Dear Abby....

[Sunfish]

Dear Abby,

My son got married today to a lovely girl who happens to be a former airforce officer (ADFA) who has a PPL but no current medical.

Can she occupy the Left hand seat if she is flying with me? (I'm just a PPL) or does she need the right hand seat with me in the left to be legal?

yours,

BankofDad.

[PA39]

You are pilot in command and if you don't have a FIR you must be in the pilots seat (LHS). She has no current medical so therefore cannot be PIC.

[VH-XXX]

Incorrect.

You can legally fly from the right seat unless a command seat is specified in the aircraft flight manual. The aircraft must have dual flight controls so any almost any Cessna is safe. There are few aircraft with limitations on command seat. The Liberty XL2 has a requirement for left seat as the safety hammer in the back of the right seat cannot be reached from the right seat.

Also the same in RA-Aus, there is no command seat.

As for your flying school where you hire from, that is a different story, they may not allow command from right seat. Also if you haven't done it before, perhaps best with a safety pilot in the left seat until you are confident. You will find that you have less of a feel for the aircraft and will tend to fly more by the numbers. Enjoy, as new skills are always a good thing to work on.

Sorry Nitpicker, the early bird gets the worm :-)

[nitpicker330]

Ahh well technically yes she can sit in the LHS, unless the Aircraft Flight manual states the PIC must sit in the left seat.............

However as a PPL I wouldn't go doing stupid things like trying to fly from the right seat just yet..:ok:


I see XXX beat me to the punch!!;)

[MACH082]

You can fly as PIC from whatever seat you want, as long as it's a control seat.

It would probably be prudent to get checked out in the right seat to make sure you are proficient.

The catch will be in the CARs regarding manipulation of controls by an authorised person. You can't exercise the privileges your licence without a medical however.

[framer]

If you do it be aware that you are creating a situation where you'l have less free brain space ( due flying from unfamiliar position) to build situational awareness, good decision making is based to no small degree on good situational awareness so may not be up to your normal standard.
In addition you will have distractions that are not normally present (ie coordinating/discussing the flight). Distractions are often a precurser to making mistakes you would not otherwise make.
What am I trying to say? If you do it, be more conservative than you would normally be. Start the flight with the mindset that when offered choices (by ATC, or about weather etc) you will take the conservative option on this flight.
I have no idea if I'm teaching you to suck eggs Sunfish,disregard if I am, but I enjoy most of your posts and wouldn't want to see them stop suddenly :)

[baswell]

However as a PPL I wouldn't go doing stupid things like trying to fly from the right seat just yet..
Do people really struggle with this? From training start, I have never had a problem randomly changing between left and right and stick or yoke. I refuse to believe I am the exception to the rule and would rather imagine this is a myth. Getting used to for a little bit, maybe, but spending serious time "learning" this???

I would also imagine there is a reason why there are no endorsements for differing controls and seats...

[Lookleft]

Most light aircraft are set up to have the PIC in the LHS i.e fuel tank selector on Pipers, instrumentation. Flying instructors are trained to fly from the RHS so don't disregard why they receive that training. Why not just allow her to have her reconnection with the joy of flying from the RHS and avoid any legal ambiguity?

[The Green Goblin]

You are the exeption baswell. It must be because you are a fantastic Pilot. Better than the rest.

That's what you wanted to hear right?

There is a reason why in airlines check pilots need to be right seat current and had a proficiency check within the past six months to operate from that seat.

The differences are subtle but I always found the flare and retarding the thrust/power levers coordination difficult to nail as I would from my regular seat.

[tmpffisch]

Sunfish, just let her fly from the right hand seat. Better than trying to explain why you were sitting in the RHS when you get ramped one day, and explaining the legalities behind it; when all you're trying to do is covertly let a pilot without a medical fly the plane with you sitting next to them.

