traffic rules.

I put it to you that it is around 15% in the UK - still far too high, but NOT the majority. One day I will go and hide by a busy junction and I will do you a count!

Now what we DO know for fact that a very large number of UK drivers DO have points on their licence for traffic offences. I don't have recent figures to hand, but I believe it is around 5m our of 36m drivers - ah, also about 14% - give or take.

And you will also find that around 8% of train fare revenue is lost to evaders, or simply not collected due to lax ticket checks.

Now ask retailers how many more tea leaf chefs there are out there who haven't been caught. They will tell you around 6% of revenue is lost to theft.

By all means if you can confirm or challenge these stats, fine, but the point is that there are law abiders in virtually every sector of society - and that is before we get onto problem drunks and so on.

So either we stop spending money on mass transit, roads and shopping centres as well as cycling, or we treat cyclists the same way as any other mode of transport and give us our fair share of the road space.

Alloa Akbar
20th Apr 2012, 08:27
but there is no reason for mindlessly tarring everyone with the same brush Yes there is, it's good sport, especially where cyclists are concerned.

Jabird - I have to doff my cap to you sir for a number of reasons..

1. You come on here and raise a subject which a bit of study of the forum would tell you is about as popular with most of these guys as engine failure. They do big engines and nasty fuel around these here parts kimosabe :ok:

2. You openly subject yourself to ridicule and merciless p-taking, yet doggedly stick to your principles.

3. You present your sometimes flawed arguments in a reasoned and dignified manner.. despite point 2.

4. You genuinely believe in your point despite point 2.

5. You quite clearly see the good in people despite Mr Fraser's deep rooted, irrational and psychotic hatred of all that you represent.

I think you are ace mate.. a bit of a flower arranging - tree hugging - save the whale - shandy drinking poofter.. but all the same an example to all of us in how to behave and argue your point.. well done that man!!:D:D

B Fraser
20th Apr 2012, 08:35
Mr Pot

I'm quite loveable really as you very well know.

kind regards

Mr Kettle

Evanelpus
20th Apr 2012, 09:16
I put it to you that it is around 15% in the UK - still far too high, but NOT the majority. One day I will go and hide by a busy junction and I will do you a count!

I put it to you! Christ, where do you get off? Living in our fair city has obviously addled your brain. Escape, I did, and there is green grass the other side of the A45.

We all know how figures can be 'manipulated'. IMO, cyclists are a feckin nightmare and should pay to use the road (road tax/insurance, whatever). Once they do this, then I'll listen to what they have to say. Until then, belt up!

Solid Rust Twotter
20th Apr 2012, 13:14
Sneak as in filtering through stopped traffic. Nothing wrong with that except when their progress is impeded by the arrangement of motor vehicles and they feel they have the right to cause damage to property and abuse other road users. Got no problem with those who stop and wait for traffic to start moving again, or find an alternate route through. Those who descend into foam flecked rage, kicking doors, spitting and swearing should really consider laying off the steroids.

MagnusP
20th Apr 2012, 13:26
SRT, 100% with you there. Had an incident where a fender-bender a couple of cars ahead stopped me from clearing a junction. When the lights changed, one of the two-wheeled taliban started kicking the $hit out of my door as I was in his way. As soon as I stepped out of the car to (ahem) discuss the matter with him, the coward fceked off, scattering pedestrians as he fled. Shooting's too good for some people.

Tableview
20th Apr 2012, 13:42
MagnusP
As I said earlier, I have given one of them a thrashing after he spat at me through my open car window because I swore at him for nearly knocking over a woman and two small children on a pedestrian crossing. But I had the satisfaction of doing it with my fists and not my car.
He tried to run away but I was too quick for him - and I'm not exactly big and scary, he was bigger and younger and fitter than I am but anger stops you thinking about that and being spat at made me pretty angry!

Lon More
20th Apr 2012, 13:52
With HIV and everything these days isn't spitting at someone considered to be assault? Possibly you could have performed a citizen's arrest (using such force as deemed neccesary :}) until the police arrived?

BTW jJabird your percentage of journeys to work in NL is too high by several %. I don't have the figures to hand and I am unable to find any breakdown by locality. I suspect in the large cities it may be highrer but here in the South it will be much much loewer.
I suspect these stats to be flawed, probably including schoolchildren in huis-werk verkeer.

B Fraser
20th Apr 2012, 15:33
I note that the standards of behaviour are far better on the river. For example, if there is a queue for a lock then everyone forms an orderly queue. If you are sculling or driving a plastic gin palace, it doesn't matter. Everyone takes their turn unless the rower is called forward to occupy the last bit of space in a lock that can't be used by a larger vessel. There's no arrogance e.g. just because you are rowing, there's no inferred right to jump the queue or get lippy with a boat driver who legitimately occupies the part of the river that you want to use.

Maybe you just meet a better class of person paddling instead of pedalling ;)

jabird
20th Apr 2012, 15:42
I think you are ace mate.. a bit of a flower arranging - tree hugging - save the whale - shandy drinking poofter.. but all the same an example to all of us in how to behave and argue your point.. well done that man!!

AA - thankyou for the complement :D:D

Actually, I really tried to avoid the tree hugging stuff at all costs. I know this is a kerosense head's forum and there is little time for the green lobby, which is why I said very little about those arguments.

Frankly, I couldn't give a monkeys about well, the monkeys, the whales or the bears, they all have plenty of friends elsewhere. In fact, the monkeys where my parents live are pests - not native but brought in by plantation owners, who have a habit of taking one bite out of the fruit and then just dumping it. We aren't the only wasteful ones!

The first reason why I'm a member of bike club is because I love riding my bike.
The second reason is the same as the first.

Frankly, everything else is peripheral, but I would like to be able to do so in safety. The idiots who ride on pavements or through red lights piss me off even more than they piss you all off as they are letting the side down, giving the rest of us a bad name and making it harder to argue our case.

And yes, I'm afraid I'm a stubborn b**tard - so I will defend my right to cycle safely just as much as I have previously defended the right of my fellow Coventry citizens to fly from their local (but sadly now defunct) portakabin terminal.

jabird
20th Apr 2012, 15:59
Maybe you just meet a better class of person paddling instead of pedalling

That's a good one, which I would naturally expect to be ture as boating is a much more relaxed pursuit. I suspect that even if rowers are going through locks, they are only timing themselves when on open water, so no need to rush.

These lycra louts on the other hand will almost certainly timing themselves, and cyclists in town are all trying to get somewhere, sometimes in a hurry.

Escape, I did, and there is green grass the other side of the A45.

I'm afraid I went the other way. Have always lived around Warwickshire, 5 years in Edinburgh, then back this way. Moved to Coventry simply because it was a lot cheaper than the Royal spa. The whole point of cycling is that you do just that - escape out to pleasant country lanes, villages, waterways and so on.

Those who descend into foam flecked rage, kicking doors, spitting and swearing should really consider laying off the steroids.

This really is one where better road design can stop it being an issue. Provide a wide enough lane for the cyclist to get through and he will, and the cars over time will stop straying into it.

In the absence of such a lane, it is natural to try and pass card on one side or the other. No cyclist wants to go round hitting mirrors, and in all honesty of all the complaints made, this really isn't something that happens very often. Once the light goes orange (before green) then any wise cyclist will make sure he is well out of the way of any cars that want to go through.

Many drivers carry a camera in case of an accident, and these days we've all got some such device on our phones. Most people start towing the line once you start taking vids of them.

two-wheeled taliban

Another good one.

Can't deny they exist, but they don't speak for me. I respect your right to drive your car, I hope you will respect mine to ride my bike.

For the record, have had a car, never used it much, simply don't enjoy it. No car now, no need for one, no desire for one.

But I know there are plenty of Clarksons who do - fair enough and I don't believe in the green lecturing as fuel duty more than covers the external costs of driving, just as APD covers the CO2 cost of flying ten times over, if you believe such a cost can be measured and offset (which I do - if I can say that briefly without straying into the GW thread).

jabird
20th Apr 2012, 16:05
LM,

BTW jJabird your percentage of journeys to work in NL is too high by several %. I don't have the figures to hand and I am unable to find any breakdown by locality. I suspect in the large cities it may be highrer but here in the South it will be much much loewer.
I suspect these stats to be flawed, probably including schoolchildren in huis-werk erkeer.

I have only quoted stats I have been given from quotable sources, namely 27% for NL as a whole and 59% for Groningen in particular. Now I would expect it to be higher in cities - I believe Amsterdam is around 40%, in which case there are going to be quite a few places significantly less than 27%.

Best definition I can get to huis-werk erkeer is home school? I would include a journey to and from school as a journey to a place of (school) work, especially as one journey there can be saving two car journeys.

I haven't seen a methodology of how the stats are calculated but I presume they are comparing like with like, and the figures for NL are around 10x the UK - again depending on city. Highest in the UK is Cambridge, which is also around 27%. London is pushing 5 - I'll see if I can get some more detailed stats but I hope you get the gist.

jabird
22nd Apr 2012, 14:56
Yesterday I went out for a ride, stopping at Wilnecote near Stratford. It was rainy so not that many fellow peddlars around but I counted 20 in total.

This is rural riding, not city centre stuff - so no pavements to ride on, no lights to jump, just enjoyable countryside and a brief stint on an excellent high quality dedicated cycle path coming into Kenilworth.

Out of my sample of 20, 2 were what you might describe as "lycra louts" - I would simply say they were wearing the most appropriate gear for a comfortable ride.

There were also a few family groups out there enjoying themselves, do you object to improving cycling facilities so they can ride safely aswell?

It seems there is a lot of anger directed at a very small percentage of a group which only represents about 10% of cyclists in the first place - and that this prejudice is largely based on how they look. Well this brings up post 100 without invoking Godwin's law, but we are close, so I'll move back to urban cycling and in particular parking, which was the original point.

