UPS buys TNT! [Archive] - PPRuNe Forums

SMT Member

19th Mar 2012, 00:03

No, you bloody well don't. By you own admission, you're looking forward to seeing more US registered aircraft flying in Europe. That means you look forward to replace the current airline with UPS' own US-registered aircraft, leaving hundreds of TNT people out of a job.

Do notice how nobody has stooped to your level by picking up on the "intra-Europe" bait.

On another note:

I worked for a relatively short while at TNT, and have a mum who worked for many years with UPS. The two company cultures can't be any more different, considering they're very much in the same industry (express trucking companies with airlines on the side), and the differences are both broader and deeper than what ABX and DHL experienced. I wish the guys in TNT the best of luck; chances are they'll be shafted royally in the coming months. UPS got enough money to burn, but in this economy and with hindsight in mind, my money's on UPS burning through hundreds of millions in a short time.

cargosales

19th Mar 2012, 00:18

Hmmm .. I'm thinking that a few people might just be sharpening their harpoons right now.

I'm happy to be proved wrong but I'm not sure that overly triumphant comments from those with seriously brown noses, or even worse tongues, will go down terribly well at the moment :uhoh:

Good luck to those guys and gals who will inevitably lose their jobs as a result of this takeover.

BrowntailWhale

19th Mar 2012, 00:20

TNT already said that they were going to massively downsize their own airline and increase the use of ground transport regardless of UPS buying them. So most of those TNT Airways guys would be out of a job no matter what.

UPS' MO is to not buy airlines or take on massive amounts of new employees. They want the customer base and the volume that those customers bring.

Since UPS is the purchaser, it's normal to want our own airline to do any additional flying that will result.

fingal flyer

19th Mar 2012, 00:31

I have always met my peers from Fedex and UPS with respect at security etc all over Europe understanding these guys/girls are just working for a living and doing nothing wrong because the USA is 1 country and Europe is a bunch of seperate sovreign states,so call it what you want but it aint united.
BrowntailWhale you have changed that,you may feel good,you may feel proud but your attitude has let you down and get what you may at least I know I never had or will have that kind of attitude towards my fellow professionals regardless of where they come from.

edie

19th Mar 2012, 02:05

There is lots of uncertainty, but hopefully a decent deal has been worked out for TNT employees. Star taking over TNT Airlines might be a viable option. Anybody know the number of TNT pilots that are TNT employees versus working for contractor companies?

BrowntailWhale

19th Mar 2012, 02:51

I think this is a dynamite of a deal for UPS to grow in Europe. Hopefully UPS will grow there organically.

8sugarsugar

19th Mar 2012, 06:42

Wouldn't it cost UPS a lot less to have TNT pilots fly the newly brown painted aircraft in Europe on the TNT certificate? Maybe you'll even see UPS grow TNT and outsource a lot of the international flying to TNT.

Last time I checked, the pilot contract at UPS was best in the industry and I'm sure mngt is looking everywhere to break it.

be careful what you wish for brown shorts.

larryboy

19th Mar 2012, 08:38

Polax 52, they already do.

8sugarsugar

19th Mar 2012, 08:44

i thought that American Atlas pilots were thrown out of their BA Cargo contract with the formation of Global Supply Systems?

8sugarsugar

19th Mar 2012, 08:50

Already, Emirates and TNT are in bed together, you can bet UPS freight is already flown on Emirates spare capacity.

People forget that Emirates is actually the 3rd biggest cargo airline in the world in terms of international freight miles.

airpolice

19th Mar 2012, 09:17

At the risk of being shot down for sticking my nose in:

I don't get paid to fly, I do it because I enjoy it. I fund my flying by running a business. I need to make choices about the business, and the choices I make determine whether or not I can pay my mortgage, eat, provide for my family and fly.

TNT is not a victim here, nor are the employees. This is the way it is in business. Why on earth should UPS "look after " the TNT people at the expense of UPS staff?

Can you all honestly say that if you worked for UPS you would rather see the company go under when someone else buys it rather than see the TNT operation get swallowed and provide you with work?

