Time to start Lion Air p2f Programme

[spinola]

I am considering entering the eagle jet line training with Lion Air, but I have heard that the pilots who enroll on the previous programme with one year contract took six months to be called and almost six months to begin the line training, Can someone who is flying on Lion Air through eagle jet program help clarifying the doubts.
Thank you

[truckflyer]

I have a friend there now, he was actually called pretty fast after his TR was done, but he failed his first OPC, and got stuck for 6 months before he got back into the sim again.

Was tough, but he is happy there now for the moment!

[spinola]

Do you know where did he make the TR?

[truckflyer]

In Berlin, however I heard he was not happy with the TR, he blamed them for not being up to the standards of Lion Air's requirement. It was one of the ones recommended by Eagle Jet.

[inner]

:bored: so if i understand well: you are going to spend around 50k eur extra to get a job????

[No RYR for me]

No he is spending 50K to do a type rating with a change on a job :rolleyes:

[BigNumber]

50K seems like pretty good value as compared with writing off the complete licence.

Have a look down the back of your mums sofa; send us your money plenty quick!

[pilot hans]

The people I know working for Lion Air did the Type Rating with CAE, 27500 euro. 2 or 3 month's later they were in Indonesia and they were paid from the day of arrival. This was over the last 2 years. They fly a lot and life is not to bad there (if you're a bit open to new cultures)

[737max]

Erm..... No!! you don't get paid when you arrive in Jakarta, you will only get paid when you've completed your 500hrs and signed the contract with lionair.

Only MSD paid when you arrived in Jakarta but I think they've lost the contract.

[greenedgejet]

LION AIR:


"Human error has been the biggest source of air accidents in Indonesia. According to the National Committee for Transportation Safety,
52 percent of all aircraft accidents between 2007 and 2011 were caused by human error."

" Lion Air is not only FAA and E.U. blacklisted, but one of the least on-time and most-dangerous airlines in the region.

First and foremost, LionAir (along with many other Indonesian carriers) is on the list of airlines banned in the European Union due to safety concerns. This list is exactly what it sounds like—a blacklist. Most of the airlines on the EU blacklist are located in the African continent, apart from a few former Soviet bloc countries, North Korea, and, of course, Indonesia. The FAA maintains an equivalent blacklist watchlist (thank you Brett for the correction), which lists carriers which fall under category 2 or higher of the FAA’s International Aviation Safety Assessment (IASA) Program (ie. countries audited as not meeting ICAO standards). Lion Air is on this watchlist due to its location in Indonesia as well.

Secondly, Lion Air has grounded 13 of its aircraft for reserve use due to sanctions from the transport minitry caused by poor OTP (on-time performance). According to the Jakarta Post, the Indonesian transportation ministry recorded that Lion Air’s OTP was the worst of those surveyed by 66.45% in an assessment conducted from January to April 2011 at 24 airports nationwide. If you think isolation of this figure is unfair to Lion, consider that Lion Air’s close competitor Garuda managed an 86.9% OTP within the same period.

Any red flags yet? Let’s add another log to the fire.


Lion Air Flight 538 crashed at Adi Sumarmo Airport in Surakarta, killing 25 people.
Lion Air has crashed 5 aircraft since operations began 12 years ago in 1999, including a 737-200 in 2002, an MD-82 in 2006, a 737-400 in 2006, a 737-400 in 2010 and a fatal MD-82 crash in 2004 which killed 25 people. Aviation Herald has 19 incidents on record for Lion Air, including those already mentioned. Using the crash statistics alone, the airline has encountered an average of one crash every 2 years, which by those stats indicates Lion Air is due for another incident sometime in 2012. Let’s hope they’ve learned a thing or two since 2010, and have implemented new safety regulations to avoid one. It’s worth noting that Lion Air has not technically “crashed” any of its more modern New Generation 737s, however they do appear to have an issue with runway overruns, racking up 11 runway overruns in its 11 years of operation (with the most recent being less than a month ago at Balikpapan Airport on Oct 23rd 2011 with a 737-900). Would you let your children fly Lion Air?"

Would you let your child Fly for Lion Air?

:ugh:

P2F:
PAY $$$$ up front then "Fly a minimum of 100h per month, so you get your 500hrs in about 5-6 months time...
After that, a contract is offered to you (local terms)"

[wingreencard]

After that, a contract is offered to you (local terms)

if you are not dead yet!