After my bike ride, I got on the train to go home via Brum. One point of note where things are better in blighty - train companies don't charge you to take a bike, a daily fee of €6-10 is normal on the continent.

I popped in briefly to the Bull Ring shopping centre, a £500m development. How many dedicated cycle racks provided? Couldn't find a single one, so cycled into the car park and locked bike on bars next to lift. Scooters, disabled, puschairs all catered for. Wouldn't be difficult to include secure cycle parking, IKEA in Coventry does this.

New St is the busiest station outside London, handling some 29 million passengers per year. It is the hub of the cross country network and the centre of the West Midlands connurbation, which has a population of just over 2 million - around 10x the Dutch city of Groningen.

Groningen has at least 10,000 cycle parking spaces and major Dutch stations also have cycle hire and cycle repair services on site together with secured compounds, which are chargeable. Perhaps the Dutch contributors could comment on the economic of these, but I would guess they are revenue neutral rather than a profit centre. However, they do form part of an integrated system, and it is common for Dutch commuters to have a bike at each end.

So if New St did have cycle parking on the same pro-rata rate as Groningen, it might have as many as 100,000 spaces.

And how many does it actually have?

sisemen
22nd Apr 2012, 15:45
Let's hear it for British Rail (Network Rail??) and Birmingham New Street station in particular :D

Jabird, wouldn't you be happier posting on a dedicated cycling forum rather than amongst us petrol heads and aviation buffs? It's really getting boring.:=

Tableview
22nd Apr 2012, 16:00
and that this prejudice is largely based on how they look.
Not really, it's more about the fact that they draw attention to themselves by their unsociable (I'm being kind) behaviour. One notices the clothing subsequently. It's the 'ugly American' syndrome - most Americans are not fat, ugly, or loud, but those that are draw attention to themselves and spoil it for the others.

I do understand why cyclists need to be highly visible but they don't need to behave badly as well, that is counterproductive.

I was out walking this afternoon with the dogs, in a park where cycling is expressly prohibited. Needless to say there is no enforcement and needless to say the paths are used by Lycra clad yobs riding too fast and without regard for families, children, dogs, and so so on.

jabird
23rd Apr 2012, 16:41
Jabird, wouldn't you be happier posting on a dedicated cycling forum

Siseman - thanks for the constructive suggestion. I posted it here because I believed it would be of interest to some other members. My first interest is still (for the time being) aviation, so this is the only forum I spend any time on.

I've posted suff here about hs2, buses and integrated transport (see bus & train thread), and discussions have been useful and lively.

rather than amongst us petrol heads and aviation buffs?
It's really getting boring.

Well I had always thought of the kerosene head as a superior bread to the petrol head! After all, considerably more skills are needed to get a plane into the sky and keep it there than to drive a car.

I guess I've got that wrong, but any thread runs its coure, then we move on and find the people we were tearing apart on one thread are best buddies on the next, and vice versa.

TV:

I do understand why cyclists need to be highly visible but they don't need to behave badly as well, that is counterproductive.

Well let's just agree to agree on that one!

I was out walking this afternoon with the dogs, in a park where cycling is expressly prohibited. Needless to say there is no enforcement

In my local park there is a new cycle route (shown on maps), but no signage to advise and no proper joins at either ends. This is something that is a prime example of bad planning and execution.

Then there is a stretch where the map says cyclists should dismount, but the specs of the paths don't change. There are no signs to advise here either that cycling shouldn't take place.

So Siseman - what is more important than bitching in forums is contacting the people responsible for this mess, and that I can assure you has been done.

and needless to say the paths are used by Lycra clad yobs riding too fast and without regard for families, children, dogs, and so so on.

I'd really like to see this park! There are definitely some serious lycra fetishists on this thread! Like I say - they are a very small minority and they are usually found on country lanes not in city parks.

My nightmare cyclist is usually a teenager or uni student, wearing the darkest clothes they can find, no lights, riding on pavement and then all over the place at junctions. I wouldn't take issue with you having a go at this kind of cyclist, they are the ones I think are the problem and there are loads more of them!

Alloa Akbar
25th Apr 2012, 08:35
So I am on my way into work this morning, driving through the town of Meir in Staffordshire, traffic line astern, speed 25 mph (30 limit) due to a 4 way yellow box junction. Lycra lout overtakes me having overtaken the bus behind me, forcing oncoming drivers to take evasive action, and the guy is clearly pedalling for all he is worth to achieve the pass. No signals, no consideration, just riding up the middle of a busy road. Yellow box junction - no prblem to our hero, he whizzes straight over at full speed without so much as a sideways twitch from his head.. luckily the woman who had right of way and had begun executing her right turn into his path saw him and hit the anchors. At this point I got the red mist.. I caught up with the lycra loony half a mile up the road and simply squeezed the :mad: off the road and into the kerb, slowly, deliberately and effectively. This may make me as bad as him, but maybe it will make him think twice. Incidentally my move didn't cause him to fall off, just stop his bike and dismount for a few moments.. And I felt much better and was able to return to listening to my favourite radio show, whilst eating breakfast in the dry comfort of my car.. yeah it was p-ing rain this morning too.. deep joy!

Lon More
25th Apr 2012, 10:10
http://images.theage.com.au/2009/10/28/820278/eddaragoncrop-200x0.jpg

Not just a UK problem either as this article (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/society-and-culture/roads-are-for-cars-not-lycra-louts-20091028-hkwr.html) shows

Alloa Akbar pity you forgot the pepper spray.

sisemen
25th Apr 2012, 10:39
Oh, I can assure you that it's not just a UK problem nor is it limited to Sydney.

In sunny Western Australia, where the number of rainy days can be counted almost on the fingers of one hand, these tossers have it down to a fine art. And that's despite spending millions of dollars on cycle paths and other stuff which panders to their wants.

A pox on them all.

Tableview
25th Apr 2012, 10:47
Alloa Akbar N doubt someone will criticise you for your action but I salute you! I also commend your restraint because many people - myself included - might have been far more aggressive.

This is a global problem, I've seen this type of behaviour in many countries. It seems to be particularly bad in English speaking countries, and in France and Germany. In Holland where cycling is a way of life and a form of transport to many people they are more of a nuisance than a threat, and in Switzerland where a lot of people cycle I've never seen grossly inconsiderate or reckless behaviour.

Alloa Akbar
25th Apr 2012, 10:47
The bit that tickles me most is cyclists trying to be aggressive when dressed in Lycra.. sorry but I just can't take it seriously :}

Lon More
25th Apr 2012, 10:56
How they see themselves

http://famewatcher.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Thor-Hushovd-cyclist-in-lycra-spandex.jpg

How the world sees them

http://www.worldofcrussell.com/fat-cyclist.jpg
http://cdn.fatcyclist.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/201102221032.jpg

redsnail
25th Apr 2012, 11:20
This thread is rather sad. Yes, there are "problem" children on both sides of argument.

But really? Cars as weapons? I don't think the police will take "but he did this earlier so it was ok to threaten him" as a legitimate excuse to menace a rider. You may be angry with them but "two wrongs don't make a right". My old motorbike instructor gave me the advice "ride as if all car drivers are out to kill you". Hence I have adopted a defensive/assertive attitude.

As you've figured out, I ride a bicycle, a motorbike and drive a car. Obviously not all at the same time. I pay road tax on both motorbikes.
For sure, I see foolish things done on all 3 modes of transport. When cycling, I see really foolish things done by pedestrians too. (Stepping out without looking being one of them).

The number of times I lost count of the number of time I have been nearly hit over by car/van drivers. The road is not just for cars, trucks, buses and lorries.
One bicycle rider isn't going to delay your journey too long. A peleton/group, different thing but I'm not discussing that.

I use the lights on the motorbike as well as hi viz gear. On the pushy, lights are on too plus I wear the apparently loathed lycra. It's comfortable and practical.

There's a particularly tricky bit of road near when I live. I don't like it but ride it to get to the nicer bits. When I have a clear view ahead I'll wave the cars on so they can get away. Being polite costs nothing. Yes I even use correct hand signals when on the bicycle.

I even avoid school run times as cars just park randomly around the school and always seem to be in a hurry to pull out without taking due care and attention.

I am not breaking the law by riding a bicycle or motorbike, please don't kill me because of misdirected rage or momentary inattention.

Alloa Akbar
25th Apr 2012, 11:26
Red - 2 things there..

1 - I am not breaking the law by riding a bicycle or motorbike, please don't kill me because of misdirected rage or momentary inattention. Correct, and by your earlier statements you clearly ride with courtesy and judgement.. Therefore you are not one of the nutters we are CLEARLY referring to on this thread.

2. On the pushy, lights are on too plus I wear the apparently loathed lycra You are female, therefore the wearing of lycra is excused.. actually, rather encouraged..!! :p

redsnail
25th Apr 2012, 11:28
Yeah, maybe when I was 25 :p :\

B Fraser
25th Apr 2012, 11:43
I was in Bristol yesterday and took note of what I saw.

Cars obeying the rules of the road....... 100%

ok, I cut someone up ever so slightly but it was my goof and I gave a cheery wave to acknowledge their patience at my last minute change of lane.

Cyclists doing the same..................... 8.33%

Yes, there was 1 cyclist in 12 that didn't break a rule while I was watching however that may have been down to the lack of opportunity in the duration that I saw her.

