How to stay awake?

[JIC]

hi there....

Anyone who has any good personal tricks for those really early mornings after a really long night to stay awake??:zzz:

Safe flight!!

[OLD METL]

After a decade of night freight I can tell you this:
1. Learn to pace your day and nap consistently. Eat well. Exercise well.
2. Avoid a dependence on caffeine or chemicals. The crash afterwards is more dangerous than the fatigue. I can recall a single-pilot flight where I was blacking out in fits after attempting to stretch my day with caffeine. I was into the sun all morning. I barely got it on the ground and then blacked out for 45".
This is no joke. Never again.
3. Good food. Carry enough for each day. A crew-car run to Mickey D is not good food.
4. Learn to power-nap. This is an acquired skill. I need 30" or so, but I am good for 3-4 hours.
4. Learn the magic words: "Too fatigued to fly." Those words on a recorded line will protect you.

If you are new to the sadistic world of night freight and sleep deprivation, be careful until you know your limits. Be safe!

[Slasher]

Apples. There's something in bloody apples that keep me well
awake a couple of hours. Did try a few other fruits but they all
didn't have the same effect.

Coffee only works so far - the first few hours ok but after that
it doesn't do any good except to keep you awake to go for the
odd piss down the back. I stick to pure water after about the
first 4 hours.

I wolf down two apples cut into quarters after my 20 minute
enroute power nap. From then I'm good to go till I reach the
layover pub or home.

[hardcase]

going into the freezing cold hold for 5mins wakes me up in time for the descent and approach after a quick power nap...also bananas for some reason wakes me up :ok:

[thrustpig]

Discipline and planning are the only long term solution to avoid attention difficulties during any night pattern type operation. Adjust and time your rest / body cycle so you are tired and are able to achieve deep pattern sleep before your duty. Its not easy, you are fighting evolution and some scientific studies indicate that fighting the body clock is toxic and can increase your risk of cancer. Many EU based operations now include an "employer protection clause" against such suits. Sleep tight tonight.

[Best foot forward]

The wifes snoring.

Curry.

[Less Hair]

Stay hydrated. Drink a lot of water. Keeps your circulation going.

Schedule enough daytime rest ahead and after long night flights. Just lay down and relax if you can't sleep. 8 hrs of uninterrupted sleep is what the USAF requires before any shift. No alc, no drugs. Maybe some candy bars.

Good food like mentioned above will make quite a difference.

[Knee Trembler]

I've just started flying night freight and I've aked almost everyone I've met for tips.

Basically, everyone is different and has their own strategy. One thing that is clear though, is that it requires a lot of self disipline both before and after work. You really have to plan your rest and never be tempted, for instance on the first night, to try and make it through. I did that on some of my first observer trips and was fighting a losing battle by 6 am. I really don't remember much about the ride back to the hotel!

Once I'm down route I find it works best for me to sleep once straight after work and then again for a few hours immediately prior to check-in. Our pick up is often around 20.30 local and so it is hard to get to sleep at 5pm but just lying in bed and reading a book helps me store a few reserves for the night.

Luckily, my employer provides sleeping bunks for the pause between flights. Again, some people never use them as they prefer to stay awake, but I find the two hours or so that I can grab there enourmously helpful.

One last point, if you are a commuter. It is so tempting to jump into your car after a night's work and we've all been there, an hour down the motorway and suddenly it hits you. If you are lucky, you can feel it coming and pull over but I increasingly that as I get older, the tiredness comes on much more suddenly and you can have blacked out before you realise what has happened. I try to force myself to get a few hours before I set off home but this is easier said than done!

KT

[shroom]

Nothing substitutes for proper sleep, but interestingly there has been some scientific research that shows that smelling peppermint can increase alertness. So bring some Altoids with you!

[John21UK]

I just use some David Guetta and Rihanna with the earphones at max to get me through it. LOL.

[dazdaz1]

An old Captain once told me this, how he slept for entire sectors.................

