Plane Crash Bundaberg

[rioncentu]

The wreckage of a light aircraft, believed to have been carrying two men, has been found in a cane paddock near Bundaberg.
The wreckage of the light aircraft was located near Fairymead Mill, North Bundaberg at first light on Tuesday, say police.
Fire and ambulance crews attended the scene. It is believed the two occupants did not survive the crash.
The aircraft departed from Bundaberg about 1.30pm (AEST) on Monday and was expected to travel to the Burrum River before returning via Childers and Gin Gin.
It was reported missing about 3.45pm.
The forensic crash unit is investigating

[PilotKarl_777-300]

Such a tragedy, may the pilot and his passenger rest in peace! :(

[rioncentu]

Saw it on the news tonight. Piper Light Sport. The blue one which I assume was the one that came to Bundy early on in their release.

Nasty.

[VH-XXX]

It is indeed quite nasty considering the terrain in which it came down.

http://media.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2012/03/20/crash_1_t325.jpg

There is a story to be told in the short attached video regarding the position of the wings which is also somewhat noticeable in the above picture.

Crash claims life of two | Bundaberg News | Breaking News in Bundaberg | Bundaberg News Mail (http://www.news-mail.com.au/story/2012/03/20/search-light-aircraft/)

[rioncentu]

Yes tall cane. Soft soil. Looks like it should have been survivable?

[Propjet88]

Very, very sad and ATSB should investigate this one, despite being reported as RAAus. This is a relatively new type - marketed specifically towards achieving large sales in the (rapidly expanding) GA world training market.
From the (albeit not such good quality) video and the single picture, fairly flat attitude and near vertical impact (no apparent surrounding cane damage along an approach path and engine displaced downwnwards; yaw present on impact with some but not much forward velocity (left wing displaced further forward than right wing). Flaps down but at close to 90* (possibly due to broken linkages from vertical impact force). Difficult to see from the available pictures but from apparent prop damage, engine rotating slowly at impact. Stall / spin?
If a newish GPS / flight system was fitted, the readout would be very informative.
Sincere condolences to families and friends.

[Dangly Bits]

Very sad for a close knit community up there. My thoughts are with the families and Max and the crew at Hinkler.

DB

[T28D]

What was the weather immediately before the crash ??

[vme]

At 14:30 Monday Bundaberg Airport:

Wind SE 19kt gusting to 30kt, temp 27.8, dew pt 19.3, no rain that day, QNH 1010.2.

Cloud described as 6/8 St Ac with 30,000m visibility.

[dingle dongle]

VME could you amend that again, or did you mean it?

[vme]

I wondered about the vis .. but that's what weatherzone said.

Bundaberg Ap history of weather reports (http://www.weatherzone.com.au/station.jsp?list=obsy&lt=site&lc=39128&of=of_o&ot=ot_b&dt=19%2F03%2F2012)

[ReverseFlight]

Stall / spin?Might have been a flat spin.
Just an educated guess.
RIP.

[baswell]

Lose the engine, flare out above the level of the cane, stall & spin. Or at least drop a wing and the nose in the stall; would account for only one wing being crumpled.

Looking behind the aircraft, it doesn't look as if they dragged it through the cane.

[T28D]

It has all the hall marks of a loss of control in IMC very sad

[baswell]

Playing with the URL of that images give a larger one:

http://media.apnonline.com.au/img/media/images/2012/03/20/crash_1.jpg

Seeing as one blade of what looks like a 3-blade Woodcomp is completely unscathed, I'd say the engine was not running at time of impact. (For those not in the know, thanks to the gearbox a Rotax will not windmill, it just stops.)

[Clare Prop]

Very sad...RIP

Perhaps Piper foresaw problems with this aircraft which they haven't been associated with since early last year...it wasn't a "Piper" as such.

Piper divorces light sport partner (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/piper-divorces-light-sport-partner-351852/)

[rioncentu]

Bas - well done.

So an engine failure should have been OK in that terrain. I hadn't considered a loss of control in my "should have been survivable" comments.

I guess spinning in = high vertical speed & low forward speed hence it "looks" sort of intact.

Nasty

[VH-XXX]

Clare Prop. - look at the rear of the aircraft, it clearly says "Piper" so it is indeed a Piper...

[bob johns]

I have been out of the industry for 21 years and for the 25 years prior,both in commercial operations and private,I never undertook a flight without opening a SARwatch. Have the rules so slackened to allow un notified flights to take place, without consideration of safety? Sadly sar probably wouldnt have affected the outcome, but at least someone would have been looking.