For the 11 miscreants, they came dressed in a variety of outfits that ranged from chav to "take me to your leader" alien. I fear for the long term viability of the tailoring profession as a good pair of tweed cycling trousers offers protection from the elements while cutting a dash with the ladies. Sadly, the garment du jour are "pantalons de lycra" that are often referred to as "budgie smugglers" however the budgies in question were in keeping with these PC times i.e. somewhat under-nourished. Sympathy was the order of the day. The good news is that no lady need ever fear for her honour if she was ever to find herself trapped in a lift with a cyclist.

Of the transgressions that the 11 cyclists committed, ignoring red lights appeared to be a favourite. This was followed avoiding queues by taking to the pavement when the road was busy. Using a pedestrian only area as a short cut was another favourite. Perhaps the thought of the health giving benefits of cycling as espoused by Jabird have yet to reach the environs of Bristol.

Tableview
25th Apr 2012, 11:52
Why France beats England for cycling holidays every time - Mail Online - TravelMail blog (http://travelblog.dailymail.co.uk/2012/04/why-france-beats-england-for-cycling-holidays-every-time.html)

My attention has been drawn to this article in the Daily Wail travel section. The writer must be on drugs although he does make some valid points. A few short extracts follow.


Why France beats England for cycling holidays every time


So, when it comes to cycling holidays, it's France for me every time. No-where else gets a look-in, and not just because some of the happiest days of my life have been spent on a bicycle there.

This positive discrimination borders on prejudice, and is based on 20 years of cycling in France - in the Alsace, Brittany, the Ardeche, the Auvergne, the Alps, and my favourite two-wheel destinations: Provence, Gascony and the Pyrenees.

In truth, France is geared up for cycling. In many towns cyclists even have their own traffic lights, thoughtfully located lower down so you don't have to crane your neck. Motorists even give you a couple of metres space as they overtake as though you were a car. You don't have to be an Olympic medal hopeful cyclist to be made to feel welcome.

In fact, the first morning I ever cycled in France, decades ago now, I couldn't work out why drivers tooted at me - short toots, not the elongated drive-by hootings of home. I didn’t have a puncture and wasn't naked. Then I understood: they were letting me know they were about to overtake. Unused to such generosity of spirit, I wanted to flag them down to say thanks.

But for a cyclist it‘s pretty much nirvana. The French have got it right; they drive like nutters on motorways but slow down to a snail's pace through towns. In contrast, the breakneck speeds at which some drivers drive through UK’s towns horrifies me.

When I have cycled in the Pyrenees cars often wait five minutes behind me until the road straightens and it’s safe to overtake. Events like this are virtually unthinkable in the UK, where waiting for a cyclist is an affront, or slowing down for one a sign of failure.

I'm not an anti-car, cycling anarchist who ignores red lights and flouts other traffic laws. Some of my cycling brethren can be intensely annoying folk, particularly those holier-than-thou cyclists convinced they have a higher calling.

B Fraser
25th Apr 2012, 11:59
The writer must be on drugs

A bit like those that compete in the Tour De Fance then.

I have done a bit of paragliding around Alp D'Huez and Haute des Alpes. The road to the top of the mountain was bloody steep and climbed some 4000 feet (IIRC) from the valley. I was told that the cyclists on the Tour race up. Their brakes must have been on fire during the trip down. Stuff like that just isn't natural ......... unlike running off the summit under an inflatable nylon wing.

;)

Alloa Akbar
25th Apr 2012, 12:07
Beef / Red.. FYI

Correct cycling attire for the ladies.. as demonstrated by Vicky P and the most spiffing attire for a gentleman of the cycle paths..

http://ukcyclesport.com/images/stories/tweedrun2010.jpg

http://www.spokeshirts.co.uk/v4/wp-content/gallery/victoria-pendleton/victoriapendleton3.jpg

vulcanised
25th Apr 2012, 12:08
The only bike riders I know just do it once a year for a week, and go to Jersey to do it.

27mm
25th Apr 2012, 13:11
Please may I have that lady's saddle....:E

Carry0nLuggage
25th Apr 2012, 15:13
Cycling in France is indeed a pleasure. Drivers there actually see you rather than look in your direction; the car that does try to lose a door mirror on your handlebars in France will have GB plates without fail.

The only time you feel uncomfortable is when your group descends on the boulangerie and cleans them out of stock just before lunch!

jabird
25th Apr 2012, 15:46
Sorry guys but it's pissing it down and the cyclist's forum I went into was about as dead as a roadkill dodo, so I've got to come back here and bore you.

I was in Bristol yesterday and took note of what I saw.

Cars obeying the rules of the road....... 100%

ok, I cut someone up ever so slightly but it was my goof and I gave a cheery wave to acknowledge their patience at my last minute change of lane.

Cyclists doing the same..................... 8.33%

Well I've been making a few observations myself, and I have to admit we do have a much bigger problem with obeying the rules than I'd thought.

However, I really still don't get the lycra fetish! My observations from a busy road near my house in late afternoon, not rush hour.

Cyclists observed - 15
"Lycra louts" observed - 1
Cyclists riding on pavement - 14
Guess who wasn't riding on the pavement?

I asked one of the pavement riders why he did it. Response "I'm safer / too much traffic."

Reality - riding on the pavement is actually much more dangerous as cars are much less likely to see you at turnings. Also, pavements are full of obstacles, including the moving ones who the space belongs to.

How do you get that message across? Anyone ever run a fear of flying course? After all, flying is statistically 100+ times safer (per mile) than driving.

Yesterday I rode across town to a pub for lunch and then continued to a new office park right on the edge of the city. Still a few pavement riders but nothing like as bad as the spot where I counted. Not seen any light jumpers (car or bike) since starting this thread, but I know they are around!

As I was leaving the pub, a cyclists came up on the pavement towards me, and my bike happened to be perpendicular so I asked her what she was doing on the pavement. After a bit of aggro, I got a similar reply - "roads to dangerous" / "I ride on the roads when there's less traffic" / "if they built facilities like London" and so on.

In many cases, the designated on pavement cycle paths end at a certain point (basically anywhere that gets difficult for the highwat engineers), and most cyclists then continue on the pavement without giving it a second thought.

If we are going to make a serious distinction between pavements that are wide / quiet enough for two wheeled traffic and those that are not suitable, then there need to be no cycling signs at any crossover point.


Cars obeying the rules of the road....... 100% (2)

Try driving down the M1 at 70. Or even 80. Now count the number of cars who over take you, and compare it to the number you over take. I think you will find a similarly high proportion of law breakers. Personally, I'm much more worried about speeding in towns, but the motorway count is a very easy demonstration that car drivers aren't angels either - even though they have had to go through a formal training to be allowed to drive, when cyclists have not (but they should).

Cars obeying the rules of the road....... 100% (3)

That was from your perspective as a driver. As a cyclist trying to ride (perfectly legitimately) down the left hand side of the road towards a red light, I can guarantee you there will be several drivers (say in a queue of 10-20) who don't leave the amount of room the Highway code advises - and it only takes one to block progress.

This might seem like more of an annoyance than an offence, but the "local transport plan" policy is that barriers to cycling should be removed as much as possible, and the Dutch thinking is that if you provide the right facilities and make them usable (ie a 1-1.5m lane) then the average speed of cyclists in built up areas becomes comparable to driving, so people have a genuine choice over which mode to use.

Also, on country lanes, although not an offence, it is not uncommon for drivers to overtake too fast, or not to leave enough room.

However, I will still maintain that the vast majority of drivers behave with respect and courtesy. Just remember though - it only takes one idiot driver and you are dead. It only takes one idiot cyclist and your bonnet has a dent in it. Keep the perspective!

jabird
25th Apr 2012, 16:08
From the Sydney article:

How aggressive do you have to be at 5am, anyway? You never hear of rowers, joggers, swimmers, yoga artists or other dawn fitness devotees attacking people.

That is because there is no conflict between those activities and motorists. Plenty of lycra clad joggers, but they only need to be on the roadway at junctions.

This cat-and-mouse game has been going on for almost three years, since the T-way was built.

These are basically the bus equivalent of the TGV, and we don't really have much of an equivalent - apart from the odd experiment in Edinburgh and Cambridge. Ottawa is full of them.

I really don't think they are a good mix with bikes - but as the article says further down, and an alternative cycling route was supposed to have been provided and it was full of gaps. As useful as as trying to put a 747 down on Saba.

The former roads minister Carl Scully, a vegetarian cyclist, threw $250 million at the lobby

Oh no, a veggie and a cyclist, must be ALL bad!

So that's about £150m? Did it really go on cycle infrastructure, or was it part of a "sustainable travel" package, labelled by some as being for cycling, when a lot of it is actually going on park and ride (train) stations?

Birmingham has allocated an "all time high" cycling budget of £2.7m - or £2.70 per head, I have yet to see any evidence that Coventry has either targets or budgets.

Bikes and pedestrians are allowed on to roads only under the good graces of motorists, and only when they do not pose a traffic hazard

Well we were here first (ish)!

Lon More
25th Apr 2012, 16:32
don't leave the amount of room the Highway code advises
advice, not law. It can't take into account the road width. If there's no room you can't leave a gap. Also , if in the UK, turning left I wouldn't leave a gap. Not so much a problem with a car, but an enormous, potentially lethal - for the cyclist, problem. If you can't see the truck driver in his mirrors he can't see you.
£2.70 per head Way too high considering the number of people using them.

vulcanised
25th Apr 2012, 16:53
Very surprised that no-one (?) has mentioned the lunatics that 'walk' their dog riding a bike.

Or is it just round here?

B Fraser
25th Apr 2012, 17:36
it only takes one to block progress

It only takes a bit of consideration to queue with those who paid for the road that you are using for free. In the circumstances, is that unreasonable ?

