Have we got officer training the right way around? [Archive]

kbf1

17th Dec 2000, 17:33

A thread on this forum about JNCO pilots has a crack at jnr officers for lacking any common sense. This got me thinking about taking a guy off the street, putting him through 12 months at RMAS and granting him a commission. This is followed by 6-12 months of professional training before a first command appointment. Through this whole process each YO is taught about their responsibility as leaders in a very "sterile" world where you are expected to lead and people just naturally follow. When the time comes for the first posting the reality is very different, you turn up, shut up, and listen to what your SNCOs tell you to do (if you have any sense). While you may find yourself taking decisions and running the admin in effect you are quietly following your SNCOs, and making mistakes. No wonder JNCOs don't have much time for YOs.

My thought process then was this; would it be of any benefit to do a short course at RMAS for say 12 weeks, 6 months or so in a unit/pl as an OCdt and then the remanining 36 weeks at RMAS with a taste for reality to put the training into perspective? Or do we only commission men who have spent 1-3 years in the ranks first? Or do we carry on doing what we currently do and hope the YO has the sense not to take on too much too soon? Would this work in any other service than the army perhaps (bearing in mind the RN do something similar in the Dartmouth Trg Sqn)

Thoughts and opinions please.........

murphy

17th Dec 2000, 17:50

Its not that JNCO's don't have much time for YO's, if they just did what you say and learn from their SNCO's everything would be fine.
Unfortunately they are told time and again that they should 'Lead,lead, lead' whilst at Sandhurst.
This leads to them thinking that they should be capable of doing everything, and knowing everything their SNCO's do.
The Officers who command the most respect from their sub-ordinates are the ones who admit they are fallible, and are prepared to learn...slowly.
I personally only know of a slack handful around the Corps who don't do this, but they are tarnishing the rests good name.
'Take 'em round the back for a swift rebrief the rest of you!!!'
....and remember, Officers are taught drill, tactics, weapon handling skills by other Officers at RMAS.........Oh no, thats right, its good old Tommy Atkins doing the teaching!!!

[This message has been edited by murphy (edited 17 December 2000).]

Vortex_Generator

17th Dec 2000, 18:20

As a jaded old RAF SNCO, I feel that YO/JO's are no longer listening to us. The trust seems to have gone and they appear to view us with suspicion. I have no idea why, has the teaching changed at IOT or is it that SNCOs are no longer held in the same high regard as they used to be? I also feel that the two year tour for officers doesn't help. It means that they rarely suffer the long term consequences of their decisions, leaving us to pick up the pieces and watch the wheel being re-invented time and time again.

Maybe one possible solution would be a system similar to the civil police; everyone starts at the bottom with a fast track system for those with the right qualifications/aptitude. It's not an ideal solution but it would at least give everyone an insight into life at the grass roots. Tour lengths increased to three years may also help.

By the way, a lack of common sense is certainly not a trait exclusive to jnr officers!

PaulDeGearup

17th Dec 2000, 19:39

I've always thought that RAF OT for aircrew was exceptionally odd; take a whole bunch of young people and teach them leadership 'til its running out of their ears. Send them through flying training and bang in even more leadership training en route, then finally release them on to a squadron with not a sole to lead!

Little wonder aircrew are so stroppy. :) :)

PurplePitot

17th Dec 2000, 19:53

I stand to be corrected on this but I believe the Germans put all of their aircrew applicants into the ranks for twelve months from wence they then go on to flight school etc. This gives people a chance to see what you are made of and also allows the w*****s to be thinned out before getting anywhere near an aircraft. If they fail flight school or fail to get selected they have to continue in the ranks for another 24 months as a PFC. I suspect this approach would wipe a few smiles off a few faces....

PFL

17th Dec 2000, 22:11

PurplePitot, I believe you are right in that, at least it was the case 5 years ago. It also applied to their fast jet crews, I'm led to believe that they even had some JNCO widow maker pilots ... wouldn't give that one to an officer!

bluntie

17th Dec 2000, 23:52

Vortex_Generator, hear, hear. I agree entirely. The only good ones are the ones who listen and not the ones who jump in feet first and leave us SNCOs to sort out the mess they leave behind.

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Two lorry loads of paperclips, actually!.

Nil nos tremefacit

18th Dec 2000, 00:25

In my last tour as a JO, had I followed my SNCOs example, I would have PVR'd and played computer games for nine tenths of the working day. His immediate Cpl had PVR'd first and was slightly less interested!!!! All the work was done by holding officers between branches, Court Martials, injuries etc!!! The best thing about the 'men' was that most of mine weren't - at least the odd 20'ish girls made for a pleasant working environment. As for leadership..........

JimNich

18th Dec 2000, 01:37

Can't say I've had first hand experience of IOT but the lads who've just returned all say that current teaching at Cranditz is to "under no circumstance trust or relinquish any authority to your SNCOs whatsoever, they'll only stab you in the back".

