British PM flies the (Angolan) flag!

[ShotOne]

The UK government has demonstrated its "support" for its own national airline industry by pitching up in Tokyo to meet the Japanese head of state in a Boeing 747 belonging to Angolan Airline SonAir. As expressions of contempt, one couldn't be much clearer. With support like that....

[Lord Bracken]

Presumably you know for a fact that BA and VS had aircraft available yet No.10 didn't call them up out of contempt?

[Heathrow Harry]

If I was PM I'd ditch BA ASAP - just "flying the flag" is a cretinous excuse to support one airline whatever they are like, or how they perform

[cargo boy]

It was an N registered Atlas B744 in SonAir colors. Still, shows the contempt that the UK government have for the airline industry here in the UK.

There is no such thing as BA or VS not having an a/c available. These trips are planned long in advance and if necessary, the airlines will make arrangements to make sure that they have an a/c available for prestigious contracts such as these.

[overstress]

If I was PM I'd ditch BA ASAP - just "flying the flag" is a cretinous excuse to support one airline whatever they are like, or how they perform

err.. I think he already did, which is the point of the thread :ooh:

Has anyone come up with a coherent explanation as to why uk.gov hates the airline industry? I'd love to know why they have such a downer on us.

[crewmeal]

Are the pilots and cabin crew Angolan?

[pwalhx]

A Tory source said: ‘We always approach British carriers first, but because we were travelling during a busy holiday season, they were unable to provide an aircraft for a five-day trip.’

[Lord Bracken]

Well less than a month ago Cameron flew to and from the US in a BA 777, so one hardly thinks there's been some massive policy change in the intervening 3 weeks...

http://hotnewshome.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/03/cameron-obama-arri_2167106k.jpg

[EGBE0523]

Didn't Aunt Beth's Flying Club have a VC10 or Tristar free for a few days?

[cym]

Pathetic excuse from Cam&Co - what kind of message does this give out on a visit promoting trade with the UK ..... and the PM cant be bothered to use a G reg frame? None available - bull me thinks. More a case of knowing the cost of everything and the value of nothing

[davidjohnson6]

I can see good reason to have a plane from a UK based organisation flying Cameron and co to Asia for the publicity, be that BA, Virgin, bmi or the RAF

If that can't be achieved, why does it specifically need to be a G registered aircraft ?
News and media organisations are most unlikely to pick up on the country of registrationl - the only people who do are those with a specific knowledge of aviation.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Has anyone come up with a coherent explanation as to why uk.gov hates the airline industry? I'd love to know why they have such a downer on us."

Overstress, would also dearly love to know the answer to this, it isn't just Calamity Clegg and his mates!

[rn750]

In BA replace 'British' with 'London' and it sums up the whole country really..

Adie (in the regions)

[Flightmech]

If it was Sonair then it's an AtlasAir aircraft operated by an Atlas flight crew. Unsure about nationality of cabin crew. The two Atlas/Sonair 744's are used to operate the "Houston Express" between Houston & Luanda primarily for the oil industry. I think it is a private charter operation. Atlas took the contract over from World's MD-11's a while back

[ConstantFlyer]

The UK government has demonstrated its "support" for its own national airline industry by pitching up in Tokyo to meet the Japanese head of state in a Boeing 747 belonging to Angolan Airline SonAir. As expressions of contempt, one couldn't be much clearer. With support like that....

This sounds like a Daily Mail wind-up. It sends a far more important message to Britain's potential business partners abroad that the government here is cost-conscious, internationally-focussed and supportive of business.

Most foreign press coverage will focus on the fact that he pitched up with a plane-load of British business leaders, keen to do business and trade with the countries being visited. Only the moaning minnies of the British so-called newspapers will focus on such irrelevant minutiae as this.

[golfyankeesierra]

Perhaps BA is overcharging a bit, thinking your government was only bluffing to go for an overseas carrier...

[WHBM]

The EU has banned all Angolan carriers from its airspace with the exception of a couple of aircraft from the national carrier TAAG which presumably get some special inspections and management while visiting mainstream countries.

Cameron's wonderful advisers have contracted this 747 from a secondary Angolan carrier, Sonangol, who to circumvent the ban on their country have got a US charter carrier to provide a registration for this aircraft. Isn't it great that our PM is supporting some grey market dodge.

I presume that, with the normal level of knowledge about aviation in the Prime Minister's office, they have no clue about nationality of airlines, EU bans, how to spell British Airways, or anything else. And our wonderful know-nothing Secretary of State for Transport can't advise them. They probably asked initially for the 747 to depart from London City.