As for veggie cyclists, they fart at car window level :{

Please may I have that lady's saddle....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

27mm, you are probably an excellent chap so please forgive me. Your request has been turned down as the seat already seen one [email protected] already. Sorry but it was too good a line to throw away.

jabird
26th Apr 2012, 14:19
Correct cycling attire for the ladies.. as demonstrated by Vicky P and the most spiffing attire for a gentleman of the cycle paths..

If some modern day lady Godiva wanted to ride like that through Coventry city centre, I'm sure she'd get all her demands met, and that cycling prticipation in the city would double overnight.

Instead we get this monstrosity:

Pricey Olympic project nears completion | Coventry Observer (http://www.coventryobserver.co.uk/2012/04/26/news-Pricey-Olympic-project-nears-completion-37933.html)

Oh the irony of having a Lady Godiva statue ride on this piece of junk! When this kind of thing is being done in the name of cycling, I really don't think there's much hope! £2m would buy about 10 miles of good quality cycle lane, which people would then use, instead of the pavements or your precious roads.

Worse still, this is supposed to be a "history lesson". Clearly not in Greek mythology!

Very surprised that no-one (?) has mentioned the lunatics that 'walk' their dog riding a bike.

Or is it just round here?

No, we have them. The worst of all are what you might call the "super-suicyclists" - trying to ride back from the supermarkets with 3 bags full on each handlebar. Talk about zero stability!

It only takes a bit of consideration to queue with those who paid for the road that you are using for free. In the circumstances, is that unreasonable ?

Very unreasonable. You really have to separate the economics from rules of the road.

As I've already said further up, it is a total fallacy to argue that cyclists have not "paid for the road". Just to repeat though to ram it home:

Myth: cyclists should pay road tax

Fact: firstly, such a statement assumes that a mechanism exists to collect a vehicle tax in the same way that exists with cars. To do so would involve the introduction of a highly complex bicycle tagging scheme, and an even more complex system to detect cycles which did not have the correct tags. This would of course be extremely costly, and it would serve very little purpose as bikes would be categorised in an even cleaner category than the smallest and most fuel-efficient compact cars and therefore they would pay no tax anyway.

Secondly, as most adult cyclists are drivers anyway, they often do pay tax like any other road user.

Thirdly, regular cycling has enormous health benefits which can significantly reduce costs on the overburdened NHS.

And finally, cyclists pay VAT on the purchase of new bikes, cycling equipment, and sports nutrition. Any domestic cycling holidays are also a significant boost to local economies, generating further VAT receipts on restaurant food and any hotel stays. A cyclist would only need to spend £300 each year to generate £60 in VAT receipts, which works out at around £1 per week. Although this is a small sum, it more than covers the pitiful amount most councils spend per head each year on cycling facilities.

TWT
26th Apr 2012, 14:51
Very surprised that no-one (?) has mentioned the lunatics that 'walk' their dog riding a bike.Not as bad as these lazy b*stards
http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR8uF8gXGhvfXY-OTC7CYJY6PWg0weAFrv6xGrov_OPQHnocUUc

G-CPTN
26th Apr 2012, 15:09
Very surprised that no-one has mentioned the lunatics that 'walk' their dog riding a bike.
This was a popular activity in Denmark where it was regular to see large dogs (Schæferhund/German Shepherd/Alsation) being lead at the trot by cyclists.

It wasn't obvious whether the dog was doing the pulling, though . . .

Alloa Akbar
26th Apr 2012, 15:16
Jabird - I thought that article was an april fool.. can't believe they have built such an expensive monstrosity when all they needed was this..

http://sports.popcrunch.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/victoria-pendleton.jpg

B Fraser
26th Apr 2012, 16:53
as most adult cyclists are drivers anyway, they often do pay tax like any other road user

errrrrrr, ummmmmmm so there's no need for me to tax more than one car as I'm already paying the tax on my first car and can only drive one at a time then ? What a great concept, I'll tax the Prius and drive the gas guzzler for free.

Meanwhile back in the real world ...... taxing a bike is very simple and to reduce the admin costs to a minimum, tax it every 10 years. Link the tax plate to a third party insurance database and Bob's your mother's brother. To ensure compliance, we have lots of traffic wombles wandering around trying to hit their parking fines quota. It's not difficult to train them to identify a bike, 2 hours of study should be enough.

Each bike tax plate can contain an RF chip that is linked to sensors in the road at traffic lights :E

cycling has enormous health benefits which can significantly reduce costs on the overburdened NHS

I have just returned from hospital this afternoon having taken an injured cyclist there to get a wound treated. (I am not making this up, I promise). Fraser jnr fell off his bike and hit the gate at the end of the drive so it was lollipops all round for being a brave little chap. :ouch:

jabird
26th Apr 2012, 22:14
Meanwhile back in the real world ...... taxing a bike is very simple and to reduce the admin costs to a minimum, tax it every 10 years.

So simple, that the Swiss, generally a very intelligent lot, especially on transport matters, have just scrapped their bike registration

Link the tax plate to a third party insurance database and Bob's your mother's brother.

As it happens, I have just joined the London Cycling Campaign, who provide me with third party insurance, although I think my home insurance also provides some level of liability cover.

Now I'm no fan of insurance companies (don't ask me how they responded when I made a claim after Easyjet destroyed by bike box) - but one thing they do know about is how to make an impartial calculation of risk.

LCC membership is £32 per year. Let's say half of that goes on the liability cover - although I doubt it is that much, otherwise they wouldn't do it.

Car insurance for a young driver can run to thousands of pounds per year, and this is based as much on the risk to others as it is on the risk to self and car. Let's say £800 covers the third party component.

Of course, this is a very crude calculation, but clearly the liability risk for the driver is significantly larger.

Having said that, I wouldn't mind seeing a law requiring all cyclists to have liability cover, if it was enforceable (which it clearly isn't). This would obviously provide some sort of obligation to behave properly, as would a compulsory test of the Highway Code at 16, which would be a benefit to all kinds of road use (amazing how well the idiot pedestrians have survived this thread, there are plenty of those about!).

However, the fact that liability cover is provided so easily without asking about previous incidents suggests that the volume of cases is extremely low.

I remind you:

> Idiot cyclist has too much to drink and tries to ride home.

Result: One bruised idiot former cyclist and one mangled pile of metal.

> Idiot driver has too much drink and tried to drive home.

Result: Can very easily cause fatal accident.


> Idiot driver puts foot down and drives at 10mph aove speed limit in built up area.

Result: As I trust you all know - hit a pedestrian at 20mph, 1 in 20 chance of fatality, 40mph, 1 in 20 chance of survival. Of course, no drivers ever exceed the speed limit. Ever!

I trust you see where I'm coming from with this.

Bottom line is, even if all cyclists were morons and none of us respected a single road law, we would still be less of a risk to society than if all motorists behaved exactly as the Highway Code told them.

jabird
26th Apr 2012, 22:51
I have just returned from hospital this afternoon having taken an injured cyclist there to get a wound treated. (I am not making this up, I promise). Fraser jnr fell off his bike and hit the gate at the end of the drive so it was lollipops all round for being a brave little chap

Glad he's learning. No competent cyclist would ever pretend that cycling is risk free, whether that risk comes from their own activities or those of motorists.

With regards to health benefits, it is a question of balancing risks.

Studies from China, Denmark, the Netherlands and the United Kingdom show that regular cyclists live longer because the health effects far outweigh the risk of crashes.

Can't find source, but there are claims of a 10 year life expetancy gain / 10 to 1 benefit to risk ratio. Now that could probably be applied to many forms of exercise, but the difference with cycling (as opposed to say, playing football) is that it is also a means of transport. This also makes it much easier to maintain continuity of activity - not so easy in the school rugger team once the rugby term is over, or indeed after A-Levels / graduation from uni.

Of course, there are some riders out there who are just Darwin awards on two wheels, but ask many surgeons and I think they will say it is the motorised ones who are the best sources of donor organs.

sisemen
27th Apr 2012, 00:12
I wouldn't mind seeing a law requiring all cyclists to have liability cover, if it was enforceable (which it clearly isn't).

Two young cyclists without liability cover and registration :E

http://www.edp24.co.uk/polopoly_fs/as_07_badger_rd_siege_1_1113651!image/2156398059.jpg_gen/derivatives/landscape_490/2156398059.jpg

Cacophonix
27th Apr 2012, 00:25
As a veteran cyclist I must say (with a smile) that if God had meant us to cycle she would not have invented the Ferrari (not Lola RIP).

Bicycle Race. Queen. - YouTube

Caco

Loose rivets
27th Apr 2012, 05:13
One liked that clip. The female form is so wonderful when in the throws of a vigorous activity.


I've said many time that I use the footpaths. Miles of road to the pub, and barmy buggahs at twice the speed limit. I'm staying on the deserted footpath until I'm safe on the road. (ie, for ever.)

Nearly hit a car once. A POLICE car. She came out of a looooong gravel drive and skidded right across the path. I stopped just short of her door.

She looked at me with a crinkley smile. I looked at her, smiled, and wondered if she was equipt with handcuffs. Her response was a knowing smile, but we went on our merry, albeit, separate ways.

Last summer I managed to get an entire week's shopping, including my 6 bottles of wine, on me bike. I did walk up the hill to the clifftop.

Here, I wouldn't dare use my bike in town. Bull-Sh1t bars that could kill and elephant, and drivers that think green, or amber, or even red, is okay to maintain cruising speed.

Hee hee . . . after a fantastic evening with a fellow PpruNer in Frinton, I set off along the clifftops for Walton. I'd forgotten me lights.

It was damp, and me brakes were howling in resonance. The sound bounced off the clifftop homes, and gave me sonic reference.
"Ah, Hah!" thinks I " I can make it home in the blackness like a bat. The sound of the waves way below will be the other reference. "

And this I did, though it was a tad unnerving when a park bench went by in the shadows. Might well have spent the night laid out on that.