[BigNumber]

Utter cobblers chaps. This is pprune not an ICAO safety meeting.

If you are in the front you are responsible for your own actions and safety. You should pitch these thoughts to passenger consumer groups. The chaps at Lion have a set of controls infront of them.

Lion presents a good chance to log plenty of hours in a short period of time then applying to a major carrier.

Frankly; it's a cracker!!:D

[Callsign Kilo]

I say go for it, but it important to know

If you are in the front you are responsible for your own actions and safety.

The chaps at Lion have a set of controls infront of them.

Neither of that matters. For the statements to be effective you need to have a standard. Lion Air hasn't got one.

Lion presents a good chance to log plenty of hours in a short period of time then applying to a major carrier.

It has been regarded as the last chance saloon for the fool and his money. I have seen the 'standard' of the Lion Air product and IMHO I would be happier with someone who has 500hrs on Microsoft FS and a copy of the B737 FCTM. Simply 'logging' 500hrs on a 737 doesn't mean you will gain any relative experience. You will probably be tainted for life and need considerable retraining, if you ever get the opportunity. These so called 'major carriers' are running a mile, believe me.

[truckflyer]

"Callsign Kilo "

What you proclaim is a load of BS!

I know plenty of Scandi pilots gone trough EJ, and now working with other airlines, they got the hours, the experience, passed their assessment, OPC, Line checks, that's what matters!

It seems Lion's training standards was higher than the TR provider in Berlin!

Correct the TR is not the expensive part, is the extras, waiting around, courses in different parts of the world, extra sims etc.

It's not just TR and paying for 500 hours!

Step to far for me, but for anybody doing it, good luck, stop the normal slagging match about the P2F! Everybody will do what they have to do to get an advantage in their career!

It's not a game, it's real life!

[Mikehotel152]

they got the hours, the experience, passed their assessment, OPC, Line checks, that's what matters!

Truckflyer, you're kidding. Right? I think Callsign Kilo is right about Lion Air, the dangers (literally) of flying with them, and a pilot's employability after gaining 500 hours with them. There will always be exceptions - people knowing someone who had a great experience at Lion and now flies for a major airline, but....

A group of Lion Air cadets did their type rating alongside us at CAE in Amsterdam a few years ago. They were taught (what seemed like) similar stuff, by the same instructors (IIRC) and seemed intelligent guys. Criticisms of Lion Air are not criticisms of the abilities of the cadets. But 500 hours of flying with insane Captains in marginal weather in a poor crm environment is not 'good experience'.

I also have a friend who went there and he said it was terrifying flying for them. He was ill, lost his medical and then got dropped by them. You see, it doesn't matter how 'good' you think the raw product coming out of the TRTO, it's what happens on the line that matters.

Contrast Lion Air's reputation, blacklisting and basic terms and conditions with Ryanair and you can see why FR has an excellent safety record (touch wood) and provides pilots to many major airlines.

Go to Lion Air at your peril.

[pilotchute]

Mr Truckflyer,

I have noticed on these threads about Lion Air and the other P2F schemes that there are a minority of people defending the practice and claiming to know people who have come out of Lion Air or whoever else and landed jobs with world class respectable airlines.

In the last six or so months not one person has come onto pprune and claimed to be a graduate of said schemes and landed a job at Qatar/BA/Gulf Air/AF/Flydubai etc. There are a number who have completed the courses and still don't have a job which I would say are the majority.

Stop believing these rumours. You only do this because you want them to be true. If it was true there would be a whole thread dedicated to the wonders of Lion Air and it's amazing pay to fly package.

[BigNumber]

Maybe we just enjoy watching people spend their money?:E

[IRS ALIGN]

@pilotchute

When was the last time anyone came on this thread to compliment anything? People only seem to post if they have something to complain about and not the opposite.

[captain.weird]

@IRS..

Why would they say positive things? If they would be positive, they would do other things than PPRune.. Am I wrong?:\

[YaKyLLaN]

Lot of spanish pilots are doing that program/are about to start it. I know at least 6 of them, all aged between 23-25, all ex-mates from my flight school. Low houred pilots.

They really believe LionAir it is the best you can find right now. "At least you're flying, you will gain more than 2000h at the end", they said to me. The overall cost is more than 50.000€ if you take into account the TR+LT+ Self expenses (housing, food, etc) during 8months-1year.

But.. after the LT, what? LionAir says "4 years of employ, guaranteed".