[framer]

I don´t know if struggle is the best word to describe it.
If you are very familiar with flying from the right, it will require more deliberate thought and mental processing to fly from the left.The more familiar you are with one seat, the more you will notice the extra mental processing required when you shift.
For example, you can probably monitor your speed tape and body angle and reach down and adjust the tilt or gain of your radar at the same time and not look at the radar knob if you are familiar with the seat you´re in. When you change seats, to achieve the same thing you will have to look away from you flight display and locate the radar panel then make the adjustment and then reacquaint yourself with the flight display readings you are seeking. That is one example of many that will become apparent. One that I notice is that my arm seems to ¨know¨the correct angle or position for the thrust settings I am seeking, when I change seats I need to glance at the N1% more often because my other arm isn´t so well educated.
I think it is the same principal as when you are used to a Holden and then you drive a European car and put the windshield wipers on at every second corner.
All of these things require mental work to be done and as a result you have less mental reserves available for building your situational awareness.
If you don´t experience any of these things baswell I imagine it is due to one of four things;
1/ You are the exception to the rule
2/ You are not very familiar with your seat (doubtful from your post)
3/ You have forgotten what it was to not be current in both seats.
4/ You don't notice when something increases your mental workload.

If someone has been changing seats regularly they can become equally comfortable with either seat.

[Andy_RR]

Bloody hell. All you left-hand seat nannies should run along and learn) to fly a Cub. That'll get your left and right brains coordinated!

[Frank Arouet]

Preferrably a J3. Imagine sitting the back.

[machadotaughtme]

Do casa even bother ramping ppl pilots? Commercial ops hardly ever get ramped let alone private. Just do it, casa won't care unless you put it into a tree or the ground

[Shagpile]

On the P3 I think we're unique - copilot conversion is done from the left seat with only a single flight as radio guy from the RHS.

Then at the squadron, we take in turns left and right daily. The captain does a series of copilot supervision (read: how not to let them kill you) sims before this is allowed.

The occasional takeoff/landing is done from the RHS but only at light weights and it's not common. The majority of flying is whoever is in the left runs the show and gets the takeoff/land. It is different landing from the RHS and most guys land on the right side of the runway! Pulling power levers into reverse with your left hand is also different as you don't have the muscle memory of how far back they go to flight idle & reverse.

The end result is quite good - you get fresh copilots who know how to fly the plane very well and you can load shed by letting them fly whilst running the crew.

There is also no dedicated "captaincy course" as such, rather a series of flights, tutorials, exams and sim rides embedded into routine flying and operations such that after 2-3 years they become captain assuming they put in the work.

[blackhand]

Dear Abby,
My son got married today to a lovely girl who happens to be a former airforce officer

Indeed Sunfish I can see your problem.

[thorn bird]

Aww hell!!...Sunny just go buy a tiger moth or chipmunk....end of worry!!

[overhere]

There is a difference - I worked as an instructor and charter pilot on similiar aircraft types - I noticed the difference when swapping seats between charters and instructing - given sometimes it occured a couple times a day.

On light aircraft the key things to watch for are:
1. Lookouts - especially when turning - depending on the aircraft types the blind spots or difficult to see spots maybe in different places on each side,
2. Centreline tracking during takeoff, approach and landing
3. Use of controls - especially make sure you're 100% comfortable with the location of the fuel controls, flap/gear levers etc - be especially careful with flap/gear as they will now be on opposite sides for you (you will now have to reach across the flap lever to get to the gear for example when you're use to doing the opposite)
4. Be careful with the engine controls - the mixture, pitch & throttle are all in a different orientation to what you're use to - the throttle will now be furtherest away and the mixture the closest (so dont pull back the control closest to you at TOD!)

Personally I always found the aircraft felt a bit different to fly from the opposite side.

Overall if you're use to doing it it becomes second nature on each side and you get use to orientating yourself everytime you do it. Would I do it for the first time with a PPL and a pax on board? Probably not.

As others have said, airlines put serious consideration into this and you need to be RHS endorsed as a Skipper to fly in that seat (despite the fact you came from it a few years before normally as a FO!).

[baswell]

For example, you can probably monitor your speed tape and body angle and reach down and adjust the tilt or gain of your radar at the same time and not look at the radar knob if you are familiar with the seat you´re in.
Speed tapes? Body angle? Radar!? You know we are talking sportstars and c172s here, right? :)

1/ You are the exception to the rule
Unlikely, with the amount of people I see switching, not to mention all the pilots I have let fly my aircraft from the right... Freshly minted guy last month, trained on Jabirus, never flown the SportStar before. I intervened to stop him over-flaring, but that was it. Had he had another couple of hundred hours on another type, I doubt he would have done that.