Give the f/o a kiss on the cheek while squeezing his knee at the pre flight check. The logic of this action, he'll be too nervous to fall asleep :E

Daz

[Knee Trembler]

David Guetta OK, but Rihanna, pleeeeze! ;)

[Voodoo 3]

Give the f/o a kiss on the cheek while squeezing his knee at the pre flight check. The logic of this action, he'll be too nervous to fall asleep

Of course this could backfire badly and the F/O might respond in a manner you hadn't expected. :ooh: Then it'll be you too terrified to sleep. Who knows you may even get someone offering to tuck you into your crew bunk as a result......

[727gm]

Ah, but either way the required alertnes state is then assured....

[mary meagher]

About those apples, did you peel them? Apple skin contains pectin, and needs more chewing.... somebody might do a study on the stimulating effects of eating apples...

Coffee before a long flight in a glider is a definite no no. I realise that keeping awake all night on a boring flight with the plane flying itself is a real problem. My longest glider flight in the UK was 8 hours and 59 minutes, so long enough to get a bit weary...but never boring.

I have found that bananas are the perfect pickmeup on a long flight in a glider....keeps me alert. And I keep the cockpit tidy by tossing the banana skin out the direct vision panel....which led to a discussion in the club bar,
Question: what is the terminal velocity of a banana skin?
Answer: depends whether or not it is deployed....

[Desert185]

A bottle of 5-hour Energy.

[JanetFlight]

In my small experience the most powerful thing to keeps me alerted and "alive" its any Cola (Excluding the publicity, of course)...Pepsi-Cola, Coca-Cola, etc.
Besides the Opposite-Fact it contains lots of gas, but i think it deserves a try...Happy Ladings, JF :ok:

[JIC]

Hi , thanks for all the good and yes other ideas/suggestions :ok:

Have been doing a little bit of research both on the net and with my doctor.

Apparantly apples do actual have some positive effect on you where coffee will have a negative effect.

So I will be going for power napping, water, apples and dark chocolate.

Thanks for all your inputs guys.

Safe flight!!

[LLuCCiFeR]

Instead of apples, dark chocolate and liters of caffeine drinks (how do you get these through security anyways?) you better do something practical about fatigue:

Wake up EU! | Dead Tired (http://www.dead-tired.eu/wake-up-eu)

p.s. what do caffeine drinks, chocolate and a lack of sleep do your overall health in the long run?

p.p.s. what is this topic doing in "freight dogs" anyways? Fatigue is everywhere in aviation, not just for the freight dogs.

[JIC]

LLuCCiFeR it is in here because I am flying night freight and would like to get some advise from guys who's been doing for some time and could give input on how they cope with the very early morning hours. Not to debat the rules which non of us are happy with!!!

Instead of apples, dark chocolate and liters of caffeine drinks (how do you get these through security anyways?)

How do I get them in? put them in my bag!! The water is on board the aircraft. Dont know how it gets there.:E

you better do something practical about fatigue:
I have sign up on this one

http://flightdutytimes.eu/wpcf7_contact_form/petition/

Which unforunately is out....??:hmm:

But I will look on your page.

Anyway safe flight and don't fall asleep;)

[JIC]

Now I got it to work....

Petition on new flight duty time regulations | Flightdutytimes (http://flightdutytimes.eu/participate/) :ok:

[ElectricWhale]

Personally, loud snoring is the best technique to use to keep the captains awake. ymmv.

EW

[Milarity]

I once worked a shift pattern on 15 days on, 15 days off, getting airborne every 30 hours for a 10 hour flight. This did not break our maximum limit of 120 hours every month, but it was hard graft. It was the rolling 6 hours of jet-lag that hurt the most. I found the best way to handle things was to base my life around the next take-off time and adjust my sleep period by a commensurate 6 hour slip every ‘day’. Sometimes I had to fight to stay awake until bed-time, sometimes I had to use help to get to sleep.

After 6 months of this work pattern, there had been a number of instances of ‘near-misses’. Our management were well aware, but crews were in short supply and the task was essential. We were studied by some boffins from, I seem to recall, Farnborough. I found 2 of their tips to be valuable and work for me.

Firstly was to take power naps, but strictly limit them to either 20 minutes or more than 2 hours. It seems that anything between 20 minutes and 2 hours places you into the wrong type of sleep, and you run the risk of waking up feeling worse than having no sleep.

