Air New Zealands future Job Prospects

[Bushwackernz]

Hi All.

I am an Air NZ second officer and have been for the past 5 years on the 747/777. I live in Christchurch, and am at this stage looking at another 5 years untill an airbus A320 FO job out of CHC. That's correct, an A320 FO job. (that is 10 years as an S/O) this is best guess work, and could well be longer.

Please note that this is going to be standard at Air NZ from now on. At the moment an A320 Captain slot at Air NZ is about 20 years from joining. I Repeat , 20 YEARS for an A320 Command!!

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I went to Jetstar now, how long would it take to command??? 3 years maybe?? compared to 20???? this is realistic. I am aware there is a well deserved pay rise on the horizon at Jetstar, which I am sure will overtake Air NZ base pay in the short term(wont take much).

What I am pointing out here, is that if you are looking at Air NZ for a long time career, think again, there are far superior options, you do the figures, don't be fooled, Air NZ maybe a fools game.

Officially Air NZ is now the slowest progressing Airline in the world, it has overtaken Air Canada, depressing I know, but correct.

This post is purely for information only.

All the Best Comrads
Bushwackernz

[waren9]

The training bubble for the 787 and greater than average retirements over the next few years should bring some relief. Might get you into the A320, but it's unlikely to be the left one.

If its the left seat you desire ASAP then your future lies elsewhere.

[theheadmaster]

The only way to a quick command is to either join an airline with a high turnover or one that is expanding. High turnover = poor conditions. Good conditions = low turnover. There is also the danger of joining a new airline that is expanding just until you join. With relatively young crew, it will take some time to get a steady stream of retirements and the new joiner will spend even more time in the right seat.

Simple mathematics would say that in an airline that is neither expanding nor contracting will have crew spend the same ratio of average career time in each position as the ratio of pilots in those positions. For example, if the average age of joining is 30 and average time of retirement 60, there is a career of 30 years. If the crew numbers are 1/3 Second Officer, 1/3 First Officer, 1/3 Captain, then you can expect to spend 1/3 of your time in each position. That is, 10 years in each rank. If the airline is expanding, quick promotion. Airline shrinking, slower promotion.

Now, if you join an airline that expands rapidly for 5 years and the average age of the crew is young so no retirements, and they stop expanding, you could be an F/O (or S/O) for a VERY long time.

These low-cost/pay airlines are kind of like a pyramid selling scheme for crew. Get in quick, get a quick command, and you are sweet, as the captain pay may be well less than the 'legacy' airlines, but you are on that captain pay for way, way longer. Last one in and you are pretty much screwed.

[blah blah blah]

Are you interested in command or lifestyle/remuneration?

If its just about command go to Jetstar etc, or even stay at the links.

Personally Im not too worried about command, Ive had it in previous jobs. Ive also done more interesting flying. For me its all about the terms and conditions, and for that ANZ is hard to beat. Heaps of time off, good money, company doesnt muck you around too much.

For me ANZ is far better than the alternatives.

[KRUSTY 34]

I thought QANTAS mainline was the slowest progressing airline in the world!

Definite trend here of course.

[rmcdonal]

I thought QANTAS mainline was the slowest progressing airline in the world!
Nah, you go from SO on the A330 to FO on the A320 in <4 years, then its only 2-3 years to command, after which you can come back to the Q and pick up your FO spot on the A380. Not slow at all.

[Ollie Onion]

Trust me mate, terms and conditions are far far more important than progression. FO / CAPTAIN for a sh*t airline or SO / FO for Air New Zealand. I think that I would sit fat dumb and happy as an SO, you would be taking a pay cut to go to Jetstar as an FO, would be a minimum of 3 years to command and by then the expansion may have stopped and you might end up stuck as an FO at Jetstar :{

[The Green Goblin]

20 years next to grandad and their WW2 era CRM gets a bit tedious.

I'd hate to be in the back of a 380 at QF or in the right seat of a 330 purely for this reason!

Pilots by their very nature are ambitious and their comes a time when you need to flee the nest and taste the rewards and challenges of being a commander.

None of us joined an airline to sit up the back or in the right seat forever.

I'd happy with anything under 12 years.

[StoffelNZ]

Sorry to hijack the thread, but on the subject of Jetstar, does anyone have any inside goss as to if and when an improved contract will be offered to the pilots based in NZ?

[Sqwark2000]

Is there any recruiting happening for NZ at the moment?

[maggot]

20 years next to grandad and their WW2 era CRM gets a bit tedious.

I'd hate to be in the back of a 380 at QF or in the right seat of a 330 purely for this reason!

you obviously have no idea what the culture is like on the 380 so you prefer to sit back & throw stones :rolleyes: very droll. :hmm:
I've been pleasantly surprised with things in that department - although a few are starting to slip through... :suspect:

[The Green Goblin]

From what I understand the 767/747 fleets have been purged of the A team who now are part of club 380 :cool:

Anywy we can have a thread on here about another airline can we? :hmm:

[Pamelah Andersen]

The golden days at AirNZ have long gone. Expect to be an SO or 320 FO for 20 years. Thats the cold hard reality. Some junior drivers are looking to leave Air NZ for that reason. Don't like it? Leave. The system won't change any time soon. There are some pretty bitter people out there.

Anyone hanging in the wings on an illusive "yes letter" should look at Pac Blue or Jet Star. At least the hands on time is recognised by EK which will give you the option to move on. AirNZ SOs don't really have that option.

[blah blah blah]

By the way is anyone going to mention the recent reinterview of some in the hold pool? Starts in May confirmed with more to follow later in the year.