[Clare Prop]

OK it's Wiki but it was not designed or built by Piper, just distributed by them for a short while.

CZAW SportCruiser - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CZAW_SportCruiser)

[baswell]

Have the rules so slackened to allow un notified flights to take place
Yes they have and thank Orville for that!

[VH-XXX]

OK it's Wiki but it was not designed or built by Piper, just distributed by them for a short while.


The aircraft is a Piper Sport. It was sold as a Piper at the time and it is a Piper.

The aircraft is now sold as a Sport Cruiser.

Similarly the Cessna Corvalis and Cirrus SRS fall into the same category.

[Ndegi]

From the photos there appears to be an absence of a roll-bar of any significance. If this Sports Cruiser/Piper Sport had caught in the cane and flipped inverted, how would surviving occupants get out? Taking a line from the glare shield to the rear of the cockpit, two big blokes would have their heads and shoulders in the mud. So how do you get out when you are compressed by the aircraft and limited by the body mass of the person along side you?

[baswell]

From the photos there appears to be an absence of a roll-bar of any significance.
Do not underestimate the strength of a steel re-inforced acrylic dome structure.

But yes, getting out of a flipped aircraft is always an issue, especially a low wing. It doesn't take much to bend things so that doors won't open anymore.

[DickyPearse]

It looks like it came in from the left side of the picture and not in the direction of the nose, hence the lack of a path in the crop field

[VH-XXX]

Ndegi - I would have edited this but I can't upload right now.

Draw a line from the top of the canopy where it latches to in front of the dash.

You are exactly right, not much hope if she flips. You can't extend the line to the front of the cowl because that's not structural and you can't draw a line to the tip of the tail because that goes into the mud.

So to answer your question - ye would have little hope of survival in that scenario, particularly if water was involved. If the canopy smashed, that is a different story again. Most FAR certified low wing canopy style aircraft have a glass smashing safety hammer installed. I know of a particular aircraft where it is stored behind the passenger seat and as a result, solo flight is not permitted from the right seat because the pilot would not be able to reach the hammer. Cirrus would be another example of this.

http://www.yenra.com/wiki/images/Piper-sport.jpg

http://www.yenra.com/wiki/images/Piper-sport.jpg

[Oakape]

It doesn't take much to bend things so that doors won't open anymore


It is even worse in these aircraft, along with most newer low wing designs, as they don't have doors, or even a sliding canopy. The canopy opens upwards, hinged at the front.

If you flip one of these aircraft you would be in a spot of bother until someone arrived to help from the outside. At least they are fairly light.

[LeadSled]

Folks,
Everybody should carry a perspex breaker/safety knife.
A good one is the Smith and Wesson "Ist Response", available here from people who sell search and rescue and fire fighting gear.
Don't buy one over the internet, it ain't worth the trouble with Customs, they think it is a flick knife ( not only some aviation regulations are crazy) and you don't save enough for the hassle ---- indeed ( at US$1 = AUD0.95 (when I bought mine) there was less than $10 in it.
Tootle pip!!

[Frank Arouet]

Have the rules so slackened to allow un notified flights to take place

This statement has me lost for words.

Those rules were improved by the removal of full reporting, and even then within the training area, then 50nm, being exempt. Things that were a hangover from WW2 OPS, and REGS. (Sir). Something like medical exams for PPL's and a CASA demand to extort cash to then say even that's OK.

Can't help wondering if this poster is an ardent ADSB supporter who needs constant surveillance.

I really pity general aviation below A010 if old blokes who are out of the business for 21 years................. well enough said!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Drift......20 to the left to avoid TS....
Those rules were improved...
Maybe....

These 'limitations' were introduced as part of the 'evolutionary' process of trying to 'improve' air safety when guys got into'Heap Big Trouble'...and died.
There was a 50nm rule for flight notification, then there wasn't.
Then when a 310 disappeared on a flight from GTH to BK on a 'bad' day it was re-introduced = there was.
The 310 wreck was found on the reverse side of a hill not too far from GTH - the search had concentrated around the Blue Mntns.... = There was again.

And so it was - for most of our 'silly rules'.....

Let me tell you the introduction of the 'Area QNH' scheme vs the older 'FL' , set '1013', system once established in the cruise....that's a good story for another time....

Full Reporting was a CHOICE for VFR PVT / AWK flights but mandatory for IFR, VFR CHTR, and flights in 'Designated Remote Areas' IF one did not have an ELT. = you HAD to carry HF.
IF you had an ELT, then you could transit the area on a Sartime, for PVT and AWK.
But you had to have something....

Are we safer now?
Is it better?
Is it cheaper?
Is it 'Less hassle'..??

You decide whatever suits you.....'Tis a rhetorical question....
Turn 20 deg left skip. to back on course...

:ok::ok:

[ozbiggles]

It has always puzzled me that so called professional pilots find it so hard to notify people what they are doing.
Flying out of Canberra a few days back when the weather was non vfr around the capital heard this conversation....give or take
ahhhhhh Canberra approach ABCD request clearance
ABCD where are you?
ahhhhhhh blah blah
ABCD did you file a flight plan
ahhhhhhhhh no, coudn't do that I'll give you the details.
ABCD are you VFR or IFR
ahhhhhhhhhh VFR
ABCD Cb is non VMC at the moment.
ahhhhhhhhh wasn't aware of that......how long for, when did that happen?
ABCD For about the last 4 hours and the next 4 hours....so you don't have any weather or notams either? (what a classic from the ATCer!!!!)
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..........

[bob johns]

13000 HRS and never needed anyone to come looking for me. Must have done something right,cant have been just luck.

[Runaway Gun]

Maybe it's just because you yelled all the time... :ok:

[Dogimed]

Is Bob Johns an old pilot or a bold pilot ..13000 hours says old.. but.... he's bold...

[baswell]

Are we safer now?
Yes, the standard "fatalities per 100,000 hours" has, on average, been steadily decreasing over the years in all segments of aviation.

Besides, it's not just not mandatory anymore, nobody is interested. You go and try reporting on a filed VFR plan in class G, even if flying out in the sticks. ATC won't want to hear of you. Best you can do is a SARTIME and cancelling it over VHF is frowned upon too.

[VH-XXX]

Just call ya mum when ya take off. She'll call the coppers if you don't turn up for morning tea. Easy.

[fencehopper]

The aircraft was reported overdue by the flying school with which a SAR time would have been lodged. As reported in the press.

Some time back the RAAus promoted leaving your flight information with someone responsible including who to contact if you do not arrive at the nominated time. Be it with your flight school/club or your family ETC.
Also recommended if you have the time, activate your PLB before you crash is a good idea. you can always ring Canberra and cancel if you make it down OK.

FH

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

"SARTIME with MUM"...

Can be quite effective.

We used to have a saying ...'No Sar, No Details = No Sense'....

Cheers:ok:

[Pinky the pilot]

Slight thread drift.
Are we safer now?

I started learning to fly back in early 1982 when blokes like Griffo inhabited strange looking offices at airports, casting steely eyed glances over things called 'Flight Plan Forms,' and sternly pointing out errors, omissions and the like on the abovementioned forms.

Full Reporting VFR was the only flight plan filed in the Flying School I flew with, with Sartime the only acceptable alternative.:=

NoSar No Details was considered poor airmanship.

An equally pertinent question Griffo might be,
Do we feel any safer now?:hmm:


We used to have a saying ...'No Sar, No Details = No Sense'...

Just saw that Griffo. That was the exact saying my Instructor (Peter D) used.:ok:

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Interesting line that this thread has taken.

I guess I am now considered to be an "old guy"! Certainly I got my Unrestricted PPL back in 1973 when weather, notams and full reporting was required for flights more than 50 nm from the departure aerodrome and plans were lodged in person at the briefing office or over the phone to a briefing officer. Commercial flightplans were scrutenised centrally and it was not unusual to get a call via Flight Service to inform you that something about your flightplan didn't fully comply with the regs (usually fuel and reserves) and "What are your intentions"!

I now mostly fly on an IFR flightplan with similar full reporting requirements but I have flown lots with Mrs Dr holding a Sartime (with appropriate phone numbers beside the phone at home) or the office of a charter operator doing the same, and YES, I have flown "No SAR, no details" on many occassions also.

Do I feel less safe now than in the "old days"? NO, I can't say that I do, although I do think that there has been a slight reduction in the safety level due to less effective traffic knowledge for IFR flights in Class G airspace due to the reduction in flightplanning requirements and traffic advisories due to the loss of Flight Service.

There are certainly more poorly trained and ill-disciplined "Wallies" (no, not THE Wally!) flying around in various toy aeroplane contraptions.

As for the topic of this thread - when I learnt to fly at Archerfield in the 70s the first that anyone knew an aeroplane on a training flight in the designated training area (a VERY large area) was missing was when someone at the flying school realised that the student/instructor hadn't come back. I don't recall there being any SAR reporting in the training area.