Recent experiences have lead me to believe this might well be true.

bad livin'

18th Dec 2000, 02:20

Vortex Generator - I can tell you that as a YO I have learned more about the air force from talking to SNCO's and Regt Flt Sgt's in a week than I did in 6 months at IOT. Jim Nich - that's actually not true, but there is far too little emphasis given (i think) to the point made before - that the SNCO's have seen and done it all a thousand times.

kbf1

18th Dec 2000, 02:42

So it appears to me the concern from the floor is that YOs aren't listening to the SNCOs as much as they should and that there is little enough by way of practical leadership in the RAF for YOs to get their teeth into.

The question then is what do we do about it? I would still be interested to hear thoughts on a period of working alongside the jnr ranks while still in officer training. Will it solve the credibility gap and instill trust in the SNCOs or the desire to listen?

bogey dope

18th Dec 2000, 03:18

Whether you listen to an SNCO or a JO/YO depends on similar criteria - experience,knowledge and credibility in the field or topic involved. 'Time in' is only an indicator of experience, and experience is not a poor substitute for knowledge. Credibility is lost when you fail to appreciate when you are reaching your bluffing zone. It was once said: good judgment comes from experience and experience comes from bad judgment.

Monkeyspanker

18th Dec 2000, 03:55

well put bogey, these snco's talk good engineering and their hot air keeps the crew room warm. if they got off there hairy fat arses and had a look a there counterparts on civy street they may change their brainwashed attitudes. your rank i might add (snco) is does not even equate to junior management. wake up stop smelling so much coffee!

Vortex_Generator

18th Dec 2000, 23:10

NNT, there are poor SNCOs just the same as there are poor everything else. Don't judge us all by that one example.
Bad livin', pleased to hear it.
Monkey, either you are a complete wind up merchant or your monica does you justice!!!

PFL

19th Dec 2000, 00:02

No.

Edmund Blackadder

19th Dec 2000, 01:39

Jim Nich,

You do talk some complete cr#p sometimes. One of the things that is taught well at IOT is that an experienced SNCO will save your bacon more than once. However remember that many of the SNCOs in your part of the world have less experience than a virgin on a desert island. Mutual respect is the key and in the vast majority of cases is there.

Does anyone think that a combined IOT would work before splitting up into the specialist areas?

Wibble

Ed

Helmut Visorcover

19th Dec 2000, 01:59

It makes sense that if we guide and advice properly when the YO is at an impressionable age then it would be hoped that we reap the rewards when they arrive at a proper command appointment. I thought that was one of the duties of a SNCO? What say you jeep?

It's too easy sometimes to slag off the youngsters but unless guidance and advice is offered constructively (and taken as well!), the junior officer will keep the opinion in his head that the 'Mafia' are not to be trusted. (But you can't make a Venus de Milo out of a pile of 5h1t unfortunately)!

Paul Wesson

19th Dec 2000, 02:39

When my dad did Bomb Aimer training in Canada during the war everyone on the course was an aircrew cadet. At the 'grad', taken by a Flt Lt, the boys were told whether or not they were to be commissioned or were to be SNCO aircrew. My dad found himself as an APO whilst guys he'd just done the course with were Sergeants. Apparently there were some serious sense of humour failures....

JimNich

19th Dec 2000, 02:42

Ed,
as I quite plainly stated (not plainly enough obviously) "I have no first hand experience of IOT whatsoever". I was merely recounting what I'd heard from a number of sources and I apologise to those IOT instructors who strive to give their students as balanced a view of the service as they can, however:

1) There's no smoke without fire.
2) Yes, of course there ARE bogeymen out there and any student coming out of IOT SHOULD beware of blindly following or believing everything they are told but they disregard everything out of hand at their peril.
3) Ed, yes I do talk crap at times, I'm renowned for it but you protest too much. Can you honestly tell me that every Officer you knew who's served or is serving at IOT is a concientious, well balanced individual who will bring out the best in their students (if so I stand corrected).

Anyway, as has quite rightly been pointed out, there's good and bad on both sides of the fence and there's no substitute for experience. The purpose of IOT is to prepare people to lead and I'm not knowledgeable enough to suggest how they might otherwise do that ("man's gotta know his limitations"). What I do know is that the communications gulf between commissioned and non-commissioned is widening and that SNCOs all over are becoming increasingly frustrated that no-one seems to be listening to them (and yes I realise this feeling isn't just restricted to SNCO level).

Officer training is the most important course the RAF runs simply because the people in charge are all Officers, IOT is naturally where their standards and opinions are formed. Therefore the state and shape of the Service can be directly related to the end product of this vital training evolution.