[c100driver]

When you look at the demography of all legacy airlines then you will see that the flat lining is only a matter of time before there will be huge surge through the ranks. The slow down is really a product of the change in retirement ages.

The Air NZ pilots getting onto the Airbus LHS are all approaching 50 and those getting to the B767 and B777 are approaching 60. This is a huge bubble moving through but stalled by the pensioners not leaving the airline.

When this bubble finally bursts it is all going to hell in a hand basket with the movement expected.

[Sqwark2000]

Starts in May confirmed with more to follow later in the year.

New hire course for 5 advertised recently, (not sure of the fleet, but would assume the 777)

Also heard that that could be this years quota.

[blah blah blah]

Starts are on 777, another course is planned for later in the year, some guys already pencilled in on it.

[framer]

This is a huge bubble moving through but stalled by the pensioners not leaving the airline.


The pensioners? why should they leave?
People will always do whats best for them and their family, it's part of being a successful animal and has been so for 40,000 years+.
People who spend time moaning about those who stay on after 60 are wasting their own time and energy. Just forget about it 'cause human nature aint about to change in a hurry.

[scroogee]

and of course when those currently whinging about the old farts in cockpit get to that age, they'll all stay on as long as possible too... 'it happened to me, it's your turn', 'i've got 3 ex's and 4 rugrats to support' and 'retire? the boss doesn't want me under her feet for the next 20 years' etc.

[Cpt Link Hog]

Being S/o = shame being one at ANZ = good luck suckers :{

[SilverSleuth]

Bitching moaning, bitching moaning! Everyone thinks they are owed something these days. All the posts here are an example of what the Indusitry today has become. To the S/O who whinges why he isn't a Captain yet, shows you are not ready to be one!!! And if you don't like it....... Tough!

[kmagyoyo]

Mmmmm you sound allot like a CX A-scaler who got his command in 3 years, does every sector and can't understand why no-one has a beer with him on an overnight.

[pakeha-boy]

well mate...back in the late 70,s early 80s...tried 5000 times to get on with ANZ
.......at the time,you essentially needed ....a letter from the pope...one from the prime minister....a "good bloke" letter from Sir Arthur Porritt..... have had tea and crumpet with Muldoons wife .....and graduated from Auckland boys Grammer.... with Honours
.............none of which I had,could steal or bribe for....so I left......it hasnt been a bad ride...... my advice,...make your own flying career,dont let anyone else make for u......its not that bad on the "outside"..............and ...no whinging,it wont do you any favours

[Gate_15L]

The only people that could have an idea would be those that have done both, S/O and Command at a LCC/other operator.

There are guys/girls that have done exactly that... Air NZ S.Os have left before you..

Everyone thinks they are owed something these days.

No everybody doesn't, but screw you if I'm already at the top... nice.. I'm sure your a dream to fly with...

With no definite retirement age, as a certain court case set precedent for I see your pain... Sure the older generation do deserve to stay there.. but quite rightly as has been said, they probably got their commands after 3-4 years...
Did they even have S.O positions back in those days?

It's not the Air NZ S.Os that are the suckers.. they deserve a shot, but through unfortunate timing, you probably won't see a command this side of 60. Might explain why most people leaving the links are off to Virgin/Jetstar/Cobham...

Air NZ Human Resources won't see this as a problem as they've already counted on some of you leaving and have started a cadet scheme in time for the planned hump in 10 years.

It comes down to this, whats more important? Lifestyle or a Command..?

You can have a (jet) command based in NZ, however the conditions aren't Air NZ... and they aren't Emirates but they are very livable...

[slamer.]

Capt link hog.... one of the more amateurish contributions Ive read here in a while.

[Sand dune Sam]

Hey PB..like most legacy carriers mate...you dont have the space shuttle type rating mate, thats where you fell down...:ok:

[pakeha-boy]

sand dune sam......youve read the script mate...and I beleive that "rating" would have turned the tide for sure!!!!.......but the kiwi space programme was just a dream in the wind

some of these young fellas will learn the youth and skill will eventually turn to old age and treachery.....some of us get good at it.....life is a gr8 meat pie and cold tinnie....

[haughtney1]

some of these young fellas will learn the youth and skill will eventually turn to old age and treachery.....some of us get good at it.....life is a gr8 meat pie and cold tinnie....

Pure class PB, pure class..now say after me "the french can't build jets..":E

[pakeha-boy]

H1....Yeah mate...never a truer word spoken.....you would think that after being on this thing the same amount of time it takes to chug 987,321 tinnies I would have a handle on it....but just about evey other day its

WTF!!! IS THIS THING DOING NOW????.........

Go Hurricanes!!

[mattyj]

I think by space shuttle rating he was referring to the B1900D as operated by airnz link with the purest most Zen form of SOPs.

[pakeha-boy]

mattij...I have flown the 1900 A-B Models .....they looked like space shuttles...and probably flew like them....get a kick out of the number of trim tabs the new ones have

[pakeha-boy]

"Quote"...Give me variety and realistic progression mixed with a bunch of good bastards that enjoy what they do and are always up for a beer on an overnight any day of the week!

cheeky buggar for sure....mate..when you were swinging in your dads bags ,....I was loading them.....

[The Green Goblin]

with a bunch of good bastards that enjoy what they do and are always up for a beer on an overnight

Well a good bastard certainly is an improvement to barns, green grassy fields and wooly flocks of NZs finest.