Are you sure you will get a job? I mean.. you're paying a big amount of money dude, are you 100% sure you will get a job for 4 years? If that's true.. what about your future salary, can you tell me anything? 1500$-2000$? It is important too.

And.. at the end of the 4 years, what if you want to come to Europe? Will you be accepted? I have heard "that kind" of pilots might be blacklisted in Europe (because of the poor SOPs there).

Well, nobody of them knew the answer to these questions. They are taking it as an adventure.

I know a pilot who did that program about 4 years ago and now he's flying the 737-8, airline pilot. He's earning more than 3000$/month, things went well for him but he didn't trust LionAir/Eaglejet. He told me "be careful about the 4 years contract.. they will do whatever they want to do with you""


Be careful. You can ruin your family.

[B737Dude]

Come on guys, I know its really tempting to pay 2 fly but don't lose your hope from God just yet!! Everyone dreams of getting into a airline job the day they finish flight training but its never the case!! Theres people out there who waited 3/4 years to be just called for a interview! I don't want to sound depressing but the guys who are over 30 should be the ones worried!! If your 23/25 or even bit older there is still plenty of opportunities out there! Just don't rush into P2F just because your other flight school friends have Jet jobs or been offered the RHS with RYR!! Just keep it real!!

There is plenty of newly qualified Doctors working in tescos doing something they don't want to do but its life!!

The worst thing that makes it more depressing is people constantly asking if I have found a flying job yet!! and it does get veryyy depressing after awhile but its life! I'm not going jump to pay 50k+ to wear the fancy uniform!!

Keep your money in your pocket!! Theres people out there that has never seen or will properly see 50K in there life time! Just appreciate the roof over your head and food on the table! :ok:

[truckflyer]

I agree be careful, and 4 years might be to long there, unless you are 21 and single, than you will have loads of fun over there!

Here my main point though, 4 year contract, but who is going to force you stay there for that amount of time if you are unhappy?

Pack your bags with over 1500 hours and find job somewhere else! Simple!

I don't agree with this, however no use to make things worse than they really are! If you can afford it, it sure better economy than working as an FI for the next 5 years, and gaining hours on SEP only, although the experience would be great, not all want to sit and wait around as an FI, and still after many years no chance of a job!

[YaKyLLaN]

I have heard LionAir makes you sign a 100.000$ bond if you want to leave earlier.

I'm not sure about that, it can be a rumour..

[truckflyer]

Bond or no Bond, they are not legally enforceable!

You have paid for all your training, so on what grounds with they be able to enforce any kind of bond!

I believe however absurd it might seem to sound, such a bond would make you a "slave" As I am not considering this myself, I havent gone into depth about this, however after conversation with a lawyer friend of mine about this some time ago, he was pretty sure that no such bond would be legally enforceable!

In other words, pack your bags and leave whenever you want, Lion don't have a leg to stand on!

[City or Jet]

Only worry would be any issues as a result of leaving in such a way, i.e. references, converting licence from DGCA to JAA or what have you, perhaps not being able to visit Indonesia in the future...not sure really.

[truckflyer]

Fair enough your reference from Lion will be screwed up! But do you think that will be a big issue?

Lion would never bother spending money taking it to court, so no reason why you should be barred from going to Indonesia! That's an absurd thought!

I would assume you would be leaving with another job in hand already or contract, not just leaving without anything to go to!

I have spoken to a few captains I know with regarding this, and most of them doubt that another company would really be to bothered, as you would be able to give a good explanation to the reason for leaving!

There are many reasons to use for leaving Indonesia, it is not exactly paradise on earth, and being European origin, it can be many reasons for getting close to home etc. No contract is water tight, specially under such terms.

If you get bonded for $100.000, than that sounds like a slavery contract, which is not enforceable.
As Lion Air is already blacklisted, I am sure if you are very creative you should be able to give many good reasons for wanting to leave the company early!

[737max]

I think you will find that your wrong there pal, Lion air will take you court.

They did it to a pilot and they also claimed for loss of earnings.

If you want to fly in Jakarta then expect to complete the contract or pay the $50k to get out of the contract.

If we guys try to play the smart game by just gaining hours and then leaving them, then its only going get tougher for us.

sometimes it makes sense why we cant get jobs anywhere these days its because all we want is hours and when we do get them we just get up and come back to fly in the JAA airspace and leave these guys thinking don't employ anyone from Europe.

But there isn't any jobs over here.

Interesting world don't you think guys.