The other tip was not to be afraid of using hypnotics, such as temazepan, to trigger sleep. They clear your system so quickly that there is no residual effect, even if you have to get up straight away after taking them. This was put to the test by our nav, who dreamt that he could not sleep, got up and took a double dose to make sure, just as his alarm went off. No time to relax, nothing for the drug to work on, no side-effects.

Those on my crew that tried to maintain their normal sleep pattern were next to useless come the early hours.

The other point of interest was the control exercises that the boffins gave us to do after each flight. My performance dropped from finding the exercise easy to complete after the first flight of each cycle, to about 50% performance after the 3rd flight, to being unable to see a single answer from that point onwards. I felt fine but the practical demonstration of how much by mental reasoning was degraded was frightening.

[poorjohn]

Okay, I flogged this in another thread a few months ago so am about to become at risk for being accused of pushing it, but I think it's important to spread the word that 200 mg of modafinil will keep you alert when your brain otherwise would much rather that you sleep. Amazingly if your flight is canceled and you've taken the med, you can still go to bed and get a good night's sleep. You should read wikipedia and talk with your medical advisor of course, but if I were your parent I'd really hope that you had it in your kit.

pj

[Iver]

Two bottles of 5 hour energy = 10 hours of energy! And a heart attack. :}

[allosaurus]

I concur on Modafinil.Latest reports suggest surgeons taking it before long procedures.If its good enough for them its good enough for me:zzz:

[claser111]

Some cargo operators, flying long haul and crossing many zone time, give you courses about sleeping management but it's always a personal matter, some people are able to sleep easier than others. Basic rule is eating good food, not too much, no alcohol and try to take a nap before your flight. Avoid chemicals that help you sleep because many of these medicines are used to regulate the sleep at the same times and usually cargo or long haul flights are never the same times when you should sleep. :\

[skyye]

Does this include natural sleep aids like melatonin ?

In response to the question about where this thread belongs - flying the back side of the clock is a different kind of fatigue altogether with unique challenges.

[Rollingthunder]

When struggling to sleep, especially when jetlagged, I find a couple of drops of Lavender Oil, or a spritz on the pillowcase is a great asset with no side effects.

[claser111]

I'm not a doctor but as far as I know melatonin helps you to adjust the body clock to a regular sleeping time, it means going to bed all the nights at the same time. Depends which kind of flights you have... but, usually, we always change time, that's why melatonin cannot be a solution.

[LLuCCiFeR]

I'm not a doctor but as far as I know melatonin helps you to adjust the body clock to a regular sleeping time, it means going to bed all the nights at the same time. Depends which kind of flights you have... but, usually, we always change time, that's why melatonin cannot be a solution.
Hmmm thanks for that explanation, that could explain why I've had some mixed results with melatonin.

After some lousy experiences (sleepless nights leaving me wrecked, despite having taken melatonin) I generally only use melatonin at home to re-adjust to my home time zone, or sometimes I use it down route if I have a longer lay over (2-3 days) if I need to recover from the cumulative effects after too many nights of insufficient sleep.

When struggling to sleep, especially when jetlagged, I find a couple of drops of Lavender Oil, or a spritz on the pillowcase is a great asset with no side effects. Tried that as well, no result for me.

Fundamentally I think it's more important for the whole aviation industry (colleagues and regulators) to be more focused on how to get sufficient rest, instead of tricks to stay awake.

[skyye]

Thanks, I have heard mixed reviews on that - wondered what you guys thought. A variety of show times here, circadian swaps, both domestic and int'l.; short and long haul.

[FougaMagister]

I'd be VERY wary of using melatonin for sleep regulation. As mentioned above, it will only "work" with regular sleeping patterns - usually not the case for us. Plus have you guys seriously looked at the long list of side effects? It's enough to make you think twice... btw it includes detrimental effects on your testicles! So thanks, but no thanks... These counter-indications are just some of the reasons why melatonin is so tightly regulated over here. Can't get it over the counter, and docs will usually not prescribe it except in very specific circumstances. Just as well.