Personally I prefer drinking with a good bloke than a bastard though. Then again we all know Kiwis are not very fussy :D

[Bongo Bus Driver]

To all the Air NZ SOs who don't like the job. Please leave and I will happily do it. Thanks :ok:

[distracted cockroach]

To the originator of the post.....if you are one of the "younger" S/Os, your long term prospects and total career earnings at NZ may be better than you think. With many long term F/Os now into their 50s, their actual length of time as a wide body Captain will be quite limited....indeed some have told me they are not expecting a command before they retire.
That points to "the bubble" of retirements expected within the next 10 years meaning commands earlier, and for a longer period for the current "young guys". Admittedly that may be 15 or 20 years after joining, but for some that could mean a widebody command in their mid to late 40s, as opposed to the current late 50s or not at all.
I've been continually downgrading my own career expectations....maybe a 767 command, or posssibly a 787 before I'm 60, but I had the misfortune to work for a couple of now defunct airlines, so I don't have a lot of years left.
As everyone else has advised, it's all about choices. I doubt anyone ever promised you quick promotion in Air NZ...afterall, even the early batches of S/Os did up to 10 years in that role. Be thankful you have CHC living costs, not AKL ones, but if you want to get a quick command, then go elsewhere. If it's Jetstar or PacBlue, remember that once you have the jet command, that will be it. No further advancement until you retire (unless you leave NZ) At least at Air NZ the carrot of a "big jet" is always there.
Swings and roundabouts....evaluate the options and take your pick.
I'm staying put, as a lifestyle choice. It's not about the aircraft type or even the seat I sit in...it's about where I get the best money/days off/lifestyle balance. I choose to live in NZ, and compared to other occupations , I think I do ok.
Cheers
DC

[Worldtourist]

Speaking of lifestyle...does anyone know the current payscale and conditions for the Air NZ regional airlines?
Thanks in advance for any information.

[scanman24]

Hi there,

Read the April 2012 addition of 'Pacific Wings' - an article about becoming an AirNZ pilot. There is a table outlining time-to-command with Regionals as well as a base pay figure for Link F/O's (taken from Eagle's rates I believe)

[Worldtourist]

Thanks Scanman, I will look into that. :)

[horserun]

So when will Air NZ interview again? If youre a Captain in the Link group wanting to move onto the Jets, what are the chances of getting an interview in the next 3 years?

[Dodgy Boy]

If it's anything like 20 years ago forget it, there's no chance as many of us found out!

[scanman24]

Hi there,

It depends on the status of the hold pool. When (if) the 787 arrives along with the rest of the A320's there will be a requirement for more pilots due to fleet expansion and the likely introduction of new routes. These positions will be filled by 'Yes Letter' candidates in the hold pool. If there are still vacancies, then one would assume that they interview and hire.

As for the amount of people in the hold pool, I have no idea so I can't help you there sorry.

The other thing to remember is the expansion in Mt Cook that we'll see over the next few years with up to 12 -600 ATR's arriving to be based in Auckland. Recruitment-wise what this means is that (because of Recruit-to-Group) the Regional airlines together will be hiring fairly steadily in coming years.

I was speaking with a mainline AirNZ pilot involved with recruitment and they said that in years past, it wasn't uncommon for the Link carriers to (collectively) hire 5-6 people per year. In 2012 alone they're looking at employing 80+. I guess that puts things into perspective.

So to answer your question - it depends on the amount of people in the hold pool and whether or not AirNZ exercise their options on aircraft they've ordered.

scanman24

[SkySurfin]

A couple of things to keep in mind regarding mainline recruitment.

Firstly, the arrival of the 787 and a320 is not a fleet expansion, rather it's a fleet replacement. As this is the case I wouldn't hold your breath on any extra vacancies being created during this time due to aircraft being added to the fleet (although the 2 options taken on the 787 late last year may help). There is however a large number of ageing pilots and I think it is fair to say that natural attrition due to age is finally taking place. We are already starting to see some of the over 65s who have spent a few years in the other seat move on and the majority of pilots still retire at or before 65 anyway. To give you an idea of the current situation there are around 10 777 captains retiring before the year ends and I believe this will be the norm for at least the next 5 years, if anything this rate will increase.

Secondly, Air New Zealand likes to keep around 50 people in the hold pool. I'm guessing with the latest recruitment and the one towards the end of year minus a few other who have left, the hold pool must be down to around 30-40 people. This being the case I think you can expect to see at least one or two interviews before the years out. With the reasons mentioned above I also think there will be a steady flow of interviews from this point on. I don't like to put numbers down but I'm picking about 150-200 new pilots over the next 5 years, solely due to age and medical retirement.

Hope this helps.

[qtn]

Does any on have a copy of the Pacific Wings article? My news shop has run out :(

I am also keen to move back over the ditch, what sort of schedule do Air NZ So's have? How long away, days off etc.

Thanks!

[seneca208]

The article is available online through the AirNZ aviation institute website.

http://www.aviationinstitute.co.nz/ai/assets/So-you-want-to-be-an-Air-NZ-Pilot-PACIFIC-WINGS-LAYOUT.pdf

[747-419]

Firstly, the arrival of the 787 and a320 is not a fleet expansion,

and the 60 pilots presently on the 747 who will have to fit into the system when it finally departs - if and when the 787 arrives

[see-tee-four]

Interesting thread.....there is a lot here not mentioned in the latest AirNZ hiring threads out there.

What is the latest prognosis on movement? It seems that there is a massive amount of hiring going on. I have heard people talking of 2 years to a320 fo and 5 to widebody fo. Seems a far cry from the numbers a few posts back. What has changed? A few new 777s is about it.

Maybe it is a better option to get in now than hold out for the command at one of the NZ based ozzy airlines ;)Things might be looking up for a relatively quick progressing career from how it has been in the past...or is it a temporary bubble that will soon burst, and a new hire now will still not see a window seat for quite some time.