This is the business food chain. Eat or get eaten.

As in all business mergers / takeovers. An often overlooked point is that the company have a greater responsibility to those who are staying than to those who are going. I doubt it will all be one way, with TNT guys and girls being dumped. This is a great opportunity for UPS to trim dead wood and cherry pick the brightest of the TNT staff. Sadly, for some, it is also an opportunity to just flush out the experienced, higher paid and valuable, but costly, senior staff.

That's just the way it is.

If you prevent it happening by industrial action and causing grief, then standby for DHL or FedEx eating both of you when the customers jump ship.

kbrockman

19th Mar 2012, 09:34

By the way TNT was doing business during the last couple of years this
buyout by UPS might well be its only possible salvation.
Sure many people at TNT are going through difficult and uncertain times, not least
the pilots at LGG and other TNT bases and I really hope this all works out for them but lets be realistic here, this wasn't going to last like this forever.

Of all things the TNT people in the US and the TNT base in Brazil are most likely to suffer the most, that's where all of the losses are generated.
TNT Europe is a profitable business, it could very well turn out to be not too bad for most of its EU operations, however I think LGG will suffer substantially.

742

19th Mar 2012, 10:38

How am I being a prick? Because I'm proud of my company and it's purchase of
a lesser rival and with it the increase of browntail flying intra-Europe? I
think not.

Yea, you are.

TNT may have issues (as does UPS), but the people who make up the organization are your fellow pilots, fellow human beings, and are deserving of respect.

Your attitude is some of what makes other nationalities despise we Americans. And you need to spend some quiet time in front of a mirror if you don't get that.

Acid-drop

19th Mar 2012, 10:47

however I think LGG will suffer substantially. They just said it will not.
"Liège will have a role in the european network, although it may be a different role than now" from belga news report.
" UPS (http://www.nasdaq.com/symbol/ups) recognizes the significant value of TNT Express' operations, assets and people in Liege and will seek to continue the future utilization of these operations, assets and people within the combined group."

But it's still easy to lose 25% of trafic ...

Flightmech

19th Mar 2012, 10:53

edie

19th Mar 2012, 10:54

Logistics Markets: Express & Mail (http://www.transportintelligence.com/content/logistics-markets/express/)

UPS buys TNT Express for $5bn
19/Mar/2012 by Staff Writer.

After years of rumours and a comparatively short offer-period, UPS has agreed to buy TNT Express for €5.16bn/US$6.77bn.

In an announcement this morning (Monday 19th), the boards of the two companies issued a joint statement outlining the price and the conditions of the sale. The statement also included a report on the position of the dominant shareholder, PostNL, committing it "irrevocably" to the deal.

It appears that TNT Express will continue as a separate entity for some time rather than its assets being wholly absorbed into the European divisions of UPS. The statement asserted that "all employee rights, covenants, and benefits under current ownership will be respected." This may refer to agreements with the workforce over pensions and other benefits which were rumoured to be an important aspect of the negotiations to buy the company.

Importantly the statement also continues; "UPS undertakes to create a meaningful centre of excellence for marketing, sales, and operations in the Netherlands. UPS recognizes the significant value of TNT Express' operations, assets and people in Liège and will seek to continue the future utilisation of these operations, assets and people within the combined group." This appears to suggest that the headquarters of UPS in Europe will move to Amsterdam and more clearly that the Liege hub will remain in operation. The implications for existing UPS operations in Europe may be significant.
UPS is financing the deal out of a mix of US$3bn in cash and "new debt arrangements".

kbrockman

19th Mar 2012, 11:25

That looks , at first glance, as not being too bad for LGG and Europe as a whole.
Anybody have news about TNT ops in the US, Brazil and Asia, the 3 money-loosing markets (total = 500 million$ operating losses ,at least) ?

Let's hope they don't silently get the shaft with all the focus apparently on the EU TNT branche.

