Multi Rating vs 1179 - Confused of Wales...

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I had assumed that when you went off to do a non-approved Multi/IR course (having acquired your 700+ hours) you finished the course with a shiny new Multi Rating and an equally gleaming Instrument Rating. However, I have been told that this is not the case, and that all you do is an 1179 on a twin and then train for and take the IR test on that twin. The point being that you don’t actually have a Multi Rating.

Does this matter?

Is it best to do a separate Multi Rating and then the non-approved IR separately? Do you just take further 1179’s on commercial twins as and when job offers arrive?

I’m slightly confused here and although I will be talking to several schools I always feel that they have a vested interest in advising me a certain way…

Oh – and while I’m at it does anybody know where I can get a ‘Duchess’ panel for MS Flightsim98? I really need to get my act together as the old budget is looking a bit creaky!


Thanks in advance, WWW

[Huzzah Barking Hatstand]

www

Hmm, I stand to be corrected but... If you already have a PPL B-rating you don't have to sit an 1179 (commercial a/c type rating) test before your IR, but you won't have the multi-engine piston (land) rating on your licence. So no flying lucky punters in the Wee Weasley Welshman Air Charters Duchess.

However, if you do elect to take a twin 1179, you will be able to have the Multi-Engine Piston (land) rating added to the little blue book, this then covers all multi-engine piston a/c. You will then only have to get any new types you fly signed off in your log book.

At some point you will have to do an 1179 of some description, so I would bite the bullet and get the 1179 at the same school you are doing the IR as you will then be familiar with the a/c and you might be able to haggle over the price!

Hope this makes a little sense as it is much easier to say than write, like most things to do with the Belgrano.

cheers
Huzzah B-H

N.B. Different rules apply for a/c greater than 5700kgs and with fancy extra bits like jet turbines and pressurised cabins etc.

------------------
Push the head and pull the tail.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

So in effect then the Twin 1179 is a Multi Rating for the CPL - yes?

WWW

[CrashDive]

Yes

[greenjacket]

The 1179 gives you a twin type rating, in your case the Duchess. You don't need the b rating as such, but in my day it was cheaper to get a multi rating at PPL rates , and then do the 1179 ( at commercial rates). The 1179 is fairly straight forward, but remember you need to do the night 1179 as well.....this entails a couple of circuits including assymetric.

You would need to be able to convince the commercial training organisation that you skills are sufficient to test straight away without additional training. I wouldn't be surprised if you were asked to do a couple of extra hours training! Beware,because if you are reasonably capable you probably won't need it as long as you are current. I actually tested on an 1179 after 5.5 hours. Before anyone reacts, I know this is less than the minimum, but due to a logbook cock up we thought I had done more!

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Thank you. WWW

[Afterburner]

Hi WWW!

Don't know about a Duchess but this site has everything from a hot air balloon to DC3, Electra, Embraer, B777 to A3xx.

Computer nerd hat off and safely stowed in wardrobe! ;)

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/cranenburgh/fs6.htm


Rgds


.............AB

[This message has been edited by Afterburner (edited 09 July 1999).]

[Grandad Flyer]

I would assume that if you successfully complete the 1179 that you could use that to apply for a "B" rating anyway? I know the 1179 is type specific but I would think the CAA would give you a separate B rating should you really want one (money, paperwork allowing). Also, yes, you will get a type rating for a specific aircraft when you fly commercially, eg. B737 rating or A319/320/321 rating. You may only have one aircraft type on your licence at a time if we are talking big airliners, unless you are an Airbus pilot and then you can have the full house (cool!) - A318/319/320/321/330/340.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Can you really have the 6 types on your license all at the same time? Now there's a goal...! WWW

[Huzzah Barking Hatstand]

Until recently you used to be able to collect light a/c in the same way, C-152,172,183, PA-31,34,44 etc etc, at some expense as each addition on the licence cost. Much to the chagrin of the type collectors, all single piston and multi piston a/c are now all lumped together.

Also your CPL multi-1179 allows you to fly with B-rating priviledges on your PPL, or so it says in mine

[minuteman]

I have it that type ratings exist for "each type of multi-pilot aeroplane," and that in order to change to a different variant within the type rating further difference training is required. So explain 319/320/321 (unless you have flown all these).
JAR-FCL also states that there is no limit to the number of ratings that may be held at one time but JAR-OPS may restrict the number that can be exercised at one time.
Go figure!!!!!!!!!

[PUP]

Further to Greenjacket's posting above, I understand that the CAA has recently decided that night flying will no longer be required as part of the 1179 check. I was told this by the FTO where I am due to do a multi/IR (non-app) course in a couple of months' time.

Also, is there a minimum number of hours to do an 1179 check; if so, how many and where does it say so?

[Grandad Flyer]

Oh wise WWW, it certainly IS possible!!! I have 3 of them on my licence and am looking forward to gaining the other 2 at some point. My IR already covers them all (type specific IR).
Minuteman, I fly two of the three variants, in fact I have flown A320 with two different engine variants, A321 with one. Yes, it is possible to hold them all. The A320 "family" consists of the A319/320/321 and now the 318 I believe. I have only ever flown an A320 sim I don't know if the others exist. The weights are obviously totally different, but the flight deck layout and philosophy are the same, so you can have all the variants on your licence. Similarly, the IR is type specific and covers A319/320/321/330/340. I did my base training on an A321, but you don't need to and there is no differences course, although we did get a few photocopied bits of paper listing differences, about 3 months into line flying. The A330 is new, and the CAA have agreed for it to be held alongside the A320 family type rating, and for both to be flown. There is a couple of days course for "differences"/ type conversion. The A340 is very similar to the A330 and as such the differences course is only one day. Therefore it is possible to have all the Airbus aircraft on your licence. This is why Airbuses are so popular, and why many fleets are changing to A320/A330. All very clever (especially considering they are French).

[CrashDive]

Call me xenophic - but on the AutoBus at least those big flat pointy things, that stick out the sides and that keep it up in the air, are made in good ole' Blighty !

Anyway, the French - who are they ?

[Maxfli]

AutoBus will only let you fly two types at the same time. Why I don't know thems the rules.

The CAA will let you have a max of 3 different A/C currencies at the one time.
I have CE 402 - 421, B737 -200, B737-3/4/5/6/7/800.

A friend who flies for Air Atlantique (who have everything with wings) had to have a couple of types taken off his licence as he had managed to accumalate 5 different current types.

[Grandad Flyer]

Maxfli - what do you mean Autobus only allow you to fly two types at a time??? Are you saying the A320 family count as one (A318/319/320/321) and A330/340 as one??? Or have I just completely missed the point?

[watford]

To return to the original thread -

Under JAR-FCL1 there is no such thing as a 'B' rating. Your licence will contain Class Ratings and/or Type Ratings and these, like an Instrument or Instructor rating, will be carried forward from PPL to CPL to ATPL.

In order to gain a Class or Type rating it is necessary to pass a Skill Test in the type or class of aircraft concerned. Until 1 Jan 2000 this is achieved by passing the CAA Type Rating test (recorded on CAA form 1179). After technical alignment on 1.1.2000 there will be a different and (guess what) more complex Class Rating test conducted by a Class Rating Examiner (CRE). All Authorised Examiners will also be CREs and will conduct SE Piston (Land) Class Rating Skill Tests as part of the PPL Skill Test. To add a ME Piston (Land) Class Rating to a licence, it will be necessary to find an appropriately qualified CRE and undertake the appropriate test.

Existing 'A' and 'B' ratings will be re-issued as Class Ratings as and when the Authority undertakes any other licencing action. For example, if you add an instrument rating to your licence, the Part 1 page will be re-issued with the appropriate Class Ratings included.

A SE Class rating is valid for two years and may be revalidated either by achieving 12 hours in the 12 months preceding expiry and logging a 1hr dual flight with an FI or by undertaking a proficiency check with a CRE. A ME Class rating is valid for one year and may be revalidated only by undertaking a Proficiency Check with a CRE. Revalidations are recorded in the licence and not inthe logbook. If either rating is allowed to expire, even by one day, it must be 'renewed' rather than revalidated. This entails another Skill Test with a CRE and re-issue of the rating by the Authority (presumably attracting a further fee).