[DeltaT]

It's a bubble. New planes spread over 4yrs, mostly replacement aircraft.
The HR people keep coming on here to make it look rosey.
Lots of hiring yes, though it seems jet is mostly internal and overseas pilots, and Instructors and low GA for Links. Call around NZ and no vacancies anywhere.

[distracted cockroach]

Just counted up, and there have been 82 new recruits to Air NZ in the last 14 months. Now I know that doesn't average out to many over the last (say) 7 or 8 years, but it is a lot in a short time. I'd say it definitely qualifies as a "bubble", but the question is how big a bubble will it be, and how long will it last?
I see it as a positive for everyone....those 82 pilots all came from another job, so it means movement for all, both in and out of the airline.
Can't see any reason for complaint at the moment....most current long term S/Os will have had the opportunity to bid for an A320 job if they want one, or if not, they soon will. Unless of course they decide to stay as S/Os....and there are commuters who have decided to do exactly that.....and wait for a long haul F/O job.
Personally, I question the wisdom of that, but then I don't live a comfortable life in Tauranga/Nelson/Hawkes Bay/Christchurch or wherever. Just saying, the music will stop sometime and there's no telling how long for!

[DeltaT]

Yes good news for all those with new jobs.
However at an approx guesstimate of 230 NZ pilots produced in the same period that is only 36% of that number.

[framer]

How can that be? There is a pilot shortage.....I read it in the Herald.

[WhyByFlier]

There is a shortage of pilots - that fit the profile and meet the standard - it quite rightly shouldn't be a case of lower the standard to fill the seat.

[haughtney1]

There is a shortage of pilots - that fit the profile and meet the standard - it quite rightly shouldn't be a case of lower the standard to fill the seat.



Edited on suspicion that the previous post was an exercise in irony....but to be honest...I'm not seeing it

[Iron Hide]

And me thinks you should learn to read better haughtney1 :ok:

Whybyflier quite clearly states it quite rightly shouldn't be a case of lower the standard to fill the seat.

[haughtney1]

Ironhide, I do reed pretti gud, but the previous post on here, could be read one of 2 ways :ok:

[mista niceguy]

It doesn't look good for anyone joining from here on in then. There are now 80 odd people above you that are possibly a similar age. When it all goes quiet it will be back to the 7-10 year s/o scenario probably, assuming a newly hired s/o won't have the chance to move before then. Surely those lining up at the door would be better off at Jetstar/JC/PB where the next 5 years or so will see some movement- yet they are still leaving. What is the attraction?:confused: Sit back at one of those other carriers, get a quick command and roll with the times.

[DeltaT]

I believe the number is somewhere around 50% that make it through the interview process, so I don't think standards per say are an issue.
You can of course talk about how it is done...:E

[sum1]

Firstly, the arrival of the 787 and a320 is not a fleet expansion, rather it's a fleet replacement. As this is the case I wouldn't hold your breath on any extra vacancies being created during this time due to aircraft being added to the fleet (although the 2 options taken on the 787 late last year may help).

`There's a lot of aggressive work going on in that space. We'll end up with 25 wide body aircraft, a mix of 777s and 787s and that's going to enable us to deepen existing markets and access new markets'

http:// http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11116177 (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=11116177)

With a current fleet of 20, I would say this equates to a gain of 5 aircraft....a 25% increase.

[Lindstrim]

On one recent link interview it was less than 50%.

[Captain Condom]

Yeah, funny isn't it. We are good enough to be Captains for Air New Zealand on 50 seat planes (remember "we are all one company") and wear the uniform and deal with the public on a daily basis, yet we are not good enough to be second officers on wide body. The arrogance of the recruitment team is breathtaking - whilst they have swallowed the company pill they conveniently forget that it is the link groups supporting their overindulgent lifestyle.

As you can guess, I didn't get in. I think I wasn't gushing enough.

[Offcut]

The simple fact is that in years gone by, the entry requirements to the Link carriers have been very different to the jet fleet. There is no automatic right of entry to the jet fleet just because you already wear the uniform. As many from outside the group are finding out however, link pilots are heavily favoured for interviews so you can hardly complain that you are discriminated against. Once you get an interview everyone is on a level playing field. It's up to you to chin the bar. If you didn't get in, fair enough, you are allowed to piss--d off. It's your career after all. However, instead of berating the whole system, maybe try to find out where you came up short, work on that and try for another shot. Everyone generally gets two attempts.

[DeltaT]

or get your 500 multi command and go to Auz to earn $100k+

@sum1, yes correct, as pointed out in other posts.
+5 more long haul...over 4yrs.
however -2 on the 737 to A320 swap out as it stands
Thats for the jet fleet.

[Captain Condom]

Thanks for your kind words and encouragement Offcut, and I do mean that sincerely.

In the last couple of years however we have been fed the message within the Link carriers that we are all one company, we are all Air New Zealanders etc. It is therefore frustrating that when one wants to progress ones career within the company, one is expected to jump through the same hoops as someone applying from outside with no track record within the company, despite my continuing demonstration of my competency as a Captain for the Air New Zealand group.

I have ten years sim and training records within the Air New Zealand group. I have personal recommendations from my Air New Zealand managers who have worked with me professionally over that period. Nevertheless, I am expected to pay for my own flights (on Air New Zealand) to Auckland for a two day interview process (on my days off). I am then put in a sim for 30 minutes. What does the recruitment panel expect to get from a 30 minute sim ride that I have not demonstrated over the past ten years at a Link Carrier? What does it say about the value that Air New Zealand mainline puts on the Link check and training departments?