Dr :8

[Up-into-the-air]

The new system is not anywhere near perfect.

On 5 occasions, I have arrived at a destination on a VFR upgrade to IFR, lodged in the air with ATC, due weather changes and to be told on arrival when calling CANCEL SAR

"We don't have any details for you"

TRY That!!

By the way, traffic was given - "No traffic" on the upgrade, which was less than 20nm, BUT FULL IFR, with cloud base at 1000AGL and cloud to 6000FT - [as a bank]

[Aimpoint]

Depends on what you are trying to cancel - SARTIME or SARWATCH.

If you were trying to cancel a SARWATCH, surely the penny dropped about the IFR plan change when you were not given any traffic information for your arrival. Or do you mean HF Flightwatch didn't have your IFR plan details?

[Aussie Bob]

I fly a STOL airoplane
I have a hand held and a fixed EPIRB
I have a first aid kit, water and rations, warm clothes, something to read and a keen sense of survival, particularly in the boondocks. On top of that I have a mobile and hand held VHF ...

If any of you flight plan promoting ninnies think I am in need of a filed plan, I respect your opinion but disagree. I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa!

[VH-XXX]

f any of you flight plan promoting ninnies think I am in need of a filed plan, I respect your opinion but disagree. I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa!

Well you obviously haven't tried to fly into CTA anywhere near Melbourne then!

[YPJT]

A filed flight plan or even just a flight note detailing your proposed route just might make it easier to coordinate the initial search sectors in the unlikely event your PLB, VHF handheld or mobile phone aren't working or worse still, you are incapable of operating any one of them.

[Wally Mk2]

Dead right 'XXX' ML are notorious at saying 'clearance not avail'

Sunday last,clear skies middle of the day airport you could shoot a canon along any taxiway & not hit even a bird & surrounding airspace very quiet as far as I could tell & poor little chopper asking for transit thru ML was told 'clearance not avail' end of story!:sad:
Off topic I know but yr taxes at work !!!!

:8Dr just saw yr ref to 'Wallies'........good job you where politically correct there:ok:


Wmk2

[jas24zzk]

IFR plan - Not in the system
The new system is not anywhere near perfect.

On 5 occasions, I have arrived at a destination on a VFR upgrade to IFR, lodged in the air with ATC, due weather changes and to be told on arrival when calling CANCEL SAR

"We don't have any details for you"

TRY That!!

I can beat that with one even more worrysome....
I did a mission a while back (not long enough for major regulatory changes to have had an effect), YCEM - YMIA.

The Wx was such, that I thought it would be a good idea to put in a full plan (VFR in G) and SARTIME. This proved really helpful when the Wx forced me into CTA, and due to the fact I had a plan in the system, I was able to get the required clearances with no fuss. When the dust finally settled and I recalculated my arrival for YMIA, I realised i was going to blow my sartime by 20 odd minutes. No trouble, plenty of fuel, dialled up flightwatch, submit an amended Sartime. New sartime readback pefect, alls good.

Arrival overhead YMIA, call up to cancel Sartime to be told that no sartime was held for me.... WTF!!! :{
If things had gone pearshaped for me, what hope of help did i truly have? I did everything in my power to ensure the system had the best infornmation, including my exact location when i amended my sartime, to ensure I got help in the fastest time should i need it, and instead of an update, i got cancelled.


Are we safer? i think not..those guys have too many buttons to push now, mistakes are too easy.


WTF happened to my SARTIME!!!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Yes, we have successfully 'drifted' away from the tragedy and speculation....none of which does anyone any good...really..!!

AS Some 'learned colleagues have already said,...e.g......

"Dead right 'XXX' ML are notorious at saying 'clearance not avail'"

"I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa! "

You could prepare to be eddycated!!!

Hmmmm.... EXCEPT for the 'Marginal VFR' bit....which 'MAY' just get you a guernsey IF you declared the Marginal VFR bit...you have obviously not been to YPPH either.....

Oh Dear....:{:{:(:(

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

And Hello to you too Aussie Bob,

The last 'fatal' I was involved with as an FSO, was also a STOL aircraft, equipped with ELT etc......IT was a Chopper. Bell 47 type design.

However, Murphy's Law, said that 'today is the day I am going to Challenge you!'

And when the guy crashed onto a ridge half-way down a gorge, the impact flattened his seat, under which his ELT was located and squashed the antenna so that it transmitted ONLY HORIZONTALLY....which was fortunate...LATER! The following day when another chopper was transitting said gorge at low level....