And that brings me to the following, many of us have been in the right seat of someone else's aircraft and unless you haven't been following along, you should have a pretty good idea what it looks like.

Bloody hell. All you left-hand seat nannies should run along and learn) to fly a Cub. That'll get your left and right brains coordinated!
Not to mention buying or building that single seat and getting in it with nothing more than the POH and some good advice from someone experienced on type. How will you ever be safe without dual time?

[LeadSled]

You are the exeption baswell. It must be because you are a fantastic Pilot. Better than the rest.

Greenie,
With all due respect, bollox!!
During my initial PPL training, I swapped around between throttle in the left hand, stick in the right, and vice versa, and tandem v. side by side, including tandem from the rear seat.

And so did just about everybody else at the time, there was no problem, because nobody told us there was a problem. So we just got on with it, so that by the time you got the PPL, you had already flown all the club aircraft.

Tootle pip!!

[MACH082]

You guys advocating how easy it is are the guys who fly light aircraft.

Yes, it's pretty easy to fly a small light aircraft from either seat.

It gets more challenging as the weight and speed increases. You don't get as much time to get it right.

They are also far more finicky and much less forgiving.

The seat for me is the difference between rolling it on, and planting it into the deck :cool:

[Creampuff]

Sunny

Unless I were a qualified instructor with authority to let unqualified persons manipulate the controls of an aircraft, I’d not let an unqualified person manipulate the controls of an aircraft of which I’m qualified to be PIC.

If my DIL has no current medical certificate, I’d be surprised if my DIL is qualified to manipulate the controls of an aircraft.

If my DIL is not qualified, looks like I’m PIC. If I’m not a qualified with authority to let unqualified persons … looks like I shouldn’t be letting my DIL manipulate the controls.

Where someone’s anus happens to be positioned in an aircraft is irrelevant to the prohibition on manipulation of controls by unqualified persons. The location of an anus before or after an accident, and the qualifications of the human of which it was a part, may be relevant to an accident investigation and insurance claim.

[MakeItHappenCaptain]

Most CAR 217 organisations will have a training program, certification and currency requirements to permit flight from the RHS.
Instructors have a dedicated sequence prior to starting the main body of their training.
It really isn't that hard, but why is Pvt flying any different to Awk of Chtr (apart from PPL's usually not as current or experienced as Operational CPL's)?

Yes I said usually. Untwist your panties, kiddies.:rolleyes:

[Jack Ranga]

This is funny stuff :D Keep up the good work :ok:

[Arnold E]

Hmm, interesting thread this one, I have flown from the RHS for the last 15 years and in fact have an entry in my log book that says I am competent to fly from the RHS. I personally feel more comfortable flying from the right seat and and as I said have done so for a long time. I have also done all BFR/AFR's (since then) from the right seat. ( it did raise the eyebrow of the instructor the first time I requested that I fly from the right for the BFR). I am extremely right handed so that is why I do it. Since I started doing this I have only flown my own aircraft or tandems I have yet to confront the situation where someone says " you must fly this aircraft from the left side" will be interesting I guess.
Since I started doing this I have only flown my own aircraft or tandems
Actually not quite true on reflection, I have flown a couple of customer aircraft from the right.

[jas24zzk]

Not to mention buying or building that single seat and getting in it with nothing more than the POH and some good advice from someone experienced on type. How will you ever be safe without dual time?

I had to go check my engineless logbook on this one.... 9 single seater types to my name...all signed off. Getting it off and back on again is all you needed to demonstrate for the signature. All very dangerous stuff really :uhoh:

The hardest part of seat switching, is teaching your other hand to fly. With over 400 hours gliding I decided to take up power and had to learn to fly with my left hand. My instructor nearly died laughing when i yelled at my left hand for it not doing what I wanted it to with the required finesse. It didn't take long to teach it tho...


Believe it or not, some people really do have a problem in flying from the 'wrong' seat, I know a guy that 3 of us spent a heap of time with trying to get him comfortable from the right. he never made it, but then turned around and did a taildragger ticket. Go figure.

Flying a 737 from the 'wrong seat' might be a lil harder tho, due to the abovementioned 'relocation' of items....a whole lost more of them.