If bloody people are going to put things where I've cycled for half a century or more, they can watch out. Even if that thing is a road. Bollaux to cars, I say.

Alloa Akbar
27th Apr 2012, 07:46
Meanwhile.. back to VP :}

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/lifestyle/esmagazine/article6392578.ece/ALTERNATES/w460/Victoria+Pendleton

FullOppositeRudder
27th Apr 2012, 09:10
At this point I got the red mist.. I caught up with the lycra loony half a mile up the road and simply squeezed the http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif off the road and into the kerb, slowly, deliberately and effectively. This may make me as bad as him, but ...Please don't ever try that with me. For reasons which the above quote demonstrates with a clarity I would be hard pressed to match, I have a miniature sports movie camera mounted on and facing rearwards on my road bike. It's running every minute I am out there, just in case. It has a high enough definition to not only read back a number plate but also to provide a mug shot of the driver.

An increasing number of cyclists are doing this these days for that reason. It's possible that the person you ran off the road had one, but I imagine you might have had a knock on the door by now, perhaps by the leather clad members of his motorcycle club if not the police, if he had.:ooh:

We can live together, it just requires the application of the same degree of discipline we apply when we are flying.

You can draw your own conclusion about whether your actions above enhanced the spirit of co-operation (and yes, tolerance) which essential for the safety of all road users.

Fly safely, drive safely, ride safely. :ok:

GANNET FAN
27th Apr 2012, 09:19
Forgot to turn on yer lights Rivets?
Wasn't it the Norfolk Postman (Ha' ya got a light boy) who when confronted by a policeman that he wasn't showing a light, said, " I was going so fast I had sparks coming out me arse".
"Well put yer arse on the handlebars then".

Alloa Akbar
27th Apr 2012, 09:41
Full Opposite Rudder - Please tell me.. If you had ridden as dangerously and the dummy I chose to slow down, would you have gone to the police with said video of yourself and confessed your sins?? Naaa.. prob'ly not eh??

You see the trouble with people like you is that you think you are law enforcers, whereas I leave that kind of thing to people like.. Hmm.. the Police?? The very fact that you feel the need to invest in cameras alone speaks volumes. I bet you would never consider using it to highlight another cyclists dangerous moves? Nope.. prob'ly not.:mad:

I followed a cyclist last night into Leek in staffs, Lycra clad (But lets not dwell on fetishists) decent lights, very visible. we came to a red light, I was 4th car back. Cyclist stopped and held station between my car and the one in front, duly waited until the lights turned green, held station, signalled his intent to carry on ahead with a clear glance over his shoulder at my position and safely crossed the intersection keeping to the left, not causing nor inviting any nuisance or danger, and went on his way. No bike vs Car confrontations, consideration all round, everyone a happy camper.

Of course it's easy to be a prick with a camera when you are safe in the knowledge that you have no means of identification or traceability attached to you.. but you are probably a nice chap, just wearing the cameras for defence in case some car driver threatens your life for no apparent reason right?? As they say say in ebonics "Puh-leeeze!":rolleyes:

I put it to you that by virtue of the considerable amount of technology you have on board that you yourself ride with a pre-conceived agenda?:=

PS - Motorcycle club? Read the post mate.. it was a cyclist I was talking about, and as for my crime, I slowed him to a standstill.. nothing more.

B Fraser
27th Apr 2012, 11:15
Can't find source, but there are claims of a 10 year life expetancy gain / 10 to 1 benefit to risk ratio.

That will be why annuity rates are in free-fall. Smokers can apply for a better return on their pension pot based on their lifestyle so why don't cyclists do the same so the non smoking non cycling group can have their fair entitlement ?

Mr Akbar, this is a cycling thread and I don't see a bicycle in the photo that you posted. I have looked several times to be absolutely sure but without success. I'm not sure of the relevance so please post some additional examples so I can work out how these photos are appropriate to the thread. What prompted the lady to adopt that position ?

Alloa Akbar
27th Apr 2012, 11:27
Mr F - Aplogies Sir, I do try and stick to thread relevance, but in some cases a little thread drift is inevitable. I am happy to recognise my failings though and would like to offer up this by way of a return to the thread topic.. I think you will agree a rather fine frame with well shaped spokes, not to mention robust tube work..

http://olympicgirls.net/sport-girls/victoriapendleton7.jpg

MagnusP
27th Apr 2012, 11:30
As the wonderful Jake Thackery put it, "Thighs that would easily fracture the wing of a swan".

B Fraser
27th Apr 2012, 12:24
Once upon a long ago, I was at RAF Benson. A colleague spied a WAAF heading our way. "Here comes the station bike" he said. I couldn't see a bicycle on that occasion either although to be fair, she was no oil painting.

Do I have a case of transport dependent myopia ?

Alloa Akbar
27th Apr 2012, 13:25
BF - I rode the station bike at RAF Benson in 1998 and can verify it's existence. Robustly built old thing as I recall, welding couldn't have been much good as I remember it had problems with its joints, despite the regular servicing it got.. It was always well lubricated and the substantial and comfy seat always ensured a comfortable ride.:ok:

Tableview
27th Apr 2012, 13:28
I recall on a buy/sell forum someone advertising :

Woman bicycle for sale

I believe there were far more replies than expected!

jabird
28th Apr 2012, 22:41
We can live together, it just requires the application of the same degree of discipline we apply when we are flying.

I couldn't agree more, but the closest most people will get to a cockpit is MS flight sim. Respect for the Highway Code would be a good place to start. Now as nearly all drivers have at some stage been drivers, what if the other way round was true too?

Just wondering - any countries with a mandatory driving test - or at least mandatory theory lessons?

On the subject of helmet cams, there was a big bike demo in London today and for my sins I went along. I spoke to a guy there who had what I thought was a ridiculous outfit strapped to him and his bike - 4 powerful headlamps, an air horn and 3 cameras. Turns out that he had already been hit twice and that the second time round having all the gear meant he could prove the driver was liable (and presumably aswell who the driver was and that he was driving the car at the time).

He was also a pilot :ok:

FullOppositeRudder
29th Apr 2012, 02:01
Thank you jabird - an interesting and worth while contribution.

My motivation for the camera comes from what can be read here (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kapunda_Road_Royal_Commission).

It made an enormous impression not only on the cycling community but also the general public in this part of the world.

I won't comment of an earlier contribution in this thread reflecting on my motives. It goes beyond the scope of this forum and frankly, would IMHO be a waste of time.

As before: fly safely, drive safely, ride safely.

Solid Rust Twotter
29th Apr 2012, 06:25
If someone wearing one of those cameras were to take a swing at a car door or wing mirror, I doubt very much the evidence would still be in existence by sundown.

jabird
29th Apr 2012, 19:55
If someone wearing one of those cameras were to take a swing at a car door or wing mirror, I doubt very much the evidence would still be in existence by sundown.

I very much doubt they would.

If my guy yesterday was representative of the helmet cammers, this is how he behaved:

As we were part of a demonstration, we were subject to the guidance of the marshalls and the police, not the traffic lights. However, there was an element of confusion as at some lights there were marshals helping pedestrains to cross, and at others there were not. Note - any other demo (ie on foot) would also act as one, and the only way to cross would be to join and filter through.

As I was talking to Mr Helmetcam, we came to a red light where there were neither marshals nor pedestrians trying to cross. He was adamant that red meant red and that he would wait.

Now if there was an incident as you describe and the boys in blue were called, I would expect that they might well be able to take such evidence before an opportunity to delete arose. By virtue of having more than one camera, that would be very difficult to delete without clearly being seen to do so.

I really don't want to be cycling in an environment where a helmet cam is needed, but I will be travelling with a compact camera handy, and from now on I will report any bus or taxi which strays into our protected space. That is because I believe that professional drivers need to be held to account.

B Fraser
29th Apr 2012, 20:36
I'm sure the police will be very grateful for your services as a fluorescent crime fighting super-hero. Are you going to give yourself a name or will you let the duty sergeant do that for you ?

jabird
29th Apr 2012, 20:57
FOR:

Thank you jabird - an interesting and worth while contribution.

Thanks. Well I started thre thread because I thought it would be of interest to ppruners, and it clearly is, whatever position they take.

My motivation for the camera comes from what can be read here (Cyclist hit and run justice campaign, Australia)

I think it is a question of individual choice. I personally feel comfortable on the roads I ride, most drivers are respectful, I play by the rules, but I also am deeply aware that I only have to lose concentration once, and that it only takes one idiot driver.

I won't comment of an earlier contribution in this thread reflecting on my motives. It goes beyond the scope of this forum and frankly, would IMHO be a waste of time.


There are some people here who are openly hostile to us. That is their right, but let's just hope they are not involved in an accident with a cyclist.

Jetblast exists for arguments and heated exhanges - if I wanted cream tea and cucumber sandwiches, I wouldn't have posted here. If you want to do something beyond just arguing, then, as with any cause, there are groups out there to argue your (our) cause and I suggest you join them.

That's what yesterday in London was about.

As before: fly safely, drive safely, ride safely.

Exactly.

jabird
15th May 2012, 00:51
This one was in the Times today:

We jump red lights for our own safety, cyclists claim | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3414065.ece)

Cyclists feel forced to jump red lights due to dangerous road design and law-breaking drivers, a survey has revealed.

Of the 2 per cent of cyclists who admitted that they regularly jump red lights, the main reason cited was that they felt safer by getting ahead of other traffic at dangerous junctions.

I think the Times is running a very important campaign, but they discredit themselves with this article.

Most cyclists who run red lights do so because they can get away with it, pure and simple.