As I remember, one died, and one with a spinal injury CRAWLED ALL NIGHT thru the Kimberley landscape to his Camp to get help!!

Just think about your claim...IF F.S. Had have had his Flight Plan.....

There is a whole lot more to this story, but, in my opinion, this is all you need to know for now...

WE have ALL flown NO SAR at times...except for the 'SAR with MUM', that is....

You may have indeed, been 'fortunate'...and avoided Fate.
In my "Old Age", I figure I got here do doing lotsa 'things' right, as have many others on these forums.
I admire your courage. (?)

:ok:

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Aimpoint, Upintheair , et al, Hi.

I think you may find that under 'Dick's Improved System', your HF Flightwatch service does not actually hold ANY flight plan details....

"FlightWatch', whether you contact them via HF or VHF is irrelevant - is simply a communications 'relay' system OR an information system... they can access their computor (NAIPS) and pass you weathers / NOTAMS etc on request.
You tell Flightwatch something, and they simply 'pass it on' to whomever....

Your Position Report goes to ATC.

Your SARTIME Cancellation call is simply relayed to CENSAR.

'Flightwatch' are NOT the ones holding it.
Its not like the 'Good Ole Days'....As far as I am aware....I'm not 'in it' now, so I could be wrong...but - I don't think so...:}

(NO reflection on the guys & gals at Flightwatch...they can only do as instructed... and the 'system' such as it is, allows...)

Cheers - and you be careful out there.....:uhoh::eek:

[Ultralights]

I think current technology will and, for me, already is providing a sarwatch, via a Spot GPS tracker/transmitter.

before departure, start the tracker, it will send a position report every 5 mins back to the people holding my sartime, they can track my flight live. (via google maps) if my track suddently stops in the middle of nowhere, they will notice within 5 mins, if i havnt already triggered the SOS epirb alarm. simple easy to use.

why cant such technology be adapted for regular aircraft use. and monitored from a central location? the infrastructure is in place and operational, it works for all other outdoor types of activities. why not?

[mcgrath50]

I've found many times that I will either amend my SARTIME or Flight Plan and then when calling for a clearance or to cancel the SARTIME find that they don't have any record of my changes, just my original details.

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Ultra....

We HAD the infrastructure to do just that and much more.......:{:{

Alas.....:ugh::{

p.s. Thanks for the redundo, Dick.....)

:ok:

[Super Cecil]

Yoo think GA would support full reporting again ex FSO? RAA as well? The world has changed, you haven't. Your Dick bashing is getting tiresome.

[T28D]

Free in G a great advance almost Free Flight

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Cecil,
Well, we are paying about as much now as we did then....so why not?
Airservices CAN afford to give GA a whole lot more...but...the fees raised by them are returned to the Govt....sorta like a tax really.
I pay. You pay. We don't get the equivalent service.

Or if you're a croppie, I can see that you don't require any more than your guys on the ground for your SAR / services, but there is a whole GA Industry out there paying through their fuel, for a no-service.

And, yes, I give Dick the credit for it - and that is true - it was his decision / policy.

I have met the man, and now I truly thank him for the 'redundo' pack - what is wrong with that??

Cheers :=

[SW3]

Firstly what a tragedy this is, very sad to see. Like all accidents lets learn from it, after all our rules and regs are written in the blood of those before us.
As for full reporting, VFR clearances etc look at the whole perspective. ATC are extremely short staffed. Add to this there are more flights in the air than ever before. If your clearance is denied it won't because they can't be bothered. Just because it looks clear where you are doesn't mean we're not stuck in a que on the ground or flying around in the stack holding. The ATC guys here are good and if you're in dire straits with WX they WILL help.
At the end of the day they need more funds, more controllers and more frequencies like Flightwatch. As there are more planes in the air I can tell you there often just isn't the time to have someone submitting details via radio, especially at busy airports where you're fighting to get a word in anyway. That's why they want the phone/fax/net to be used as much as possible.
At the end of the day be practical. Going for a local flight? Probably best to at least tell someone but filing a plan is rediculous. Going for a long flight? File a plan with a SARTIME and cancel it via phone when you get there if possible. You can submit a plan easily via phone too or if on NAIPS you'll get a submission note so you know it's in the system.
The level of notification depends on where you're going. And yes near CTA it will make life a lot easier if you have a plan in and suddenly need to use controlled airspace as they will have some idea where you're going.