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Wee Weasley Welshman
4th Apr 1999, 03:24
Well there seems to be rather a lot of people interested in Aptitude testing on these pages at the moment. As it comes up fairly often I thought I might bang out a little essay on the subject in another of the occasional series of WWW infomercials. Sorry to all those who have heard this before from me in other threads.

So Aptitude testing. What does this vertically challenged Celtic fellow know about it you may well ask. Well I’ve been through (and passed) the aptitude tests for the RAF, British Airways, British Midland, CABAIR, Air Atlantique and last but not least Aer Lingus. Some I have done more than once. In my last job I worked as a Recruitment Officer for an electronics company and ran selection centres and interviews for Graduate and Modern Apprentice training programmes and I must have hired about 50 odd people between the ages of 16 and 25 in my time. I also did a Psychology degree at one of the better universities and tailored most of my study to my interest in aviation and selection procedures. As part of my studies I worked on personality testing, psychometric measurement, Crew Resource Management and ultimately a final year dissertation entitled “Comparative Psychometric Testing in Aviation Selection Procedures”. For this I (only because it was v.interestig to me you understand) got a First. I was also lucky enough to be granted Academic access to the MICROPAT research conducted by Prof Bartram of Hull University (yes the ones used by BA, RAF and others). In the light of this it might be fair to say I know a but about the aims, procedures, validity and strategy behind the tests that you guys are going to be sitting. However, and it is a big however, this does not mean I ‘know the answers’ or can help you skew the results. Its impossible because, as I shall explain, the tests have been devised in just such a manner as to avoid this.

So, what are the tests all about I hear you ask (I hate weak links like that). Well the tests split into two groups. The first if personality assessment and the second is aptitude testing – or to be more exact ability testing. Lets deal with personality assessment first. You take a couple of thousand people and get them to fill out a questionnaire detailing their preferences, likes, dislikes, opinions, philosophies etc. You then get a group of peers and associates to ‘rate’ these same people on scales such as aggressiveness, loyalty, maturity, emotionality etc. You put all the questionnaire answers and then the peer/associate ratings into a big computer and let the software link peoples question answers with the ratings given by their peers. After a couple of thousand assessments you get a trend established. When you yourself fill in the 300 odd questions at your assessment day what you are doing is providing a shortcut way for the assessors to, in effect, ask your particular peers and associates lots of searching questions about you and rating you on various scales. The process works on the basis that if you answer questions 1 through to 57 in (largely) the same way that a couple of thousand other people who, were considered highly socially competitive, answered question 1 through to 57 then in all probability if you were rated by your peers/associates they would also say that you were socially competitive. As far as personality psychologists are concerned the only measure of whether you are socially competitive or not is whether the people who know you say that you are or not (follow that?). The problem arises when you get people who are the life and soul of the party and appear funny and confident but are in fact lonely miserable tormented souls who just put on an act. These people screw up the whole concept but this is largely ignored as far as personality assessment is concerned.

So what can you do to make sure you answer the personality assessment ‘well’. This is rather difficult. You might be tempted into answering not as yourself but in a manner which you believe will be consistent with an airline pilot. Very dangerous thing to do this. Firstly there are ‘lie questions’ embedded in the questionnaire. These generally take the form of subtlety different questions that get at the same thing that are spaced widely apart in the test. If you answer Yes to ‘I love reading books’ but later say Yes to ‘I prefer to watch an interesting TV documentary on world politics than read a book’ your ‘Lie’ scale score will increase as the two answers are non-analogous. There will be many (and more subtle) such traps in the test paper. Now your Lie scale score will never be zero but if it is too high you might ‘fail’ the test and the higher it gets the more it reinforces other undesirable scales that you do not want high scores on. The moral therefore is to be yourself as doing so generally should lead you not to inadvertently contradict yourself and increase your lie score. Another problem is that your particular results are ‘weighted’ according to your age and sex and sometimes social background. This means that you might be able to do a perfect impression of a ‘typical’ Airline Pilot when it comes to answering the paper. Perhaps you know some already or your Father is an airline pilot and you know well his views and preferences etc. If you adopt this persona when answering the paper you might think that you are answering in the perfect way for the job you seek. This may well not be the case. The average airline pilot whom you base your judgement on will probably be older and more mature. The weightings that apply to you will not be the same as those that apply to him, or indeed, her. By adopting their persona you might well skew your scores in a very strange fashion. It could be like a young tearaway answering in the style of his granny by the time the weightings have been applied. This is liable to result in a rather ‘odd’ profile with you seeming to be an unusual young person. This is not what you want to be doing at all. If you hate Newspapers and Current Affairs then as a 19 year old that is probably not an extraordinary thing. The fact that most Chief Pilots like nothing better than a night in with a Broadsheet and an episode of The Money Programme does not mean you should profess to liking the same. Get the picture? Good.

Another problem is that different organisations are seeking different results from what could be the same test. For example, the RAF want hyper confident bullish young chaps that will fly into a night sky full of tracer with the absolute knowledge that they will not be hit because – hey ‘I’m me and I’m God – OK?’ Now this attitude, whilst necessary and understandable for the armed forces might well be different to the one that, say, British Airways seek. They might well be looking for the type of chap that likes to play by the rules, err on the side of caution and would rather put his feet up with a nice cup of cocoa and read the latest sheaf of SOP’s than charge stark naked at Jerry thank-you-very-much. The two organisations, quite rightly, have defined a different ideal profile for their needs. If you don’t know the profile then you cannot even attempt at adopting the relevant persona. Obviously I exaggerate for illustration here but you might be surprised by the degree of tinkering different employers make in test-pass profiling. The RAF for example were very very close at one time to weighting favourably applicants who had penalty points on their driving licenses because they found a lot of their successful pilots had at least three points at any one time. It’s a valid indicator as someone actually proved but politics got in the way. But, I doubt if the 405 passengers on tonight’s BA 747 to JFK would think it a good idea that young George up front was teetering on the edge of another speeding ban do you?!? Point made I hope.