TWT
15th May 2012, 02:22
There are some people here who are openly hostile to usHi Jabird,speaking only for myself I have no problem with cyclists that attempt to share the road with motorists,obey the road rules etc and show some consideration (like moving over occasionally to allow a line of cars to pass them).

It's the rogue element that gets people wound up,many examples already cited on this thread.

What I don't understand at all is that,for a lot of cyclists,there seems to be no innate sense of self-preservation.Just one mistake by a motorist and you're toast.No sense of the 'what if' scenario.No defensive riding skills.To me,that's like trying to run across an 8 lane motorway which has a 70mph speed limit.Just not a good idea.It's not a matter even of who has right of way.You can't argue that the motorist didn't give way to you from the morgue.

sisemen
15th May 2012, 02:36
Sundays are lycra days.

This Sunday pack of identically lycra dressed louts on the road the first few were single file then shortly in front they were double file and in front of them there were six in triple file. This caused the traffic to back up and start honking. And this was greeted by fingers and abuse from the lycra louts who continued what they were doing.

The rub was they were on the main road and alongside was a brand new wide, bitumen cycle track that had cost millions to build ('cos Perth seems to be in thrall to these idiots).

Jabird hasn't got the message yet that he is in the lion's den posting about cycling on this forum. And he keeps resurrecting this dead thread to push his lycra message. :yuk:

Tableview
15th May 2012, 06:06
lycra dressed louts on the road ............ in triple file. This caused the traffic to back up and start honking. And this was greeted by fingers and abuse from the lycra louts who continued what they were doing.

The rub was they were on the main road and alongside was a brand new wide, bitumen cycle track that had cost millions to build

Eggs Ack Ally .......... and I see this in three places where I drive regularly in different countries. I have almost got to the stage where if I saw someone 'accidentally' nudge them out of the way I'd look the other way.

SpringHeeledJack
15th May 2012, 06:37
I mentioned this fact earlier in the thread, but will say it again. The vast majority of cyclists, especially the 'lycra' variants are car owners and motorists themselves, so any egocentric behaviour is puzzling to say the least. Perhaps it's the persona they take on when on the racing bike, just as many a mild mannered soul who becomes a tyrant once behind the wheel of a protective shell.


SHJ

Alloa Akbar
15th May 2012, 07:56
Sise - To be fair, Jabird is actually almost being fair in his posts and observations

Most cyclists who run red lights do so because they can get away with it, pure and simple

Lets not be too hard on the fellow, after all he's a lycra wearer himself.. he has enough problems. :p

stuckgear
15th May 2012, 08:09
as a car driver and a bike owner and living on one of the most popular cycle-ays in the south, i can see both sides of it.

the problem is, we have have different groups vying for dominence and lobbying for personal interests.

it's really quite simple, if you are on a public road, in a car, motorbike, cycle, horse, horse drawn carriage (we have horses on the roads in our area too, so it gets ineteresting when jodphurs (yum), lycra-louts and audi's meet on the same winding, hilly country road) obey the highway code, give thought to other road users and their mode of transport, and that includes HGV's as they have limited vision, limited manoueverability and limited space, if you are on a public highway you *are* subject to te highway code, even if you use shanks's pony.

sisemen
15th May 2012, 08:32
Jabird is actually almost being fair in his posts and observations


A fair point but why the resurrection of a dead thread merely to push the lycra line again?? Maybe he just wants to create angst. Maybe he's a secret masochist (that might fit in with the cycling and lycra :E)

Windy Militant
15th May 2012, 08:43
the problem is, we have have different groups vying for dominence and lobbying for personal interests.
Like this you mean!
BBC News - Gloucestershire cycle altercation couple sought by police (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-gloucestershire-18057463)

TWT
15th May 2012, 09:02
Looks like she's wearing lycra too,just not of the lurid and short variety.
Maybe there's something that happens when you slip that lycra on which changes your personality ?

stuckgear
15th May 2012, 09:05
nice arse though !

Alloa Akbar
15th May 2012, 09:19
nice arse though !

Seconded! :ok:

jabird
15th May 2012, 21:46
What I don't understand at all is that,for a lot of cyclists,there seems to be no innate sense of self-preservation.

I don't understand it either, but as has been commented further up, in some cases it is just teenagers being teenagers. The most suicidal ones round here are young, no lights, dark clothed. :ouch::ouch:

Us "identically clothed lycra louts" (you mean clothed - like a team perhaps) do usually look before we leap, but there is just no excuse for the bad manners you describe, end of.

The rub was they were on the main road and alongside was a brand new wide, bitumen cycle track that had cost millions to build ('cos Perth seems to be in thrall to these idiots).

Without seeing the track, it is hard to comment, but unless the track has the same priority at junctions as the parallel road, I wouldn't use it myself.

I very rarely use the tracks here - and even on the one that is largely un-interrupted, there is a high risk of getting tyres shredded.

Without getting into a long technical rant which really will bore you all senseless, it really isn't all about painting white lines on pavements. The infrastructure is only as good as its weakest point, and I'm afraid far too many councils spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on crap lanes which infuriate serious cyclists as much as they annoy motorists who ask why they aren't used.

The long one I mentioned above is great until you meet the A45, where no provision is made to help either pedestrians or cyclists across.

Jabird hasn't got the message yet that he is in the lion's den posting about cycling on this forum. And he keeps resurrecting this dead thread to push his lycra message.

This is pprune, not Top Gear, but it isn't surprising there's a lot in common. I have no problem with a bit of turbulence, this forum is called JetBlast for a reason.

I posted because the Times article was widely circulated and I thought it was worth mentioning it - mainly because they did themselves no favours with the 2% claim. In London it is closer to 20% and I don't buy the safety argument.

On the whole though, the Times campaign is a big step forward, but they seem to have fallen into the trap of running any story which suits their ends without thinking it through.

I suppose it was like chucking a bit of steak to salivating hounds, and you all lapped it up.

We can keep going or we can move on. :cool:

Either way, this thread is a lot more interesting than the Coventry thread on A,A&R! Now if any of you want to go on there and come up with a business plan to rescue our Portakabin terminal, I'll happily send myself to Coventry here :mad:

sisemen
16th May 2012, 01:34
Without seeing the track, it is hard to comment

Not the same location in Perth but the track was to the same standard

http://www.pedestrians.org/images/episodes51to60/episode56.jpg

http://www.bicyclenetwork.com.au/media/vanilla/KentStwebpage(1).jpg

KAG
16th May 2012, 03:15
JabirdThe headline ends - all in the name of the Olympics, but I don't want this to get mixed in with the Olympics thread, as it is more a case of continued bungling by the city council where the bike was invented.

Hi Jabird, you are from Coventry right? The city council is Coventry?
It seems you are a bit confused with the history of bicycle.
But I understand, being from Coventry, where does your confusion come from, please follow the short story bellow, and it appears that yes Coventry is involved, but not like what you thought:

Pierre Michaux (French), Bar le Duc June 25, 1813 - Paris - 1883) was a blacksmith who furnished parts for the carriage trade in Paris during the 1850s and 1860s. He started building bicycles with pedals in the early 1860s. He, or his son Ernest, may have been the inventor of this machine, by adapting cranks and pedals on the front wheel of a draisine. In 1868 he formed a partnership with the Olivier brothers under his own name, Michaux et Cie ("Michaux and company"), which was the first company to construct bicycles with pedals on a large scale, a machine which was called a velocipede at the time, or "Michauline".

In 1868 a Michaux cycle was brought to Coventry, England by Rowley Turner, sales agent of the Coventry Sewing Machine Company (which soon became the Coventry Machinist Company). His uncle, Josiah Turner, together with business partner James Starley used this as a basis for the 'Coventry Model' in what became Britain's first cycle factory.


------------------------------------------------------------
Coventry did produce (and improved) the french bicycle, this part is true.


Ancestors of bicycles (and motorcycles) have to be found in Italy Leonardo Da Vinci, and Germany, Baron Karl Von Drais.

stuckgear
16th May 2012, 07:26
oh christ here we go again.. france the birthplace of civilization !!!

:zzz:


The first verifiable claim for a practically-used bicycle belongs to German Baron Karl von Drais, a civil servant to the Grand Duke of Baden in Germany. Drais invented his Laufmaschine (German for "running machine") of 1817 that was called Draisine (English) or draisienne (French) by the press. Karl von Drais patented this design in 1818, which was the first commercially successful two-wheeled, steerable, human-propelled machine, commonly called a velocipede, and nicknamed hobby-horse or dandy horse.[7] It was initially manufactured in Germany and France. Hans-Erhard Lessing found from circumstantial evidence that Drais' interest in finding an alternative to the horse was the starvation and death of horses caused by crop failure in 1816 ("Eighteen Hundred and Froze to Death," following the volcanic eruption of Tambora).[8] On his first reported ride from Mannheim on June 12, 1817, he covered 13 km (eight miles) in less than an hour.[9] Constructed almost entirely of wood, the draisine weighed 22 kg (48 pounds), had brass bushings within the wheel bearings, iron shod wheels, a rear-wheel brake and 152 mm (6 inches) of trail of the front-wheel for a self-centering caster effect. This design was welcomed by mechanically minded men daring to balance, and several thousand copies were built and used, primarily in Western Europe and in North America. Its popularity rapidly faded when, partly due to increasing numbers of accidents, some city authorities began to prohibit its use.