[truckflyer]

Believe me, if they take you to court, you will have a field day!

Check out a bit information about slave trade contracts, they have not provided you with anything!

You get a job in the Middle East or Europe, you really think Lion Air are going to spend thousands to take you to court?

Tell me how they can legally bond you, when you have paid for ALL the training yourself, and you have also paid them for 500 hours line-training!

Sorry, but if I went to accept such terms, my loyalty for them would have been as shallow as their misuse of us pilots!

I would have left as soon as ANYTHING better came along! I have been in Jakarta, believe me, it is not the place you would spend 4 years if you have a choice of going somewhere else!

As Captain I know also said, most airlines, would see the benefit of hiring you, you have experience, you are rated, and if locally, they would be stealing a pilot from the competition, already fully trained!

The fact is that Lion does NOT pay for your training, that's the main reason that any such bond would be illegal, and as far as my friend the lawyer could understand, considered slave-trade!

Bonded labour or debt bondage

This is when a person's work is the security for a debt - effectively the person has not been sold, but they are on 'a long lease' which they cannot bring to an end, and so cannot leave their 'employer'
The conditions of employment can be such that the labourer can't pay off their debt and is stuck for life, because of low wages, deductions for food and lodging, and high interest rates

BBC - Ethics - Slavery: Modern slavery (http://www.bbc.co.uk/ethics/slavery/modern/modern_1.shtml)

So if such a bond of $100.000 really exist, I say good luck to Lion to try to take that pilot to court! I would fancy my chance of actually counter suing them!

And only an IDIOT would go to Indonesia for such a "imaginary trial!"

Get a lawyer to send them a couple of strong letters, and you will NEVER hear from Lion again!:ok:

And 737max; you think pilots doing this will ruin your chances, than you already a lost case! Lion air is ruining your chances by behaving unethical, and actually forcing on you a slave contract, that is illegal! (in the modern world)

[dwshimoda]

...your last 5 years employment with references from each employer... might cause you a few problems.

[truckflyer]

You would assume you would only leave if you had another job lined up!

I assume not all people in HR are completely a.szzzzes!

Unreasonable terms and conditions, how much would they care about a reference from a company such as Lion Air, if at all they would give you one anyway!

[737max]

Truckflyer,

You do not sign the contract until you have completed your 500hrs, then you will have a choice to sign it or you can still work for them but you will not get paid!! But because so many pilots think they are smart by not signing and are still working for free lion air will get rid of you simple as that!!

Now back to the contract you are NOT signing a bond you are signing to that if you leave lion air or break the contract you will pay $50k end of!!

BTW I don't know why you are bringing EU or UK laws into it. they cant protect you.

I still think going to Jakarta is the best option. I know a lot of pilots won't like the idea of 4 Years but that's their choice. I still think its wrong for pilots to go there for just for 1000 hrs or so and then break the contract because its only going to more tough for the next batch and so on.

[truckflyer]

737max;

Exactly, Lion will not have a leg to stand on.

Who in their life will care about financial commitment to a company in Indonesia if they should against all odds win such case, which I highly doubt, unless it is a real kangaroo court!

I am a bit surprised how so many can have such misplaced loyalty towards a company that is purely taking advantage of the pilots in such manner!

If pilot returns to Europe, how do you in your wildest imagination believe that Lion air could enforce such a draconian fine on the pilot? Maybe they could win in their own court, however it would mean NOTHING in any other country in the world! FACT!

For such a company I believe it would be use and abuse, same way as they use and abuse pilots!

Note that I would NEVER say this about any normal company, and as mentioned before, completely against my norms and ethics, but if a company has no loyalty or ethics towards you, why do they deserve the same against them!

[truckflyer]

737max;

And your sentiment about getting more tough for the next batch!!! Really? Seriously? What they going to keep your passport or something else to make sure you don't leave!

My friend, this is the definition of modern slave-trade.

If somebody are that DUMB, sorry, but they go there, and think that they must stay loyal to Lion Air, to protect the next bunch of P2F pilots, well that is the most stupid thing I have ever heard!

When/if you decide to do such a program, you are already deciding to look out for yourself! With the first offer these pilots get with a proper company, after 1000 - 1500 hours, they will be OFF! If you think that you read spend 2.5 years in Lion, than going to BA, Emirates or another good company, than it shows you are not in touch with reality!

Such an economical case in some third world country would be insignificant, what you explained with the contract is at least in Europe not legal, and that's what I would worry about!