So all of this might be leaving you a little forlorn. Well there are some practical things you can do when confronted by personality tests. The first thing to bear in mind is that most people pass them. Often they are not Pass/Fail test but are often used later on should you reach the next stage to direct particular lines of questioning. You should definitely try to be yourself and not conform to some ideal you have in your mind. HOWEVER, it is my experience that the airline industry is looking for someone who is fairly middle of the road, likes people but is no party animal and has a sensibly mature outlook on life. To this end you want to make sure you answer in the style of someone who like parties but does not go out every night, has a close circle of friends but not a huge one or just one mate from Primary School etc etc. Generally the only people excluded are the people at the extremes of the bell curve – as long as you are not a hunch backed drooling loon living in a wattle and daub cottage near Saffron Walden with a penchant for collecting rare fungi you will probably be alright (apologies to all who fall into the aforementioned).

So, we move now onto aptitude tests. This is a bit of a misnomer. The tests actually measure an intelligence of a certain kind. Someone somewhere decides that such an intelligence is useful as a Pilot. Thus an ‘aptitude’ is born. Nowadays this is largely done via factor analysis. You take a big sample of successful pilots and test them at various things like sums, spelling, reaction times and so forth. You set their scores against the general population and where they score high (or indeed low) you say that this fluctuation is a component of FactorX. Now FactorX could be anything - but as long as a statistically significant proportion of the successful pilot population displays FactorX you can simply reclassify it as ‘Pilot Aptitude’. My own particular research in this field for example found that possessing a vocabulary above a certain threshold was a statistically significant indicator of success in Air Cadet pilot training. Honestly- the cadets who were rated highly for flying ability by their instructors on Air Training Corps gliding courses were the ones who had the highest scores on a Verbal Reasoning and Vocabulary test. The statistical significance of the data was very very high and thus I could confidently link a particular vocabulary test with likely success in flying training. Now what the link between the two actually is I have no idea. I can think of little logical reason and was hard put to come up with a plausible hypothesis. However, this is exactly the way that aptitude testing is constructed. You may see little relevance between what you are asked to do and your ability to fly but there will be some empirical evidence somewhere that underlies what you are asked to do. It has been my experience that candidates are often exasperated as being asked to join dots with pencils etc when they have gone solo in 1hr 4miutes and their great uncle is Chuck Yeager. Such healthy scepticism should not however cloud your judgement about aptitude testing as the mathematics behind it all are very robust and practically irrefutable.

What you can practically do to enhance your scores is somewhat limited but nevertheless worthwhile. Mathematical reasoning is probably the easiest short term improvement that you can make. Now please do not go overboard. The testers have to pitch at the median level and so they simply cannot ask questions about hard thing like quadratic equations (yes, settle down at the back – I’m sure you can do them standing on your head drinking a pint of Guinness whilst chatting up the head girl of the local Sixth Form College in French but us mere mortals cannot - OK?) Therefore they always go for the simple question but a tight time constraint. You will often get 30 questions in 10 minutes. Someone like myself who has passed most of them does about 21 before the final whistle (although he craftily guesses the last 9 as there is never any negative marking any more <big hint> ). Somebody at the tests always claims to have finished the whole lot but ignore them because they are strange people who wear corduroy and have never smoked a cigarette in their miserable little lives.

On a similar, vein and to digress a moment, please please please do not get phased by the annoying well tanned fellow who sidles up during lunch to explain how he is enjoying the whole day immmmmensley because his Father has flown Concorde for the last twenty years whilst he has got a Double First in AeroPhysics from Cambridge before spending the last 12 months teaching the Masai Mauia tribe to become self sufficient cash crop farmers in Western Somoa. You are just as good as him – DO NOT PANIC! If these people try to get in a p_ssing contest with you about how good they are then that generally means that they are crap. Be cool and invite the nice guys for a pint at the end of the day and you won’t go far wrong in my experience.

So back to the real issue. Make sure you know how many inches in a metre (2.54cm to an inch, 12 inch to the foot, 3.28 feet to the metre), pounds in a kilo (2.2), US gallons in a Imp gallon (1.2) etc. Then make sure you know about Pythagoras and basic angles, degrees, etc. It sometimes helps if you know degrees and minutes of Longitude and Latitude and where the equator might be found. Some concept of pulleys, gears and hydraulics if useful as is the ability to add up various areas given length and width. Be able square simple numbers and if you can understand Powers i.e. 3 times 10 to the power 5, then it helps. All of the above is to GCSE standard only. DO NOT go above that – there is no point. GCSE Maths, Geography and English are useful. If like me it has been more than 5 years since you studied these things then a simple book from WHSmith is well in order to get you back up to speed.

More elaborate tests will confront you with various puzzles and number sequences to solve. This is an area where prior experience really helps. A great little book for six quid is ‘Test our own IQ’ by H. Eyesenck (check spelling). Eyesenck was a bit of a God when it came to intelligence testing. There are basic rules and patterns to look for in number sequences etc. which if you know what they are can allow you to walk some of the tests that some of the airlines out there use. Go to the library and ask for a search or WHSmith will do one under the Author: Eyesenck, or ask someone like Waterstones to recommend something. Its not hard.

