Chinook No Lights on Heathrow Flight Path

[marieguk]

This is my first and maybe my only post to this forum, I just googled somewhere that talked about Chinooks with no lights that wasnt the loony brigade.

I live on the flight path to Heathrow and am used to planes flying over fairly low just north of Wokingham. I was stunned tonight though to hear a Chinook helicopter with no lights on at all fly over perpendicular to the normal flightpath. This is highly dangerous unless of course there is a big big emergency going on.
Roughly about 11:30. about an hour ago.

[Skipness One Echo]

Traffic is almost done for the night that late and helicopter traffic is actually quite common at LHR. It's quite common to see crossing traffic right over the runway thresholds, all co-ordinated with Heathrow ATC.

http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int/eadbasic/pamslight-44D326C8C23112823A8152F26E4BB95B/7FE5QZZF3FXUS/EN/Charts/AD/AIRAC/EG_AD_2_EGLL_4-1_en_2011-12-15.pdf

The Chinook would have been working a relevant ATC unt and kept out of harms way.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<This is highly dangerous unless of course there is a big big emergency going on.>>

Not dangerous at all in terms of conflict with Heathrow traffic.. Wokingham is a long way from Heathrow and Heathrow traffic would be well above the Chinook. I live in Finchampstead and Chinooks fly over here daily. At dusk they appear to have no lights but using pair of binoculars they can be seen. Haven't ever seen one with the sort of lights civil aircraft use - strobes, anti-collision beacons, etc. - maybe they're not equipped with them. Perhaps a military person could advise?

Try seeing the lights on the AN-12s that overfly us from East Midlands down over France. I can't!

[Talkdownman]

A Chinook over Wokingham is highly likely to be outside controlled airspace, and well below Heathrow traffic within CAS descending to, or maintaining, 3000ft. Chinook night-ops are very frequent, and necessary for obvious reasons. Probably northbound from Odiham, and routing clear of the London Control Zone to its west on what is a well-plied north-south route for that very reason.

Edit: Sorry HD, my finger getting slower than ever...

[xtypeman]

Could have been a night ex so flying in battle conditions etc. Would probably be working London Mil for ATC cover.

[CHINOOKER]

As Heathrow Director says,it's a pretty common occurence. I live adjacent to Northolt and quite often we have both Chinooks and Merlins routing back down the heli lanes late at night, west bound to either Odiham or Benson respectively. Most of these are either returning home from East Anglia etc,or are on a nav-ex around London on the heli lanes,so nothing out of the ordinary! Latest time i have recorded Chinooks over my house was October last year,when two went over around 1-30am.....Sounded great!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

[Above The Clouds]

This is highly dangerous unless of course there is a big big emergency going
on.


Why is it highly dangerous, and what would a big emergency have to do with having lights on or off?

[pulse1]

As has been said, not uncommon in that area and where I live. From what I've seen, if there is one with no lights, there is often another one not far away with normal lights.

I was driving down the M3 one night and was watching strobe lights crossing well ahead from right to left. Then a black shape crossed just in front of me with no lights and probably about 100'. Looked vaguely like a Puma but could have been anything. Gave me quite a fright.

[mariegriffiths]

Thanks for all the replies. I thought it very strange as it had no lights whatsoever. Usually military craft have some lights even if they are different to civil craft. At 1000ft estimate it seemed very close to the 4000ft estimate of the well trodden path into Heathrow.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<At 1000ft estimate it seemed very close to the 4000ft estimate of the well trodden path into Heathrow.>>

Firstly. it is nigh on impossible for even experienced people - pilots, air traffic controllers, etc, - to accurately estimate the height of an aircraft or the difference in height between two aircraft close together.

Aircraft operating into Heathrow flying over Wokingham will usually be descending to 4000 feet and when they turn north they continue to 3000 ft. As already mentioned, they are in Controlled Airspace and navigation is controlled by ATC. Helicopters within the same airspace follow special routes and altitudes to keep them clear of commercial traffic.

[Hotel Tango]

If you estimated the Chinook to be at 1000 ft in an area where LHR traffic is (by your own admission) at 4000 feet, in my book that leaves more than the minimum legally required seperation. So where is the problem?

[BOAC]

marieguk - are you aware that regular commercial traffic over most of the world has as little as 600ft separation from other traffic, and this includes traffic areas without ATC radar separation such as the Atlantic? Not meaning to frighten you, but as many have said here - there was no danger. Training for 'no lights' is an important part of mil training for obvious reasons. I doubt very much that the Russians would have had their nav lights on if they had ever come over to attack the UK :).

[mariegriffiths]

Thanks to the people who are taking a great effort to reply. I'm pretty used to the aircraft coming into Heathrow, they line up with the beacon at Woodley. I'm also used to the route to the Ascot heliport. I can't see why the Chinook cannot train in the safety of Sailsbury plain et all especially at night with no visuals. I don't get this 'stealth' mode at all as even an amateur like myself can hear and recognise the Woka, Woka sound a mile off. It would be easy pickings for an Afghan peasant with a missle launcher. Those guys out there must be brave.

[Torque Tonight]

I can't see why the Chinook cannot train in the safety of Sailsbury plain

Maybe they needed to go from one place that is not in Salisbury Plain to another place that is also not in Salisbury Plain.

I don't get this 'stealth' mode at all

So you didn't see the Chinook you just heard it. So how would you aim a weapon at it?

The 'highly dangerous' separation you mention is about triple the distance that airliners routinely miss each other by. Frankly your comments are coming across as a bit naive and daft.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I'm pretty used to the aircraft coming into Heathrow, they line up with the beacon at Woodley.>>

Sorry Marie but the beacon at Woodley has nothing to do with aircraft on the approach to Heathrow. The whole exercise is controlled by the radar directors based at Swanwick. Aircraft route to four beacons where they may be required to hold or "stack". Once they leave those beacons they are controlled by radar until they are on final approach to the airport - i.e. lined up with the landing runway about 10 miles from touchdown.

HTH

[Talkdownman]

This is highly dangerous unless of course there is a big big emergency going on
How would an emergency mitigate danger ?