Having obtained a Class Rating, qualification on any other type within the class is a matter of undergoing differences training with an FI who will record such training in the logbook rather than the licence.

The Class ratings apply only to single-pilot aircraft and there are some, such as the Malibu, which require a Type rating.

So, WWW, you will have to pass a Class Rating Skill Test (the 1179) and that will entitle you to a ME Piston (Land) Class rating in your licence.

Questions?

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Cor blimey. Thanks. WWW

[Huzzah Barking Hatstand]

Cheers Watford, I spent about 15 mins on the phone trying to find out precisely that information from FCL and failed miserably.

The clouds part the sun breaks through and comprehension dawns!

H-B-H

[Vigilant Driver]

Magic Watford!

So as I understand it for me with my current PPL A and B licences (PA28 and PA34-100), these will become Class Ratings and once I have got my BCPL I can fly commercially (within the limits of the BCPL) in these two types of aircraft. So no 1179 needed for me if I stay on the PA28 and PA34 range?!
Once I get my 700 hours (and some night), pufff (+cash to CAA) hey presto a CPL with SE and ME Class Ratings

Hmmm sounds too easy!

What about Performance exams? I have Perf E in the bag so that will let me fly PA28s and 34s, but if I wanted to fly Islanders I would need to do the difference training (as same class but different type) but would I need to sit the Perf C?

I must have the wrong end of the stick here because I can't believe that the CAA will let you get your Class Ratings at PPL prices without the need for the 1179?

Help!

Vigi

[watford]

vigi -

No 1179 for you so long as you restrict yourself to single-pilot aeroplanes. To fly any other type in the class (e.g. a PA31 Navajo) you will require differences training, conducted by a FI/CRI and recorded in your logbook.

The matter of performance exams during the changeover to full JAA compliance has not, so far as I can discover, yet been resolved. Under JAA, all single-pilot aeroplanes are in performance group B. The general areas of performance will be examined in the CPL/ATP ground examinations and the type specific calculations will be included in type/class rating skill tests.

Beware of your statement concerning Perf E covering the Seneca. The Seneca 2 is in performance group C and, whilst you may have opened a licence with the Seneca 2 and Perf E, you may not fly the aircraft for the purposes of aerial work or public transport until you have passed Perf C. In general terms, you must have passed the appropriate performance examination for any type or variant which you fly for hire or reward.

The CAA will not let you get your class ratings "at PPL prices without the need for the 1179". In order to acquire a class rating one must pass a Class Rating Skill Test, more complex than the current 1179. The skill test for the SE Piston (Land) rating will be swept up in the new PPL Skill Test (longer and more complex than the CPL Skill Test). The skill test for a ME Piston (Land) rating will have to be taken separately and, of course, will cost!

Tha gets owt fer nowt tha knows.


[This message has been edited by watford (edited 13 July 1999).]

[capt beeky]

www
watford beat me to it, and better grammar too.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Aw Christ this JAA thing gets me down.

Given the fact that I'll start training in Oct for the Mutli/IR and I am on the CAA route I wonder how much of this will affect me. They do keep rolling these dates back.

I have nightmares about them replacing the Perf exams before I've got Perf C and A out of the way.

Sigh. WWW

[Vigilant Driver]

Thanks Watford!

Your right about Perf C, although I did think that the Seneca 1 which I fly on a PPL B was Perf E due to the lack of turbos.

By the time I do the non approved multi IR I should have Perf C anyway.

Ta!

Vigi

[MaxAOB]

So after all this; as an AFI building his hours should I do a Multi rating before 1.1.2000 and get it on my licence or just wait until I do my non approved IR sometime next year or early 2001?
Does anyone know how all this is going to work out?

[MaxAOB]

If so where is the best place in UK to get it?

[This message has been edited by MaxAOB (edited 16 July 1999).]

[A340Yumyum]

WWW, Do you need any help with your 'phone bill (465 posts!!!) - sad