Case for the prosecution rests.

kbf1

19th Dec 2000, 16:20

I am glad you said what you did Helmut becuase I fear not every SNCO thinks the same way you do. When I first arrived on a sqn the WO2 QHI did nothing but rip the piss out of me for not knowing anything, especially when it came to sqn things that I just wouldn't know coz I had only been there a week. He thought it was hilarious to set me up and watch me make a prat of myself. Thankfully there were a couple of NCOs who would pull me back from making some hideous mistakes that would have landed me in it that I had been well and truely stiched up with. That made me suspicious of SNCOs and it took a while to develop a good relationship with my current SSgt (TA). It is a shame that my views were tainted slightly by one man, though I'm not 22 anymore and as nieve as I was then. I was taught 2 things, 1. lead, lead, lead, 2. trust your NCOs. Pity that the world isn't a perfect sphere. however...I digress.

Edmund, I am interested in your idea of splitting up IOT. I suspect that might not work so well in CCC, but opinions sought.

OilCan

20th Dec 2000, 07:20

kbf1...theres good and bad in all walks of life.

Your WO2 was indeed an ar$e, but I'm sure you've come accross some of your commisioned brethren who can be equally abusive.

Make a judgement on the individual, and not on the badge he wears or what mess he eats in.

I'm sure your flying outfits are similar to ours in that 'what goes around, comes around' - and hopefully you'll have the opportunity to pay him back someday. :)

As for splitting IOT - not keen..

To be farmed out to a unit as an OCdt smacks a little of a YTS scheme, not only open to abuse by some (on both sides), but also mark you out as an 'oddity' to everybody, and hence defeat the very objective your trying to achieve. The continual 'hosting' would also be a burden on active units.

I suspect the hierarchy would also be against it. Its easier for the DS staff to work with 'untained malleable minds' than to counter the real world. I'm sure those that have come from the ranks found it better to 'zip it! - and keep schtum' :rolleyes:

On the other hand, I kinda like the sound of the German system - less 'malleable minds' might help to reduce some of the clap trap 'do as I say, not as I do' attitudes that persist in some of these places - producing a better equiped product at the end.
How many JOs spend the first 6 months relearning how to do things the proper/real way?

and...

Why is it, that some of the best officers are the ones who don't always do it by the book, and can say "Pi$$ off!" every once and a while. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

YakYak

22nd Dec 2000, 17:31

I was told that you should listen to NCOs, but not too much as they would attempt to undermine your authority. Apparently, this stems from a bitter resentment of having people younger than they are in charge (eh??)

Thing is, I did my best to make friends with my squadron Flt Sgt, and learned more from him than (dare I say it) my Flt Cdr.

After recent mingling with both YOs and NCOs at my bro's stn, I think that were I ever tempted to go back again (only after a cash-flow injection into the system) - I would head for the NCO aircrew route. It stems from a deep-rooted hatred of being forced to wear a suit to breakfast.

Nil nos tremefacit

23rd Dec 2000, 02:39

As an officer, the truth is that you are never forced to wear any form of clothing. Common sense tells you what is appropriate for the occasion. The best rule of thumb is, when in communal accommodation, to dress upwards as that is less likely to offend anyone. In the WOs and SNCOs Mess the standards are frequently higher than in an Officer's Mess, some would say invariably higher.

Tell me Yak Yak, what would you wear for breakfast, bra and knickers, see through nightie, dressing gown, nothing..? Fine in a private home, but not everyone wants to see your t*ts over the Marmite sandwiches.

It's nice to know that IOT is still trying to train JOs to adopt a standard that is acceptable to everyone. No matter whether you split your training at the beginning or train officers from the start, standards of behaviour separate leaders from followers.

[This message has been edited by Nil nos tremefacit (edited 23 December 2000).]

Out Of Trim

23rd Dec 2000, 06:09

There is nothing more dangerous than a junior Officer with a map!

Q/Why are Flying Officers like Lighthouse's in a desert?

A/ They're as bright as f*ck but, totally useless!

Seriously.. All young Officers can learn something from SNCO/JNCO's at times and shouldn't dismiss their greater experience lightly.. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/cool.gif

Klingon

23rd Dec 2000, 15:17

As an ageing SA officer who came through the ranks, I have always felt that YO's should be told that wisdom and intelligence is not given out with the commissioning scroll. By all means listen to what others have to say but use that information intelligently, no matter what rank you get to be. I am constantly amazed at JO's who get promoted and suddenly appear to inherit the wisdom and insight of Solomon. Having done little to earn the promotion, other than having potential and time on their side, how come they now have all the answers?

Nil nos tremefacit

23rd Dec 2000, 16:12

My memory might be a little wrong, but I recall being told by a number of WOs that part of their brief was to guide and train JOs.

The strength of many units, when I was young, lay in the quality of the WOs. Men like Bernie Lawton, SWO at Marham in my youth, were worth more than a dozen commissioned sproglets when it came to getting the job done.