The concept was picked up by a number of British cartwrights; the most notable being Denis Johnson of London announcing in late 1818 that he would sell an improved model.[11] New names were introduced when Johnson patented his machine “pedestrian curricle” or “velocipede,” but the public preferred nicknames like “hobby-horse,” after the children’s toy or, worse still, “dandyhorse,” after the foppish men who often rode them.[7] Johnson's machine was an improvement on Drais's, being notably more elegant: his wooden frame had a serpentine shape instead of Drais's straight one, allowing the use of larger wheels without raising the rider's seat. During the summer of 1819 the "hobby-horse", thanks in part to Johnson's marketing skills and better patent protection, became the craze and fashion in London society. The dandies, the Corinthians of the Regency, adopted it, and therefore the poet John Keats referred to it as "the nothing" of the day. Riders wore out their boots surprisingly rapidly, and the fashion ended within the year, after riders on sidewalks were fined two pounds.
Nevertheless, Drais' velocipede provided the basis for further developments: in fact, it was a draisine which inspired a French metalworker around 1863 to add rotary cranks and pedals to the front-wheel hub, to create the first pedal-operated "bicycle" as we today understand the word

The first mechanically-propelled 2-wheel vehicle was believed to have been built by Kirkpatrick MacMillan, a Scottish blacksmith, in 1839. A nephew later claimed that his uncle developed a rear-wheel drive design using mid mounted treadles connected by rods to a rear crank, similar to the transmission of a steam locomotive. Proponents associate him with the first recorded instance of a bicycling traffic offence, when a Glasgow newspaper reported in 1842 an accident in which an anonymous "gentleman from Dumfries-shire... bestride a velocipede... of ingenious design" knocked over a pedestrian in the Gorbals and was fined five British shillings

Tableview
16th May 2012, 07:36
france the birthplace of civilization !!!

But it is. They invented and/or perfected, in no particular order:


Aviation and the principle of lift
The automotive industry
The wheel
Sex (all varieties)
Food
Wine
Fashion
Women
Song
Music
Printing
Religion
Photography
Computers
Electricity
Paper
Nuclear power
Railways
Banking
The Euro
The France
Napoleonism
Socialism
Capitalism
Communism
Weather (good only of course)
Telephony and radio
Computers
War
Peace
Perfection
Chocolate
Bread

Please accept my humblest apologies should I have omitted anything. I am not French, therefore not perfect.

stuckgear
16th May 2012, 07:44
Alas, tableview, neither the bike nor coventry are on the list.

perhaps rather than lycra, cycle clothing should include a breton shirt, beret, baguette under the arm and a gauloise between the lips. string of onions around the neck - optional.

sisemen
16th May 2012, 10:07
Zut alors! And not a Coventarian in sight!!

http://encycl.opentopia.com/enimages/1003/1002036/French_Onion_Seller.jpg

jabird
16th May 2012, 12:17
Siseman,

Forgive me for forgetting which Perth you were talking about! Given the photos you have shown, I would gladly ride in both of those lanes, especially the top one!

However, a lane which ends at a junction which has no provision to continue is still about as useful as the Dutch mountain rescue team.

KAG - yes, we discussed this at the start of the thread. The James Starley statue in Coventry claims "inventor of the bicycle". "Father of the modern bike" would be more accurate, but either way we have a proud history of cycle manufacture which is not being carried forward into cycling provision, imho.

Alas, tableview, neither the bike nor coventry are on the list.

Actually, the lighting system in Coventry is adopted from a similar scheme in Lyon. There are plenty of connections between France and Coventry, even if Peugeot / Talbot are no longer making cars here. They even tried to bring Concorde into CVT, and let's not forget that when it comes to aviation, there is the small question of Mr Whittle and his engines - another product with multiple heritages.

I could rant about the irony of the birthplace of the jet engine having not passenger flights, but as per yesterday that is one for the CVT AA&R thread.

Re: earlier comments about ppruners v bikes, I don't see the same conflict between bike and car as I do between bike and plane. Where do we actually get in each other's way, apart from GIB and I don't fancy my chances running a red light there!

Some cyclists take their bikes on planes, I have done a couple of times and found it way too much hassle. So what? I fly somewhere then hire or borrow a bike if I want one.

There are a number of high profile people within our industry who are keen cyclists, including the boss of a buzzy regional airline. However, Stelios doesn't seem to have registered "easyride.com" as part of his future empire, even if he could put that to several different uses.

If you look at the "Boris bikes" in London, their model is remarkably similar to the easyJet model - low initial usage fee (£1), then free for the first 30 mins, with the rental fee rising sharply after that to £10 after 1hr 31 mins, just like airlines' yield management systems.

hval
16th May 2012, 19:56
I noticed this thread the other day, and watched cyclists on my way home. Six cyclists; only one of whom was on the road. All the others were on footways or cycling across controlled pedestrian crossings. On one crossing a young child was nearly run over by one of the cyclists.

Yesterday, again, I was walking along a footway following other pedestrians. Along came a cyclist, at high speed, forcing everyone to jump out of his way.

Tonight, on the way home, I am turning right at a T junction that had traffic lights. The traffic lights were green for me. Some moron on a bicycle decides that he is able to ignore a red light and ride through it, causing me to slam my brakes on to avoid running him over. What a complete [email protected]*er. I got a very dismissive look from the cyclist, as if it was my fault.

I really should get cameras for the car to film them and then post the films on YewTube

B Fraser
16th May 2012, 20:52
For the record, I love the French. They are a wonderful race who have perfected many things however the list of items that have been claimed is bolleaux.



Aviation and the principle of lift - yes powered flight with the Montgolfier brothers, I'll give you that one.
The automotive industry - non ! The 2CV is a fun car but they have yet to produce a single truly great car.
The wheel - it took a Scotsman to fit a rubber tyre to a wooden hoop.
Sex (all varieties) - I think the Greeks invented a particular genre which probably explains why their economy is buggered.
Food - ok, I'll give you that one
Wine - the Romans did pretty well while the French were perfecting the art of transporting large rocks.
Fashion - French Knickers, forget the rest.
Women - An acceptable improvement on their cousins towards the East however you have to go North for the very best.
Song - Surely you jest ? At least the Germans have Kraftwerk
Music - see above, the country is a one hit wonder with Je Ne Regret Rien. Two if you count Jean Michelle Jaare with "beep beep toot"
Printing - The Chinese, Gutenberg and Caxton suggest otherwise
Religion - please explain
Photography - Fox Talbot from Blighty
Computers - Babbage, again from North of La Manche
Electricity - Volta was Italian
Paper - The Egyptians, Chinese etc.
Nuclear power - the Americans developed the first super critical pile in a squash court.
Railways - England
Banking - Italians, from the word banco meaning bench
The Euro - I blame the French too.
The France - who else ?
Napoleonism - Corsica but nothing to be proud of, he did however keep up the tradition of surrendering.
Socialism - wasn't a new idea.
Capitalism - wasn't a new idea.
Communism - wasn't a new idea.
Weather (good only of course) - They have climate, we have weather.
Telephony and radio - Bell and some chaps in Oxford for radio, Marconi did it properly
Computers - See above
War - not very good at it
Peace - you mean collaboration ?
Perfection - plenty of it in France, I'll grant you that.
Chocolate - The coco harvest in Nantes is famous the world over....not.
Bread - If you mean Le Baton then Napoleon did invent the shape so his cavalry could tuck it into their boots while on horseback.

Tableview
16th May 2012, 21:11
the list of items that have been claimed is bolleaux.

B Fraser

I was being facetious, but I love your explanations!

An acceptable improvement on their cousins towards the East however you have to go North for the very best.
There I disagree strongly. Most Eastern European women are infinitely more attractive and pleasant than the French. For a start they don't think the world owes them a living.

jabird
16th May 2012, 21:57
For the record, I love the French. They are a wonderful race who have perfected many things however the list of items that have been claimed is bolleaux.

That is a great list, if a little off piste (of the summer downhill lycra lout variety).

hval -

On one crossing a young child was nearly run over by one of the cyclists.

All very legitimate points, and the usual twitterati have been out today trying to "condemn" the IAM "poll" mentioned in the article above.

The claim that "only" 2% of cyclists jump lights is, as TV might say, indeed, utter bolleaux.

That is why we need a serious push towards proper recognition of cycling in this country, however counter-intuitive that may seem. Infrastructure is 1/4 of the pie - the other elements are training, promotion and enforcement - both of idiot cyclists and idiot drivers, of whom there are also many.

However, if you want an accident stat - 2009, zero pedestrians killed by bikes, 426 killed by cars. You could repeat similar stats for any other metric - I have never heard of a cyclist killing a car user directly (as opposed to fatal accidents where the cyclist is the cause and even this is not well documented).

I really do deplore the actions of many of my fellow ilk (actually we have nothing in common apart from the metal below us), but bad cyclists are far more a nuisance than they are a danger - except of course to themselves. :ugh:

Wow!

Meanwhile, it turns out that Clarkson does love cycling - in Copenhagen at least ! :D:D:D

Motorman Clarkson praises cycling | The Times (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3379782.ece)

B Fraser
16th May 2012, 22:13
I was being facetious

and so was I :p

It's interesting to note that the chosen fuel for the first powered Montgolfier ascent was the burning of wool and old shoes as it was thought that those materials gave off the best lifting vapours. The first 3 aeronauts were a sheep, a chicken and a duck. One was a beast of the ground, the next was a bird of the ground and the last was a true bird of the air. The thinking of the day was that there was an unknown property in the atmosphere that was very different to standing on a much higher mountainside.

I like to think that had we been the first, we would have sent up a chap in a coarse tweed jacket with a bottle of brandy for use in an emergency.

sisemen
17th May 2012, 07:56
Somebody missed barbeques off the list.

BBQ - Joan d'Arc :E

I like to think that had we been the first, we would have sent up a chap in a coarse tweed jacket with a bottle of brandy for use in an emergency.