Some aptitude tests will be little more than a maths test as described above (CABAIR initial tests spring to mind). Other will involve a little more detail. At this point I recommend you search for ‘WWW’s Big CEP Thread’ where I outline in more detail some strategies for passing the more involved tests and indeed the subsequent interviews. However, to expand now on the MICRPOT tests.

Basically these are the dogs what-nots as far as pilot selection goes. Believe me there is no other test in the world that is as well designed, regularly updated, perfectly validated, sensitively weighted as the MICROPAT tests as used by the RAF, British Airways and others. The data for these tests at the design stage was drawn from both the UK and US military experience and is constantly updated through testing done at OASC and other places. It is one of the few test batteries that has been designed for European use and then retro engineered for the US. It is very fair and even fun to use if you can overcome your nerves. For those that have done the test before and think they have an advantage I can report that having done the test myself more than a dozen times and knowing all about it my scores have not improved more than 5 percent from the first series in 1990 to the most recent in 1999.

There is nothing much you can do to ‘move’ your scores but the following may help. Wear a digital watch with a stopwatch on the day to keep time on certain tests. Lag behind on the computer tests by reading the instructions twice – you can then usually see (or hear) how you neighbour is getting on with the tests and learn from his mistakes. Do make sure the rudder pedals are central to you and exercise your legs on them to get a feel for the huge travel and lack of resistance involved. On the ‘Landing Aeroplane’ test turn the keyboard though 90 degrees so that the throttle functions (increase – decrease) works in a logical sense (back – forward). Hold the ‘joystick’ at the base not the handle. Its very long and has no resistance to movement. Greater accuracy can be obtained (especially if you have flying experience) from holding the column at its base. If you find yourself totally confused by the joystick tracking exercise because its back-to-front compared to flying then a little trick is to turn the joystick upside down and rest the base on the edge of the desktop – the stick then acts in the ‘natural’ sense with regard to left and right.

Other important things to note are that on the exercise where you have to distinguish between hostile and friendly aircraft and decide to launch or cancel a missile it is far better to make a quick but wrong judgement for the RAF and far better to make a slow but correct judgement for British Airways. Lets not get into the arguments about why – its just the case. Oh and on the RAF test sequence they get you to remember up to 9 digit numbers. Practice along the lines of ‘chunking’ things into 3 digit numbers. On the BA tests they go for asking you to simply subtract numbers. If you are the County darts champion then you will laugh in the face of this one but to us normal people make sure you practice 453 – 87 = ? until your ears bleed.

One of the last things I wish to address is the issue of Verbal Reasoning. It is very difficult to the point of being hopeless to try to improve your vocabulary or verbal reasoning skills ahead of a test. I would not bother if I were you. However, it is worth knowing the dictionary definitions of Irony, Inference, Assumption, Implication, Expectation, Conclusion, Arbitrary and Insinuation. There are others but this is a good start.

If you read this and the ‘Big CEP Posting’ plus the generic guides for Wannabes on the main site you will be well prepared for the aptitude day. Please, and I mean this, do not become distraught if you fail to meet the standard on the day. The margin between Pass and Fail can be very slight and you may have fallen just marginally short. I know many people who have failed an aptitude test at one place only to pass somewhere else. I also know people who have passed one or more test and then failed another. Just treat it like a lottery. If you never pass any test then for Gods sake don’t write off a career in aviation – nobody tested Wilbur Wright, Amy Johnson, Douglas Bader or even Brian Trubshaw (allegedly). You are in good company and you will find that a decent personality coupled to enthusiasm and hard graft will serve you better than any amount of hand-eye co-ordination. Trust me.

Well that’s the last of my beers drunk and its time for bed. If you have any individual SPECIFIC questions on aptitudes testing then feel free to Email me. Please bear in mind that I am rather busy at present developing my own aptitude for teaching people to fly – it may take a day or two to reply. Best of luck to all of you out there, I know only to well what it is like to pitch up for tests and then wait for the results. Keep smiling and if you can – please post your experiences here on PPRuNe so that a wider audience can learn from you. Whilst I’m current at the moment I’ll soon be out of touch… Safe Flying and Good Luck - WWW

Grease Weasel
4th Apr 1999, 03:27
Wow WWW - you must have some time on your hands! Hats off to you!

Wee Weasley Welshman
4th Apr 1999, 03:34
Actually time is at rather a premium at the moment but this stuff is all off the top of my head and I can type faster than I can talk... That said I am living in digs far away from the blessed Land Of My Fathers so I find myself in front of my PC late on a Saturday evening... sigh. WWW

Ric
4th Apr 1999, 04:02
I have finals for my psychology degree at "one of the better universities" in June and all I can say is believe the above.

As if it matters the spelling is H.J.Eysenck and he has several books of similar titles, e.g test/know/check your IQ. WWW cites Test your IQ at £5 in paperback, the most recently published one, by Thorsons in 1994. For agoraphobics (why would they want to be a pilot?) its available on line at www.bookshop.co.uk (http://www.bookshop.co.uk)

My (much less impressive) experience would recomend 'How to win at aptitude tests' by Paul Pelshenke (£5 again) also published by Thorsons.

Well done WWW and good luck to all in their aptitude tests.

[This message has been edited by Ric (edited 03 April 1999).]