I wonder how an Angolan company ever got offered such a charter in the first place. Of course, they are from a country where there is only one sure-fire way of doing business .........

[Davidsoffice]

Did this Atlas/Angolan aircraft fly out of the UK or did they fly a European leg first to avoid a huge Departure Tax?

[EGBE0523]

I wonder how an Angolan company ever got offered such a charter in the first place. Of course, they are from a country where there is only one sure-fire way of doing business

If this was an episode of "Yes Minister" then sombody in Whitehall would be a member of the same gentleman's club as someone who played golf with another mason who worked for an Air Charter Broker who just happed to have a 747-400 kicking its heels for a few days. But of course "Yes Minister" was fictional.

[Denti]

Why doesn't have the UK military their own government tranportation service like other european countries? That way they would have additional security and safety measures as well as a way to always show their flag while being abroad.

[davidjohnson6]

Denti - because the press got themselves so excite when Tony Blair wanted his own jet and they labelled it Blair Force One, and now nobody in Govt dares raise the subject again, particularly with all this recession "we're all in it together" malarkey

[WHBM]

....now nobody in Govt dares raise the subject again, particularly with all this recession "we're all in it together" malarkey
Well if the government will suck ever-increasing amounts out of us in tax (eg APD) and then spend it overseas with Angolan airlines instead of supporting their taxpayer base, NO WONDER we're in a recession.

[ShotOne]

Some odd replies; why is it "cretinous" for a mission to promote trade with a particular country to use the services of that nation? Does Obama fly Ryanair then drive his guests in a Hyundai to eat New Zealand beef?

[Denti]

@davidjohnson6, thanks for the explanation. Over here the press will of course clamp down on some unjustified use, for example using an A310 to bring a minister back out of his vacation for half a day and then back to his vacation, or a green MP touring south america who flew there and back with the airlines, but needed the service of a government challenger while being there which meant two pretty long empty flights there and back.

But even when they modernized the fleet (2 A340, 2 A319, 4 Global 5000 and 3 Eurocopter AS352) there was only some minor rumble in the papers, nothing big. But the old fleed of A310s and Challengers was breaking down so often by then it was more of pity that they waited so long.

[lomapaseo]

Getting his own personal jet with a proper flag would solve the problem of nationality.

Else if the problem is a frugal one, then sort it out with the lowest bidder, after all what have you got to lose ?

[Barling Magna]

Cameron and the posh boys aren't just anti the British airline industry, they are anti aviation in general. Just look at what they've done to the RAF and to our aircraft carriers - but at least we can borrow a French one if we ask nicely. Thank goodness the runway extension at Southend was approved by Denham just before the general election; I don't think the coalition would have let that through - noisy, greenhouse gas emitting aeroplanes flying over Tory voters in Westcliff....

Surely Cameron is slowly learning that aviation is one of Britain's few success stories. Surely he'll at least freeze APD in future. Surely he'll fly British aircraft in future. Surely he'll approve a third runway at LHR. Surely he'll start making some sensible decisions that aren't just designed to support wealth and privilege. Surely he will......

[NutLoose]

Well, we can in theory borrow a Carrier as long as the French Premier is still in power, I wouldn't rate that plan lasting if and when Sarkozy gets ousted..

Surely Ryan Air could have come up with something more befitting the supposed austerity measures we are supposed to be going through.. :E

[Skipness One Echo]

Cameron's wonderful advisers have contracted this 747 from a secondary Angolan carrier, Sonangol, who to circumvent the ban on their country have got a US charter carrier to provide a registration for this aircraft. Isn't it great that our PM is supporting some grey market dodge.

It's American, Atlas Air. This is peculiarly British seeing the price of everything and the value of nought! Would the US, French, or Germans envisage pitching up in an Angolan coloured charter? Of course not, anyhoo all the more money to **** up the wall on looking after Islamists that want us dead and benefits for the people we lost interest in when we found Poland's young were better looking and worked harder. Rule Britannia...

[AileronsNeutral]

It wouldn't be the first time that British Airways in particular has turned down a charter for a Prime Minister.

[VIKING9]

Makes you wonder what BA really think of Cameron and his bent and twisted cronnies at Number 10/11, Posh Street, W1

[View From The Ground]

David Cameron uses oil firm's plane | Politics | The Guardian (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2012/apr/10/david-cameron-sonangol-oil-plane?newsfeed=true)

As you will see they tried British Airlines first. If we acted like a proper country not one driven by a media agenda then the Government would at least have a decent size corporate jet for official business.

[lauriebe]

The aircraft being used is N322SG.