This chap went one better and sent up his servant judging that it was a tad too dangerous to do it himself

Sir George Cayley, 6th Baronet (27 December 1773 – 15 December 1857) was a prolific English engineer and one of the most important people in the history of aeronautics. Many consider him the first true scientific aerial investigator and the first person to understand the underlying principles and forces of flight

The first adult aviator has been claimed to be either Cayley's coachman, footman or butler

Alloa Akbar
17th May 2012, 08:39
Monsieur Le Boef

One assumes Madame Le Boef was putting Les Petite Boef's to bed giving you a window for that little effort.. well done again, however if I may offer a counter to some of your points..

1. French Women - Czech's are sexier, the Dutch.. aaaaahhh The Dutch.. :O

2. Automotive - You mean the French Car industry which was led by Coventry?? :ok:

3. Concorde - They killed it. No excuses, no forgiveness, they killed it, demonstrating an abject and catastrophic failure to appreciate engineering brilliance.

4. Eiffel Tower - Easy peasey, we knocked one up in Blackpool and stuck it on the roof in half the time.

5. French Foreign Legion - Hardest blokes in NATO.. cos they are Foreign!!

:ok:

hval
17th May 2012, 09:44
Jabird,

Thank you for your response.

I try to be as pro cyclist as possible. I even understand that it is safer for cyclists to make use of footways in some locations. What I am unable to accept is the arogant attitude that quite a few cyclists appear to have in that they may do as they wish, and everyone else is at fault when there is an incident.

There are also bad drivers as well, mind you. My pet hates are:- not indicating, driving with fog lights on, tail gating, driving in Lane 2 or 3 on a motorway when Lane 1 is empty. You get an awful lot of that in Scotland. I would say, how ever, that a higher percentage of cyclists require education.

B Fraser
17th May 2012, 11:18
French Foreign Legion - Hardest blokes in NATO

I spent two hours drinking and skateboarding with them. We were on a train at the time heading to Amsterdam so we took turns to roll up to the bar in the buffet car and skateboard back holding a round of drinks while the others sang the regimental anthem. Among their team were a Mexican, a Texan and a Brummie, some of the nicest blokes you could meet. I was on my way to a meeting the following day whereas they were heading for the interesting part of town (turn left out of the station and head towards the church spire).

It didn't occur to me to ask why they had brought the skateboard on a tour of the knocking shops. Either way, it was one of those surreal life-enhancing experiences.

jabird
17th May 2012, 18:53
Among their team were a Mexican, a Texan and a Brummie

Hmm, can you make a joke out of that?

jabird
17th May 2012, 18:58
What I am unable to accept is the arogant attitude that quite a few cyclists appear to have in that they may do as they wish, and everyone else is at fault when there is an incident.

I don't think there is a single contributor to this thread who would disagree with that. Anyone want to have a go?

I would say, how ever, that a higher percentage of cyclists require education.

Again, that is a hard statement to disagree with. By definition, 100% of legal drivers have had education - and truck and bus drivers even more so.

Yet there are still some shockingly bad drivers out there, and they are statistically a far greater risk to cyclists than even the very worst headphone wearing, dark clothes wearing, drunk, smoking, texting, pavement riding and traffic light ignoring cyclist could ever be to them.

If all car drivers were trained to the same level of pilots, I don't think we'd have a safety problem - but society accepts the risk as it stands. Mile for mile, our roads are very comparable with the Dutch - if you are in a car. On a bike, ours are 4 times as dangerous - so we still have a long way to go, starting with significantly more Bikeability training in schools.

finfly1
17th May 2012, 19:24
OK I've ridden various bicycles about 10,000 kilometers or so in my lifetime, the overwhelming percent in the US, specifically Long Island, NY.

It is my 'perception' that it has, in fact, become far more dangerous to ride today than it was, say twenty years ago. There are far more cars on the same roads, but in addition: (a) the amount of free-floating anger seems to have increased exponentially, which is in itself bad enough, but (b) the type and amount of distractions with which today's drivers are amusing themselves leaves one wondering how they ever manage a peek out the windshield (windscreen). They have their phones, iphones, gps units, dvd players, radios, laptops, makeup, books, magazines and, one supposes, even an occassional roadmap.

When one is riding 12 inches from their fenders, one is never without the sense that a split second distraction from one or more of these toys could cost one their life. The notable lack of dedicated bike lanes leaves one with little sympathy for riders who DO have them, irrespective of their drawbacks.

stuckgear
17th May 2012, 19:32
that's a good point about distractions and anger, also i see pedestrians and cyclists with bloody white cables dangling out of their ears, oblivious to what is going on around them and often very prone to agressive reactive responses to 'danger stimulus'.

Lon More
29th May 2012, 11:19
I bet the OP already has this (http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=14&products_id=55) :sad:

RedhillPhil
29th May 2012, 11:54
that's a good point about distractions and anger, also i see pedestrians and cyclists with bloody white cables dangling out of their ears, oblivious to what is going on around them and often very prone to agressive reactive responses to 'danger stimulus'.

Not forgetting of course the - mostly young male - drivers cruising around with what sounds like a mobile disco booming out of the car. They're ever present to emergency vehicle sirens.

Carry0nLuggage
29th May 2012, 12:54
LM: A similar idea, but less damaging, was the reflective disk on a stalk which was all the rage among slower, more nervous cyclists some years ago. Popular until it was discovered that motorists would enjoy clipping them with their nearside bumpers (fenders) on the way past.

None of the above
4th Jul 2012, 10:20
From The Times. (http://www.thetimes.co.uk/tto/public/cyclesafety/article3464777.ece)

A cyclist was convicted yesterday of knocking over and severely injuring a leading solicitor after ignoring a red light and sending the victim spinning into the road. Article concludes...

Schipka, a German citizen, denied having skipped the red light and disputed that he had not given due consideration to the pedestrians waiting to cross at the junction. Gaye Cheyne, chairwoman of the bench, said that he had shown a “lack of care and competence” and had been cycling at an “unsafe speed” as he rode towards a group of pedestrians. She said the maximum fine the bench could impose was £1,000 and that she would not award compensation because it was inevitable that civil proceedings would follow. I wonder if he's insured.

Lon More
4th Jul 2012, 13:23
it was discovered that motorists would enjoy clipping them with their nearside bumpers (fenders) on the way past.

Damn, never thought of that...:oh:

Saturday a.m., on the way to the UK a traffic report on the Belgian radio warning of a group of cyclists (debieler wielers) heading the wrong way along the outside lane of the E40 (Oostende to Brussel) :ugh::ugh::ugh: presumeably in the standard head down full Eddy Merx mode and staring at the front wheel.
HIH can people do that. The only explanation is

they were Belgians


they were cyclists


possibly full of drugs

sisemen
4th Jul 2012, 15:19
...or...

• they were Brits and they had forgotten they were in Belgium

• they were cyclists

• possibly full of drugs

Lon More
4th Jul 2012, 20:12
a pssibility Siseman. However, as I didn't run into them I am unable to confirm or deny it.

berliner57
8th Jul 2012, 19:04
There was some sort of cycle race/meet today, happens every year always seem to get caught in it, however they were under steward/marshall control for coming out of a side road, where traffic on the main road were given priorty as usual they completly disregarded the sterard and just rode out, even the steward was annoyed with them.

Even though there was a few idiots in the group i gave them a wide berth and only passed when safe which was difficult as some were riding 2-3 abreast.

OFSO
8th Jul 2012, 20:54
happens every year

Aye, happens every year here too, around Easter, for weeks roads are blocked by 20 or 30 or 40 French cyclists driving not very fast followed by a French-registered car driving very slowly with its flashers on. Few miles up (or down) the road you meet another one. Obviously they are practicing for an event but why do they come over the border and practice it here rather than in France ?

The race itself (if there is one) is something one approves of, but not the blocking of roads preceeding.

sisemen
9th Jul 2012, 00:26
As ani fule no there is a bike race on at the moment and it seems to bring out the amateurs in their (yellow!) lycra (one wonders whether this is the equivalent of coming out of the kids cinema with your mac tied around your neck - cape fashion - having watched the latest episode of Flash Gordon).

Anyway.... one cannot escape the snippets on the news even though one studiously avoids the main coverage and what amazes me is how often the supposed professionals seem to have trouble staying upright on their bikes with regular mass crashes occurring. :ok:

What hope is there for the majority of law abiding road users (anything other than bicycles!) avoiding the amateurs?

sisemen
25th Sep 2012, 15:33
And then there's this richard head*. "No offence has been committed" say the police. Self-righteous prick - bet he's a vegan and eats muesli as well. I'll bet his family are really pleased with having to watch his videos rather than real telly. They're probably looking forward to his funeral. :E

BBC News - Clacton cyclist Alan Spink films 'near-misses' (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-essex-19710937)

mike-wsm
25th Sep 2012, 16:02
Happens every year...

...back in the days when I was younger and stupid enough to pay state fool tax, one would come upon a phalanx of cyclists, heads down and pedalling fast in some crazily low gear like they do. This on a narrow, twisting country lane with occasional oncoming traffic. They formed a solid stream over a hundred yards long and often covering two consecutive bends. Unsafe to pass yet too slow to trickle along behind. If you did try to pass and then had to cut in you'd be surrounded by them, all banging on your roof and yelling. Horrible animals!

spInY nORmAn
25th Sep 2012, 19:37
If you watch Mr Spink's video it appears that he is riding his bike well away from the left side of the road thus forcing drivers to move over to and across the centre-line. When I ride my bike I try to stay as close to the shoulder as possible out of consideration for other road users and to keep myself as far away from large, heavy, fast-moving lumps of steel. I don't care who has the right-of-way - I do know who will come off worst in the event of a collision.

Mr Spink is a tool looking to make a point that doesn't need making.

Solid Rust Twotter
26th Sep 2012, 05:23
It would be amusing to see him banged up for obstructing traffic and driving without due care and attention next time he drops in to harass Plod with his home movies.