Norwegian starts charging F/Os 200k nok for linetraining

[aozc]

:confused:

NORWEGIAN - - Må betale for å jobbe NA24 (http://www.na24.no/article3373141.ece)

- Dette er et tilbud vi ikke hadde tidligere. Da tok vi ikke inn piloter som ikke hadde type rating på Boeing 737. Nå inviterer vi inn piloter som ikke har denne ratingen. Vi gir dem kontrakt så de kan trene hos oss mot en kostnadsreduksjon som i praksis innebærer mindre lønn, sier Larsson til Nordlys.

Meaning something like:

- This is an offer we did not have earlier. Back then we did not take on pilots that had not a type rating on the 737. Now we invite non rated pilots. We give them a contract so that they can do their training with us under a "cost reduction" :confused: wich in practice means less pay.

Soon other operators will have to follow the trend in order to stay competitive.

[J31/32]

still they like to keep the age limit at age 40.....????

[Moneyjunkie]

You guys MUST prevent this.:ugh::ugh:

The Dy capt´s must simply refuse to fly with these guys unless they are hired under normal Terms and conditions. It cannot turn into a new buisness for Norwegian to simply sell ratings and line training like RYR... Crist!!!

You may not let this happend, it is the beginning to the end. please please please show some balls on this issue...

Fingers crossed and good luck !:mad::mad:

[Jager43]

Gamle nyheter?
40 års grensen ble innført for flere mnd. siden. (selv om det har blitt gjort unntak etter at den ble innført). Det ble og regelen om at man enten må ha TR eller bli trukket i lønn om Norwegian skal forskuttere TR.
Linetrainingen betaler man vel fortsatt ikke ekstra for?

[flyboy85]

Dette er vel gammelt nytt, har en kompis som fikk jobb i norwegian på denne måten for trekvart år siden... han klager ikke.. det er nok av folk som betaler for sin egen rating (til en høyere pris enn 200k) UTEN å ha noe jobb å gå til, så jeg ser vel egentlig ikke hva som er så galt i at Norwegian tar de penga og gir vedkommende jobb, istedetfor en TRTO... dessverre har det blitt slik at man må betale for egen rating som rookie i dagens marked, med svært få unntak... :sad:

[Northern_Driver]

I agree with Moneyjonkey. That just showes absolutely 0 % respect toward newhires or the old ones aswell..

[Moneyjunkie]

I totally understand the rookies... Offcause they Would move On such an offer... But youre pissing In your pants to keep you warm.
But ITS UP TO THE CAPTAINS OF NORWEGIAN to do something. You guys are On a highway to RYR land if you dont stand up and fight This RIGHT NOW!!!!

[Cloudius]

The Norwegian-pilots are very uncomfortable with the present situation and they are fighting. We just haven´t heard too much about it, yet.

[Guttn]

Monkeyjunkie, it`s not just up to the Captains, though they have a say in it, of course. It is up to, first and foremost, the NPF (Norwegian Union) to put their collective foot down and say enough is enough - the goodwill has ended. Second, it is up to the rest of the pilots in Scandinavia to back them up. This is one major and decisive battle that needs to be won by the NPF so that the race to the bottom can stop, and in time be a race for better hiring terms. :ok:

[Moneyjunkie]

I bet, allmost guarentee that the Norwegian pilots have backup and sympathy from the rest of the Scandi pilots. I sincerely hope that the NPF Will do something drastic here to make a statement. There has been quite some bad news Lately from the north... Pilots On contracts = less pay, ****ty 787 Deal jumping the seniority, and now this... Things are going fast.... Very fast.

I support you guys 1000% and I hope This Will be stopped imidiatly and not debated to death..
For the future of All Scandi/north EU pilots sake.

We ALL have to fight to end This Low pay/ be thankfull for having a job ****...
TIME TO ACT.
Best of luck

[Hogg]

So Norwegian selling the RHS to passengers also!!

This industry is so selective :uhoh:

[truckflyer]

J31/32;

I see Norwegian put 40 as age limit, I am kind of surprised they can legally do this, as this would be a clear age discrimination!

Other companies have removed this, even though we do know certain companies do age discriminate!

I am surprised in a country supposed to be so social aware as Norway, that this exist!

[Albicilla]

la meg slenge en ekstra kubbe på bålet....

Piloter må betale egen forsikring | nordlys.no (http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article6008790.ece)

[Funkstar_deluxe]

Informasjonssjef Åsa Larsson i Norwegian bekreftet imidlertid overfor Nordlys onsdag at alle Norwegians piloter - innleide, som fast ansatte - ved sykdom mottar full lønn i fem dager.


Hvis sykelønn er en selvsagt rettighet i Norge ser jeg ikke helt hvordan fast ansatte DY piloter har samme 5dagers opplegg? Hva slags sosialforsikringssystem er det hun refererer til?