Wee Weasley Welshman
4th Apr 1999, 04:18
Ahhh thank you Ric - a fellow psychologist on the forum hmm. Send me an email and we'll have a chat. Thanks for your timely corrections, much appreciated. Now what in the name of my hairy great a_rse are you doing on the internet at this time of night on a Saturday evening young man, hmmm (toe tapping in background)??? Goodnight everyone - WWW

GPS
4th Apr 1999, 06:18
WWW thanks for that info, as someone who has gone out an investigated these tests I have found that there are 3 flaws to them all.

1. I find the english tests racially bias. If one is to speak, read and write english but has not been brought up in an environment where the apptitudes tested have not been used to some extent in everyday life, eg: tests at school, reading video recorder setup instructions etc etc then the skills tested are not likey to reflect that. If your language is not english and say you were from the Europen continent going for a testing date with BA then already your behind the 8 ball. This however does not necessarily mean you cannot fly as well if not better than other people. The tests historically have been used on a range of people in a particular profession from a particular race which inturn already skews the test or makes it bias from the start. If I was going for a test for JAL and my Japanese comprehension was tested , even though i could speak read and write Japanese I will fail the apptitude and hence the opportunity. I think you get my point.

2. The tests are paradoxical. If I was a loud party person and I knew that this is what people saw in me, if confronted with a question along the lines of: are you loud and sociable person at parties, knowing that the airline did not want you to be too loud then I would answer accordingly to give the airline what they wanted. Whether knowing what the airline profile is or not, people become very self conscious of who they are and make themselves to be someone different to suit what they would like to see themselves as. I would not consider this lying just a reflection of the insecurities of people's perfect perception of themselves. I have done Psych tests and been myself and then re-done the test knowing the profile the airline has wanted. People are doing their research on the matter and if you want to know why most psy departmants at uni don't give out tests for you to practice, it's because it keeps them employed. Knowledge is powerful tool.

3. The tests do not test emotive intelligence or any individuals drive, energy level, dreams or aspirations for wanting to be a pilot or any other profession for that matter. I have worked with people from a wide range of backgrounds and it's typically the ones that have that little bit of insecurity in them that drives them to be the best.They are not complacent and their brains are always ticking over with brilliant ideas. Whether they are educated or not they will do it. You should never under estimate anyone's ablity to do anything. To have always wanted to be an airline pilot and to be told sorry your profile tells us your not the right stuff is absurd and elitist to the nth degree. Airlines neglect this, you only have to look on these pages to see people only worried about the money they are getting as opposed to the fact they are doing what they enjoy.

I have had my 2 cents worth and thank WWW for this info. I guess the bottom line is that the psych profile is becoming antiquated. There should be far more interviewing on motivation, general aircraft knowlegde and reasons for being there even before a psy test has knocked you out.

Ric
4th Apr 1999, 15:29
GPS,
I'm guessing your 1st language is not English. Anyone who has read any of my other posts will know that I am no stickler for accuracy in spelling or punctuation but your mistakes seem to be 'foreign'. Please forgive me if I am wrong but things like 'your' instead of 'youre'...?

Anyway my point is that I can see your frustration at the language tests but I can also see why they are there. I can speak French and German but would never want to fly in those languages because I would be scared of missing something, overlooking an inference, making a simple error. Especially in a stressful situation I know I would be disadvantaged compared to an able native speaker. Air France would fail me on their tests and rightly so. Considering the need for accurate communication in a two man flight deck language ability, I believe, should rank highly in the list of selection criteria.

As for the tests being biased, thats the whole point! I know it may seem unfair but what else do you expect them to go on. The pilots of the past have an excellent safety record and the airlines have been happy with them. Thus, quite reasonably, they are keen to find people of a similar disposition to replace the ones that retire.

You say the tests are paradoxical, without quibling over your word choice you seem to mean that one doesn't answer correctly because one thinks too much, has insecurities, whatever. That, I'm afraid, is your problem not theirs. All these tests come with instructions something along the line of answer quickly and do not dwell on your reply - the aim of this being to 'force' you to answer truthfully. Its a limitation but if you can think of a better way someone will probably give you a DPhil.

As for not being able to procure the tests, thats just wrong. Almost all tests are published with the exception of MicroPat and a few that are used in medical selection I believe. The profiles companies use are not published, obviously, because this would invalidate them entirely. Companies are however quite willing to clarify the qualities they want in a pilot, my guess is that these will be incorporated into the profiling...draw your own conclusions.

Dreams and aspirations, why should the airline care! They have no interest in fulfiling you childhood dreams, they want good pilots! OK so there is a sub argument that someone who wants to do the job does it better but its hardly the crux of the matter is it now.

You say testing is absurd and elitist, I would reply: how else can you approach meritocracy? You also say its antiquated, its only been here a few decades and its still being developed! Try finding a UK commercial psych test from 1980 and compare to 1990, its a growth area and for better or for worse one that is here to stay.

You say motivation is not looked into, it seems to me that the first question you are asked is normally 'so why do you want to be a pilot?' and it also forms the basis of later interviews!

You say selectors should test aircraft knowledge but why? I agree that any would be pilot should know that a 777 is twin engined and that airbuses have sidesticks but as for what the FRD784's energy requirement at 234 cycles is, it matters not. They want capable managers with an ability to learn (oh and being able to fly helps too), not fact fillled anoraks at the end of airport runways with limited verbal ability and the likely concommitant lack of social skills.

As for money versus pleasure of flying, that sounds like a new thread but in todays society its only natural to try to get the best paid version of the job you want to do. Also money never matters, so long as you have it...

Finally you seem to be a bit confused as to the distinction between the psych profiling and the aptitude testing; remember that psych tests will rarely knock you out, they only want to exclude nutters and hermits.

I think thats it, sorry if it seeems harsh and yes I probably should start to put smiley, winky, blushy things in my posts.

Good luck to all.

[This message has been edited by Ric (edited 04 April 1999).]

Propellerhead
4th Apr 1999, 15:47
Firstly : I agree WWW : ANSWER PERSONALITY TESTS HONESTLY
(a) Airlines do not want drones. Take a look at any airline, or even the RAF, there are MANY different personalities. It's true that the RAF attempt to 'mold' your personality to an extent during IOT (I know this is a gross over simplification, but it serves my point), but after 2 years everyone's true personalities come out again anyway. I know from my experience, EXCELLENT pilots who are quiet, slightly introverted, whilst others are the life and soul of the party and complete extroverts. I'm somewhere in between. And yes, all good pilots are insecure and 'scared' of flying - this is what keeps them safe. You need to be very confident in your abilities, but know your limitations. Over confidence leads to sloppiness, not doing checks, taking risks - NOT desirable in airline pilots. However, you also mustn't be under confident in your abilities, otherwise you will be indecisive. YES, there ARE certain traits airlines want, generallt slightly conservative people who don't break rules, have high integrity etc. are less likely to take risks and stack a plane. As long as you are not extreme, then you should 'pass' the test.

(b) If you try to answer 'as an airline pilot' you will come out strange and will get caught out be the 'truth questions' eg) do you ever lie? If you say NEVER, then you are lying! If you say 'not very often' you are probably normal.

(c) Its worth doing some of the personality tests in self test books available. I answered mine totally honestly and came out with 'manager / armed forces officer'. That really affirmed my faith in them. Try it, and try answering as an airline pilot and compare the results - I don't know the outcome, it would be interesting.

(d) If you really aren't the right person to fly a plane its probably best to find out now than on a windy night with a Captain you don't like when an engine fails on final approach! However, if you should know what sort of qualities are required to be a pilot, and you should know yourself well enough to make an assessment as to whether its the right job for you.

Finally, a basic desire to fly is one of the most important factors airline psychologists look for in pilots. This drives yourself to do the best and constantly improve at something we all find challenging. This is assessed mainly in the interview and in your c.v - has everything you've done so far been tailored to becoming a pilot? They don't want accountants who suddenly decide it might be fun to fly without knowing anything about it. You should be able to demonstrate this desire to fly with your qualifications etc. This is what gets you to the aptitude tests - everyone there will be the same in this respect.
Good Luck everyone, and remember, play the game, do the revision, and succeed.


[This message has been edited by Propellerhead (edited 04 April 1999).]

GPS
4th Apr 1999, 16:37
Ric, now you know why most pilots hate psychologists like yourself(when you graduate that is). The only difference between you and me is that you have studied the material to give you insight that others would like. It does not mean that what you are studying is correct or valid in anyway except that it allows you to voice your arrogance. Please stop with the jolly ho,ta ta cup of tea please sir rubbish of "overlooking inference" . Your reply is one of a condescending tone that already has me banished to relms of illiteracy and racial subservience. Why don't you just say I am British and being British I know best. Please stay away from airline recruitment, it's people like you that are turning candidates into flying robots instead of pilots who enjoy their job. Are you sure your not double majoring in accountancy?

It would be interesting if one day tests like this were given to people like yourself to see if you could study psychology. As far as safety is concerned I believe that this is also an elitist point of view from no doubt your anglo heritage. Half of Asia and most of Europe fly with different languages and most are safe.

So when do you start work on your shiny big jet? Too bad, I must have been one of those that slipped through the tests , I am proof that they don't work.

GPS
4th Apr 1999, 16:48
Ps: If anyone out there has any doubt to the sheer arrogance of Ric then please read what he dished up to some poor sod who simply asked a question:

Ric's Quote:

" As a student at Oxford Uni. I would like to say B******s to you. If you had been smart enough to get in here maybe you wouldnt have failed the maths!"

Oh well Ra Ra for you you silly spoilt ass. It's people like you that cause accidents. GROW UP!!

Ric
4th Apr 1999, 16:59
Ooops! Looks like I've managed to offend again.

As far as the post above goes I withdraw and appologise. Context might defend me though, it was in reply to a unprovoked insult to a stereotype and not in response to a question. I think there may be some hypocracy at the end there too.

"The only difference between you and me is that you have studied the material to give you insight that others would like."
Well I am quite sure that this is not the only difference but as you bring it up my studies will and do not help me pass the tests, period. They may make me less aprehensive but the books are there for you to read too. Airlines expect you to do the research, it proves the mettle of the motivation you see...

"It does not mean that what you are studying is correct or valid in anyway except that it allows you to voice your arrogance."
I appologise if I come across as arrogant but before pontificating on validity please do a little research, validity is one thing psych tests can prove that they have. Correctness is more tricky and I would argue is largely subjective.

"Please stop with the jolly ho,ta ta cup of tea please sir rubbish of "overlooking inference" . Your reply is one of a condescending tone that already has me banished to relms of illiteracy and racial subservience." I think you mean tally ho; I prefer coffee to tea and I wish subservience on racial grounds upon no man.

"Why don't you just say I am British and being British I know best."
With an Irish passport and having been brought up in the Netherlands I won't say that because I would be lying.