6000PIC

19th Mar 2012, 11:39

BrowntailWhale , your arrogance and ignorance are revealing. You may feel that your company deserves congratulations for purchasing a failing operation in a financially difficult and demographic time bomb that is Europe , but you may discover that UPS recieves nothing but lawsuits, EU Anti trust misery , and compounding merger related " costs. " in return. The money spent on lawyers and consultants will be eye- watering. While UPS / TNT are busy developing " synergies " , the other logistics providers will be busy poaching all those valuable customers. The real prize is a developed Asian/Chinese network , which as we all know , is at the whim of the Chinese Communist Party and can be " reconfigured " at short notice. America`s empire , along with it`s moral authority , business acumen and respect in the world is unfortunately in decline. Good luck , you`re going to need it. :ok:

One Outsider

19th Mar 2012, 11:48

Those press reports could indicate that there will be less browntail N numbered jets flying in Europe. Which would be deliciously ironic, if one was so inclined.

Good luck to all involved.

Dihaz

19th Mar 2012, 11:52

Hopefully with the ratification of EASA/JAA this year, FAA pilots and N-reg aircraft will not be able to fly in Europe freely as they do at the moment - and I welcome it…!!

BraceBrace

19th Mar 2012, 13:01

TNT is not a victim here, nor are the employees. This is the way it is in business. Why on earth should UPS "look after " the TNT people at the expense of UPS staff?

Because TNT up to today is still bigger in Europe than UPS is? UPS is bigger worldwide but can't compete with TNT in Europe. So why should TNT people have to pay the bill?

Thank you capitalism then I would say. The guy with more money buys whatever he can afford. He buys to be big. But the "bigness" was created by other people. Those you want to see fired now?

Intruder

19th Mar 2012, 13:01

i thought that American Atlas pilots were thrown out of their BA Cargo contract with the formation of Global Supply Systems?
I believe Polax 52 was referring to the closure of the AACS base at STN, years after the formation of GSS. AACS consisted of European pilots flying Atlas schedules, not to be confused with the GSS flights for BAWC.
Not quite...

AACS was originally formed by Atlas as a union-busting group, prior to Atlas pilots having a union contract, to fly the BAWC contract with non-union, mostly European pilots. They quickly expanded to non-BAWC flying, taking other jobs from American pilots.

GSS was a 2nd iteration of AACS, with many of those same pilots flying the same BAWC contract with the same airplanes, now under UK registry. It was formed just as the Atlas pilots were reaching a contract agreement. AACS still flew backup for GSS until AACS was closed.

Just recently Atlas tried to use GSS in their MIA-South America flying, using the 744s that were replaced by the -8s for BAWC. That was clearly prohibited by the Atlas pilots' contract, and didn't last very long.

If Europeans were/are so keen to retain the BAWC/TNT flying for Europeans, then why didn't Europeans buy TNT? Why didn't Europeans form GSS (or otherwise bid the BAWC contract) on their own, instead of Atlas having to shop around for a UK grocery store heir to put up some money and pretend he was the controlling interest?

Intruder

19th Mar 2012, 13:06

Hopefully with the ratification of EASA/JAA this year, FAA pilots and N-reg aircraft will not be able to fly in Europe freely as they do at the moment - and I welcome it…!!
I suspect the EU carbon tax scheme will do more to cause non-European carriers to pull out of Europe than any EASA/JAA ratification. What does EASA have to do with "open skies" or "freedom of flight" treaties?

742

19th Mar 2012, 13:10

I believe Polax 52 was referring to the closure of the AACS base at STN,
years after the formation of GSS. AACS consisted of European pilots flying Atlas schedules, not to be confused with the GSS flights for BAWC.

Just as an aside, since it has no relevance to the UPS/TNT situation, AACS (then renamed AABO) also employed American pilots. And in the here and now Atlas employs a significant number of pilots with European passports.

The structure and politics of AACS/AABO were complex, but most of all it was a mess.

Flightmech

19th Mar 2012, 13:59

Why didn't Europeans form GSS (or otherwise bid the BAWC contract) on their own, instead of Atlas having to shop around for a UK grocery store heir to put up some money and pretend he was the controlling interest?

Off topic, all good in theory but everyone knows that BAWC were pulling the strings. If BAWC wanted to give the flying to someone else they would have. Instead, they wanted to stay with Atlas so the creation of what is the virtual airline of GSS was born, a company with no assets apart from a few desks and chairs and a majority 51% UK investor that is/was Mr Tesco to keep it legal.

Back on topic, I hope all goes well for the TNT boys and girls in this takeover/merger.

3pointlanding

19th Mar 2012, 19:56

There is always a lot of angst and worry when a company is bought, especially when the one doing the buying is an overseas company. UPS has revealed their reasoning for buying TNT and it certaintly looks reasonable. But the other side of the coin is: Why is TNT selling the airline?. Good question and UPS may be a savior, not an interloper.

hotelmodemetar

19th Mar 2012, 21:55

FedEx for sure does not allow any European operator to fly jet aircraft :ugh:

...But UPS seems to allow Maersk StarAir to fly some B767 all over Europe :ok:

http://storage.canalblog.com/26/75/594547/71323488.jpg

SMT Member

19th Mar 2012, 22:55

FedEx for sure does not allow any European operator to fly jet aircraft :ugh:

One of the Turkish haulers (MNG or ACT), who by most standards qualififes as an European operator, are doing a run to TLV. Can't remember if it's for UPS or FedEx, but I'm leaning towards the latter.

Besides, UPS are going to run into ownership issues with TNT Airways. The rules say, by and large, max 49% of shares and no direct control for a non-EU company. This means the airline will have to be spun off, and it can either be terminated, handed over to someone else and forgotten, or handed over to someone else along with a long-term contract to operate x number of aircraft.

But TNT and UPS are both trucking companies with airlines added on as a bit of an afterthought. The real expansion is therefore likely to happen on the ground, and even with consolidation and all that's going to mean lots of jobs for European hauliers and at sorting/distribution centres. Which is all good, except if you're working in LGG and/or at TNT Airways or any of it's airport stations - consolidation on the aviation side is likely to outstrip growth and therefore jobs will be lost, on the ground and in the air in the short to medium term.

Flightmech

19th Mar 2012, 23:02

It's not for FedEx. FedEx fly their own jets to TLV.

Dufo

20th Mar 2012, 00:11

One of the Turkish haulers (MNG or ACT), who by most standards qualififes as an European operator, are doing a run to TLV. Can't remember if it's for UPS or FedEx, but I'm leaning towards the latter.

That would be our Cologne based A300, flying for UPS.

SMT Member

20th Mar 2012, 06:49

That would be our Cologne based A300, flying for UPS.

Thanks for clearing that up.

Halfbaked_Boy

20th Mar 2012, 06:52

There are some posters on here who are being WAY oversensitive.

BrowntailWhale was clearly not gloating in any way, shape or form, and to be frank, the only sensible post on this thread was made by airpolice.

Pride does not make one a prick, even if it is without consideration of others.

Best foot forward

20th Mar 2012, 08:31

Can't wait for more browntail N numbered jets flying in Europe!

HBB if that isn't gloating what is it. It is grossly unfair that N reg acft can fly unhindered round Europe when European reg'd acft cannot do the same in the US. UPS can buy 100% of TNT but TNT would only have been able to buy 49% of UPS. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months/years.

Good luck to all involved.

Oh and Browntailed whale N is not a number.

despegue

20th Mar 2012, 10:06

Can't wait for all brown tailed aircraft to be thrown OUT
And that time is coming my friends...

kbrockman

20th Mar 2012, 13:50

I think Belgium law is in your favour any way, you may even get a full 4 years salary in payout, or more. Your signature on that piece of paper is going to be worth a lot to them, more than you would believe.

If your scenario is anywhere near correct ,I think most employees are fresh out of luck.
Up until last year it indeed used to be so that an employee with a substantial
amount of years of service with a Belgium based contract can get a lot of months of pay when the contract is prematurely terminated, even better with mass layoff scenario's.

But all that has changed dramatically last year, now I believe it is severely capped, the only way they would get such high payout is when they come to an agreement with UPS .

Fr8Dog

20th Mar 2012, 13:54

AMSTERDAM -(Dow Jones)- Dutch package shipper TNT Express NV (TNTE.AE) Tuesday denied a report about the potential loss of up to 20,000 jobs following the takeover by U.S.-based United Parcel Service Inc. (UPS).

"It's too early to comment about possible job losses," said Job van Harmelen, spokesman at TNT Express. He added the number of potential job losses mentioned in Dutch daily Het Financieele Dagblad makes no sense.

On Monday, UPS, the world's largest international package shipper by revenue ahead of FedEx Corp. (FDX), said it has agreed to buy smaller rival TNT Express in an all-cash deal valuing the Dutch package shipper at EUR5.16 billion ($6.80 billion).

According to the newspaper, Chief executive Marie-Christine Lombard said that while there are few concrete agreements about labor aspects, the loss of up to 20,000 jobs is possible. She added that part of the agreement is that potential lay-offs would be evenly spread between TNT and UPS. TNT has a total of 77,000 employees.

kjq10a

20th Mar 2012, 21:54

Paste these coordinates into your Google Maps browser to catch a glimpse of what LGG may look like in a few years: 39 54 28.1 n 84 13 53.7 w

This is the empty shell which remains from a once bustling international air network sort facility which handled +100 aircraft and millions of pounds of shipments every night. UPS purchased and absorbed the shipping company and dropped their subcontracted airlines (including the largest one which was wholly owned by the acquired shipping company) like a bag full of rusty hammers.

BrowntailWhale

20th Mar 2012, 22:56

You are referring to Menlo. UPS purchased Menlo and it did not include an airline. You are confusing Menlo with Emery Worldwide. Emery Worldwide Airlines got it's FAA certificate revoked for numerous maintenance violations.

Emery changed it's name to Menlo and continued ops without a wholly owned airline and instead, relied solely on contractors for lift. UPS purchased Menlo and closed the DAY sort and built heavy freight sorts at it's own hubs around the system. It also cancelled the ACMI contracts with the Menlo contractors and transferred all the volume in house to UPS Airlines as required by the UPS/IPA contract. What's your point in all this? You expect the IPA to allow other operators to fly UPS volume on routes that UPS Airlines can legally fly?

kjq10a

21st Mar 2012, 01:49

The acquisition of Emery Worldwide by UPS did not include Emery Worldwide Airlines just as the acquisition of TNT Express NV by UPS will not include TNT Airways. You are confused if you believe that Emery and Menlo were different entities somehow (go to Emery Worldwide Freight Services - UPS Supply Chain Solutions (http://www.ups-scs.com/transportation/emery.html)). Emery Worldwide Airlines got it’s FAA operating certificate revoked because it made the acquisition simpler and enhanced value for both parties in the transaction (think Babbit’s DUI and the Cargo Carve-Out).

The relationship between Emery Worldwide Airlines to Menlo/Emery was no different than the relationship between UPS to UPS Airlines or TNT Express NV to TNT Airways. UPS doesn’t want or need TNT Airways and existing treaties and laws would prohibit the acquisition and outright foreign ownership of an EU airline. I expect the IPA and/or UPS to allow other operators to fly UPS volume as allowed by their agreement. My point is that eventually the TNT volume will be UPS volume in the UPS network and TNT Airways will probably either cease to exist (like Emery Worldwide Airlines) or look very different (like Challenge/Centurion) in a few years.

ClamJammer

21st Mar 2012, 03:38

HBB if that isn't gloating what is it. It is grossly unfair that N reg acft can fly unhindered round Europe when European reg'd acft cannot do the same in the US. UPS can buy 100% of TNT but TNT would only have been able to buy 49% of UPS. It will be interesting to see what happens in the next few months/years.

Whilst that may be considered gloating, I must say your quote is misleading.
N reg A/C simply can not fly "unhindered" around Europe. Cabotage is alive and well and the likes of UPS have up to 20 departures a night from CGN flown by Star Airlines because the EU rules wont allow the city pairs to be flown by Brown tails, or US pilots.
While UPS may own 100% of any European company, they may NOT own any more than 49% of any European airline, BIG difference.

This was proved quite blatantly by the Brits when Balpa balked at Atlas Air doing the flying for BA.

The result was 3 744's and all the job growth going from Atlas to AACS in STN just to cater to one customer. The A/C were put on the UK register preventing any US pilot from operating them. Upwards of 100 "commands" were shifted from the US to the UK, and they are still there in the guise of GSS, with the first three dash-8's that Atlas ordered going to GSS.
So this "unfairness" can go both ways.

I certainly do agree however, that the next few months will be interesting, and in the end, it really is a business decision, irregardless of which side of the Atlantic it comes from.

upsfr8rcaptain

21st Mar 2012, 04:07

I don't know BrowntailWhale, nor will I speak for him. I don't even know if he really IS a line UPS pilot or management. That said, as a 21 year plus UPS line Captain I can safely say he does not represent the typical UPS pilot's attitude towards our recent TNT acquisition announcement.

First of all, NO UPS pilot knows what the ramifications of this acquisition means for our flying or staffing. UPS has kept the pilots represented by the IPA (my union) totally in the dark. We took no active roll in these negotiations, and UPS really isn't interested in our opinions or desires. UPS only gave the IPA the minimum notice required by our contract once the purchase agreement was accepted.

Integrating the TNT system into the UPS system will undoubtably be an extremely complicated logistical, financial, and legal maze. The complexity associated with standing 3rd and 5th freedom rights, coupled with the depressed EC economic engine could lead to LESS UPS flying for all anyone knows (politically, how easy of a sell would it be for an EU politician to change the rules, eliminating intra-European N-number flying by IPA crews??)

The track record for pilots surviving a UPS acquisition is poor. Our purchase of Challenge Air Cargo was (from the line UPS pilots perspective) messy at best. We only bought the that company for their landing rights in South and Central America. The pilots were non-union, and their leased aircraft returned. UPS didn't even offer any of their pilots job interview preference. I was embarrassed.

This acquisition of TNT by UPS will affect many thousands of employees, families, sub-contractors, etc. Some may come out ahead, but a lot may not. Only time will tell. But UPS Corporate has determined this to be the best course to expand our branded service in not only Europe, but also Asia, South America, and India. It is the biggest piece of the worldwide logistics puzzle we've purchased, and hopefully will mean more jobs for more people as our international system becomes more interconnected.

For any pilot to brashly exclaim glee over possible expanded international flying at this point, is simply throwing out flame bait, an opinion based upon a vacuum of facts. If I had made such a statement in haste, I would whole-heartedly apologize to everyone on this forum. This type of attitude does not represent a line UPS/IPA pilot.

This completes my once per year posting on this forum…..

11Fan

21st Mar 2012, 04:39

^ Well said.

8sugarsugar

21st Mar 2012, 04:46

^ I'd fly with that level headed American any day

BrowntailWhale

21st Mar 2012, 05:25

The FACT is that the typical UPS/IPA pilot wants IPA crewmembers flying every route that they can get in browntail aircraft. If they say otherwise, they are either lying, trying to be PC and not offend TNT pilots or simply an idiot.

If you consider it "glee", then so be it. I'm excited at the probability of increased intra Europe flying for UPS/IPA crewmembers. I'm truly sorry that TNT Airways pilots will probably get hosed, but their own company was going to hose them anyway. But it's a dog eat dog world and I want UPS/IPA as the top dog.

Nieuwsblad Transport > TNT halveert intercontinentale vrachtvloot (http://www.nieuwsbladtransport.nl/Modaliteiten/Luchtvracht/ArticleLuchtvracht/tabid/142/ArticleID/23999/ArticleName/TNThalveertintercontinentalevrachtvloot/Default.aspx)

Metallica Rules

21st Mar 2012, 05:30

Another UPS guy here.

Lots of talk about UPS buying TNT on the line and crew rooms, but none of us have a clue about what could/will happen. I wouldn't be a bit surprised if we lose flying over this. I surely hope not, but hopefully everybody realizes that UPS doesn't tell us anything. They don't want our opinions either. Our union was notified a couple hours before it was made public.