I then take part in a panel interview where I am expected to demonstrate my commitment to Air New Zealand. I have stayed within the Air New Zealand group for ten years, I have not chased JetConnect, Pac Blue, Jetstar etc. As for my customer service skills, as a Captain at a Link carrier I have a far greater impact on the safety of a flight than I would as a Second Officer on a widebody. I have far more direct interaction with the public, meeting them face to face on an average four flights a day as I currently do, as they board and disembark. As an S/O I wouldn't even make a P/A, let alone help carry bags on board, chat with passengers etc.

Once within Air New Zealand mainline, I would not have to jump through the same hoops to transfer between fleets etc. Why do I have to do it to move from a turboprop to a jet? Sorry, but all I can see is that the jet fleet do not see themselves as part of the Air New Zealand group - if nothing else, if they had concerns about my ability to be an effective S/O then surely they would have even more concerns about my ability to be an effective Captain, wearing an Air New Zealand uniform on a turboprop. As part of the big picture, do they not think (do they care?) that, since my career prospects within the group are now effectivly zero I will be looking outside the group to further my career.

Sorry about the rant, but this is the only effective means of communication left to me. I received a brief phone call from HR saying I was unsuccessful, could not reapply and that no feedback would be provided. I emailed my current manager with these concerns and did not even get the courtesy of an acknowledgement of my email. I resent it a few weeks late copying in the Chief Pilot of Air New Zealand (yes, the publicity seeking one that never seems to miss an opportunity for self promotion) and still did not receive a reply. Well, given the current hiring boom, if Air New Zealand can't use my skills, I will look elsewhere. Makes their avowed motto (among others) of "attracting, developing and retaining the right people" ring a little hollow.

[waren9]

you make some good points cc.

agree with almost all except

my career prospects within the group are now effectivly zero

career progression perhaps.

air nz is not the be all and end all. good luck with what ever you want to do next.

[1Patricia1]

Hello CC,
what is the situation in your company? Is it the same company or just under contract?
Do you get the same wages, the same ID Tickets and other benefits as „THE SAME COMPANY“ mainline?
Or do you have only the same aircraft livery, uniform + motivation pattern?

From other companies and people I have seen the similar story:
They have been told for many years: “We are one company”
The same aircraft livery, uniform + motivation pattern but
different ID Tickets regulation and other benefits and much! lower salaries as „THE SAME COMPANY“ mainline!

And, when it came to the day of change, the mainline employees got an increase of salaries and the “We are one company” closes the doors and the emploees are unemployed after much more than ten years of “we are one company”.

[Offcut]

CC, fair enough. If you received no feedback then you have been poorly treated. Everyone should get a reason, and my understanding was that unless you really screwed the pooch generally applicants get another shot. One word of advice would be don't pay too much attention to the HR wonks. There is so much going on at the moment that one hand often doesn't know what the other is doing. Keep updating and emailing the right people to find out what went wrong last time. All your points about working in the links are fair ones. It was my route in as well. Despite the "we are all in this together" talk, Airnz is definitely not one airline for the staff. And this is very deliberate.

[slamer.]

CC
Suggesting Air NZ mainline is somehow propped up by the links is something of a "long bow to draw", the reality is the group has a symbiotic existence. One would not prosper without the other. And don't forget many of the link routes were gifted years ago.

I am sorry to read of your experience with the recruitment process. By reading your posts, perhaps your tone of entitlement came through in the interview.

I'm not privy to that process. But I do know it takes a cluster in a few areas to get a "don't come back ever".... It could be argued your result in fact vindicates the current process, because on the surface it sounds like you should have romped in.

[DeltaT]

Well well well, more and more people are coming forward about the way Air NZ recruits and even from within the ranks. That was very well written CC. I do hope the right people within Air NZ start to take notice and stop being 'yes men'.

[blah blah blah]

My understanding from an interviewer is that they work very hard to get some of the guys through. Bearing in mind the numbers of pilots needed over the next couple of years, to not have the bulk of an interview round be accepted is a huge issue for the company. They are actively trying to help guys pass. I haven't personally heard of anyone fail for anything other than very necessary reasons. It must be gutting to miss out on something you have worked a long time towards, but I don't see anyone to blame except yourself. The process is very fair, it's run by pilots, and there is a huge demand. For those about to interview make sure you do plenty of work. It's not a given to pass, you aren't entitled to the job.

[Hugh Jarse]

Capt. Condom, Air NZ is only 15 years behind QF (for example) with its draconian recruiting practices.

You have to understand that when you work for a subsidiary company the cards are stacked against you from the outset, compared to someone off the street when it comes to career progression. Primarily (especially if you're a captain in a subsidiary) it's the "double training" that gets you - the subsidiary has to train a replacement captain to fill your spot, and a replacement needs to be employed for the FO that got the upgrade. All those nasty training costs come off the bottom line of the group entity.

Therefore, it's more cost effective for the parent company to hire someone off the street than it is to do so from within the group.

As for success rate at interview - when I finished up doing it in 2008 for the QF group, it was about a 15% pass rate (in spite of one's best efforts to get the candidate through). The standard was not reduced to allow for lack of experience/poor training (key factor) or other factors.

Your best bet is to take your expertise outside of the AirNZ group in my opinion.

[haughtney1]

CC, reading between the lines of your post, and assuming you did ok in the sim, then I'd suggest you said or did something that upset the Human Remains (HR) oxygen thieves.
These leaches have over the years got their toxic influence up to such a level that they often have the ultimate say so over if get employed or not.
It will mostly have nothing to do with you being able to do the job...more likely they have assessed that due to you not being able to weave a basket or perhaps convey a time when etc etc...you are in fact a closet axe murderer, or display latent pedophile tendencies, and are thus more suited to a role in HR, or revenue management :hmm::hmm::ugh:

[blah blah blah]

Lets not let the facts get in the way of some good old fashioned pilot bitching!