"Please stay away from airline recruitment, it's people like you that are turning candidates into flying robots instead of pilots who enjoy their job." I have no intention of entering airline recruitment except as a candidate for a flying post and if I fail to get that post I won't be found whinging about the tests,merely about my inability to pass them.

"As far as safety is concerned I believe that this is also an elitist point of view from no doubt your anglo heritage." Anglo what? Anyway, its celtic heritage actually and it is just that, my point of view, one I am entitled to voice.

"I must have been one of those that slipped through the tests , I am proof that they don't work."
Or maybe youre the one the tests were successfuly designed to weed out...

Disagree with my views if you will but the personal insults are better kept to yorself.
ttfn, darling ;)


(oooh, I got a winky thing to work!)



[This message has been edited by Ric (edited 04 April 1999).]

CHICKENTRAINER
4th Apr 1999, 18:12
Weasley, sir, you are an amazingly generous person. Captain PPRuNe should seriously consider setting aside the WWW Forum.

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ChickenTrainer

Purple Yetti
4th Apr 1999, 22:45
Weasly old boy, not quite sure what exactly is going on here with my computer, bloody thing looks as though its about to go totally t!ts up on me, just wanted to say well done on passing the GFT, and best of luck with the AFI course.

Must go, I have a lot of cappuccinos to drink.

Ciao.

Wee Weasley Welshman
5th Apr 1999, 01:14
No I’m not so generous I just firmly believe that the more you put into things the more you get back out and that this applies to PPRuNe. If everyone contributed everything that they could then this would be the very best forum+ on the entire internet.

To go through the thread from this point on…

GPS – any language test should be weighted in allowance of candidates who are not first language English. I think that many selection programmes ask about this at the application stage and thus an allowance can be made during aptitude test scoring. If there is no weighting then the tester may take the view that English language skills are ‘in themself’ critical to the job. This is unlikely though. If you are concerned about your second language skills putting you at a disadvantage then speak up. Nobody in their right mind will enforce an arbitrary pass mark in the face of such a self evidently just argument. I would discourage your idea that the tests are biased. Only a very small number of people applying to UK airlines are non-English first language persons. To allow for every variance of ethnic origin, non-conventional upbringing, regionallity and so forth is an unreasonable expectation. As with so much in life – including cockpit ergonomics – things are optimised for the median 95 percent to the exclusion of those at the edges.


The tests are designed so that ‘character-adoption’ by those tested is likely to fail by giving a high lie scale score. I doubt you can ever ‘know the profile the airline wants’ with any degree of accuracy as it is a closely guarded secret. Besides – the tests measure such generic traits that you are highly unlikely to correctly deduce what many questions are actually about. There is nothing sinister about psychological tests being kept well guarded – they are valuable intellectual property and as such most be kept confidential. It takes thousands of man hours and pounds to build and validate these tests. Many very intelligent people are involved and they have to be paid. Also in the hands of a layman the results can be easily misread. Being of a personal nature people are liable to be upset by them and as such deserve to be defended in the same way that you cannot read your medical notes or your student records during flying training. Powerful instruments, as these tests undoubtedly are, should only ever be placed in trained hands.

The ‘emotive intelligence’ you speak of is not suitable for test by psychometric means. That is far more appropriately done by interview. I believe that is the practice in most selection procedures anyway. As for your claim that ‘psych profile is becoming antiquated’ I refute this. The profiles are becoming ever more sophisticated. The advent of computers and their associated mathematics has led to whole factors of improvement in the validity of testing. Indeed the cutting edge of statistical mathematics in the last 20 years has certainly been in the field of psychometric testing. You are unlikely to be ‘knocked out’ on the basis of the psychometric assessment alone. Perhaps combined with aptitude tests you might be knocked out but few reputable testing agencies will exclude you on the basis of the psychological profile alone.

Propellerhead – thank you for that constructive and accurate contribution.

GPS – now I am sure you are a rather splendid fellow and I hope that one day we can meet up for a pint or ten but you seem to be being a little unfair. Pilots don’t have personal enmity for psychologists and most will acknowledge that valid, meritocratic and empirically defensible selection procedures are the way forward (in fact a strong belief in the concept of meritocracy is an unusually strong trait in the average pilot profile as it happens). The fact that psychometrics are ‘correct or valid in any way’ is absolutely provable in the same way that I can prove iron to be ferrous or light to be composed of photons. Actually that is the whole point of Psychology. It is the EMPIRICAL study of the human mind. People often confuse it with the rather more wishy washy science of Sociology. You are the person who has brought race and origin into this debate and not Ric. Also the medium through which we communicate is liable to misinterpretation – I think this has occurred where you criticise Ric for his tone and general bearing. I am giving you the full benefit of the doubt regards your post and it might serve you well to do the same with others. I have a feeling that were we all propped at the same bar then we’d be getting along just fine and not pulling each others hair like big girls! So you are flying a shiny big jet are you? Well done – tell us all what its really like, we’d interested to know you know.