FlightAware > Photo of Boeing 747-400 (N322SG) (http://flightaware.com/photos/view/603552-82231f48fc5db78bfd49c16e1c76cb0220f935e8/aircrafttype/B744)

[Flightmech]

As stated earlier, one of 2 owned and operated by Atlas on behalf of Sonair for the IAH-LAD route.

[Flightmech]

Time for "Cameron Force One". There must be an old viscount/748 banging about somewhere:E

[brian_dromey]

I know the Mail would have a field day, but I honestly think an A319/20 or even an A330/343 would be appropriate. Have it flown by the RAF, with the air bridge out to the Falklands, etc a fleet of A330s could probably be justified, there should be commonality with the A330MRRT's, if they ever arrive. Indeed having a fleet of these aircraft keeps jobs in the UK, in the RAF, etc. I can't think of a more appropriate way to arrive in a country than on a G reg RAF aircraft, if it's slate grey, all the better, much of which was built in the UK.

[Fairdealfrank]

Quote: "Cameron and the posh boys aren't just anti the British airline industry, they are anti aviation in general. Just look at what they've done to the RAF and to our aircraft carriers - but at least we can borrow a French one if we ask nicely. Thank goodness the runway extension at Southend was approved by Denham just before the general election; I don't think the coalition would have let that through - noisy, greenhouse gas emitting aeroplanes flying over Tory voters in Westcliff....

Surely Cameron is slowly learning that aviation is one of Britain's few success stories. Surely he'll at least freeze APD in future. Surely he'll fly British aircraft in future. Surely he'll approve a third runway at LHR. Surely he'll start making some sensible decisions that aren't just designed to support wealth and privilege. Surely he will......!"

.....and surely pigs will fly! Look out of the window right now, there's a whole flock of them going past.

[Derwent Dale]

Yup - there they go !

[Skipness One Echo]

Gift 32SQ a couple of A319s or a BBJ for goodness sake. It's hardly a Royal Yacht and HMG can use it for occasions like this.

[ConstantFlyer]

Most countries with Government aircraft use them for a multitude of other purposes too. But most also have an Air Force with sufficient personnel to manage their use.

[MUFC_fan]

The problem here is that the UK as a sovereignty is a global player politically for obvious reasons.

Unlike the US we don't have the economy to back that political power up. Yes the PM and senior cabinet ministers need to make many many trips abroad every year to keep Britain in the loop as a key political force but justifying purchasing and maintaining aircraft for the job may not be economically viable - I'm just guessing!

However, I do like the commonality idea with the A330 etc...:E

[WHBM]

The only justification I can possibly think of is that 10 Downing Street enquired about the charter of BA, but also let them know that the PM, while over there, was going to make a speech re-emphasising that notwithstanding all the recent statements about the multiple impacts on the UK economy the lack of capacity that Heathrow has, he was going to restate no third runway - taking advantage of being 6,000 miles away.

Furthermore he was going to go to Indonesia and the Airbus order signing, and announce that he was going to support Garuda getting slots to operate into London, but was going to say nothing about BA maybe starting to serve Indonesia in return.

And BA then told them to get stuffed .......

[HEMS driver]

British PM touches down in Japan - Video Dailymotion (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xq0sjc_british-pm-touches-down-in-japan_news)

[Heathrow Harry]

WHBM - do BA WANT to serve Indonesia?

they used to years ago but pulled out

these days they pretty much only serve Sydney & Melbourne in that neck of the woods

they'd rather add flights to JFK

[Charley B]

BA have just announced that will- fly Heathrow to Seoul using 777 from December 2012-bookable now.

[Ernest Lanc's]

Denti - because the press got themselves so excite when Tony Blair wanted his own jet and they labelled it Blair Force One, and now nobody in Govt dares raise the subject again, particularly with all this recession "we're all in it together" malarkey


Denti is right...It's not a matter of Cameron or whoever wanting their own jet..It would stop threads like this if the UK PM was transported like the US president.

Who cares what the press writes, I am sure politicians have thick enough skins to ride that.

As for the cost - How much does it cost for the PM and his entourage to hire a plane for a week, several times in his term.

Naming the plane would be more difficult, as the Queen is head of state.

I am sure a suitable name could be found..

[atpcliff]

I believe the two Sonair planes are owned by Sonair.

They are operated by Atlas Air, with both cockpit and cabin crew made up of Atlas personnel. Atlas is based in New York.

They fly freight (dedicated freighters) and passengers (dedicated passenger planes). They operate 747-400s, LCFs, 767-300ERs, 767-200Fs and, this month, are scheduled to take delivery of their first 747-8F.