You have to understand that when you work for a subsidiary company the cards are stacked against you from the outset, compared to someone off the street when it comes to career progression. Primarily (especially if you're a captain in a subsidiary) it's the "double training" that gets you - the subsidiary has to train a replacement captain to fill your spot, and a replacement needs to be employed for the FO that got the upgrade. All those nasty training costs come off the bottom line of the group entity.

Actually its quite the opposite. Air NZ has pretty much been through the Link Captains and instructors, now they are moving onto the more junior guys. What is happening though is that they are upgrading FOs, giving them around 3 months in a command and then offering them an interview. They are going out of their way to try and make the process orderly and to give preference to Link pilots. Because of the shear numbers required outside candidates will be required, and of course there will always be the guys from the Air Force. To say that the cards are stacked against you as a pilot for a subsidiary is about as wrong as you can get.

CC, reading between the lines of your post, and assuming you did ok in the sim, then I'd suggest you said or did something that upset the Human Remains (HR) oxygen thieves.
These leaches have over the years got their toxic influence up to such a level that they often have the ultimate say so over if get employed or not.
It will mostly have nothing to do with you being able to do the job...more likely they have assessed that due to you not being able to weave a basket or perhaps convey a time when etc etc...you are in fact a closet axe murderer, or display latent pedophile tendencies, and are thus more suited to a role in HR, or revenue management

I know that people love to beat up on HR, and Im not always convinced by them, but people have to wake up to the realities of the process. HR do the initial weeding out of people in order to get guys to an interview. Things like have you got the prerequisite number of hours and licences etc, requirements laid down by pilots! The interview process basically revolves around two key aspects, the sim and the interview. Don't stuff up the other parts but realistically it comes down to the sim and the interview. The sim will see you in there with two pilots. The interview is the same, though there may be an HR type in there as well. A lot of guys I know that have been through recently didn't have the HR person there, and the ones that did didn't cop many questions from them.

Pilots are running the show, and the ones that I know that are interviewers etc are top blokes. Again I feel terrible for the guys that miss out, it must be gutting. The reality is though that to miss out at the moment means you did something pretty obviously wrong. Take the sim for example. CC talks about 10 years of good checks etc which is of course fantastic. Now I don't know how he/she did of course, but lets assume that it was the sim. 10 years of great sims followed by one bad sim, unfair? Perhaps, or perhaps there is an expectation that with that sort of background there shouldn't be a grossly bad sim like some of the ones Ive heard about. Interviewers get a short period of time with someone. They aren't expecting perfection in the sim, but they also don't expect you to crash or get lost.

All Im saying with all of this is to be prepared. The interview process isn''t a formality. The company is looking at hiring someone and having them on the books for the next 30 or more years. They need to make good decisions. So do prospective pilots. Do lots of prep, know your stuff backwards and you'll be fine. Walk in with a sense of entitlement and you probably wont find yourself flying for Air NZ jet.

[astinapilot]

Hi all

Reading this thread with great interest, would like to move home. Would someone mind PM'ing me details of the S/O position. What sort of lifestyle do you get, is it commutable (I would live in WLG) and if so how much time do you get at home. I understand you get away allowances but also some taxable ones? Typically what would these add up to /mth?

With the progression going on could you confirm most A320 F/O positions would be Auckland based? How long approx would you wait for a WLG or CHC base?

Would you recommend making the shift? I am currently 37 so getting on a bit. Not too worried about a command, lifestyle, security and getting my salary from the S/O level to a f/O level are the priorities.
Would you come across at my age?

Many thanks in advance.

[DeltaT]

Walk in with a sense of entitlement and you probably wont find yourself flying for Air NZ jet.

How do you distinguish between the 'sense of entitlement' which loses the candidate the job, and the candidate being confident?

guys I know that have been through recently didn't have the HR person there
My understanding from an interviewer is that they work very hard to get some of the guys through.

Clearly some get a better and easier interview than others?

Pilots are running the show
Given that it is normal airline protocol to operate a sterile cockpit while doing an instrument approach, please explain the concept behind asking IFR questions while doing an arc/approach in the sim ride?

[Offcut]

Delta T, I think what he is saying is that if someone is a bit nervous or whatever, they try to help him/her out. The interview panel truly are trying to get the best out of the candidates. It's not about preferential treatment, just about putting people at ease.

Your question about sterile cockpit is precisely the point. They ask you questions to see how long you will let them distract you before politely asking them to be quiet as you are rather busy just now. You can bang on about the process all you like but it works pretty well. Sometimes quality people have a bad day and don't get through. But that's what an interview is about. You can fly the line safely for six months but if you fail a sim ride, guess what? It's all about turning it on and performing when called to. The simple fact is, the pass rate is high. They interview to a standard, not to a number. They could pass all on a round, or none. You are not in competition with one another. On our group we all spent a lot of time together prepping and reviewing and generally helping each other out. And we all got through.

Astina pilot,
In the GA and questions forum is a thread that answers most of your questions. If you search posts by me you should find it.

[Hugh Jarse]

Actually its quite the opposite. Air NZ has pretty much been through the Link Captains and instructors, now they are moving onto the more junior guys. What is happening though is that they are upgrading FOs, giving them around 3 months in a command and then offering them an interview. They are going out of their way to try and make the process orderly and to give preference to Link pilots. Because of the shear numbers required outside candidates will be required, and of course there will always be the guys from the Air Force. To say that the cards are stacked against you as a pilot for a subsidiary is about as wrong as you can get.
Thanks for the clarification, blah blah blah. Based on your statement, it appears the company is doing the right thing in terms of career progression.