[Swede80]

De fastanställda har väl full sjuklön i 14 dagar innan folketrygden går in och täcker 80% av lönen under sjukskrivningen. Så hon har ju iofs rätt i att båda grupperna har sjuklön i fem dagar. Skillnaden är väl att kontraktarna inte har rätt till en krona efter det om de inte löser försäkringar på egen hand.

Ett klassiskt exempel på väl valda ord...

[Engine_Failure]

Bra at Nordlys setter fokus på hvor kynisk pilotyrket har blitt.

Noen som vet om lønnen og betingelsene/godene til Parc-pilotene iforhold til de fast ansatte hos Norwegian? Det ble jo slått opp stort i avisene at Norwegian drev med sosial dumping for en tid siden med de estiske pilotene på Arpi-kontraktene.

[Funkstar_deluxe]

14 dager for fast ansatte hørtes mer sensible ut, tviler på at foreningen gikk med på 5 dager fra "gammelt" av....

[Blue06]

Noen som vet om lønnen og betingelsene/godene til Parc-pilotene iforhold til de fast ansatte hos Norwegian?
Ca-tall for styrmenn:
Arpi Estland = 2000EUR = ca 183.000 NOK pr år
Parc Malaga = 3800EUR = ca 347.000 NOK pr år
Dette inkluderer:
-Ikke medlem i folketrygden
-Ingen opptjening av pensjon(blir minstepensjonist)
-Ingen forsikringsordninger.
-Ikke noe oppsigelsesvern, selskapet kan la vær å fornye kontrakten hvis man ikke "liker trynet" ditt.
-Ikke betalt skatt. Du kan ha konto hvor som helst i verden og få lønnen dit, feks "skatteparadis" som kanal-øyene.
-Ingen sykelønnsordning, syk mer enn 5 dager= ingen lønn, og evt oppsigelse på dagen.

Norge(fast ansatt) = ca 450.000 NOK pr år. Lønnsøkning basert på ansiennitet, (og dermed oppgradering til kaptein), til ca 1.000.000 etter 15-20(?) år. Og i Norge har man selvfølgelig alle sosiale goder som resten av befolkningen.

Norwegian drev med sosial dumping for en tid siden med de estiske pilotene på Arpi-kontraktene
Men mye av poenget med Arpi/Estland var jo at man faktisk jobber i Finland, men baserer seg på estiske levekostnader.

[Engine_Failure]

Takk for svar Blue06

Jeg mener det er urettferdig at de fastansatte hos Norwegian har høyere lønn plus alle goder, mens kontraktspilotene har lavere lønn og nesten ingen goder. Begge går i den samme uniformen, flyr de samme flyene og jobber like hardt, men alle får ikke samme lønn. Selv om de har baser på forskjellige steder i Europa gjør de strengt tatt samme jobb for Norwegian. :sad:

[Blue06]

(...)urettferdig at de fastansatte hos Norwegian har høyere lønn plus alle goder, mens kontraktspilotene har lavere lønn og nesten ingen goder.
Ja, men å eksportere norske lønninger til Finland eller Spania funker jo ikke. Det er ikke der hovedproblemet ligger, men kontrakter og jobbe i Finland men være ansatt i Estland.

Flere selskaper, bl.a TUIfly Nordic og Novair, har ulik lønn basert på hvilket land man har base i. Dette for å jevne ut utgiftsnivået mellom f.eks Norge og Sverige.
Men man er fast ansatt med alle de goder/plikter det medfører, mtp rettigheter og skatt.

Norwegian kunne utmerket godt ha gjort det samme, faste ansettelser, men jobber man i Finland får man lønn/betingelser tilpasset Finland, og det samme i Spania. Så ville det vært interne avtaler om hvem som skal fly hvor, slik at de billigste ikke tar over all produksjon.

[jackx123]

so what's the big deal paying your way into rhs?

there is a choice: go the "regular" way and stay less competitive or join the market forces and compete.

the swooning days of state carriers are over with massive offices, huge salaries and leave etc.

look at the car industry. somehow WV (being European) can comfortably compete with the rest of the world and still stay hugely profitable.

looking closer at LH they are still profitable despite global competition. give and take, aircraft, fuel, handling are the same across the board. what remain is staff, admin costs etc. to be trimmed.

however, i don't see ryanair as the benchmark (screwing pax BIG) but probably a compromise, when all costs have been included to/from airport, it's a matter of service and convenience.

at the end, to put it simply, it's up to pax to decide what they want to pay for = revenue, and management to control costs.