The Officer's Mess/WO and Sgts Mess exchange evenings were/are fantastic value for sorting a few things over the odd beer.

If you want to do well at secondary duties, get a good NCO as your deputy and you will have a much easier time. I used to run sports clubs and twice good SNCOs have made my clubs the best in the RAF at their sport. They even used to put me in the team for the RAF and Joint Service championships (those who know my sylph like physique will have wondered at how I got to represent a command 3 times in international military tournaments!).

Anyone who doesn't take well meaning advice from his/her SNCOs is destined to make his own mistakes. Personally I think it's nice to learn from someone else's.

YakYak

23rd Dec 2000, 17:38

Nil nos,

You go out of your way to be obnoxious and offensive. I appreciate that you are God and I often fear for my immortal soul when I occasionally offend your sensibilities. However, I feel it may be my position (albeit as a brain-dead infant with all the experience and wisdom of a garden slug), to inform you that there are several standards of dress between underwear and a suit. But you knew that of course - because you know everything. I was just jogging your memory.

private s. baldrick

23rd Dec 2000, 21:27

Dear YY,

you of course have never posted an obnoxious reply, based on your vast experience - have you?

YakYak

23rd Dec 2000, 22:55

Ah yes, the Monstress. You - in my humble, inexperienced, depraved and misguided youthful opinion, are even more obnoxious and unkind than your husband.

I don't know everything, true. Do I profess to know everything? No. Do I perform character assasinations on those younger than myself (such as Rusty) when they get their facts wrong? No.

Do I profess to know SOMETHING? Yes, and for some reason that irritates you a great deal. When I wish to I contribute opinions - but for some unknown reason my opinions are automatically inferior to yours. I am in a position to give advice to those such as Rusty and TimC who are going through selection, because I have been there and done it. I've not investigated any Chinook crashes or fought in any wars, but I have learned lessons in my 18 years - I've not been locked up in a box my whole life you know.

The truth is that although I don't have as much experience as you I certainly have some, and there are some on this site who accept that. The pair of you, however, seem to be on some sadistic little quest to discredit, insult, and undermine me. Perhaps an unfortunate incident in your respective teenage years gave you this bitter and twisted outlook towards youngsters who dare to speak without being spoken to. I don't know.

It's common knowledge we dislike each other. Just remember it is not my FAULT that I am only 18, and you should not interpret youth as a character fault.

(My apologies to the originator of this thread, now I've had my say everyone can get back to the original topic).

kbf1

24th Dec 2000, 01:20

Mistress, I have a serious agenda here in as much as I want to use this discussion to develop my thoughts on pre RMAS training for those going onto the TA commissioning course. I should be greatful if you would start another thread if you have anything to say about individuals who post on this site.

Nil nos tremefacit

24th Dec 2000, 06:26

kbf1 - there is indeed a serious agenda here.

I am deeply saddened to think that the reason someone should not wish to be an officer is that they do not want to dress in a certain style. Is this what today's youth have come to?

Irony, I am afraid, is wasted on someone as young and immature as YY. You, however, do know better.

The attitudes of today's teenagers are very relevant to commissioning TA officers. I was once an Officer Cadet in 5RRF (HQ Coy, formerly the 'Dirty Warwicks', Monty's old regiment). We still had standards, as did our SNCOs.

Now, I'm not obnoxious, as YY, and perhaps yourself, might think. Indeed I value YY's opinions on things she does know about - recent selection procedures, Cranditz rules etc are by definition her forte. I'm so old that I had my shirts ironed, my shoes cleaned, my bed made and a cup of tea with my wake up call. Indeed the last shirt I wore before my wedding day was ironed by my batting staff. That's when we were real officers (I could really dilate a long time on this issue).

If you want an opinion, forged in the furnaces of the post-Cold War era, it is this. From the day that an officer begins his or her training, he should be treated and behave as such. I made mistakes, most of which I learnt from first time, but the odd one or 2 have been round a few times.

YY misunderstands something quite critical. I know things have changed, but when an officer, in the Mess, attends breakfast, he/she is served by men or women who may be his/her juniors in rank. (When I was a living in Mess member the stewards were SAC/LACs.) As such, at that early stage in the morning, the officer is on show as a leader. If the steward is smartly turned out, shoes polished, white jacket starched and trousers pressed, why should he respect the officer in a 'shell suit' or jeans? The answer of course is that, whether he does or not, he shouldn't. I'm afraid that, for living-in officers, the show must go on. YY, in her 7 short weeks at Cranwell, clearly didn't hoist this one on board.

Likewise in the evenings, when I was first commissioned, the bar staff were serving personnel with ranks up to Sergeant. Drinking to excess is fine, but the man behind the bar reports everything to his mates down the line. The mess batting staff do the same.