My statement was based upon almost 15 years experience with the QF system, which all but excludes subsidiary pilots (apart from a tiny trickle) from moving through the group.

It seems AirNZ recognises the talent within its subsidiaries, and that's a good thing :)

[DeltaT]

They ask you questions to see how long you will let them distract you before politely asking them to be quiet as you are rather busy just now.

ahh, wow, ok, thanks, 'penny drop'. :)
In the sim when told I will be asked questions and to answer them to my best ability, I am supposed to tell him to :mad: off when I am busy, but when in the interview I say how I follow company SOP complicity. :ugh:

[Offcut]

I tell you what, you just go ahead and tell them anything you like.

[blah blah blah]

Some guys seem to work pretty hard at trying to NOT pass an interview.

There is some excellent advice on these forums. If you want to join Air NZ then follow the advice, it's pretty simple to do. If you want to bitch and moan about the selection process before you are in the company then be sure to continue to do that if you manage to get an interview. That will go down very well.

[kev2002]

Seems to me, based on reading this thread, that Air NZ is doing a very good job at keeping the idiots out.

From what I heard and subsequently witnessed, the process is very fair and not there to trick anyone out of a job. If you failed, get over it and move on.

[donkey123]

You beat me to it kev2002. I probably wouldn't have gone as far as using the word 'idiot' however.

It is funny how you can read some comments on an anonymous forum that give you a feeling about someones personality traits. If certain traits come through on here I'm sure as s#it that they shine through when face to face.

Just sayin.

[waren9]

went through the process a while back, no tricks, traps or other bs.

i got a couple of questions wrong in one of the exams, the examiner quietly came up to me and asked if i wanted to rethink a couple of answers before he marked it

cant get more helpful than that.

[myekppa]

Reading comments on the thread about 'arrogance of recruitment' and 'all being one company', well therein lies the problem.

No one is entitled to anything and every employer will have a corporate line that should not be taken too literally. As we mature into adults and grow up we become street smart. We stop making assumptions, see through the propaganda and start taking ownership for our own actions rather than blaming company policy.

Anyone joining a Link carrier, knows there is no yellow brick road to mainline so therefore no entitlement. There is no excuse for disappointment or bitterness. The recruitment processes are different, you may pass one and not the other. It's always been like that. Being aware of those two simple facts is called taking ownership for your own decisions.

It's not a case of whether they should or shouldn't be different or more integrated, it's their train set and they make the rules.

If ANZ want to hire someone with no record from outside NZ that meets the criteria and place trust in their recruitment process, that's their choice. Bitching about it won't change a thing apart from demonstrating that perhaps their recruitment process has worked again.

This thread started on the back of progression prospects. I did join ANZ from an overseas airline, I saw what the prospects were going to be, I took accountability for my own decisions and made another one without bitterness or regret.

[DeltaT]

Yes my trait of doing what I am told to do and ergo staying to the rules :uhoh:
Now we all know that is not the case of what is being looked for, and the matter is cleared up.

haha, if you don't have an answer just say so. :}

[c100driver]

The jet fleet is a different contract, to the link operations.

NZALPA and the FANZP both have a strict seniority system in the individual airlines, Eagle, Air Nelson, Mt Cook and the jet operation. The jet fleet is the only one that has multiple types.

In the jet fleets you start as a B777, B767 or shortly a B787 SO, there are also a small number positions as B733 FO but this aircraft is being retired and exited by 2015. The SO and B733 are the entry positions and there are NO exceptions.

[Water Wings]

NZALPA and the FANZP both have a strict seniority system in the individual airlines, Eagle, Air Nelson, Mt Cook and the jet operation. The jet fleet is the only one that has multiple types.Except of course for the Federation giving up the clause that limited the number of management pilots that can be appointed to a position outside of seniority. Slightly off tangent perhaps ;)

[Inverted Flat Spin]

Waterwings keep in mind under the fed contract those management pilots do not contribute to the headcount requirement. So they aren't stealing a line pilots spot. But yes beside the point.

[kiwilad]

Inverted, are they shadow rostered or just don't fly the line? Are they paid as a Captain but not paid any margin for managing, seems like thin edge of wedge.

[BNEA320]

think they're going to Vincent in DRW on some sort of JV with NZ, but not sure where they will be based.

[Biggles78]

Yes, I know this last post was 5 years ago but it is a slow night and Alan Zymer will not go away.

Many, many, many years ago, there was a couple of applicants applying to ANZ. App 1 had a shiny new Commercial, IR and 300 hour on a 172. App 2 had 3,000+ SIngle Pilot time on the Mt Cook PA31 (said it was many years ago). App 1 was welcomed with open arms. App 2 was told "Laddie, you need to go and get a few more hours and then try again". Ok, it wasn't the actual quote but that was the gist of what he was told.

[AerocatS2A]

If you miss out an an airline job there are about three things you can do.

1. Blame the recruiting system and wait for the system to change. This may never happen.
2. Blame the recruiting system and try and get a job with a company that has a "better" system. You may find that all of the good companies have similarly broken recruiting systems.
3. Consider that, hey, maybe the recruiting system actually found genuine fault with you, the candidate, and maybe you could work on changing a few things about yourself.

If you continually blame external factors for **** that happens to you then nothing will ever change.

[mattyj]

Some people..myself included..don’t do well in interviews..clammy hands..nervous sweat..stammering..forgetting all the things you’ve studied and stuff you do know sounds unconvincing when you say it to the panel..probably perfectly good pilots and perfectly nice guys and girls but nice guys don’t always get the girl

[AerocatS2A]

Yep, fully understand that, but note you acknowledge that you don't do well in interviews. You're not trying to blame the process.

[ElZilcho]

This 5 year old thread is a great reminder of how quickly things can change.

