JAA Commercial In USA

[luvly jubbly]

as far as I Know, there aro no JAA recognised training ops in the USA for Commercial ratings.

Is this correct?

If so, what's happening at the Battle Creek base where BA sent their trainees recently. Are they still under CAA rules.
Are any US companies bidding for JAR approval?

I'm desperate to find somewhere cheaper to do the JAA ATPL than here in UK!

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What the Hell's that noise??

[watford]

You are correct. The only JAA training taking place in the USA is that carried out under the auspices of UK FTOs (OATS, SFT etc). Western Michigan University is training BA students under the old CAP509 rules for a UK national licence, in any case they did not take self-sponsored students.

At present JARs do not allow approval of any organisation who's main place of business is not in a JAA member state so no US FTO can offer JAA approved training.

This is all due to change but it is likely to be some considerable time before JAA training is available in the USA or anywhere else outside of the JAA member states.

[pjdj777]

I did hear a rumour that Flight Safety were going to be approved for JAA but threw their toys out of the cot for some reason, don't know how true that is, as prior to that I understood that you can only offer JAA training in a non JAA country if your head office is in a JAA country (hence Cabair buying Kissimmee and offering JAA training there).

[Crit Mach]

I've been hunting around for a JAA school in USA also. Apart from the well known OBA which, from what I've heard you probably may not wish to consider, Air Safety in Florida apparently do JAA courses along with Flight Safety also in Florida. I've checked out the Yanks' 'Student Pilot Network' website and could only find praise for these two outfits. The bumpf I've recieved from Flight Safety must be a little out of date though because they mention that UK students finish off in the UK in Dundee. I live in Dundee and while they did have an outfit here it was only for a short while. Perhaps they too had a gutful of our CAA/JAA bull****.
I think Air Safety are linked with PPSC in Bournemouth you might want to give them a bell.

Regards

[watford]

How can I make this more clear? There is not one school outside of the JAA mamber states which is approved to provide instruction for a JAA licence. Not one, none, nil, f*** all!!!

Flight Safety realised what all the other schools will realise eventually, the JAA are making it so difficult and expensive to provide training in the US that it is commercial suicide to try.

Air Safety do not provide JAA courses, Flight Safety do not provide JAA courses, nobody in the US provides JAA courses, JARs do not allow schools outside of the JAA member states to providie training for a JAA licence!!!!

Students from Flight Safety and Western Michigan University do finish their training at Dundee, with the European Advanced Air Training School. Perhaps, Crit Mach, you should get your facts straight.

"hence Cabair buying Kissimmee and offering JAA training there" - NOT! Cabair have leased a (very) small hangar and a couple of offices in the unfashionable corner of Kissimnmee, which is yet to be approved by the UK CAA for JAA licence training. Considering that there is no integral fire cover at Kissemee airport, the CAA's approval is in some doubt.

[Crit Mach]

Watford: I realise that this is a very frustrating topic but chill out a little old boy. The situation seems to be as fluid as a fluid thing at the moment.

I never factually stated that you could do a JAA CPL/IR in the USA, I too am still searching. I simply gave a couple of avenues which may be worth investigating.

You say nobody in the USA provides JAA CPL/IR training. I'm getting my info from Octobers issue of Flyer, OBA/SFT (heed my previous rider)! advertise an approved JAR modular CPL/IR FATPL for £23,270 with NVQ, the bulk of which will obviously be done in Florida. Where are you getting your info from?

You are correct that Flight Safety have pulled out of JAA training as I speculated and I was correct when I said that Flight Safety have pulled out of Dundee. The European Advanced Air Training School is owned by OATS as it says on the brass plaque on their door.

I'm awaiting bumpf from Air Safety and no they cannot provide the JAA CPL/IR course at the moment.(pivotal CAA/JAA meeting next week I was told).

I'd be interested if you hear of any developments.

Regards

[rolling circle]

The training given by OBA is on behalf of SFT who hold the JAA approval. OBA are not approved in their own right. By the same token, the JAA training given by American Flyers, The Academy and UND is on behalf of OATS. None of these US schools can take JAA students unless they are sent by the UK school which holds the JAA approval. The UK schools are wholly responsible for compliance with JAR-FCL and have to provide their own CFI to oversee the operation.

There is no US flight school approved for JAA training at present.

The situation is fluid only inasmuch as the JAR committee are soon to meet and consider whether to allow JAA training to take place outside the JAA member states, hence the final paragraph of Watford's post in this thread. When that decision is taken, it will doubtless be posted here.

You are absolutely right to say that it is frustrating when people prefer to believe unsubstantiated rumour rather than the facts taken from the appropriate regulatory documentation. Watford has my sympathy.

[This message has been edited by rolling circle (edited 17 October 1999).]

[WX Man]

Rolling circle, do you know when the results of the committee's decision will be known?

[pjdj777]

Watford

I apologise and I stand corrected. However, in my defense, I was given the impression by a Cabair instructor that they had bought the airfield at Kissimee and that JAA training would be done there.

I was, at the time, looking for training elsewhere (still considering this option) but the information is very patchy. Many South African schools are advertising their training as "JAA/ATPL" but as I understand it, although the course is, in effect, the ICAO approved scheme that JAA has followed, these schools are not approved by JAA as yet.

Several schools I contacted in SA assured me that JAA approval would be granted, and I did get independent advice that SA was way ahead of anything here, but no official clarification has been given, and looking at it, I cannot see how they can gain approval.

I guess what I'm trying to say is - don't believe everything you read/hear.

[Meeb]

Watford, I am not saying you are wrong mate, but WMU are a stand alone outfit and they have been training Aer Lingus cadets to a hybrid JAR syllabus. I know they are actually approved under 509, and they are a one of case. As for your mention of fire cover at Kissemee, it is possible for an overseas airfield to be approved by the UK CAA without an AFS, Parafield in Australia a case in point!

[StudentInDebt]

I was told that only integrated courses could be offered outside the JAR nations. Modular training was only to be conducted inside. CABAIRs package in the states has you doing a FAA PPL and converting that to JAR on your return to the UK.

[watford]

WMU are approved by the CAA to give training for a UK national licence. The fact that they are doing a 'hybrid' course is irrelevant, they have no approval to train for a JAA licence. Whichever way you cut it, no school outside the JAA is approved to give JAA training in its own right.

My information is that the JAR committee have met and have agreed that schools outside of JAA member states can give training for the JAA licence BUT...

They will have to comply in all respects with JAR-FCL1, the most restrictive part of which is that all instructors will have to hold JAA licences and instructor ratings. In this respect WMU is closest to compliance. Were a non-JAA school to apply for approval tomorrow the approval process on that first school is unlikely to be completed before September 2000. RC may have better information.

On the subject of fire cover, my comment was based in the information that approval of the OATS operation at Pompano was in the balance until it was pointed out that the local fire service had a station on the airfield boundary and could more than meet CAP168 response times. Perhaps things have changed since Parafield was approved, it was some years ago. Then again Parafield was approved for CAA training under CAP 509, we are now talking about JAA training under JAR-FCL1.

[Meeb]

Watford, whilst you are quite well informed you do not have the full picture I am afraid. WMU would not be able to comply quickly with the JAR FCL requirement to having all their instructors JAA licensed as nearly all the UK instructors have left, all the american guys would need to study and gain a JAA licence, no mean feat. Things have not changed at Parafield, they still use the metropolitian fire service, around 5 mins response time. I must confess to not being up on the JAR requirement, maybe you can say whether this will pose a problem to BAe at Parafield?

[watford]

I am perfectly well aware of conditions at WMU, I was there last week. There is no point in WMU keeping UK instructors at present since they cannot start any more courses for the UK national licence, the only European training for which they are approved, and they are, as yet, nowhere near being approved for JAA training. However, WMU and FSI were the only two US operations which showed themselves willing to comply with the requirements to gain approval under CAP 509. FSI has declared that it will not attempt JAA approval, that leaves WMU as the "closest to compliance". If you can name me a US flight school that is closer I will be very surprised.

Given the culture of the flight training industry in the US (low pay to hours builders), it is considered unlikely that US schools will be able to encourage FAA instructors to spend the time and effort required to obtain a JAA licence and instructor rating, especially now that US regionals are cutting significantly the hours requirement for the right hand seat. This leaves the schools the option of employing European instructors, at European rates of pay, causing US schools to increase their rates for JAA training and, therefore, to become significantly less competetive. The CAA rule that allowed a proportion of instructors at a US school approved under CAP 509 to hold only FAA licences does not exist under JAR-FCL1. All flight instructors, including the CFI and Head of Training, will have to hold JAA qualifications.

As to fire cover at Parafield, I could not comment without reference to CAP 168 and, to be honest, the subject is just not important enough to justify the effort.