[Engine_Failure]

Ja, jeg skjønner at Norwegian ikke vil gi like mye i lønn til de som har base i Spania. Men de kunne ha gitt pilotene fast stilling med bedre vilkår for det. Noen har vel utgifter og/eller familie i hjemlandet også...

Ja ja, det er ikke bare jeg som misliker hva Norwegian driver med for tiden.



Pilotforeningen er også kritisk til Norwegians stadig utstrakte bruk av
vikarer i stedet for å ansette piloter fast. Og varsler dermed brudd i
forhandlingene rundt en ny kollektivavtale (K12).

- Vi har gitt ledelsen
frist til klokken 14 fredag om å signalisere en viss kursendring i forhold til
vikarbruk. Vi ønsker at nye piloter som hovedregel skal ansettes fast, ikke som
vikarer, sier Vatnar.


Mot full konflikt i Norwegian - VG Nett om Reiseliv (http://www.vg.no/reise/artikkel.php?artid=10057402)
[/URL]
[URL="http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article6010212.ece"]

(http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article6010212.ece)Nordlys (http://www.nordlys.no/nyheter/article6010212.ece) skriver at flyselskapet sparer penger på å leie inn piloter fra de utenlandske vikarbyråene Arpi og Parc Aviation. De skriver at pilotene i stor grad er rekruttert fra Skandinavia, og utfører de samme oppgavene som sine fast ansatte, norske kolleger – men til en annen lønn, og andre betingelser.

[goku]

Hasn't anyone heard the term

"recruitment ban"?
or
"scabs"?

I'm sorry to mention this for the wannabes, but this will benefit you in the long term.
For current NAS pilots... if you don't act now, where would you picture yourself against a majority of contract pilots in the future?

[Northern_Driver]

Recruitment ban does not help. When some people are offered B737 NG to fly, nothing else matters at that moment, because ladies and gentleman in your mind you are about to become a "real" pilot.

People will pay almost anything even in Norway. Cmon, majority of these guys were flying jetstreams etc. before norwegian if and i mean if they were lucky to have a job at all. It takes few years for the economy to start rising and at some point pilotmarket will rise also. Then this kind of nonsense wont work anymore.

[Swede80]

Is holiday pay included in the ARPI or Parc contracts?

[somethingclever]

The point is not that norwegian are selling ratings. The problem is that the gang joining via this program now, will in two years time be sitting, shaking their heads at the next bunch of guys who will be paying the same amount PLUS 7000 euro for the linetraining, PLUS paying for their uniform AND doing it all for 12% lower pay.

Then two years after THOSE guys, a fresh batch of recruits will be joining with 25% lower pay, paying for everything AND their own hotel on over night stops at work.

Get the picture? The problem is the trend. A trend that will fast make this job completely worthless. Pilots are soon a laughing stock with big "L"-marks on their foreheads.

Stopping that is what it's about. Listening to the apologists who think norewgian are just doing what they have to in order to survive in the market are not getting it. If that's all it's about then why not fire everyone and re-hire them via some moldovan contract agency with 10 euro per hour and no benefits. Imagine the competiveness in the market place! Imagine the profit margin! Imagine working there....

Also, it's interesting to note that people who think this development is just dandy as long as flights are cheap haven't considered the possibility that these business practices might come nocking on their own door soon.

The battle fought long and hard to establish sound work environments and employee rights is being eroded. The right to have social security, maternity leave, a reasonable pension, compensation during sickness were won win blood, sweat and tears years before we were born.

The defining struggle for our generation will be to stem the tide of contract agencies and self-employment. You can see the trend in all sorts of places. People will soon no longer be hired as permanent employees but instead as one-man companies, thus circumventing the safety net put in place by earlier generations. Make no mistake about it, this scenario is a ceo WET DREAM. Just the hint of a possibility of lobbying successfully for the destruction of the right to proper employment is better than sex to these people.

The only thing that will make these suits see reason is MONEY. Present your middle fingers, set the parking break and go have lunch and enjoy watching them trying to explain what's happening to their international investors.

It's, as they say, crunch time now gents. Not just for aviation, but for working people. Stand tall and demand just treatment or they can fly their own goddam airplanes.

[KristianNorway]

That's the best written piece on the subject in here bar none. I hope people read it.
The actions taken now by the "Norwegian" pilots reinfuses a (reasonably) young professional with hope in this business. Any corporation will try to profit from the degradation of terms and conditions of their workers, and finally the pilot union is showing that its job is standing up to corporate pressures. Set the parking brake and kick back until normal terms of employment are again the standard of the trade. You have the support of every single pilot out there.

It's, as they say, crunch time now gents. Not just for aviation, but for working people. Stand tall and demand just treatment or they can fly their own goddam airplanes.

[LeftHeadingNorth]

The only thing that will make these suits see reason is MONEY. Present your middle fingers, set the parking break and go have lunch and enjoy watching them trying to explain what's happening to their international investors.