Hi All.

I am an Air NZ second officer and have been for the past 5 years on the 747/777. I live in Christchurch, and am at this stage looking at another 5 years untill an airbus A320 FO job out of CHC. That's correct, an A320 FO job. (that is 10 years as an S/O) this is best guess work, and could well be longer.

Please note that this is going to be standard at Air NZ from now on. At the moment an A320 Captain slot at Air NZ is about 20 years from joining. I Repeat , 20 YEARS for an A320 Command!!

Please correct me if I am wrong. If I went to Jetstar now, how long would it take to command??? 3 years maybe?? compared to 20???? this is realistic. I am aware there is a well deserved pay rise on the horizon at Jetstar, which I am sure will overtake Air NZ base pay in the short term(wont take much).

What I am pointing out here, is that if you are looking at Air NZ for a long time career, think again, there are far superior options, you do the figures, don't be fooled, Air NZ maybe a fools game.

Officially Air NZ is now the slowest progressing Airline in the world, it has overtaken Air Canada, depressing I know, but correct.

This post is purely for information only.

All the Best Comrads
Bushwackernz

In recent years, newly hired A320 FO's have started in Christchurch.
A320 Commands are sitting about 5 years at the moment and there's talk of them getting as low as 3.

If you can't roll with the waves, then a legacy Airline probably isn't for you. Best pack your bags and head overseas where you jump from one Airline to the next as a DEC. Doesn't matter if it's Jetstar, Virgin, JetConnect or Air NZ, when Commands come up in as little as 3 years there's a very good reason for it, nobody ahead of you wants them....

[mattyj]

I think they’ve had to send a few people sideways because of the 787 fiasco...if they can get those things back on schedule they might ramp up again.

[snakeslugger]

And with command times, I have heard through the grape vine that Virgin NZ commands are officially open to the entire Virgin Tiger Group. All the latest commands have all gone to Australians that have been with the company for over ten years. No wonder there’s so many Virgin pilots (including captains) looking to jump ship to Uncle Koru. I have heard that some of the latest rounds of NZ interviews have been made up of almost entirely Virgin pilots!

Command times of LESS than five years with Air New Zealand, JetConnect, Jetstar etc... but Virgin is in excess of TEN years. Virgin remains to be one of the least attractive airlines to work for NZ...

Not entirely correct... only 2 commands were awarded to current Australian based FO’s, the rest were awarded to NZ based FO’s.
Yes, command time in NZ has extended out due to group seniority but that’s what an integrated seniority number does. Not sure why a VA Captain would be leaving as they would be taking a pay cut, not the smartest move in my thinking.

[aerostatic]

Horses for courses. If you take the long term view and can afford to take the short term pain of a pay cut it may be worth a crack and provide you with a more varied and rewarding career path.



Not entirely correct... only 2 commands were awarded to current Australian based FO’s, the rest were awarded to NZ based FO’s.
Yes, command time in NZ has extended out due to group seniority but that’s what an integrated seniority number does. Not sure why a VA Captain would be leaving as they would be taking a pay cut, not the smartest move in my thinking.

[ka_pai]

So how many VANZ pilots are waiting for a start at Air NZ? Or are there a few pondering the move? I would suggest doing it sooner than later if that’s what they are thinking.
The difference working for AirNZ vs VANZ is night and day, from first hand experience. (Except for all the really good buggers at VANZ). If you are an F/O it’s a no brainer. Even as a captain it’s worth serious consideration if your bank account/ego can take a hit for a few years.
The A320 training dept are talking about commands going as low as 2-3 years. Currently at 5. There is 50-70 commands next year that manpower are planning....

[ka_pai]

:eek: Damn. All f/o’s?

[MonsterC01]

That’s 17 resignations across the group, not just in NZ. Most of those 17 are SO’s off the 777 heading over to the red rat.

[Gate_15L]

So how many VANZ pilots are waiting for a start at Air NZ? Or are there a few pondering the move? I would suggest doing it sooner than later if that’s what they are thinking.
The difference working for AirNZ vs VANZ is night and day, from first hand experience. (Except for all the really good buggers at VANZ). If you are an F/O it’s a no brainer. Even as a captain it’s worth serious consideration if your bank account/ego can take a hit for a few years.
The A320 training dept are talking about commands going as low as 2-3 years. Currently at 5. There is 50-70 commands next year that manpower are planning....

yeah my bank balance couldn’t handle that..:{

VANZ for a NZer is going to eventually end up in either a contract overseas or a position in Oz if you want a change in scenery. If your a NZer FO in VANZ and want to stay in NZ, its a no brainer.

I suspect the 3% attrition projection is optimistic low at VANZ....

[Kittykat2704]

Has anyone heard anything regarding manpower requirements 2019, and to as to whether Jet opportunities are to open up again anytime soon?

[ElZilcho]

Has anyone heard anything regarding manpower requirements 2019, and to as to whether Jet opportunities are to open up again anytime soon?


Hard to say. With the ongoing 787 issues the company has been hesitant to issue revised course planners as things are always changing. Probably read in the media recently we've had to drop a few destinations, even with sourcing more 777 leases. I'm certain there will be more intakes next year, but how many is anyone's guess... as is how many will actually be "new" hires Vs Regional Pilots already on the list awaiting a course.

[Kittykat2704]

Yeah right thought as much. What about the number of guys who recently interviewed and have been told courses in Feb potentially? Guess that will be centred around the 78 issues also?

[ElZilcho]

Well I believe the company is planning based on 4 grounded 787's, so if guys were recently told Feb then I expect it would of taken that into account and should be accurate... unless we ground a 5th. Longer term however... who knows.