Right. I didn’t wish to provoke an argument but there you go – we are slaves to the medium I guess. One thing I would like to add to my original post is the advice that you should focus on developing your interview skills to the same degree that you try to develop your aptitude test skills. It is comparatively easy to get some books and some advice and generally work towards being able to pass the aptitude phase of selection. Doing this will help you progress to the next stage – interview. Now I and many others have given fine advice about the interview stage with various companies. Having read that do not discount the idea of trying to improve your basic baseline competence at interview. In just the same way that doing puzzles and maths helps you with the aptitude tests so will simulated interviews help you with your interview. Its no good just thinking about typical questions and thinking up suitable answers. You really need to ask someone to take the trouble to interview you. It only works properly if you get dressed in the clothes you will actually wear and you give the interviewer a set of questions that you can expect from the airlines. It helps if you can get a middle aged person to do the interview and if possible someone who has actual authority over you as this helps create the right level of apprehension in you. In my case I got my Mums boss, a bank manager, to interview me with some questions I had prepared beforehand. Being experienced he had the right manner and also threw in some maverick questions which was good. He also made me genuinely nervous and had some ‘gravitas’. You might find friends parents, old school teachers or people at work suitable people to ask for help. Its only when you do this kind of thing that you find that you are prone to tapping your foot annoyingly or saying ‘basically’ before every sentence when under interview pressure. It’s very useful to do but requires a bit more effort than simply revising your maths. The interview is just as pass/fail as the aptitude tests and thus the effort is well justified.

Anyhows, once more my bed is calling after a hard days flying I am completely knackered. Lets all pull together over here on Wannabes – one for all and all for one etc. WWW

4-Jets
5th Apr 1999, 01:26
WWW.. the only thing I know is that the CAA tell us Pilots should be Stable and Extroverted and the best way of testing their character is by questionaires... umm personally I would take them down the pub.. and if they make me laugh.. well their in!

PPRuNe Towers
5th Apr 1999, 04:36
ChickenTrainer, thanks for the hint but here at Towers we've already made our move. The WWW has had a visit from our operatives, Big Henry and Mr Figgins, who made an offer the vertically challeged rodent-like celt couldn't refuse.

His chronicles are presently being bound in morroco and once they've healed will be available to all on the main site index page. Look out for, 'The Welshman's Progress,' coming soon to a website near you soon.

------------------
Regards from the Towers

[email protected]

Nearly Man
5th Apr 1999, 16:02
Dear WWW, well I heard rumours that you were going to have your ging gangs Raljex'd on your entering Pprune temple by the Pprune priestesses....good stuff.
Nice thread, but I've never smoked AND have never worn cordroy(!) :) Will I still get into the airlines ?????????

cyclops
7th Apr 1999, 15:38
WWW Superb stuff. Just 2 points; my Sociology lecturer once told me that there were only 2 types of people who believed in these tests; those who sold them and those who bought them.

On a different slant; what would you say to an airline which used these tests, had a lot of failures in training, and then said the standards are obviously too high, we will modify the test so more people can be accepted?

Wee Weasley Welshman
7th Apr 1999, 20:05
The *whole point* of psychometric testing is that is objective and not subjective. I can use proper maths to 'prove' that the results are accurate. Personality tests are just one part of the psychometric arsenal - they add to validity but by themselves are of only marginal validity but when added to other tests the validity trends markedly towards the ideal. WWW

DeeTee
7th Apr 1999, 23:29
I believe the WWW started this thread as a helpful guide to what the tests were about and how they worked. I am not sure he intended to defend every test and use of each test.

Anyway, another excellent informational. Best o'luck on the AFI stuff.....can we expect a 'WWW big AFI informational??' :)

turbulence99
9th Apr 1999, 14:53
WWW, about time pprune gave you your own slot, as the information you give is some of the best. I think a lot of people were better prepared for the Meadowbank experience due to your posts, myself included.
Cheers

[This message has been edited by turbulence99 (edited 09 April 1999).]

Bumble
9th Apr 1999, 17:55
Many thanks to WWW for a very informative thread.

Having been a reader for several months now, content to just read through everyones opinions, I feel that I could contribute to this thread, or at least seek contribution from someone else.

I must admit to not being a fan of the physometric/personality etc etc tests (excuse my ignorance) but I did appreiciate what WWW said in his mail.

I have been to a few aptitude tests with the airlines (since 1993 in fact), admitably I was probably too imature for the early ones and decided to "rest" from doing the recruitment rounds - get that valuble "life experiance"! I recently went to 2 apptiude tests but "failed" again! Maybe I'm just out of practise now?

Now for my point! I sat a personally/physcometric test for my present job (Project manager in a software company) for which they gave me a "print out" of the results. I read these straight after my interview and was plesantly surprised with what I thought was a reasonably accurate result! However, there is a few things I'd like to point out, with my experiance.

1. There was a note at the bottom saying that the test was not to be taken on its own and should be taken in conjunction with an interview. Something you don't get during the airline tests, or at least not in my experiance.

2. On my return to the company for a second interview following the tests. The interviewer asked me what I thought of the results of the test. I was completely honest, I said that I thought they were reasonably acurate when I read them the same day as they were done. But when I came to read them again just before the second interview, a week later, I thought they were awful! The interview commented that she "didn't think they were too good" on first sight but on reflection thought they actually where "good" (for what they wanted).

This brings me back to my orignial point, about being sceptical - I beleive that the "image" the psycometric test gives of a person is dependant on the mood/mind frame of the receiptent of the results (i.e. the recuitment person at company) at the time. Could this in anyway be true?

I assume the airlines do not have time to revisit personality tests and thus has my experiance would mean that I would be unlikely to get past the first stage of airline pilot recuitment, as on first sight I don't fair to well? Or perhaps the mathematical way they are "marked" gives a number and the airlines what you to have a number between 80-90, thus they don't delve into the "context" of your answers? WWW's point about the "lie detector" question:

"I love reading books’ but later say Yes to ‘I prefer to watch an interesting TV documentary on world politics than read a book'"

You should be able to say you love reading books at one point, however, given the choice between the TV and books you really would prefer watching TV. Your not lying with either answer. You just happen to love watching TV more than reading books - it doesn't mean you don't love reading.

Just one final thing - I realise I might have failed the airline tests for other reason besides the personality tests, and maybe I'm just so unsure of the unknown that I worry inadvertanly and end up not giving a true test. I would also say I have a reasonable grasp of Maths, Verbal reasoning, and OK hand-eye co-ordination. (My reasons being a Computer Science degree and a small amount of flying experiance).

I would really appreciate any comments you can give.

Thanks in advance.

flysundun
9th Apr 1999, 18:36
It's no wonder you don't pass the tests with spelling like that, your attention to detail is appalling.

everyones = everyone's
physometric = psychometric
appreiciate = appreciate
admitably = admittedly
imature = immature
valuble = valuable
experiance = experience
apptiude = aptitude
personally = personality
plesantly = pleasantly
acurate = accurate
orignial = original
beleive = believe
receiptent = recipient
recuitment = recruitment
inadvertanly = inadvertently

and I'm not even sure whether that's all of them!!


[This message has been edited by flysundun (edited 09 April 1999).]

Bumble
9th Apr 1999, 20:23
In reply to your comment flysundun (and thanks for spending the time to correct my spellings I shall jot them down for future reference!):

1. I wasn't aware that I said I could spell. I could question your attention to detail? But I won't! Trait of the modern world :-) spellcheckers - spend so much time using computers I very rarely construct written prose without one.

2. I did not know you had to have perfect written English to contribute to PPRuNe.

On my second point, I think that comments like yours are what stops people from wanting to contribute to this forum. Did your mother not tell you, "if you haven't got anything nice to say then don't say it at all"?

Oh and just a quick point - I have passed several of these tests, spelling is not a requirement. I would also argue that it's my spelling that's appalling not my attention to detail! But then I'd be nit picking wouldn't I?

DeeTee
10th Apr 1999, 00:03
Oh dear, Calm it down people. That sort of stuff is normally reserved for Rumours and constrained to easyJet and Go baiting each other.

Bumble, you raised some interesting points which I am unfortunatley not qualified to answer, but no doubt WWW will pop in for a response himself shortly. However, flysundun had a valid, if poorly presented, point. A critical aspect to this game is attention to detail, in all its forms. Quite right spelling may not have been an issue in the tests you took, but poor spelling may be a sympton of something else. I remember being told at a Professional Pilots Seminar that one recruiter received so many replies for a job advert that in order to sort them out he was rejecting as many as he could to give himself a manageable number. One of the reasons he gave for rejecting was a spelling error (yep, just one) and also if the stamp on the envelope was not on straight!!. He claimed that this demonstrated a 'lack of attention to detail'. Also, you never know who might read your PPRUNE submission, so its worth looking that bit harder. ;)

However, I am not going to get involved in this slagging match, and I agree it's not constructive to respond to an honestly asked question with a list of 'spolling mistooks' :)

I agree with you that the fear of the unknown can be unsettling. However, don't let it get you down as this can be very destructive. Loads of people fail these tests, and loads that have failed them are flying jets now, so don't let it knock your confidence. I to have a sciences degree, average maths skills and okay'ish hand eye co-ordination. I also have my CPL/IR, Perf A, Frozen ATPL and 251hrs, and will be starting to fly jets for a living very soon (more about this when it firms up). I can also confirm that I've sat these tests you talked about for the RAF and they didn't want me to fly for them either http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

Wee Weasley Welshman
10th Apr 1999, 00:29
Bumble old chap you have made the very common error of confusing psychometric with personality tests. You don't believe the personality tests are accurate and fear you have been rejected on their findings alone. This is highly unlikely. Often the personality tests are merely administered at the first stage for convenience. Their real use lies in the next stage when they are used to direct questioning. This is certainly the way the RAF, BA and AL work.

Don't read too much into the questions. Everyone always feels that they don't want to answer YES/NO but somewhere inbetween or 'depends'. The bias of your answer is all that they are after not the thousands of inferences you may make form the explicit YES or NO reply.

If you are worried by bias or arbitrary decision making then you would be far worse off by eliminating psychometrics and reverting to interviews only. People are far more biased across a desk than any objective testing system. You just cannot help but bring your own prejudice into recruitment selection - trust me I've been on both sides of the desk!

You'll get there in the end I am sure. As an aside, lets all keep it civil over here on Wannabes shall we - there is something of a tradition of showing the 'grown ups' how to behave and I for one would like to maintain that tradition. Happy flying - WWW

flysundun
10th Apr 1999, 10:29
OK, OK, I'd had a bad day. http://www.pprune.org/ubb/NonCGI/frown.gif

My point has been put rather more eruditely, thanks DeeTee.

I certainly would be one who would reject an application with any misspelling!

My advice is (and this is meant to be constructive) use a dictionary, spell checking is all well and good but you'll never learn to spell using it. I know my spelling is not perfect, but once upon a time I couldn't spell for torfeee, I like to think that I'm a bit better now.

Windshear
10th Apr 1999, 16:08
WWW...it all seems to me that you should just be your simple old self on the day of the tests. The truth will generally rise to the surface in spite of those who may try to hide it.

McD
11th Apr 1999, 04:53
WWW, I'm not a wannabe, but I've always enjoyed reading your posts and think that you are a very valuable contributor to PPRuNe. Keep up the good work, and best wishes to all of you!