They fly for DHL, Panalpina, Emirates, Qantas, Etihad, the US Military, themselves, and various other customers. They will start hiring pilots (cabin crew are being hired currently) again this year...you need to be a US citizen or have a green card to get hired.

They also own 49% of GSS, and they own the GSS airframes, and they lease airframes to other customers.

cliff
HKG

[Skipness One Echo]

It would stop threads like this if the UK PM was transported like the US president.
A couple of A320s / A319s is all that's needed. This is what works for many democracies across the world, a B747 is too much really.

[Ernest Lanc's]

A couple of A320s / A319s is all that's needed. This is what works for many democracies across the world, a B747 is too much really.

Well I reckon with an A320, a lot of configuring would have to be done...I have flown these aircraft with both Monarch and Easy, and they are the most uncomfortable planes ever.

To small for this job IMO..If you think a 747 is over egging the pudding - maybe a home grown A330 may fit the bill.

Whatever a/c is used - The UK PM needs an identifiable plane, rather than whatever charter he can catch.

[Skipness One Echo]

Well I reckon with an A320, a lot of configuring would have to be done...I have flown these aircraft with both Monarch and Easy, and they are the most uncomfortable planes ever.

I meant a VIP configured aircraft with an office and suite for the PM and the Queen as required. Ideally flown by the RAF who already are bringing the A330 into service.
Something between the madness of Algeria's A340-500 and the cringe worthiness of Atlas Air, a well known cargo outfit, flying our leader around the world.

[Heathrow Harry]

"OUR LEADER"???????????

last I heard he was MP for Witney who just happens to "be able to command a majority in the House of Commons"

The days when the ignorant were impressed by Big White Chief arriving in a BIG aeroplane have longgggg gone

[WHBM]

Well I reckon with an A320, a lot of configuring would have to be done...I have flown these aircraft with both Monarch and Easy, and they are the most uncomfortable planes ever.
I think there will be a number here wondering how you came to this conclusion about this airframe type.

It's a bit like saying a Citroen (say) is an unsafe car because you mother-in-law has one and drove it into the garage doors ......

[Ernest Lanc's]

I think there will be a number here wondering how you came to this conclusion about this airframe type.

It's a bit like saying a Citroen (say) is an unsafe car because you mother-in-law has one and drove it into the garage doors ......


No: The analogy does not hold good...What I meant was the A320 is to small for transporting a world leader and his entourage, gaggle of press et al.

The fast that I find them uncomfortable is purely coincidental..But they are.
I meant a VIP configured aircraft with an office and suite for the PM and the Queen as required. Ideally flown by the RAF who already are bringing the A330 into service.

I agreeL If we are going to have a private jet for our leader(s) - It has to be a 747 or an rather and A330, flown by the RAF.

Heathrow Harry.
Like Cameron or maybe Boris in the future, or not! we can't have a UK leader turning ip at JFk or wherever in an old 757.

[crewmeal]

OK so he won't have his own jet to fly with, so whose frame will 'he' use on his next long haul flight? Any suggestions?

[JSCL]

My suggestion is one of the several A345 in corporate configs out there. But alas, I'm not certain the electorate would be too happy about such a purchase, as nice as it might be.

[Skipness One Echo]

It has to be a 747 or an rather and A330

I think the Germans use the A310, the French the A319 / A320 as do the Italians. A 500 seater seems rather grand for the world we live in.
The Japanses have two B747s a bit like the US. Even New Zealand have the B757 and they don't even have fighters any more.

An immaculate RAF A320 would be the right signal for Britain as much of it is British made and we're not showing like some tinpot with their own fleet of A340s and B744s.

[Ernest Lanc's]

An immaculate RAF A320 would be the right signal for Britain as much of it is British made and we're not showing like some tinpot with their own fleet of A340s and B744s.


That's a fair argument..My preference would be one up..Whatever the aircraft it IMO has to be a RAF plane..

I think we all agree that out PM deserves better than a chartered Angolan aircraft..

BTW - The A320 is fine for up to. and flying over the pond, but what about further afield?.

I mean would it be BA or Virgin, or an aircraft chartered from?????

[crewmeal]

So tell me something. Who pays for the media and all the entourage to travel with the PM on these longhaul flights? Is it really necessary to have a widebody to transport him around? Whats wrong with a 'G' registered Gulfstream V? Perhaps it's to show him off walking down all those steps at the destination.

If airmiles andy can freeload at the taxpayers expense in a CRJ around India, then surely our PM can use a smaller aircraft in these austere times.

[Ernest Lanc's]

So tell me something. Who pays for the media and all the entourage to travel with the PM on these longhaul flights?
Does it matter?..the aircraft are chartered, not scheduled.