Guildhall - losing the plot???

[serbsarooni]

ohmigod. Last night, I had a message from the London Guildhall University, saying that the new JAR ATPL ground school course has been postponed for the THIRD time to the middle of February.

Is anyone else out there planning on doing this course - yes, that's right, the one that was scheduled for 22nd Nov, moved to 29th Nov, moved to 17th Jan, moved to 14th Feb?????

I am SO pi**ed off, its unbelievable. I need to do this course, because it is affordable, and enables me to remain at my home while I do it. Their excuse this time is that their course notes aren't ready. How much time have they had???? I'm really worried that if I stick with the Guildhall, then they will muck me around, and keep postponing things, which I CANT AFFORD. Last time they postponed, they promsised me that it wouldn't happen again. What can I do???

Appreciate any replies from people who are having the same problem, either at the Guildhall or anywhere else.

[WX Man]

The reason they have given you may be valid but I suspect that there may be a lack of interest in their course, making it not viable for them to run it. So they have to wait until there is demand for it.

Alternatively, it could be for the same reason that ATA's isn't due to start until late March. This is because (apparently) there is still sufficient demand for the CAA courses so as to put back the JAR courses.

[ATPLstylee]

Hi Serbsarooni,

I got the same phone call last night too - oh, i was very impressed, not to say very very p***ed off!!

I have spent all day ringing, PPSC, Cabair, OATS and Bristol... OATS may well get my cash as I am a bit amazed that the Guidhall can make such a complete balls up of it.. after all an engine is an engine and plotting is plotting!

The excuse they gave me is that the CAA had bounced their notes because they missed a few topics and they were waiting for the JAA stamp before proceeding.. oh really.

So, any pointers on what to do, are you giving them up as a bad lot or hanging in there? I dont really want to fork out £4500 after NVQ for OATS/Scabair.

Discuss :)

[Richy]

Unfortunately I have some bad news I think for some people.

I too am thinking about the OATS/Cabair ATPL Modular courses but I called them regarding the availability of NVQ on the ground studies and they said that this is no longer. However NVQ on the Flying itself is still okay and I have heard that this has been extended until the end of next August (2000) - yippee.

Prehaps the inland revenue computer system might crash at midnight on the 31st of December... thus causing the Inland Revenue to forget about the august deadline for nvq's! Ashame I don't have luck like that.

[serbsarooni]

ATPLstylee
I have just had a long chat with Mr Laurie Benn, Head of the Civil Aviation Department of the London Guildhall University.

When I suggested to him that they were playing for time to get more students, he ardently denied it, telling me that they have 18 students ready to start the course. It sounds like they have had a bit of bad luck with the Campaign Against Aviation, who are being majorly pedantic, and kicked up a fuss, because the LGU only quoted their sources as opposed to included all detail to them. I'm sticking with LGU, because I want to stay in London for that bit longer, and because its CHEAP!!! Also, I found out that my second choice place, Coventry is not starting a JAR ground school course till late March - and they haven't even given any specific dates. Plus all the other places are heinously expensive, and Guildhall still accepts NVQ (what is Oxford's problem?)

Speak to Mr Benn yourself and see what he has to say - he is a friendly and extremely helpful man. I have been waiting to start since September, and it's getting seriously frustrating, but I'd rather be trained at my place of choice than somewhere else, just because I'm fed up.

Hope to see you there on Valentines Day!!

Serbs

[sd]

Richy,
NVQ is available via Cabair. I start with them on the 10th Jan for their first modular JAA course. They sent me the NVQ forms and everything seems OK so it would appear that someone at Cabair has given you duff info on the NVQ front. The course notes arrived yesterday and the look pretty good, although some sections are still in draft form.

ATPLstylee,
Cabair is only £3,500 plus vat less NVQ…...only!???

Anyone else starting Cabair on the 10th?

[Tom Oliver]

There are two schools currently JAR approved to carry out distance learning JAR ATPL theory - Oxford and 4 Forces (who wrote the course for many other schools).
They currently have a special offer £1995 for the whole course if you register quickly!
Give them a ring 01753-681757 but I believe the price goes up sharply in the new year!!

[ATPLstylee]

Hi Serbsarooni,

Good news indeed!

Thanks for the info, i have been pulling whats left of my hair out over the past few days... even 19 weeks at Scabair was beginning to look attractive (excellent course apparently) !

I will stick with LGU and see you there on the 14th.. oh and by the way mines a John Smiths !

Cheers.

If i hear of any updated ill let you know.
Anyone else on this course??

[G-SCUD]

Now hinking of JAR Distance Learning (due to fiscal restraint). Are OATS or 4 Forces the only options ? I gather OATS are about 3k and 4 Forces are 2k. Are OATS 30% better ?

Thanks y'all.

[Ballinthemiddle]

All you guys trying to do the groundschool, If I was in your position now, I would think twice about doing it at all with the market stuffed with unemployed pilots, fully qualified.
I don't want to put a downer on this thread but let's face it, it's a s...t load of cash, and the groundschool is just the start!
Look at the market conditions before going much further , is my advice - take it or leave it, but personally when I WAS in your position the market was good 1.5 years ago, now I and all of my friends wait by the post box for unanswered C.V's
A point to consider.

------------------
Centralised sphere.
( O )

[Alex Whittingham]

Laurie Benn is undoubtably telling you the truth. The JAA syllabus is massive and to produce a quality course is a major task. As far as I know several schools are now approved for the JAA ATPL including Oxford but many are using notes produced under contract for them by Four Forces. You should ask them who wrote the notes as many products will be substantially the same and you might also ask what experience they have running distance learning courses if that is your choice. All the schools will be approved in the first six months of next year.

I am pretty sure that distance learning will be the preferred option, mainly on the grounds of cost, but it will still run in at £2000 to £2500 before tax relief. Not all schools will offer distance learning packages.

The subject of tax relief is unclear. I cannot see how the traditional NVQ can be offered because this was specifically for the CAA CPL IR. VTR 2 for the over 30's might be possible but only on a course that is 'substantially full time'. The Inland Revenue ultimately decide if a course qualifies, not the school and if the school get it wrong the money has to be repaid.

One further point worth considering is, as I read the rules, if you start with a groundschool provider you have to finish with them. This means that if you have bought a bad product you get no credits for the work you have done if you switch to another provider, caveat emptor in spades!

My best advice would be that, unless there is a time factor, you would be better placed waiting until the first few exams have been sat and we have a clearer idea what is required. At the moment we can only teach to the syllabus and have no real idea which topics are important and which are not.

[ATPLstylee]

Alex,

I have a few friends who have done courses at OATS, Scabair etc and according to them the instructors have all been to Gatwick and sat the new JAR exams. Apparently Air Law is a lot different, ICAO not CAA if that makes sense, and the Instruments paper is a bit tricky. Appart from that i've heard that it won't be impossible... after all how many variations of questions can you get on the OTTO Cycle?

But who knows, as we are all aware the CAA is out to do our knees!

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For info of all those NVQ'ers out there I have got NVQ discount on the Guildhall groundschool and my JAR exams.. so check before you part with cash!

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Serbserooni,

It would seem that not only have LGU postponed the course but they have switched it around too... we now have phase 2 first with the wonders of plotting and MET.

mmm, the saga continues.

[Meeb]

Could the Guildhall delay be because they are advertising this week in Budgie News for a MCC instructor? Just a thought.

[Alex Whittingham]

Unfortunately these schools haven't given your friends the whole picture and neither did I, mainly for brevity. We do know a little about the exams for two reasons. First the CAA ran a validation exercise on a draft issue of the JAA question bank and used specialists from the schools to check the questions for content & grammar. We checked the Met, other schools did other subjects. The results of the validation were very poor, only about 25% of the questions were written in good english, matched the syllabus and had one correct answer. Some of the JAA groups that had written the questions accepted the results of the validation and rewrote the questions, some did not. The second chance we had to see exam questions involved a CAA exercise to validate their exam procedure. Instructors from all the schools were invited to take some (very) draft papers. About 20 instructors in all sat the papers and I was not one of them although we did send two men along. Results were poor with, on average, about two papers passed out of twenty in each subject. The real exams have yet to be taken, first sitting is in January.

You are right to say that some subjects will be very similar, for instance Aircraft General Knowledge effectively replaces the Tech group, and some will be very different like Air Law which is ICAO based, Human Factors which is heavy on psychology and there are new subjects like Operational Procedures. My point is that you can teach subjects even as similar as the technical ones and, for want of knowing, miss out a crucial fact or turn of phrase which is needed to answer an exam question. As we become more familiar with the JAA papers we will be able to focus the revision courses much more accurately. Right now we are shooting in the dark whatever other schools tell you.

As far as Vocational Tax Relief goes I still think you have to be careful until the IR make a ruling. The school can give VTR at point of sale but the IR auditors can refuse the claim from the school for the tax element if they think the course does not qualify. The school then has to repay the money and they would be within their rights to then approach the student for the difference (if they could). Many training providers have been asked to repay thousands and tens of thousands of pounds on invalid claims. The VTR guidance notes say 'that the attendance and study requirements of the course are expected to be such that a trainee could not be in normal full time employment for the duration of the course'. It might be worth asking OATS why they have stopped offering VTR, it cannot be to their advantage. I will make some calls today to find out more.

[ATPLstylee]

Hi Alex,

Your remarks are very interesting.

I currently have 2 options, one is to go to LGU and do the course, the other is to return to full time work and do some "distance learning" and sit the exams at the end of 2000.

I'm not stupid, nor am i Einstein either. The main thing that is concerning me is my age, at 30 i'm no spring chicken when it comes to flying so I can't really afford to put things off for ever.

However, i can see your point and appreciate that things will be a bit messy for a couple of years.

The thing I have to decide is what to do !! And thats no easy task.

By the way which school do you work for??

Cheers.

[ATPLstylee]

Further to the above..

Where would schools stand legally if after they have given students tax relief, they come begging for an additional 23% - because of an "error" on their part?

Very wobbly I would think.

[Alex Whittingham]

Legally their position would be quite good. The correct procedure for a sale where tax relief applies would be for them to raise an invoice to you for the full price of the course, have you pay the reduced price at point of sale and then claim from the IR for the tax relief. If the IR refuse the tax relief the liability for the full price is still yours. It might be difficult for them to get the money out of you but that's another story.

Have just spoken (anonymously) to the IR advisers at Bootle and their view is that a course with a compulsory study period of 30 hours a week constitutes the minimum for a 'substantially full time' course. I have also spoken to my counterpart at another school also not offering VTR on distance learning and he agrees with my interpretation and that the student could be pursued for the deficit.

There are some schemes around that attempt to include the ATPL course as part of some other qualification to gain the tax relief. Our accountants have advised us not to get involved with these. Is the LGU scheme one of those?

[Alex Whittingham]

P.S. I run Bristol Groundschool

[ATPLstylee]

The LGU is over 30 hrs a week, mon - fri 9 - 4.30 or there abouts, so that would cover "substantially full time". The course does not fit in with any other qualification.

As a point of interest OATS did offer VTR to a friend on Monday when he bought a distance learning package. The full price is £1700, he paid £1347 inc Postage.

Maybe is hould warn him he may be in for a shock later!

[ATPLstylee]

Bristol has a superb reputation. Congratulations.

I spoke to your school on monday whilst considering distance learing (still an option).. and the lady informed me that courses would not be beginning until March or later. I would be happy to wait until March and distance learn if it were realistic to expect a pass having only done 15 hours a week at home with a 2 week crammer.

What is the pass rate like for distance learners based on previous CAA exams?

[Alex Whittingham]

Pass rates on distance learning courses combined with revision courses can be very good. It is not unusual to get results like 40% full pass, 50% partial, 10% fail but these are a measure of the students' application as much as of the course. If you don't work you don't pass. We do not have solid numbers on pass rates so these are unreliable estimates and we cannot compare them to other schools who will only tell what they want to tell. Interestingly, because under JAA the school will have to stamp the exam application, the CAA will know where students have trained and they will monitor the JAA exam pass rates to see which schools are doing well and which are not. I bet you won't be able to access that information under New Labour's plans for open government!

[pjdj777]

Got a partial with Bristol from just the correpondance course.

Thanks Alex!

See you for the Tech Crammer at the end of Feb

[ATPLstylee]

Alex,

It's looks like you may have a new student!

Any chance of a discount :))

[HRhodes]

Thought I might put you straight on the OATS rumours ! We do offer VTR on our Distance Learning courses to those who have either registered for NVQ at level 4 or for those who are over 30 with VTR2. VTR ceases on the 31st August 2000, NVQ continues to three years after registration date: please remember that NVQ and VTR are two different things ! VTR is available on both modular and integrated courses if the student has registered. For those wishing to get VTR (over 30's) on their flying courses they have to prove to the Inland Revenue that they have completed a full-time course - what this means to the Inland Revenue is 16 hours per week - this is the difficulty; for those registered, no problem at all ! On the matter of Distance Learning, we were the first school to gain approval for our course and no, it was not written by Four Forces to which we take great exception !!

[pjdj777]

Hang on - I thought NVQ ends in Aug 2000 as well.

Where did you get the bit about it being 3 years after registration? (I registered in June '98).

cheers

[ATPLstylee]

Ah, I seem to remember that NVQ cut off date was 3 years after registration.

So that means I have until June 2001 if my ever shrinking brain serves me right.
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HRhodes, how is the virtual college and the distance learnig going at OATS? And why do you only offer a 2 week or 8 week section of groundschool on phase 1, 4 weeks would be perfect? ... and maybe attract my cash :)

[Alex Whittingham]

Hello Helen,

Thanks for your post. Can you give me a reference on the 16 hours rule, the IR at Bootle verbally quoted 30 hours as a minimum but it would be a great help to us all if this lower figure exists in writing. I still don't see how NVQ applies to the JAA licence, the NVQ for piloting transport aircraft specifically quoted the CAA CPL IR, can you check?

Its well worth reiterating that the OATS notes were not written by Four Forces they have been under development for a long time and at great expense. As far as I know, and I will probably be corrected on this, the only UK schools producing their own notes for JAA are Oxford, Bristol, PPSC and SFT and certainly the PPSC and Bristol package will have a CBT element, probably on CD ROM rather than web based. All others are based on notes supplied under contract by Four Forces. It is also worth emphasising that not all distance learning courses will be of the same quality, you often get what you pay for. Remember the JAA exam fees are over 700 pounds.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

You guys and gals are getting some good info here...

Thanks for the input Alex.

One for the Archives I think.

WWW