Anyway, back to the topic... Some of my tricks to stay awake:

- have a good quality of life outside work, ie do not stay up all night on days off etc.
- eat healthily (with reason :} )
- exercise - with reason: when downroute, enough to feel well, but not so much as to feel tired again
- take a nap before the first night of a shift (the first flying night is invariably the hardest)
- no alarm clock before less than 8hrs sleep downroute. If I naturally wake earlier, then so be it, but if my body needs a lot of sleep, I'll let it have it
- drink a lot (water/fruit juices, but not too much coffee)
- get fully rested; while sleep cannot be "stored" in advance, I try to be 100% rested before going flying - that may include a nap before report time
- controlled sleep in flight during sectors that cover the WOCL; ie, don't fight sleep (but leave the audio volume up on Guard on box 2 in case the other pilot falls asleep)
- try to rest/sleep for a while (even if only 30-45min) in a dark/quiet room at the hub during turnaround
- drink water during flights
- stand up sometimes to stretch my legs and/or go the freezing hold
- reasonable cockpit temp, slightly on the fresh side
- have a chewing gum at Top of Descent. Chewing keeps you awake - but digesting doesn't, so I don't eat cereal bars or the like. Some small amount of fruit can help too. Never heard of anyone falling asleep while chewing gum...
- if PNF, keep busy: do fuel checks, pick up VOLMET/ATIS en-route, look up the IFR charts, read the airport brief and/or approach charts yet again, or a chapter from some manual in the cockpit library - but one that won't put you to sleep!

Cheers :cool:

[LLuCCiFeR]

FougaMagister, apologies for the slight thread creep but I don't really agree with a lot you've written about melatonin.

Plus have you guys seriously looked at the long list of side effects? It's enough to make you think twice... btw it includes detrimental effects on your testicles!Come on please! Melatonin is a natural hormone (http://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/tc/melatonin-overview), made by some gland in your body. Melatonin levels begin to rise during late afternoon, and then start to drop again in the early morning hours. If melatonin was bad for your testicles then mother nature would have designed it a different way. Of course I'm not talking about chronic abuse and/or addiction here.

Can't get it over the counter, and docs will usually not prescribe it except in very specific circumstances. Just as well.Well, nothing is allowed in France in particular and Europe in general, unless it is specifically mentioned. Try flying VFR through France... I guess all these regulations keep the bloated bureaucracy and the powerful pharmacy industry busy with prescribing expensive drugs, instead of allowing the citizens to buy a harmless sleeping aid which also happens to be produced by your own body.

However, as I mentioned before, melatonin is pretty much useless in our profession for getting some decent rest before a flight, but I generally have very good experiences using melatonin on the first evening after arriving home from a trip to help me get back into my normal time zone. Oh yeah, my testicles are still there and the do work! ;)

As for the staying awake tips I completely agree with FougaMagister's recommendations, although I find (power) napping before a flight quite difficult (read: impossible) during the day, so I'm usually a total wreck after a long night flight.

[FougaMagister]

I know that melatonin is a natural hormone, but by taking it as a supplement, you are increasing on the amount that your body naturally produces. Hence the possible side-effects I mentioned - something I could have made clearer. (Btw, the pharmaceutical industry is nowhere near as developped or powerful here as in the US, Switzerland or Germany, and our health policy now favours cheaper generic drugs). Sleeping aids should be prescribed/recommended/reviewed by an Aviation Medical Examiner, not just any General Practitioner (since a lot of them are not clued up as to the specifics of our job). However, I share your point 100% regarding bloated bureaucracy... :uhoh:

It's certainly the common-sense "lifestyle" habits that have the greatest impact on my capacity to sleep and recover. That, and generally taking it easy... Regarding lavender oil on the pillowcase, it didn't seem to hurt when I tried it - at least it smells nice! Then again, I'm usually asleep before my head hits the pillow...

Cheers :cool:

(P.S.: I don't find VFR in France harder than in the US or South Africa, and much easier than in the UK for instance!)

[Dan Winterland]

Melatonin is not approved for use by pilots in some Aviation Authority's jurisdictions.




The way I coped with fatigue while flying freight was to resign. I'm now flying short haul, nearly all day flying. I feel much much better!