[wingreencard]

in these countries(asia), usually if you break their contract, they report to their DCA and the DCA will be sure you never get a job again.

They call imigration office and can block you at the departure custom and bring you to justice with a stop of 3 months in a nice little cell that you will share with very nice mates.This apply only if you own money to a company.At Lion, I am sure they will be happy if you leave after 3 days, and they will keep your money.

Lion Air will be probably your final stop in your career, with all the bad habits learned there (like going below MDA or DH "tuck under"?), I am sure BA will be interested by you (sarcasm!!!), they are desperate for Lion Air pilots(double sarcasm!)

[truckflyer]

Just get things straight, I am not considering going there.

And how will customs stop you if you already left the country?

Have you worked there yourself since you point facts of breach of procedures? That's not what people I know tell me, who currently fly for them!

Anyway I am not supporting Lion in anyway or shape, I visited Jakarta, and have no desire to return there ever, I can imagine somebody there for 2- 3 years would share the same sentiment!

[mutt]

Fair enough your reference from Lion will be screwed up! But do you think that will be a big issue?

Friend of mine was employed by a large ME carrier, they wanted a reference, he was given one month to produce one or leave. Once they had obtained it, they actually called the previous employer to check the authenticity...... So be careful about references. (Note, previous employer wasnt Lion Air)

[truckflyer]

Well I still stand by opinion that any such clause in a contract would not be legal, of course in countries like Indonesia they have different laws.

I still think 2000 hours on 737, without a reference, is better than 0 hours searching for some job that does not exist!

Anyway not really my problem, as I am not considering Lion beer at all, but if it was my choice I would use them just as they use pilots, no more, no less!

What comes around goes around!

[mutt]

You sound disgruntled, did you ever read wea weasley welshmans messages about 3-4 years ago? It appears that so much of what he forewarned has come true.......

[truckflyer]

Mutt,

Disgruntled, not really! Yes I read WWW posts, and he has always had something good to say, even though we might not like all we read.

I firmly believe my chance will come, hopefully sooner rather than later, however I am probably in a better situation than most who gotten into this!

It is tiring to look for that first job, I have the money to do Lion if I wanted, but for me there are more important things than flying that takes priority, and that is my wife and daughter! So until the right chance comes, I will not jet out to Lion, and if against all the odds I had done it, I would have been very pragmatic about it, just my point of view!

[wingreencard]

I firmly believe my chance will come, hopefully sooner rather than later, however I am probably in a better situation than most who gotten into this!


good luck because in europe nobody is interested by old pilot unless you have strong experience on jar25 a/c.

[truckflyer]

There are chances, time will show.

[737max]

truckflyer,

Can I ask you how many hrs you've got? also are you type rated?

[manojadhana1987]

Dear All,

My name is Manoj Kumar. I am a Indian citizen and holding a Indian commercial pilot licence. I have applied for the pilot job in lion air company thorough MSD aviation. So I just wanted to know is this proggramme of B 737ng offered by MSD aviation is true or not. Because I don't know anyone personally who has done this course through them. So please do send me a conformation mail about this programme so that i can proceed further. I willl be very thankful to you..

[CY333]

Has anyone of you just bought the 300 or 500 hr pack but with no employment?

How fast were you put on the program after arriving at Lion Air?

[josemarb]

Guys, still no answer from anybody doing the programm through California Falcon Aviation:ugh:.

Please, I would be very grateful to anybody sharing some info about that agency.

Is by far, cheaper than Eagle Jet but any references are given or no references in the Better Business :bored:

[wingreencard]

give them your money, and report back....!:E

[M-ONGO]

Why not buy 1000 hours?

[AlexanderH]

California Falcon mention a montly salary of between $4-4800 per month.

Is this more than the EagleJet chaps get? I heard that they are on $3000 per month?

[pfvspnf]

Are they still doing P2F?

Are the rules still on place that for FO to be a PF he/she can only land on an ILS approach after 300 in type ?

This airline seems to be a disaster however it would be good to hear the current status of things at lion and how people escape with the poor training and experience

[BAe 146-100]

Why you ask this question mr P2F?

No there is no p2f there anymore since the rule was brought in 2013 regarding expat fo and 250 hours on type. No getting around it, no paying, nothing.

Also even to apply to Lion with hours now they are only taking FO with 3000 tt minimum plus hours on type.

Good luck.:ok: