RAF Lodge?

[YellowBelly]

Always been a bit suspect about RAF mates working for a 'higher order' (knew a fundamentalist christian families officer who held a prayer meeting to rid a MQ of fleas - claimed it worked, but then anything is better than DHE apparently). Also know a few mates who owned up to being Masons. Did not think freemasonry was rife, but have since been told that there is an RAF Lodge. Anyone know if this is true?

[This message has been edited by YellowBelly (edited 17 April 2001).]

[Whossat Forrus]

Yes there is YellowBelly and we've marked your card.

[Paul Wesson]

Yep,

RAF Lodge dates from the First World War (as indeed do many military Lodges). The Lodge meets in London 4 times a year (I think). As with all Masonic Lodges the majority of members will be retired (you can be a Mason for your whole life), but there will be a number of serving members.

There is also a RAF (Warwickshire) Lodge which is peripatetic and meets in Masonic Halls close to RAF bases. Until recently (when a ban on meeting on military bases came into force) this Lodge used to then visit the nearby base. Most members are ex-RAF from days of yore. My friend Flt Lt Jim Pearson-Smith DFC, former President of 101 Sqn Association, was a Past Master of that Lodge (he was crew on an aircraft that sank the Tirpitz).

When I was at Brize the Master of the RAF Lodge was a member of 10 Sqn. There were at least 7 Masons amongst the Operations Wing staff at that time.

My own Lodge currently has a retired V-Force Sqn Ldr as Master. When I joined we were dominated by Engineers and it almost became a gathering of ex-Halton Apprentices ranked between Sqn Ldr and Gp Capt.

I know of a couple of AVMs who are Masons and I suspect there are more.

I don't believe for one moment that Masonic membership harms the service, and those who know me will note that I never gained any priviliges within the service as a result of my membership.

Hope this helps.

:)

[The Brown Bottle]

Not harm the service? A secret society who look after one another? No of course not. And my c***s a kipper. I've seen a guy sponsor someone more senior into the local funny handshake brigade. Once in, there were enough senior police officers at the top table to make it look like the local lodge every dining in night. Of course, how could the more senior chap not reward his sponsor? These chaps would often do pretty well anything to get promoted-so why not join the lodge. There'll be a herd of goats driven up me driveway tommorrow.....

[Samuel]

Love it TBB! Keep it up! If there were no benefits, than why join? To meet four times a year? Cobblers! I buried the result of an accident some years ago, and was amazed at the numbers of senior ranks laying the parsley on the coffin.Mind you, I was invited once, but respectfully declined.

[The Mistress]

Yaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaawwwwwwwwn

We had this discussion not too long ago on this Forum - the Sting/not in my back yard type thread - and much more recently on Jet Blast. Some of you chaps really ought to venture onto the other Forums a bit more often ;)

The bottom line is that there are good and bad in every walk of life. In an organisation as big as the Masons you are bound to get a few rotten apples. That doesn't mean ALL Masons are corrupt.

Likewise with the RAF. Some senior officers tend to use the 'old boy network' and look after their mates. Don't paint SAC Bloggs in the hangar with the same brush as Sandy Wilson, Peter Harding and Bill Wratten. SAC Bloggs may be a perfectly decent chap!

[Jackonicko]

Juvenile nonsense or deeply corrupt?

Either way, there's no place for freemasonry (or any other secret society) in a democratic society, let alone in its armed forces. Serving Masons should be exposed and sacked.

[The Mistress]

Lucky my old man's already left then, eh Jacko.

Oh, by the way, I thought the point of a democracy was the right to be, freedom to choose etc, rather than be dictated to by small minded bigots?????

[This message has been edited by The Mistress (edited 04 April 2001).]

[RubiC Cube]

So Jacko, why do journalists let politicians and their unelected advisors hide behind the facade of "a source close to the government said....."?

[Paul Wesson]

Jacko

The 'secret society' line of argument is typical of those who do not know nor seek to understand. If you used the words 'private club' in a less pejorative fashion the whole thing would seem as innocuous as it really is. I note that you and others, who might hold your hands up in horror at a racist or sexist statement, find it acceptable to condemn men and women, throughout the world and of all creeds and colours, because of the club or society they choose to belong to.

You base your opinions not on research, not on genuine knowledge, but on half truths and rumour. Although there are many books that seek to expose Freemasonry (the first came out in the eighteenth century), most are based on allegations against individuals or small grouips of people who others perceive to be Freemasons. I say perceive because one such book that I read devoted a whole chapter to the ranting of a small businessman who blamed his business failure on all the other businessmen in town who he didn't like. He assumed, but never offered any proof, that they were all members of the 'local lodge'.

If masonry is secret, how come you and others who condemn it are such experts? ;)

Either Freemasonry is a secret society, in which case you don't know of it's existence, or it is a very well known body. There is a massive head office in central London (with a museum open to the general public), there are buildings in every major town in the British Isles, the names of committee members are quite often available in local libraries and the names of many well known members trip off the tongue (Duke of Kent, Prince Philip etc.).

If you are any good as a journalist you should be well able to find out details of local lodges and who runs them. Your gripe is that they won't let you in unless you are invited to join (by 2 sponsors, not one as suggested above)! This is just like any other private club. Unless you are saying I can wander into a meeting of any local Chapel of the NUJ, watch the proceedings and report them back to others if I so desire. Incidentally the NUJ, of which you may or may not be a member, was notorious in the 70s for depriving people of their livelihood if they wouldn't toe the party line - presumably that's all right. Indeed I remember, coming from an industrial city, people in other industries, sacked for not joining the closed shop, people beaten up for voting against union officials and people not being allowed to work for the local council if they didn't agree to support the Labour Party (and they called themselves Brethren).

You also say that there is no place for secret societies/private clubs in a democracy. I say that, so long as the purpose of the club is not to subvert or overthrow that democracy, then there is no problem. If you've done any research, you will know that a Freemason's promise/oath includes the commitment to uphold the laws of any land in which he/she, for the time being, resides.

Whilst I accept there are get out clauses to all of the following, I would refer you to the European Convention on Human Rights:

Article 8

Everyone has the right to respect for his private and family life, his home and his correspondence.

(My private life includes club memberships.)

Article 9

Everyone has the right to freedom of thought, conscience and religion; this right includes freedom to change his religion or belief and freedom, either alone or in community with others and in public or private, to manifest his religion or belief, in worship, teaching practice and observance.

(I can observe my beliefs in private.)

Article 10

Everyone has the right to freedom of expression. This right shall include the freedom to hold opinions and to receive and impart information and ideas without interference by public authority and regardless of frontiers.

(The right which allows you to publish your ideas is the same one that allows me to hold my opinions.)

Article 11

Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests.

(I know that the Armed Forces can be excluded from this, but not every nation chooses to do so. I will associate, privately, with whomsoever I like.)

Article 14

The enjoyment of the rights and freedoms set forth in this Convention shall be secured without discrimination on any ground such as sex, race, colour, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, association with a national minority, property, birth or status.

(You will allow membership of the RAOB or Oddfellows, but not Masons.)

Article 17

Nothing in this Convention may be interpreted as implying for any State, group or person any right to engage in any activity or perform any act aimed at the destruction of any of the rights and freedoms set forth herein or at their limitation to a greater extent than is provided for in the Convention.

There you are Jacko, I can be a Freemason if I want and you can't stop me. :)

The first country to ratify the European Convention on Human Rights was the UK. The Convention is now part of the Scottish Constitution, the Northern Irish Constitution and the law of England and Wales

Your suggestion of exposing Masons and sacking them was one that Hitler and Stalin agreed with. Freemasonry was banned in all Communist countries. Hitler went the whole hog and not only sacked all Masons from all jobs, but seized all of their property, confiscated or destroyed all of their meeting places and consigned virtually all of Germany's Masons to the concentration camps where the majority died.

Hitler's reasons were the same as yours - he didn't want any 'secret societies' operating in the Reich.

LOL :)



[This message has been edited by Paul Wesson (edited 04 April 2001).]

[YellowBelly]

Paul - many thanks for your frank and honest views. To an extent, I agree that our 'fears' are probably based on ignorance and that not all Masons are seeking special privileges. I also agree with your comments on freedom of thought, religion etc. The main problems I have with HM Forces personnel being Freemasons is the potential impact on our clearly defined command chain (eg. A commissioned mason possibly being subordinate to an enlisted mason - surely not compatible with Service ethics, except on the sports field maybe) and its secretive nature (regardless of the Masonic Musuems and access to the names of the Grand Fromages, not many people go around shouting about their membership). Given these concerns, should Forces Masons not be required to declare their membership to their Forces chain of command?

The Mistress - so sorry to have repeated an earlier thread, I obviously missed it (may I recommend avoiding the left key on your mouse on such occasions, or getting out more)

[The Mistress]

I have free access at work and not a lot of work, how about you?

[YellowBelly]

I'm serving aircrew, therefore clearly suffering from over-stretch!

[BEagle]

Quite what it is that some people have against freemasons I don't know - and no, personally I'm not a mason, nor do I particularly wish to be.

I had a most revealing conversation with a serving officer who was - he didn't use to shout about it, but it was abundantly clear that far more charitable work is done quietly by freemasons than by those who oppose them. I can understand the fear that masonry could undermine the established rank structure, but is there any evidence to substantiate that it actually does??

[misterploppy]

Personally, I fail to see how a Cpl Master Mason 'Grand Arch Prince Naseem of the Golden Dog's Bollock' rolling up his trouser leg and putting a noose round the neck of say, a Wg Cdr Apprentice, presents any greater threat to the chain of command than a Sqn Ldr rugby player playing under say, a SAC team captain.

[Samuel]

I'm not quite sure Mr.P, what the latter has to do with the former! I should perhaps clarify my earlier comment in the light of what has been said by others. I have never found any evidence of Masonry affecting any aspect of Service life. It simply wasn't my scene. Having said that, I think a lot of rubbish has been presumed and discussed about the activities of Masons, and as someone has already pointed out, this discussion has been held the world over from time to time.My apologies to anyone whose fingers I may have broken in his attempt to establish my credentials!

[Jackonicko]

Were freemasonry just a harmless social club, I'd have no problem with it. But there is plentiful evidence of widespread corruption surrounding Freemasonry, and especially in the Police Force and the legal profession.

I'm sure that the majority of Freemasons are harmless enough, but the actions of a minority have been sufficiently worrying to make me want to be over-cautious on the matter.

I don't, incidentally, approve of closed-shops, nor of secrecy within (or secret membership of) Trades Unions. But Trades Unions are fairly transparent, and their aims and activities are generally open to inspection. But even a really well-run Trade Union has no place in the military, IMHO, although some similar organisation may be needed.

The idea that Human Rights legislation should be used to guarantee the freedom to indulge in Masonic activities is as mistaken as the belief that people should be free to engage in the incitement of racist violence, paedophile activities or any other socially unacceptable behaviour.

"Why do journalists let politicians and their unelected advisors hide behind the facade of "a source close to the government said.....?" Good question, but if a story's worth telling, and you are given it under certain conditions, then it's perhaps inevitable that Ministers will shelter behind the lobby system, unattributable briefings, etc.

Mr W, I particularly enjoyed your remark that "My gripe is that they wouldn't let me in unless I was invited to join". I'm not discerning or humble enough to pretend that I wouldn't want to be in any club which would have me as a Member - I'll accept almost any invitation. But not, ever, to the Masons - and I'd be quite offended if anyone thought that I was the sort of person who would accept such an invitation. I may be a low-down gutter journo - but even I have some standards!

[Gentleman Aviator]

Jackonicko. Your banter about 'plentiful evidence of widespread corruption'.

Where is this evidence? Any of it to do with military chaps?

GA

[misterploppy]

Samuel

I merely raised the Rugby Club as a social activity which also transcends rank barriers.

Jackonicko

"The idea that Human Rights legislation should be used to guarantee the freedom to indulge in Masonic activities is as mistaken as the belief that people should be free to engage in the incitement of racist violence, paedophile activities or any other socially unacceptable behaviour."

Steady on, old chap! It's a bit of a hyperbolic leap from handshaking and rolling up trouser legs to the KKK and child molesters!

Yours

Worshipful Bro. Ploppy (Not!)

[Paul Wesson]

Jacko,

I don't want to be the OCB of this thread, but feel that I must answer some of your points.

But there is plentiful evidence of widespread corruption surrounding Freemasonry, and especially in the Police Force and the legal profession.

As with a previous poster, I would ask you, a professional journalist and researcher, to come up with some of the hard evidence against both the police and legal profession. Do you know of an arrest/charge/release/dropping of charge that was specifically attributable to Freemasonry? Do you know of a case where Freemasonry influenced the decision of a Judge or jury? Could membership of the same golf club not be a reason for doing a favour, or do you consider it improbable that any business deal, dropping of charges etc could ever take place on a golf course?

but the actions of a minority have been sufficiently worrying to make me want to be over-cautious on the matter.

The number of Freemasons in the British Isles may be as many as 400,000. Even assuming a figure of 300,000, I am happy to accept that there will be some people who do not come up to scratch. To put this into perspective, the population of my home city, Coventry, is 300,000. A minority of them are criminals, rapists, paedophiles etc. Do you argue that you will never visit Coventry because a minority are bad. Should all people from Coventry have to identify themselves so that they can be expunged from the RAF? Would you not join a club in Coventry lest you were tainted? Frankly Jacko, you're talking boll*cks. To condemn a world-wide charitable body because there are a couple of bad apples suggests a narrowness of thought that I would only associate with a Redtop journalist (you're not Gary Bushell by any chance?)(Sorry Gary, I Love you really!)

The idea that Human Rights legislation should be used to guarantee the freedom to indulge in Masonic activities is as mistaken as the belief that people should be free to engage in the incitement of racist violence, paedophile activities or any other socially unacceptable behaviour.

The articles I selected were designed to show that there are freedoms that we are entitled to. Even a paedophile, rapist or whatever can claim the protection of Article 1 (Right to life), Article 3 (Prohibition of torture), Article 4 (Prohibition of slavery and forced labour), Article 5 (Right to liberty and security), Article 6 (Right to a fair trial), Article 7 (No punishment without law), Article 12 (Right to marry), together with the Protocols.

You compare the actions of Freemasons with socially unacceptable behaviour. Unnacceptable to who? I dress in a dark suit, add some ancient items of clothing, re-enact an arcane mediaeval ritual and go out to dinner with friends. This is anti-social? You live a weird lifestyle, Jacko. Do you think that the Sealed Knot should be banned? They dress in period clothing, re-enact bloody historic battles and go out with friends (they probably do favours for their mates as well!)

I do what I do, you do what you do. Nothing I have done as a Freemason has impacted on your life in any way whatsoever. I have not been party to anything that you would consider improper and I know of no-one who has.

The reason that the European Convention on Human Rights was passed was to protect philosophical minorities such as the Freemasons from the excesses of ignorant people like Communists and Nazis. If you had your way I believe that you would embark on the same line of treatment that Hitler reserved for Jews and Freemasons alike. You would purge us as Stalin and Mao did. You would drive us from our employment. Would you make us confess our sins as Torquemada did? Would you get our children to decry us as Pol Pot did? Would you encourage children to send their father's Lodge summons to the police? What technique would you use to compel Masons to identify themselves? Would you torture those who did not confess until they did?

You've already made it clear that you would deprive Masons of their livelihood for no other reason than that you have heard a few rumours that some Masons at some nebulous time did something that you disagree with. Remember the Jews in Lincoln and York were murdered because of a woodcut that showed (allegedly) Jewish men drinking the blood of St Hugh of Lincoln.

Martin Short's book, which I believe you have read, is in my opinion based on rumours and suppositions and pejorative statements. The idea that millions of Masons worldwide are sexual deviants because a man looked at the square and compasses and decided it reminded him of an open vagina is one such pathetic rumour peddled in that book!

I may be a low-down gutter journo - but even I have some standards!

Not in the quality of your research nor the reasoning of your arguments you don't.

[Lou Scannon]

It was once described as:
"The triumph of the mediocrity over the meritocracy."



------------------
Lou Scannon

[Laser Jet]

J/Nicko - I've enjoyed some of your postings in the past and even had a little exchange with you myself some time ago. This time I think you are way over the top.

Did a Mason bite you on the ankles when you were a small child or something? Your deepseated resentment is coming through my computer screen in waves. Each to their own.

Let's have some more of your fast jet stories, at least you know what you're talking about there. Possibly.

[Flatus Veteranus]

I thought everyone knew you write "BOAZ" in pencil on the top right hand corner of your 1369 and its as good as a Spec Rec!

------------------
presto digitate

[Adastral]

I hardly know where to begin! If it not for the fact that Jacko is probably scraping the bottom of the barrel for a "Freemasons in Service" Exposee, I would be much more scathing in my reply!

The fact that a bloody journalist can be so high and mighty beggers belief! I will, however, leave the coherent, reasoned arguments to Mr W - thank you.

The fact that Mr W's line of retort was so easily avoided simply adds fuel to the argument that we should not be trying to strifle a benevolent "secret" society - we need to be looking very carefully at the narrow minded biggots who scrawl for the tabloids.

In typically journalistic fashion, Jacko avoids dealing with the real issues in shades of gray and goes for the 'black and white' approach.

These idiots hide behind the anonimity of a newspaper, pushing out all sorts of rubbish in the name of democracy, when all they are trying to do is sell enough papers to justify their salaries.

How many public figures have been ruined over the years by the press? Whether sportsman, pop star or politician - noone is safe from them. Whether they deserved it or not, who made the press Judge, Jury and Executioner?

Freemasons?! You're barking up the wrong tree mate. The freemasons are a convenient and easy target for narrow minded fools when the real news has dried up. Unless the major editors and journalists are all freemasons then the conspiracy is not that deep. (And if they are all freemasons it only goes to show that there are some bad apples in every organization?!)

The press has far more power, and corrupting influence, than the freemasons will ever have. Only, your organization is not the easy target that freemasons are. How many politicians have tried to take the press on and where has it left them?

Self-regulation? What a joke! When has the press showed any real responsibility and self-control? Never, unless there was an alterior motive for it. I don't know what kind of reporter you are Jacko, but it patently doesn't involve any serious research.

Now, if you are going to sling mud then, as the Tories are so fond of saying (in paraphrase), let it have "substance" and not "spin".

[Dan Winterland]

Going back to the origianl theme of the thread, the danger for any organisation lies in someone being written up by a fellow Mason when they don't deserve it, and that person subsequently being given prmotion and a job they cannot cope with. This may help explain some of the more bizarre promotions we may have seen.

[STAN DEASY]

Have just got back from the local boozer,which is run by a mason. my father was a mason, I'm not.

PW's comments are well argued sensible and well balanced such that there seems to be little to keep the thread alive. Sadly it is irritation at Jackonickos inability to distinguish between genuine investigative journalism concerning military mismanagement and sensationalist non stories that keeps me awake.
Perhaps it will be Masonic Lesbian Wrens in the air slaughtering cattle next.(I trust that is a truly purple scenario)and even a hack like Jackonicko might get some column inches out of that.

[Whossat Forrus]

Entertaining thread this one, it's even better than listening to the 'hard done by souls' who put their own lack of success down to yet another Masonic conspiracy. I have had the good fortune to have served in the Royal Air Force as a pilot for almost 20 years including those halcyon days of UAS/BFT. I am also a Lewis, for the as yet uninitiated, the son of a freemason entitled to join at a much earlier age than that normally permitted. I grew up with freemasonry having a major influence on my life, learning tolerance, acceptance of others despite any perceived failings and above all respect for a system that does not willingly tolerate misdeeds of its own members. Perhaps society generally would profit from the principled guidance I have received over the years, giving less fortunate people a reason not to destroy the fabric of their own environment both physically and by the fear they plant into the minds of their more vulnerable neighbours. It is more often the fear of failing in the eyes of ones own peer group that encourages certain behaviour, particularly in deprived areas. Parents fail their own children because they do not understand themselves when behaviour has become inappropriate, and society fails itself because there is no structure for those who consider things to be wrong to turn to. If more people took to freemasonry perhaps the accumulated wisdom and genuine friendship one can find in all parts of The World may go some way to preventing the intolerable and entirely avoidable deprivation we witness today.

So what has this got to do with freemasonry and military service? I live quite happily by the codes of service life, sadly they are being eroded by a society that ever increasingly insists that our own attitudes and the way we conduct our affairs is not reflective of the society we purport to represent. We weaken our own leaders by making them fear their own decisions made on the now shaky ground of previous experience. Armchair experts crucify any error made in the field without incuring criticism of their often dubious analysis (Jacko!) and fewer and fewer young adults see value in service life of any form. It is often that I reflect that many of my own opinions and moral stances are not those of my own at all, rather a mixture of all those around me. I am considered by others (seen it in writing) to be a tolerant, fair and balanced individual, not the heroic dashing leader of men I would have liked to have been. I am rather glad of this as that is an underlying principle of the ancient society to which I belong. Freemasonry is not to be feared, those who join our ranks in order to effect pecuniary or 'other' gain are usually seen but a few times and resign with an all too obvious disappointment. There is no selection procedure other than a self imposed one. No one will invite you to join. Only those who seek to understand for themselves will stay. Freemasonry has given me the moral courage to stand by my decisions even if they have been unpopular, as well as the humility to accept when I am wrong. More importantly while everything falls apart around us all, and our leaders jump like frightened rabbits every time an unelected EU minister says boo, I can periodically spend time in a place were sanity prevails and the latest band waggon rolls past the outside of a locked door and we just ignore it.

[Jackonicko]

Frankly the subject is not important enough to me to be @rsed to dig through the morgue and quote specific cases. I don't claim or want to be an expert on Freemasonry. I'm a specialist aviation/defence writer, and that's where I do my research and work. I comment on the Masons in the Forces as an interested onlooker, not as a journo. I'm not remotely interested in covering the subject in print, nor that of lesbian nuns slaughtering cattle (but I'll have a pint of whatever you've been drinking).

Nor do I deny that there are some worthy chaps and notable names who are masons, and nor would I have them all executed (or whatever else I'm supposed to be in favour of). I'm not comparing Masons with child-molesters or Combat 18, I'm arguing from an extreme in order to make the point that Human Rights legislation can't be used to protect any behaviour (and especially not by an organisation which discriminates on the grounds of gender). There are plenty of honourable Masons out there, and I wouldn't want to be that offensive to them.

But I do think that membership of a secret society which has been tainted by the widely held suspicion of mild (and sometimes less mild) corruption is inconsistent with military or police service, and I'd rather see it eradicated from the law, too. I wouldn't want serving officers to be active in political parties, either, though I find that fractionally less worrying.

A quick word with the crime correspondent on one of the broadsheets reassured me that there is plenty of evidence of Masonic corruption, large-scale and small, with instances in recent criminal cases. Please don't make me spend time dredging through it - I'm told that there's plenty on the web, for and against, if you're that desparate to trawl through the "Yes he did"s and "No he didn't"s of the argument.

It's not a charity. It's not a golf club. There may be plenty of genuinely altruistic Masons who just want to give something back, but some other members regard it as a useful covert networking opportunity, and a legitimate means of ensuring self advancement and business success. Why else would you join, instead of joining the Rotary (now that's a charity) or the Golf Club (now that's a golf club)? It's not dangerous in civilian life, but I don't happen to like it.

But in the forces, it's a different ball-game. As has been better expressed by others, it's a secret organisation which could bypass the chain of command and could influence promotion, discipline, etc. After all, Masons do swear oaths of loyalty to their brother Masons, don't they?

Adastral: You don't know who I am. You don't know what I do (though I'm flattered that you think I'm a "narrow minded biggots who scrawl for the tabloids"). At the same time you don't know "what kind of reporter I am, but it patently doesn't involve any serious research". "The press has far more power, and corrupting influence, than the freemasons will ever have". Interesting that the press and publishing industries have plenty of practising Masons..... perhaps if I was one I'd earn myself a little less venom and odium. Or perhaps not.

And who are these poor innocents who've been so destroyed by the press? Neil Hamilton? The Maxwells? Archer? And isn't it atrocious that the press have drawn attention to the Chinook crash, Blair's lies and spin, etc. Don't push me into defending the tabloids - much of what the press does is shabby and shoddy, but much of it is well-meaning, and most journos do what they do in the misguided belief that they might do some good. (Not me mate, I do it for the money and the fame).

[The Brown Bottle]

Okay. My Grandpa was the grand poo bah or whatever you call it of his lodge for a time. Lovely old fella. But, why so secretive? I've been to social functions at the lodge etc. and i'm sure much good is done. But the whole loyalty/secrecy thing disturbs me. At the end of the day it isn't a rugby club it is a very big, old club with (as far as i can work out) some rather strange and secretive pastimes/rituals. Its the secrecy which i find worrying. The dodgy handshakes, why not just bring it up in conversation? What is the point of determining that someone is a fellow mason discreetly? Argue all you want. I think it is wrong that gentlemen/women such as ourselves should be bound by a "discreet" societys rules. You cannot defend it reasonably. Bin the secrecy and it would be far less suspicious and more palatable to us who never roll our trouser legs up. Unless we go paddling of course.

[Samuel]

Hmmm, a bit heavy here chaps, what with Jacko's " publish and be damned approach"and Stan at the opposite end of the spectrum. It does say "In God We Trust" Stan, but the realist will tell you that everyone else pays cash!

Mister P, I confess to playing rugby both as an SAC and Sqn Ldr, though with much regret as the latter, there being some interesting intervening years!No fool like an old fool, but rugby is like that.

PW seems an intense young man; nothing wrong with that, but both you and Jacko seem to puffing out your respective chests in saying, "Put up or shut up." Neither will win so why bother?

DW has a point, and a sustainable one at that. Though I could never prove it, I have seen some questionable write-ups by known Masons.

The winner of course is TBB, whose summary is succinct and humourous, which I like!

On another matter, I have a serious question to ask an experienced C130 Captain,if one would like to e-mail me?



[This message has been edited by Samuel (edited 05 April 2001).]

[The Brown Bottle]

Whats worst? Me writing this at one in the morning over here, or you lot at six over there? What are you all doing? Am I now under surviellance? PW is going to attack me with clever lawyer speak and goats. I've had it. Bloody hell I've got them after me now. No more comments from me on masons. Weirdos. Never mind the rotating knives, please can I join?
(Ahem....)

[Paul Wesson]

TBB

Couldn't attack you with goats, they're all quarantined because of the foot and mouth outbreak.

Jacko, I'm afraid that as each Lodge is registered as a charity and as charitable giving is the first thing one is taught about in a Masonic Lodge (oops, giving some of our secrets away) I disagree. I'm not disagreeing from idle speculation or rumour, but would suggest that you check out Registered Charity No. 1001298 (New Masonic Samaritan Fund) or any of the other masonis charities (all their names are availble from our head office).

There was a recent investigation into Masonry by a number of Parliamentarians. Interestingly they had to examine all of our ceremonies and all they could criticise was the words 'provide a column of mutual support' taken out of context.

I'm still surprised that you indulge in the 'I spoke to my mate' type of journalistic comment. You don't know, but your mate assures you, that there are cases of Masonic influence in the law and as such you would stop people belonging to the club or make them give up their chosen professions.

DW

I suspect the strange promotions are for reasons other than Freemasonry. If Freemasonry was a way to get advancement in the RAF, how come I never once got a posting I asked for and didn't get promoted (even though at one stage the Air Secretary was a Freemason). I've been a Mason since before joining my first squadron. I wish it was as easy as people make out.

[Adastral]

In March 1997 The House of Commons Home Affairs Committee reported on the results of an investigation into Freemasonry in the Police and the Judiciacry. The Chairman of the committee was a Chris Mullin - a fanatical anti-mason. He was of the Jacko ilk. Masons were, supposedly, engaged in a conspiracy to hide any wrongdoing by Freemasons, even to the extent that Judges would exonerate criminals who, it was alleged by Mr Mullin, would make secret signs from the dock. He also believed that policemen who were Freemasons failed to take appropriate action against their Brother Masons who had committed crimes.

The investigation ran from 1996-97 and evidence was taken from a wide range of people from the Lord Chancellor, the Magistrate's Association, the Association of Chief Police Officers, individual members of the Judiciary, the Bar Council, the Crown Prosecution Service and from Leading Freemasons.

One of the other members of the Committee was The Right Honourable Baroness Knight of Collingtree DBE. Although not a Freemason (being a Lady) and not connected with any masons, she managed to retain a balanced view of the enquiry. In an article written by her on the subject she comments:

"As the committee proceedings ground on I became more, not less, convinced that we were on a wild goose chase. The allegations against the Freemasons appeared to based on perception, not fact."

When you review any accusations againgst the Freemasons (just look at this thread) it comes down to perception. Jacko is now keen to portray himself as a serious journalist [re-read your first comments on this thread Jacko!] but still will not attempt to produce any genuine evidence. "A friend of mine could tell you some real stories".

Actually, I would be amazed if he didn't come up with a least some facts. There are probably getting on for a million living (not neccessarily practicing) Freemasons in the UK. Human nature being what it is, I would be very surprised if a few of them were not unsavoury characters who had abused their membership of the craft.

The fact of the matter is that any Freemason worth the name would not. And, thankfully, they are in the vast majority.

The investigation led by Mr Mullin was totally inconclusive. His accusations were not bourne out and the result was a rather wishy-washy statement that members of the Police and Judiciary should register their membership of the society.

Are there Freemasons abusing the promotion system in the Service? It's not beyond the realms of possibility, but no more so than any other method of networking.

The Rugby Clubs and Golf Clubs on every station have far more members than the Freemasons. It is much more likely that preferential reporting occurs between members of the these clubs. Does anyone cry conspiracy when one rugby player reports on another?! [They probably will now?!!]

Short of writing "I am a Freemason, please promote me!" on the front cover of your annual report, how is the board meant to know that you are a mason? Surely every Promotion Board is bound to contain members who play golf or rugby? Will they not be prejudice towards on of their own? It's written in the narrative if you represent the station for any sports.

Oh my God, we have a sporting fraternity that promotes it's own!! Jehovah!

Just because you know that one golfer is being written up by another golfer - what can you do? Nothing. Why? Because it doesn't actually matter.

" It's the Freemasons" is just another lame excuse for lack of achievement. There are probably at least ten better reasons why one person gets promoted over another - the biggest one is usually "right time, right place"!

Incidentally, Mr Mullin went on to ensure that the West Midlands Police were forced to register as Freemasons. It was, of course, Mr Chris Mullin who also campaigned and eventually obtained freedom for the men imprisioned for the Birmingham Pub bombings on the grounds that the verdicts were 'unsafe'. They were given their freedom due to Mr Mullin who has stated that he knows the names of the 'real' bombers but has steadfastly refused to divulge that information.

It is a sad irony that men like Chris Mullin, who will not disclose the names of guilty murderers, should be instrumental in bringing the full weight and power of Parliament to demand the names of innocent policemen for the 'crime' of being a Freemason.

It is all to easy to let the perception get in the way of fact. Freemasonry will only cause disparate loyalties in people that would have found any number of excuses to look after each other. If any of these people join the masons, they usually leave in dissapointment.

Let's try and be a bit more balanced about this.

[Jackonicko]

Just a little annoyed by these accusations about me. I'm not a fanatical anti-Mason (though such is the level of paranoia and defensiveness that anyone who raises questions about the Masons is described as such).

I'm indulging in "I spoke to a mate" because this is a little relaxing internet debate. If I was a general journo compiling a story, I'd be trawling through all the resources and references. If I were to post some specifics you'd probably dismiss it all as propaganda by fanatical anti-Masons anyway, and would smear whoever had come up with it. Chris Mullin? "Remember his dealings with the pub-bombings!"

If one were to direct the interested to the Lord Chancellor's views on the need for Judges and magistrates to declare their membership, and on the potential conflict of interests, doubtless we'd get a blizzard of postings about his penchant for £200 per roll wall-paper.

I liked the selective reporting of what one member of the select committee (how do we know she had no Masonic connections, BTW?) said. But the Committee's conclusion was that:

" the select committee said: "We believe that nothing so much undermines public confidence in public institutions as the knowledge that some public servants are members of a secret society, one of whose aims is mutual self-advancement." And that's the crux of why Freemasonry is incompatible with service in the armed forces, police or judiciary.

[Laser Jet]

J/Nick

You said:

Juvenile nonsense or deeply corrupt?

Either way, there's no place for freemasonry (or any other secret society) in a democratic society, let alone in its armed forces. Serving Masons should be exposed and sacked.

Perhaps if you had offered a third option your comment would not have been so deeply offensive to those PPruners who are Masons.

I am not a Mason myself but can fully understand how, to someone who is, the above comment is a red rag to a bull.

If you are now getting annoyed with detailed, reasoned rebuffs that's just tough luck. If you can't take the fall-out don't post such drivel in the first place.

Either come up with names, dates and places of all these supposed corrupt people or keep schtum. Saying 'cos my mate told me so' just isn't good enough to back up such an offensive post. Neither is saying you can't be arsed to do any research. If you are going to say something soooooo contentious at least have the balls to back it up with some substance. If you don't nobody on this forum will ever take you seriously again. You sound like a petulant little boy. I can just picture you stamping your foot and saying "it's my ball and if you won't let me be goalie, I'm going home". Play nicely!

Put up or shut up.

[Adastral]

Thank you laser Jet.

Jacko, as the point has been so succinctly put, you should try to maintain a level of consistancy throughout your comments. If you had not given such an ill considered opinion to begin with, this thread would not have become so heated.

"..this is just a relaxing internet debate."

I am glad that you aren't taking these threads seriously - you could turn out to be one evil b£$£%"d ?!!?

I am sorry that you feel unable to offer anything of any substance to the debate. The fact that Baroness Knight is a woman should offer some credibilty to her comments. The fact that elsewhere in her article she states that she has no masonic connections should count for another, or does that simply add to the conspiracy?!

If you read through my comments again Jacko you will see that, despite being incensed by your opening remarks, I have tried to be objective in my arguments. If you wish to make this a 'relaxing debate', apologise for your earlier remarks and continue with a reasoned discussion.

[Small Cheese]

Nice one, Jacko. You've certainly outed a few masons with this thread!

I bet there's a whole great raft more out there just itching to wade into the 'Jack-attack', but can't quite risk going public!!

[Jackonicko]

I'd best apologise before a follower of the great architect of the Universe (or 13 or 33 of them) cuts my tongue out and leaves me at low tide. So let me re-phrase the sentance which caused so much ire.

Juvenile nonsense (I'm afraid that the trouser legs, left-nipple-bearing, solemn oaths and aprons means that I can't help but leave that in) or potentially and perceived to be corrupt?

Either way, there's no place for freemasonry (or any other secret society, political party or narrow interest group) in the armed forces of a democratic society. Serving Masons should be required to identify themselves, and if they fail to do so, then they should be exposed and sacked.

More from the commons committee

"d.

it is not possible on the evidence we received to say that there has never been any abuse of masonic contacts and certainly there are many allegations. But some of the extreme criticisms of widespread abuse we received are manifestly unfounded and the others can not be said to have been substantiated to us on the balance of probability let alone beyond reasonable doubt, although in a small number of cases, such as that in Blackburn, this is a reasonable inference;

e.

where there is evidence of criminal or otherwise improper behaviour by freemasons, the freemasons themselves are taking stronger action against the perpetrators than was the case in the past; whether or not this is because of increased public interest, we welcome it; and

f.

there is a widespread public perception that freemasonry can have an unhealthy influence on the criminal justice system, and we certainly believe that one of the main reasons for freemasonry's poor public image is a perception that it is a secret society. We therefore encourage freemasons to address this perception and to correct the negative image of freemasonry."

and "We believe however that nothing so much undermines public confidence in public institutions as the knowledge that some public servants are members of a secret society one of whose aims is mutual self-advancement - or a column of mutual support, to use the masonic phrase."

But if you want examples so badly, not everyone believes there haven't been any. How about the death of the previous Pope, Calvi and P2, Kenneth Noye's amazing ability to stay out of jail and ahead of his pursuers, and John Stalker just for starters - or was that all down to some charitable golf club? But I'm afraid that this is one thread I still won't take entirely seriously - you're having a laugh.

Aren't you?

[The Mistress]

Small Cheese

All that Jacko has exposed here are facets of his own personal bias. The Masons on this thread have all declared their membership on this Forum on previous occasions on other threads. Jacko and I have exchanged e-mails in the past. He knows my real name and I know his. Who are you? Seems to me you are the one who doesn't want to risk 'going public'.

Jacko

Glad to see you've given a little ground. I admit that I was taking the p*ss but I don't think Adastral is too happy. I hope your apology helps to smooth his feathers a little.

YellowBelly

Happy now? Sorry I didn't come back to you yesterday - I was working! I am not a Mason but am a wife of and have enjoyed many a social function in their company including one in a very grand setting in London. I have no intention of letting the perception of a few possibly corrupt Masons spoil that! I have never been privy to the 'rituals' and frankly don't give a sh*t what they entail as long as nobody is physically hurt. I did get a small glimpse of the 'noose' bit during the filming of a TV documentary for a German production company - my husband was the 'star' of the film. I have attended a social function in an RAF Officers Mess where someone produced a chain saw and started carving up all the dining tables - now THAT is really bizarre! :)

[This message has been edited by The Mistress (edited 06 April 2001).]

[Adastral]

Jacko

Although not a direct apology I will defer to TM and agree that some ground has been given.

Your selected items from the committee report surely prove my point. Chris Mullin was desperate to prove a massive masonic conspiracy but, as the Committee commented, it was unable to prove any allegations 'on ballance of probabilities' let alone 'beyond reasonable doubt'. It's good to see that you are still innocent until proven guilty in this democratic society.

So it's OK for a politician to withold information on murderers, but you still want to force innocent men to declare membership of a lawful society? I am not sure that I like your idea of democracy.

If you are alleging that the masons are a sinister body, interested only in the promoting self interest and will do anything to help each other out by secret signs and handshakes, then you had probably better stick to fiction in future.

If you are asserting that the Freemasons have been appalling at promoting a good image, then your argument has merit.

For too many years the movement has been able to go quietly about it's business, promoting benevolence and providing a focal point for likeminded individuals. In today's society not even the Royal Family is free from public scrutiny - hence the easy targeting of the masons.

If all people are truly concerned about is the ritual then go to almost any library and take your choice of books on the subject. Knowing about trouser legs, bared chests and bits of rope does not make you a mason. It is the internal qualities that freemasonry regards, not external values and appearances.

Just because we don't shout about our charitable work doesn't make us any less benevolent.

Don't get wound up about the secrecy. How can masonry be a secret society when so many people know about it? I would prefer to use the word privacy, rather than secrecy.

Given that there has been no proof of masonic wrong doing, only allegations, why force people to disclose? And then, where do you draw the line? Rotarians, R&A Golf Membership, Political Parties, Church etc etc.

If you don't think the same 'corruption' exists between members of these organizations then you are not applying the same logic.

The bottom line is that I belong to a society that is thouroughly lawful, promotes benevolence and gives you the opportunity of meeting with some very interesting men and women.

Although I have no objections to people knowing that I am a mason, if you force people to be placed on a register, you are in danger of creating reverse discrimination. "Can't be seen to promote bloggs, bloody nice chap, but he's a mason."

That's not the democratic society I joined the Services to protect.

[Small Cheese]

Sorry TM! I just thought this was all quite amusing. Masonry is just one of those subjects that people seem to get FAR too worked up about for their own good.

I'll go back to my playpen now. I'll exercise my basic right to remain anon, if you don't mind!!

[Jackonicko]

"You still want to force innocent men to declare membership of a lawful society?"

In the Forces, Police and Judiciary, yes, I do. Just as I'd want them to declare their membership of the Socialist Workers Party, Combat 18, or even the Labour Party if they had any real involvement in it. There's enough justification for a sensible precaution, whether it's strictly necessary or not.

In this day and age, quite apart from the worries about corruption, the Masons' refusal to admit women is also sufficient for me to be very antipathetic towards them, and to favour sanctions against them - and I feel just the same about any form of stupid or unnecessary racial or sexual discrimination. (Don't want women Paras, do want them in the Groucho club).

PS: Kenneth Noye. Recent. Topical (ish) and very definitely a Mason who used his freemasonry to stay ahead of the law. He's my example.

But, if it helps at all, I know he's NOT TYPICAL.

[The Mistress]

Small Cheese

Agreed on the heated debate bit - that's why I tried to kill the thread earlier on but the originator of the thread got the wrong end of the stick, bless him. Oh well. Don't worry about staying sneakybeaky - I was taking the mick :)

Jacko

Glad you managed to scrape something out of the bottom of the barrell - finally. So that one name condemns everybody huh? Daft bugger. I think you owe Adastral a pint.

[Jackonicko]

Just for you, TM, please add 'Stalker'. And 'Calvi'. And P2.

But I'll buy him a Beer anytime - but at my place, not his!

Daft, but not yet a bugger!

[The Mistress]

Jacko

That's better. Don't condemn everyone for the sake of a few.

Can I put the toys back in your cot now :)

[YellowBelly]

Thanks to all for your responses - I have certainly learned a lot. Clearly an emotive topic, but I think its run its course now.

TM - pas des problems. As a newcomer to the site, I had no way of knowing that I was raising an old issue. Having said that,the number of responses indicate that there is still plenty of interest in the issue! Back into my box....

[Adastral]

Just got back from an Installation and Dinner in Fife. Had a thoroughly enjoyable day with a bunch of congenial gentlemen (Sorry, Jacko, no ladies....yet?).

Unfortunately, we didn't get round to discussing world domination, but the evening was more cordial for it.

Still, a proud mason, still proud to serve. Let's hope that a minority of small minded politicians don't force loyal members to reconsider their futures in public service.

Come on Jacko, just one pint down at the Lodge... I promise to keep the goat tethered?!!

[Flatus Veteranus]

I am sure we can all accept that the masons are altruistic and that their lodges are worthy charitable organisations. But why should anyone want to join what is certainly a covert (if not a strictly secret) society, unless they believe it brings certain priviliges and advantages ? After all, there are many well-known, well organised charities of unimpeachable reputation that they could join, from the churches through the Salvation Army to the British Legion.

The secretiveness of the Masons is bound to attract suspicion of nepotism and mutual back-scratching. We all know (or think we know) of cases where someone has been promoted clearly beyond his natural ceiling, or where favours have been granted to individuals, which were only "explained" by the later discovery that the favoured party was a mason. In the public service, where the taxpayer's dosh is involved in large lumps, probity and fairness must not only present but must be seen to be so. Anecdotal evidence of favouritism corrupts and undermines the system.

When I was approaching retirement in the early '80s I did the Business Management course run for the services at that time by PCL. All students were asked to fill out a questionnaire on how they made initial contact with their eventual employer (jobs were scarce for those aged 50+ at that time). In order of frequency, over a number of years, the answers came out as follows:

- Contacts made while still serving (huge majority)
- Golf club
- Church
- On commuter train (1st Class)
- Advertised vacancy (very few)

Masonry was not mentioned; but this only increased suspicion. If masonry does not help you to find a congenial job when you retire, what's it for?

The Welsh Assmenly has at last found something useful to discuss: whether members should be required to register their membership of the freemasons as an "interest". Perhaps all the public services should follow their lead. An index held on some government web site should do.





------------------
presto digitate

[Jackonicko]

Very well said.

While people like me still think: "No smoke without fire", surely it's in Mason's own interests to declare their membership, and thereby help to rid us all of our prejudices about the secrecy and potential for corruption. It's like DNA profiling - only the guilty have anything to fear.

That's in society at large. In the Police or the Forces, I'd still rather be safe than sorry.

Adastral,

It's not the goat that worries me, it's you lot laughing at my legs when I roll up the old trouser-leg.

JN

[opso]

I am not a mason and, as an agnostic, would be inellegible to join. I do however, sympathise with many of their (openly declared) ideals. The fact that they do not shout about their good work is, in my view, a commendable thing as it is suggestive that they are doing charitable work more for the sake of that work than for their organisation's benefit. After all, look at the charitable work done by the forces (less now than used to be done) - we publicise it at least at a local level in order to gain good PR for us. Suspect motivation? Certainly works well come ACR time!

Before 'buzzwords' were invented, one of the buzzwords of the armed forces would have been 'service'. Admittedly that now appears to have been replaced by 'retirement options'. However, as masonry encourages tolerance, support of others (including, but not exclusively, other masons) and a high moral code, surely a mason's code would be something we would want to see in our officers. Could be that we wouldn't be in the awful state we are if more of our leaders, at all levels, applied the same standards to themselves whether they were masons or not. Every mason that I have met in the forces (that has admitted to be a mason, anyway) has been a decent sort. Paul W did some free consultancy for me to help me win a small claims court case when I lived opposite him and his actions are typical of everyone I have known to be a mason. (There Paul, now you know who I am! Normal email is [email protected])

Are a disproportionate number of our promoted also members of the brotherhood? Possibly, possibly not, but it's impossible to tell either way unless we conform to Jacko's plans for registering all members. Even if it were the case, does it prove that the secret connections enhance professional advancement or that decent blokes that give a damn about other people get promoted ahead of others? If it's not the case, it shows that being a mason brings little personal gain other than spending time with like-minded people. I have seen some total wasters get promoted - we all have - but they have been the type that has ignored their primary

One aspect of their 'secret society' status that I do appreciate is that I have NEVER had a mason try to ram their involvement down my throat. Hurrah! Unlike other serving Born Again Christians, New Labour members, card-carrying Tories and Man U supporters. I have seen all these other groups give overly generous reports to their unofficial 'members' and have had all of these groups annoy the hell out of me by being overly public. Especially the Man U fans who really should be secret, silent, outlawed and ashamed of themselves! ;-) Whilst I support their right to their own beliefs, I object to being a subject of a conversion crusade.

Finally, Jacko, since I have been on this board you have come across to me as a rarity - a reasonable and thoughtful journalist, open to sensible debate. Sadly, on this thread, your bigoted and unreasonable posts have sullied much of your good image in my eyes. And probably in the eyes of others too.

[This message has been edited by opso (edited 08 April 2001).]

[Paul Wesson]

Er, actually opso you've got me guessing. I'll send on the prune e-mail for fear of sending something to the wrong person. I think I know who you are, but I really have helped out a lot of people over the last few years.

Flatus veteranus - there really are people in this world who don't look at every organisation and say 'what's in it for me?'. When I became a Freemason in 1984, at the age of 27 I didn't even think about retirement jobs nor any possible promotion (still waiting). I've joined many organisations and most of them have involved more giving than taking. That's not an odd thing to do.

opso seems to have hit it on the head about our charitable giving. We all give according to our means (and when we're broke we don't give at all). Why do we have to make a song and dance about what we do? Why can't we be private?

Some people may think that it is strange (juvenile) that a group of grown men come from different places, dress in uniform clothes they don't normally wear, perform a ritual to a set of rules and procedures laid down over time and then go out for a drink and a meal afterwards..... but then that's football players for you.

Perhaps if Freemasons performed their rituals in public there would be people travel to pay to watch the best performers. I'd like to think that I'm a particularly polished performer of ritual and might be likened to Beckham (only with a brain!).

Anyone prepared to pay me £25K a week to roll up my trouser leg? :)

[Jackonicko]

Sorry you feel like that Opso!

It may be that the strength of my feelings on this makes me look like a bigotted tw@t - but it's one of those rare subjects that seems to have some degree of black and white. It's NOT THE SAME but I'd have similarly strong views about (say) National Front membership by serving policemen. It may not affect them at work, (they'd have passed selection, etc. after all) but I'd rather not take the risk, or risk the adverse public perception.

I'm not sure that opposing Freemasonry within the forces is bigotted. My suspicion of the movement in wider society probably is.

[Adastral]

Question for you Jacko.

If Freemasons where to declare themselves on a register in the armed forces, what would it prove?

You never replied to my earlier comments that, short of writing 'I am a Freemason' on my 7500, noone on the promotion board will know. Even if they did the chances that they any of them would be masons and, more importantly, that it would make any difference, are very remote.

All it would serve to do is highlight me as a scapegoat for those who have not been promoted to say 'he only got picked up because he is a mason'. (Not that I have, unfortunately!)

I still assert that you are more likely to benefit from being a golfer (which is good because I am also one!?) or a rugby player (I enjoy watching it, does that count?!).

I was a mason before I joined the Service and hardly saw anything to do with masonry in the forces until very recently. (Over 10 years). I would be very agrieved to be 'blackmarked' because of my association with this ancient organization.

Just because it is secretive, it should not be compared to the other militant organizations that you mentioned.

Freemasonry forbids all discussion of a political or religious nature. The Grand Lodges of Scotland, Ireland and england steadfastly refuse to take positions on any such matter.

The 'disparate loyalties' mentioned in the recently cancelled DCI concerning the craft is a load of old bo&*&ks! If Chris Mullin is trying to tell me that I am going to be more loyal to another serviceman because he is a mason he is as sad and disillusioned as I think he may be.

Why is it that this society is increasingly being dictated to by a number of petty minded individuals who enjoy going on their own personal crusades? I would have thought that the issues like Clause 28, the Freemasons and Fox hunting are, in the great scheme of things, far less important than re-establishing the education system, re-vitalizing the Armed Forces and sorting out the Foot and Mouth epidemic?

Given that the arguments have always been about perception rather than substance, I hope that the politicians start focusing on doing what is best for the silent majority and not the vocal minority.

On a lighter note, I am with you PW. I could do with getting paid for my floor work. If footballers can get as much as they do for their labours, surely we are worth a few bob?

It's a pity that all the work I do for the Lodge goes unsung... or will it be included in future, in my ACRs, if I am on a register?!!!

[Flatus Veteranus]

Paul Wesson

While I totally respect your motives (and your legal erudition!), can you explain to us why, when you were choosing a charity to join, you chose the Masons rather than the "transparent" ones. It is rather like asking BCCI investors, who are now sueing the Bank of England for failing in its role as banking regulator, why they passed up Barclays, Lloyds, HSBC and NatWEst to seek out a bank based in the near Near East, which was widely rumoured to have dodgy connections?

You have reminded us that freedom of association is enshrined in the Human Rights Act. What about transparency of government? Surely it is not unreasonable to expect public servants to be open about their connections and loyalties?

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presto digitate

[mr ripley]

Now its my turn to be upset.

Opso as a Man Utd fan I think your remarks are equally bigoted.

However as this is a professional pilots rumour network military forum, I don't give a stuff. Just like this topic, relevance, I don't care for the debate.

I am sure it has a place but not here.

Opso, I am suprised that PW does not know who you are as he spent enough time in your house chatting away till the wee hours. I also used to live opposite you and next door to PW.

[Paul Wesson]

FV

Of course Freemasonry is not the only charitable body I am a member of (indeed I have been trustee of 2 charities - with the nause paperwork that that implies). opso, who I have finally sussed (I hadn't worked out which base) and Mr Ripley may well remember me collecting money door to door for one of those charities that sponsor children in other countries (my wife and I sponsored a child for several years). Both my wife and I have supported a variety of charities by membership, door to door collection, street collection, covenant and active participation. Freemasonry is a general body that supports, directly and indirectly, charities and individuals in times of need. I'm not in Rotary or Round Table (although I have helped at Round Table functions) through choice. There is literally only so much time and money any one of us can give. My firm belief is that everyone should contribute something to the society they belong to. If the citizenship of the UK were to give a couple of hours a week and a small cash amount a week then most of the problems our society faces could probably be cured. I do put my money and my actions where my mouth is, as every one who knows me in person, rather than by rumour, is aware. I do believe that covert charitable actions are as good as overt charity giving.

Mr Ripley, does your wife share a name with a popular salad vegetable? Do you ham it up a lot? ;)

[Spence]

I must say I have been following this topic with great interest as it has made chuckle somewhat. I wish I could say that being a mason has enhanced my career, but it hasn't (even writing cryptic comments on my ACR didn’t work!). I wish I could say that being a Rotarian had helped me climb the ladder but it hasn't if anything it has been detrimental. As for the chap who thinks that we become masons to get a job after we leave the mob, exactly which planet is he transmitting from, I joined for several reasons and post service employment certainly wasn’t one of them. As for us masons being secretive why don’t you chaps use your real names on here instead of hiding behind these pseudonyms?

[The Mistress]

Well Jacko, aren't you going to answer Adastral's question?

Tommy Squawk has deleted his offensive post, how about you doing the same?

[St Johns Wort]

Spence
Good call on the AKAs however, if you used your membership to enhance your ACRs, albeit cryptic, ar'nt you actually proving the point?!

------------------
sub rosa

[Jackonicko]

TM
I love you deeply, as you well know. (OK, maybe I just wish I did!). But.....

Am I going to answer? No. I've explained my position, and he's explained his. On Masons in the Forces I fear that there can be no 'meeting in the middle' cos neither of us will give an inch.

On 'removing' posts. No. I've apologised. I've explained. That ought to be enough. On reflection, however, I'll apologise again for deeply corrupt and say "I meant potentially and sometimes anecdotally corrupt".

There is a Cloucester Old Spot flying past my window at this very minute, so I'm waiting with baited breath for all the apolgies for the unkind words about me and my journalistic professionalism.

[The Mistress]

You'll be there a long time :)

[Spence]

St Johns Wort,

I was only joking about comments on my ACR, I honestly don't believe it would make any difference to the outcome anyway.

[St Johns Wort]

Spence
Roger that....thought you might be. A Mason I knew rose very high (the top) in his lodge (somebody told me!) but retired as spec aircrew Flt Lt.
PS No Im not, and dont mind who is.

------------------
sub rosa

[Ed Winchester]

Sorry to hijack the thread for a sec....

Saint Jonathan's Wart

Drop us an e-mail with your address - I've got something to send you!

Sorry, everyone, carry on with your arguments.

[mr ripley]

pw
no the otherside across the road
but i liked your allusions
mr ripley

[In Tor Wot]

Jackonicko, Not everyone joins a golf club/ham-dram group/church/Lodge or whatever for their own benefit. I note your earliest comments have moderated throughout the thread and I consider some of the replies to them have been highly charged and wide of your professional mark.

I am a Mason, I have also spent 17 years in the RAF - not once (ever) have I found there to be a contradiction between the two. I have never been asked to give undue assistance (or any assistance) to fellow masons and have only known a handful throughout my time. I do not expect/look for/use my membership for advancement and I would be disgusted by anyone that did.

So why join? My family have been Masons for nearly 90 years from my grandfather down, of my 7 uncles, 7 are in my Lodge. Not everyone is in it for himself - or perhaps they are. Perhaps they wish to spend their time learning something and wishing to live by a code which they idealise. Perhaps they want to spend some of their time in the company of like-minded individuals (have a look in the bar on a Friday night). Perhaps there are things that mean more to people than their personal advancement at the expense of others.

I am not a saint, nor do I remotely suggest that I have the personal fortitude to live up to these ideals all of the time - but I am willing to try. If I don't want to tell you, Mr Blair, my Flt Cdr, or the official office for Mason Registration it's not because I'm trying to 'hide' something, it's because it is none of your, Mr Blair's or my Flt Cdr's business.

Please don't take offence at that but I am starting to get perplexed by the growing number of people wishing to know what everyone does, when and why - perhaps George Orwell had something when wrote 1984.

[Adastral]

In Tor Wot

Jacko has indeed moderated his tone (thankfully) throughout this debate but, you have to admit, it has been mainly due to the 'charged' comments that myself, TM and PW have made.

As he has given ground, so shall I. I have no doubt that he is a consumate professional in his field; however, his early comments were strongly opinionated and a little ill-considered. My own feelings on the press remain.

The media is a far more powerful entity than the Freemasons will ever be. The fact that it is overt, makes it all the more worrying. The tabloids, in particular, know that they hold so much power that they can even risk libel cases in court. It's only money to them, but the damage may have already been done to someone's career.

I know that there are many journalists, and I include Jacko among them, who are serious, professionals who retain some moral balance. However, everyone in the media should be aware of the power, and corresponding reasonsibility, that they have.

As far as the masons go, Jacko is right, we are entrenched in our views. I do hope that others, who are not, may err on the side of caution with regard to this topic. I believe in my freedom of thought and speech. Jacko obviously believes in the same. The danger with the 'registration of Freemasons' is - where will it stop?

I have nothing to fear. Most people who know me know that I am a Freemason. However, to force people to disclose implies that there is something wrong and I don't want to be discriminated against. Especially as I have done nothing wrong!

Our laws still say that we are innocent until proven guilty...don't they?

[The Mistress]

Well said Adastral. If being a Pulitzer Prizewinner was a pre-requisite for posting on this Forum it would disappear up it's own orifice within a week. Do we have to submit our posts to In Tor for marks out of 10 before pressing the button? I don't think so!

All of the posts I have made on here have been done with my tongue pushed firmly in my cheek. We went down this road a few months ago so as soon as Masons were mentioned I knew Jacko would be in there with his insults. He didn't let me down.

Jacko asked for everything he got. (I love you really darling J).

YellowBelly - Thanks for the e-mail. You're a sweetie.