[747JJ]

Melatonin is naturally occurring in humans, however the melatonin production reduces the older people get. Alas taking melatonin can have two effects. Increasing the level of melatonin in the body and rejuvenating the melatoning production or rather giving it a boost.

Some years ago I was out like a snowman after flying east west cargo with pick up around 1am for every flight from base and with few or no day flights in months. My sleeping patterns went to a mess. I could not sleep for more than a few hours regardless how tired I was. I took a few melatonin tablets when I returned back to base and henceforth slept extremely well. But I only took the melatonin two days in a row not before or since that, 2006 it seems it was but looks like I am up for another doseage soon.

I tend to agree with most of the tricks here. Good food, physical activity,cat naps etc all work for me. Interesting thread to say the least. Thanks for contributing.

[dusk2dawn]

From a "medicine man" of considerable experience I got the impression that the only reason Melatonin is not available OTC in Europa, is that it is not part of any treatment whatsoever. Thus Malatonin is just not permitted despite no known side effects.

[alosaurus]

I struggled with this for years...and agree at the end of the day the best way to stay awake is to sleep well (sometimes before/ after a duty...sometimes controlled rest during the cruise).

Melatonin works (after a duty)....but long term use makes it difficult for you to sleep without ever increasing doses.

The biggest two problems were noise and light encroachment...even if I was exhausted! Then I found this (post 25 onwards)

http://www.pprune.org/questions/472729-preparing-operate-long-haul-night-2.html#post7044170

.....problem solved!!!!!!!!!!

[LLuCCiFeR]

I struggled with this for years...and agree at the end of the day the best way to stay awake is to sleep well (sometimes before/ after a duty...sometimes controlled rest during the cruise).I completely agree and I made this point earlier. Showing up fatigued for a flight duty is the root cause and is something that unfortunately happens all too often in aviation. Even more bizarre and hypocritical is that everybody is completely focussed on the effects of alcohol while the effects of sleep deprivation are similar to those of alcohol but completely ignored when it comes to rest and duty regulations. :confused:

The biggest two problems were noise and light encroachment...even if I was exhausted! Then I found this (post 25 onwards)I don't really have that problem, my biggest problem is winding down in order to fall asleep. Crew planning and the regulators seem to think that humans come with a "sleep/awake" switch, and are able to sleep regardless of the time of day or time zone. For me it simply doesn't work and I can NOT fall asleep at the push of a button.
I've tried everything, from relax/new age music to breathing techniques, nothing really works. :(

[blind pew]

Took dormicon once - never again.

Self hypnosis on layover.

Crew oxygen during flight, KLF and the Fugees, good adventure book - preferably with large print and lots to eat and drink.

Beware anything that gives you wind as once gorged on prunes only to f**t my way across the Atlantic and fall asleep during descent - on my annual route check - fortunately check pilot didn't notice (probably napping as well).
Biggest danger was driving home and our company installed a dormitory although it wasn't always used for the designed purpose.

[Jaz and the Fat Man]

Tell us BP, about your experience with Dormicum. I've been flying long haul 747 for over 20 years and my experience with Dormicum has been nothing but positive if used correctly.

With the limited time on overnights, after crossing several time zones, there is no possible way that you can reset your body clock. The FAA and several other agencies have recognized the problems and using a sleep aid correctly. Taking controlled naps during a flight. Having a bag of mints, which act as a "wake up" aid. Are all time proven. My prep talk to the crew was, "if you feel tired, take a look at the other member/members and make sure someone is awake before you nod off. If you have to make an announcement to the crew you're taking a 45 minute nap, then most times, you'll be unable to sleep. Go figure.

Back to Dormicum, if used correctly, it will provide a good solid 4 hours of sleep and by the time you go to work, it will have flushed out of your system and not detectable in a screen. it's very short acting and not prudent to take if not laying in bed and ready to sleep.

What's better, to be awake and coherent during a flight and especially the approach and landing or to pretend to man it up and be pure.

After flying for 30+ years and spending the nights watching the crew completely knocked out, I believe it's better to be well rested regardless of the means needed.