I could not have said it better myself. Clear sightedness at its very best! :D

[nyhellesund]

I agree......PARKING BRAKE ON NOW.
We don`t need another WestAir Sweden (lux/uk etc.) case.....

[Albicilla]

Perfect slogan for this industry "standtogehter" !!!
Alert the media, educate the passengers, get the message out there!

PARKING BAKE ON!

print the t-shirts. I´ll take one in large.

[Guttn]

Whatever the outcome, there is going to be changes in the current condition. And hopefully for the better in any case. My 2 views;
1. The disagreement ends in a strike. Eyes open all around Europe. Most will support their colleagues, but there are always some who are gravediggers and will try to benefit from this.
2. Management agrees to the union`s demands. Management then goes to national politicians to get some legislature in force so they won`t fall behind in the race to the bottom competition started by MOL and the likes.
Hopefully this disagreement will spark a fuse throughout Europe and force EASA to look deeper into things.
Middle finger response :ok::ok::ok::D:D:D And we`ve got your backs!

[Moneyjunkie]

All the support to NO guys IN This battle. Its great to see you guys dont take This crap. This is the ONLY Way to proper working conditions.

100% support !!

[EngineOut]

Get the picture? The problem is the trend. A trend that will fast make this job completely worthless. Pilots are soon a laughing stock with big "L"-marks on their foreheads.

That already happened when guys signed up on he ARPI contract as stated above. 2000 Euros a month and nothing more... Whats the long term plan there? Treating a 737 job as some kind of hour building program? Do they honestly think that the today well paid jobs in the ME etc. will remain so once all these "hour builders" fight for the jobs by under bidding each other?

Everyone is saying we shall all stand together and fight! But how will that happen when there are loads of guys and girls out there who will silently stand beside and watch while their colleagues take huge risks to make a change. A change they will happily step in and take part of when it happens, but until then they won't do a thing. I for one hope that these people are told to **** off the next time they apply for a job at a better airline.

Wy don't the permanent employees at DY refuse to fly with the contractors? As stated above PARKING BRAKE ON!!

[somethingclever]

Wy don't the permanent employees at DY refuse to fly with the contractors?

Because there are procedures in place that need to be adhered to. What you are suggesting would be an illegal strike. The ball is in motion and it is rolling towards the brick wall, if a strike will happen or not is too early to tell but I would say it is pretty clear by now that IF that is what is needed that a strike it is.

Ultimately however this is a large scale problem that can only be solved politically. The main problem is the spineless bought tools in the various aviation authorities and the politicians who do not care about the industry they are supposed to regulate because they are busy counting tax payer money and lobby money rolling in to their accounts every day.

Bring back crucifixion is what I say. You start nailing a few corrupt CAA managers and EASA reps to crosses for their neglect you will see things changing pretty goddam quickly...

[AUTO/MAN]

Good post somethingclever!
At the same time I find the whole situation a bit funny. A few years ago when DY started, most of you presently employed happily bought and paid for a rating, thus underbidding and undermining already experienced and employed guys who weren't willing to pay for a job.
If you guys and girls hadn't done so, a natural movement in the scandi pilotmarket would have taken place.
DY was the first to exploit the stupidity of young pilots in Scandinavia. Why not move the goalposts again as most of you went for it the first time?
All of you feeling betrayed should see this as a valuable lesson as you are pretty much experiencing the same thing you caused others a couple of years ago when you decided to go ahead and pay for a job when most people already employed and experienced decided not to.
Personally I wish you all well. I hope that you will stand united in this conflict.
At the same time I can't help wondering if you are not getting what you paid for?

[AUTO/MAN]

Good post somethingclever!
At the same time I find the whole situation a bit funny. A few years ago when DY started, most of you presently employed happily bought and paid for a rating, thus underbidding and undermining already experienced and employed guys who weren't willing to pay for a job.
If you guys and girls hadn't done so, a natural movement in the scandi pilotmarket would have taken place.
DY was the first to exploit the stupidity of young pilots in Scandinavia. Why not move the goalposts again as most of you went for it the first time?
All of you feeling betrayed should see this as a valuable lesson as you are pretty much experiencing the same thing you caused others a couple of years ago when you decided to go ahead and pay for a job when most people already employed and experienced decided not to.
Personally I wish you all well. I hope that you will stand united in this conflict.
At the same time I can't help wondering if you are not getting what you paid for?

[Mazdata]

Kjos thinks that you should "adapt to the changes"

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[Northern_Driver]

I think Auto/Man is explaining well the rootcause of this situation.

[overdover]

Er det virkelig sant at de mener du må ta rating på nytt hos dem hvis du har rating men mindre enn 500timer på type?