We had an 'officer' who used to have a plastic sheet fitted to his bed because he got so drunk he couldn't contain himself. He was banned from the bar for his excessive drinking. He could, however, still tie his tie at breakfast. Ultimately he was chopped because his credibility was gone.

YY, I was young once. I made lots of mistakes, indeed I still do. I have learnt from most of them. I have, I believe, read every one of your posts. You really do not have as much experience as you believe. You have been deliberately rude to engineers, junior ranks and others. I am never wilfully rude or obnoxious, it just seems to happen! :)

The matter of officer training is very, very important. I believe that the RAF should reflect society, but that those who are fortunate enough to be commissioned should view themselves as the elite they are. An educated elite will recognise that, in the structure of the armed forces, the SNCOs are critical because of their knowledge and experience. Being elite does not mean being aloof (one of my early mistakes was an arrogant assumption that I could always be right - corrected very quickly, over a few beers, by a group of Chief Techs).

Merry Christmas.

[This message has been edited by Nil nos tremefacit (edited 24 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Nil nos tremefacit (edited 25 December 2000).]

TheWelshOne

24th Dec 2000, 13:13

Standards Chaps!

We had the normal SNCO/Officers xmas exchange drinks in the Off' Mess last week. I was appalled to find out that this one was to be in working dress or casual; ok it was straight after work but it was interesting to note that ALL SNCOs got changed into civvies - there was not a chevron,crown or prop in sight. But as the SNCOs pointed out, they were disgusted that the majority of aircrew were still in their 'working overalls', and remained in their greens till the bitter end.

Ok we still drank lots of beer and had a laugh but there has to be some standards kept. So aircrew can now wear their overalls all night long in the bar - great but why.
I can understand it straight after work, but the 1900 is a fair cut off point.

It comes down to one reason - lazyiness! If you cannot be bothered to get changed that's fine. But why are we bothering with all this IOT suit-wearing crap if aircrew only have to wear overalls - maybe it's glued on when they leave Cranwell.

So I'll get off my rocking-horse now. All I want to say is there is a time and place to wear your 'overalls' chaps. Your 'wings' will still be there in the morning when you jump in to your washed and pressed overall - now please dont tell me you slept in it as well last night - Aaahhh......

Merry Christmas Everybody, and I hope Santa brings all aircrew a Matalan shopping voucher, heard they do a great line in crimpoline trousers!

FJJP

24th Dec 2000, 14:30

Nil Nos

An exceptionally well reasoned and historically accurate post! In this day and age, I'd almost forgotten that we used to have such standards and facilities - the accountants have turned the Royal Air Force into RAF plc, which has led to the loss of many of the finer traditions of the Service.

On top of that, the new generation shift in attitude towards tradition coupled with their loss of respect for the more experienced and those authority figures (such as the Police, and so on), has meant that our Lords and Masters have had to lower entry standards. Those teaching at IOT, and those setting the syllabi, are now of the newer generation that do not value the older traditions; the tendency, therefore, is to change the content to reflect the latest trends.

The WelshOne

In the Fast Jet world, most of the guys are working under a lot of pressure, with not enough hours in the day. They like to unwind, especially after night flying (which is one of the more stressful types of flying).

Another important aspect, and a consequence of this shrinking Air Force, is that there are many fewer aircrew around and about - indeed, many on base never see a flying suit from 1 week to the next. It is important, therefore, to remind them what they are there for, hence the fact that most COs encourage their crews to wear flying suits all the time.

To Whom It May Concern...

Please don't get personal and vitriolic in the threads - it is unpleasant to read and detracts from the valuable views that many of us look forward to reading. A number of times I have got mad and found myself typing some red hot posts; however, on re-reading before transmission down the wire I realised that they would have contributed little. Banter is good fun, vitriol is a total turn-off.

Besides, politeness costs nothing....

Merry Christmas, everybody!

STANDTO

24th Dec 2000, 14:44

It is many years isnce I went thro Cranwell but a lot of what has been said in these pages is true. I don't think anyone honestly knows what the ideal solution is. I remember holding at St Athan and Whitehall whilst injured on IOT - I was an oddity theen so things haven't improved. Bottom line is, the job sometimes forgets why it is there, which at the end of the daty is to turn out aircrew who can ultimately deliver the goods. Everyone else is merely there to support that activity

Klingon

24th Dec 2000, 14:48

The children throwing their teddies out of the cot seems to be as aresult of frustration brought about because of a confusion of identities. A heirarchy needs to be enabled in any social or working environment, its called management structure. Historically such structure was created by the survival of the fit,fast or furtive; today we just promote the apparently most educated but not necessarilly the wise.
Training others can only be done by those with the relevant experience. Look at most IOT Flt Cdrs and you will see some that they have only just completed one or two tours out of training. How can they possibly be handing down pearls of wisdom to our YO's? Our Airships need to have good long look at the tree-hugging philosophies that have been introduced in the past few years. Red cards or what?
I have done all the Sgts/O Mess bit, and the squadron end of week drinkies with the groundcrew. Some guys I have liked and some I wouldn't trust with my empty glass. Never has that choice been based on what uniform or rank he/she was sporting. Get real guys, we have job to do and we all need to identify how best we can contribute. Any manager who thinks they have all the best ideas had better get the early retirement speech ready.

YakYak

24th Dec 2000, 15:53

Klingon,

Some IOT Flt Cdrs whilst I was there hadn't even done the full IOT.

Now that did seem odd.

Capt PPRuNe

24th Dec 2000, 16:49

http://www.pprune.org/images/warning.gif

Just a head bashing excercise really as it's almost Xmas but quite a few of you on this thread appear to be escalating the abuse to an unacceptable level.

Now me, I like the quiet life and some of you are causing me grief by being just that bit too aggressive, abusive and personal and causing me to get email from people who are getting quite offended by some of the language and tone of what is being debated here.

I have to go to work on Xmas day and I won't get back home until 2nd January and I do not want to find WW3 has broken out on this forum and my mailbox full of complaints or heaven forbid letters from lawyers on behalf of persons aggrieved by somthing that has been said on here in the heat of the moment.

So, seasons greetings to you all and a bit of goodwill from the rest of you will do us all some good.

In a Scouse accent Calm down... calm down... calm down! Arrright?

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Capt PPRuNe
aka Danny Fyne
The Professional Pilots RUmour NEtwork

[This message has been edited by Capt PPRuNe (edited 24 December 2000).]

TheWelshOne

24th Dec 2000, 17:03

FJJP

Ok, as SNCOs are there 'for' the aircrew, then they should get the green light to come into their bar next time in their oily overalls. It will remind us of what real SNCOs do as well.

Im having a dig at this one evening; looking round the room that night, a fair proportion of our 'Men in Overalls' stayed within their own circle of winged brethren - must be an indentity thing - probably something to do with IOT hosting circles and an inablity to talk about anything other than flying.

over

The Mistress

24th Dec 2000, 18:33

Thank you Danny. Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and Robbie.

PS I LOVE the snowmen on the header.

[This message has been edited by The Mistress (edited 24 December 2000).]

bluntie

24th Dec 2000, 20:05

This is a most interesting thread. (apart from the abusive replies). I heard a very disturbing story recently. An SAC was up in front of his flight commander for some misdemeanor or other. Once in the office and before the flight commander could speak, the SAC said words to the effect of "understand one thing. I respect you as my boss, but I will not call you sir!. It is outmoded and just because you're an officer shouldn't mean that you are my superior!." When the training unit concerned was approached it came to light that this individual had been charged a number of times during training but they weren't chopped because bodies were needed!. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/eek.gif

That's the problem, not how to train recruits, but the general attitude of todays youth. Can the RAF adapt to that?.

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Two lorry loads of paperclips, actually!.

STANDTO

24th Dec 2000, 21:55

............as you can see from the above, I also did not learn to type very accurately on med holding - as the 1988 BOB at home day order at St Athan would have proven if I hadn't managed to erase it just before I went back to Cranwell so someone else had to do it

FJJP

25th Dec 2000, 00:22

The WelshOne

Point taken. I can only apologise for my fellow flight-suited brethern who stuck in a group and who were too ignorant to act as hosts and 'spread themselves around'. I have always had a tremendous working relationship with the guys who fix wot I broke! I have had nothing but respect for the tradesmen with whom I worked, whatever the rank. After all, they are experts in their own field, as am I.

Many times on det have we quaffed many ales, rolled home together and made sure we ended up in the right rooms. Many times have I been the worse for wear to be fat fingered by the lads who had an axe to grind - and I agreed with many of their viewpoints. It's called teamwork; neither can survive without the other, and I have found that by treating people like human beings, regardless of rank, the treatment is reciprocated and a damn good time is had by all.

Merry Christmas, my friend. Have a good New Year. Over!

kbf1

25th Dec 2000, 00:35

Nil nos, I think you know me well enough by now to understand that I might well disagree with you, but I don't fall into the realms of personal insult. I just don't want a thread that I started for a serious reason to degenerate into a slanging match between individuals no this forum. I say again, if you have something to say about an individual, no matter who you are, then please say it somewhere else. I think Danny has made a more than fair point on this, so I don't want to say any more on the issue.

Good point about the attitudes of the youth of today. In saying that, I have seen on a couple of occaisions this year adults who should know better throw their teddy out of the pram and threaten to leave. My SSgt is quite happy to oblige them (i.e. call their bluff) and they soon back down. I think the attitude of "vocation" has left. People seem to be joining the forces for purely selfish reasons and not just to serve their country, or community. Any thoughts on what can be done to turn this attutude around?

Wishing you all a merry Christmas!

Pep Tilbud

25th Dec 2000, 14:56

Nnt,
By all means consider yourself Elite if it helps, but please don't assume that all SNCO's are not part of your elite group because they are uneducated and haven't got an 'A' level or degree between them, this is not necessarily the case,within the service I'm in, frequently SNCO's hold similar or better academic qualifications to the Elite with whom they work, (and probably command whilst in the same aircraft.)
Therefore your Elitism is a state of mind you're were born with or had instilled in you at school or Officer Training.

[This message has been edited by Pep Tilbud (edited 25 December 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Pep Tilbud (edited 25 December 2000).]

Nil nos tremefacit

25th Dec 2000, 15:21

Pep Tilbud

I didn't invent the command structure, but it's principals are established and accepted world wide. Even the Communist countries had an officer corps.

I know that there are well qualified NCOs out there, indeed I recall the RAF had a medical tech trade that required graduate entry (can't have techies on an equivalent rank structure to doctors!). You will note that I have been supportive of the idea that a good SNCO makes the junior officer. More than one or 2 senior officers have been well protected by competent NCO clerks.

When I referred to an 'educated' elite, I meant to include the officer/leadership training within that one word. Academic qualifications are not the only requirement of leadership in the modern forces, traditional command skills feature more. Indeed academic qualifications can be a hindrance in certain fast moving environments where the capacity to react quickly outweighs the need to have a long analysis of the situation.

To have been promoted through the junior ranks to SNCO requires a better than average competence in the individual's core skills combined with management/administration ability. What the various officer schools around the world define as leadership is not necessary to be a good SNCO. Those SNCOs who have the desire to join the 'elite' and have the necessary ability are encouraged to do so - I think about a third of my officer training course were from the ranks and their experience and service knowledge 'carried' many of us in the early days.

Before I became a TA Officer Cadet the nicest comment I had on my basic training report was that I would one day make a very good SNCO!

kbf1

25th Dec 2000, 17:15

NNT, as someone with an understanding of the TA then, how would you deal with the situation of training a soldier who was academically well qualified (one of my ptes is a solicitor, and he wants a spare time activity that doesn't involve lots of admin and management decision taking, but will progres through the ranks alongside men who in civilian life are tradesmen, factory workers, and some who are unemployed) alongside men who are less academically qualified? What in your experience would you do to make the training worthwhile and challenging to all levels?

Nil nos tremefacit

25th Dec 2000, 18:06

kbf1

You train everybody the same way initially. If you join as a private, you expect to be trained as one. I joined the TA after my first degree and as a release from my post-graduate professional qualification. Like your solicitor friend, I didn't want to take on additional reponsibilities that would detract from a very demanding course. I didn't want to be treated differently as a result of my qualifications.

Ultimately I was taken to one side and invited to join the Officer's Mess as an Officer Cadet. I still trained with the junior ranks in the evenings, but some of my weekends were organised on a different basis. If I was on a weekend with no officer training, then I would do my basic skills training as a Fusilier with the only difference being that when people shouted things at me they would prefix my name with Mr!

Had I opted to stay as a Fusilier, then that would have been that. No favoritism for qualifications. I doubt that your solicitor will be intellectually challenged by a lot of the training, but he will still have to be physically up with the lads. After a week wading through paperwork I used to find stripping down and cleaning an SLR quite relaxing. I was never bored because the role was so disimilar to everything that I did in the week.

If your solicitor is unhappy about mixing with the ranks then that is a personal problem. If he is a criminal practitioner the lads will be a cut above some of the people he represents on a daily basis anyway. If he's not a criminal practitioner he might even pick up a few clients. My experience was that when I was a Fusilier there was no animosity based on qualifications (although, as the son of a car-worker who'd lived in a 2-up, 2-down, I had the same social origins as the lads). Individuals socialised with those they were most at ease with in the NAAFI - if the 2 Coys I served in are anything to go by then you will have several other educated people who your man can relate to more easily than others. I used to drink with anyone.

BigBulge

25th Dec 2000, 21:19

Just something I heard a while back, so don't know how true it is:

The RAF, RN & Army have Dentists doing the same job in a very differing rank ranging from NCO, Jnr Off to Snr Off, resepectively.

If this is true (and maybe someone can shed some light on the issue), this should be (perhaps) ironed out the more tri-service we go. If not, why should a dentist in the Army be payed, and have considerable more benefits than one in the RAF????????

Again, this is only something I heard, but it certainly made me think about who actually deserves the respect - by rank... by trade... by experience.... ???

sarboy

26th Dec 2000, 01:08

Here in USA on exchange with the USCG. Much fewer Coastie officers are ex-enlisted than in the RAF. Also after 4 years as a Lt (O-3) they become eligible for promotion and are considered for Lt Cdr (whether they are a space cadet or God's Gift). Of course, space cadets don't get promoted, but when the USCG is short because of the air-line/civvy street pull (as now)... This year's pick-up rate was about 90%. Wow.

Credibility in rank doesn't have to be related to knowledge or experience (although it usually follows). It certainly will not come if as a superior (and nearly everyone is superior to somebody), you prove yourself unable to cope with your job, whether that is fixing stuff, flying it, looking after the welfare of those below you (or above you), or combinations of all 3. A training scheme designed around making sure people had a good idea of how to do a particular job before they are promoted (or posted) into it would surely be appropriate. If the sort of 'work-experience' roles of people holding awaiting training can be made meaningful, I think there is a lot to be learned.

Next thought - respect, and it seems to be in short supply. It goes up and down too. I was picked as an escort at a O's Mess BoB cocktail party once (Chivenor's last beofre the fixed-wings left). Not that chuffed I sought out my retired Gp Capt and his Mrs. He was the most charming, delightful old boy I've ever met who remenisced about being a founder member of 92 Sqn (which was disbanding as RAF Chivenor closed) and flying Spits. Everyone else from my escort group had got lost and the other guests all knew each other (farmers, councillors etc)

Old Boy "Tell me, do you SAR pilots keep a score on the squadron of which of you have picked up the most people?"

Wide-eyed me "Well, sir the number of people involved in each job can vary a lot, and we've got seats for well over a dozen."

Old Boy "Ah. We used to keep score, you know, but I lost count after 5."

And my Flt Cdr slipped up to get me out saying I'd done my bit and could leave the old boy to himself. I was quite happy, and I couldn't have cared less what rank he had been - I'd probably still have called him Sir if he'd retired as a Sgt pilot. You don't listen, you don't learn. Some people, though, have never learned how much they might not be learning, so anything that will teach them what educational resources might be out there has got to be a good thing. Respect.

JimNich

26th Dec 2000, 03:38

Respect is a funny thing though innit. I think about the people that I genuinely respect and have respected and I come to two conclusions:

1) Disrespect is instant (first impressions and all that, like Nil Nos's steward) and is very difficult to reverse.

2) Gaining respect isn't that quick, usually takes some time and certainly doesn't come with the job/rank/position, it is EARNT.

I believe one of the problems we have in the RAF is our itinerant Officer corp. How can they ever hope to achieve the respect IOT tells them they should demand when every two or three years Innsworth does its "musical Boss's" thing?

An ever changing face in the Boss's office becomes faceless after a while.

Sorry Nil Nos but I just think there's more to it than wearing starched collars to breakfast.

The Mistress

26th Dec 2000, 13:49

JimNich

I totally agree that it is the person inside the uniform, rather than the uniform that earns the respect.

My first introduction to the RAF was to work closely with an Air Commodore (years before I met Nil). There were just 4 of us in our section. This chap's nickname was "The B@st@rd" - given to him by his previous section. It was well deserved. He was always extremely well turned out and was incredibly polite to those he considered to be of equal or greater status. However, those of us who worked FOR him ... well that's another matter. In the 20+ years since then I have discovered several others with very similar attitudes. I've mentioned some of them on other threads Fortunately, in some cases, these people do eventually screw up. All the people they cr@pped on on their way up tend to have a field day kicking them on their way down. I know a few more who are just begging for it!

I don't let that cloud my judgement of all officers. I've also met some outstanding people who just seem to be like bright lights however they dress and whatever they are doing.

I totally agree that 2-way respect is the corner stone.

Gentleman Aviator

26th Dec 2000, 14:55

Merry Christmas All,

From memory,

1. At IOT, the cadet is taught to lead AND follow. To give AND receive legal Orders. Anyone not hacking those basics is politely 'let go'. Those who can hack it, who have the appropriate aptitudes are allowed to continue to Pilot training.

2. During Pilot training the JO is expected to learn how to safely captain his aircraft.

Should the individual have a personality that prevents him from interacting with Civilians, SNCOs, Airmen, JNCOs, JOs and SOs he should receive appropriate counseling, and if necessary, formal warnings.

Bear in mind that most 'experts' would have us believe that the fundamentals of personality are determined within the individual by the age of 7. As such, if you are an ar$e, the best chance of recovery is a Black & Decker to the cranium!

Sadly, due to the contractorisation of flying training, many young aircrew spend 3 or 4 years in the Military before getting the chance to interact with NCOs, JNCOs & Airmen. There should be little surprise if the JO is a little awkward at first.

ps. The last time I wore a suit to breakfast was 10 years ago at IOT. In the real world, a smart pair of trousers and shirt will normally suffice!