Anybody coming on any of these anonymous boards claiming to be a UPS/IPA pilot and gloating about it is blowing smoke. Trust me! We have no idea and it could just as easily be bad for us too.

As mentioned before, I hope that this leads to more flying jobs for everybody and nobody gets the shaft.

Keep in mind that our relationship with our company is about as cozy as yours. They don't tell us anything, and all we have is our contract.

Good luck to all, and keep in mind that you never really know who is who on these boards. Nobody that I've chatted with over the last few days is gloating over here at UPS.

Metallica Rules

21st Mar 2012, 05:40

BrownWhaleTail,

Come over to the bar and grill and tell everybody you're speaking on behalf of IPA pilots on pprune.

You don't speak for me. Zip it.

Nobody's gloating, and you know it and I know it that UPS hasn't and won't tell us sh!t until the last minute.

Zip it ahole, unless you're man enough to come out on the B&G. You don't speak for me or any IPA pilots that I've talked to in the last few weeks concerning the TNT deal.

loader

21st Mar 2012, 09:42

Hi girls and guys

Correct me if I´m wrong, but isn´t it, that UPS can´t buy TNT airways to 100% and keep their right to fly intereuropean (better said. 2 landings within one country).
As far as I know, they can only own 49%.

According to AirCargoNews DHL already went to the european antitrust watchdog.
UPS is confident to get the approval, but some predict that they have to sell some of their european assets (whatever that will be).

So long. Let´s hope it all works out to the best for TNT, UPS and the european partners (StarAir, Farnair, West Air and so on)

Flightmech

21st Mar 2012, 09:46

The result was 3 744's and all the job growth going from Atlas to AACS in STN just to cater to one customer. The A/C were put on the UK register preventing any US pilot from operating them. Upwards of 100 "commands" were shifted from the US to the UK, and they are still there in the guise of GSS, with the first three dash-8's that Atlas ordered going to GSS.
So this "unfairness" can go both ways.

I don't think you'll find the aircraft were put on the UK register to "prevent any US pilot from operating them".

BAWC and Atlas got away with it for a while because there was no comparible equipment to use on the UK register. Then came AFX. Ok, a 747 Classic but close enough to the CAA (and BALPA!) Therefore, BAWC had a choice. Go with AFX or do something about it. Hence the birth of the "virtual airline" that is GSS. We all know it's a flag of convenience for BAWC and Atlas, However GSS is a UK AOC holder and therefore should be operated by GSS pilots, along with the BA secondees (that's another bone of contention)

Seems like you want to have your cake and eat it:rolleyes:

BraceBrace

21st Mar 2012, 10:30

Sorry guys but this is the way business is done in the US

You are talking about Europe/Belgium/Netherlands. Welcome to our legislation. Your story would end with all letters with proposed bonusses being thrown away because everybody knows it's illegal. All redundancies would become illegal at that point as well.

Flightmech

21st Mar 2012, 11:45

Wouldn't it be ironic if all the intra-European flying was passed to TNT followed by a furlough at UPS:ouch: Unlikely but ironic!

Flightmech

21st Mar 2012, 12:00

Unless the current EU AOC was kept??

JW411

21st Mar 2012, 16:36

polax 52:

I am most grateful to you. In my retirement I have often wondered why I did not continue my flying career in the USA but decided to come back home.

It did not take long for you to start calling everyone that disagrees with you "scabs" before anything has even happened!

I have some wonderful American friends but you are already displaying an amazing amount of arrogance and ignorance which is unbecoming of your beloved country.

It was having to fly with pillocks such as you (who were greatly in the minority) that made me return to civilisation).

Flightmech

21st Mar 2012, 17:10

JW411,

Seconded. Maybe he and BrowntailWhale are best buddies:rolleyes:

BraceBrace

21st Mar 2012, 18:13

@polax52:

I don't underestimate the UPS lawyers in any way. I reacted to the story you wrote where employees would "out of the blue" be faced with a letter to "sign or fear the result".

Depending on the number of redundancies, the "path to follow" is clearly written down. Belgium has had a number of these big closures in the past. Try google "law renault". Depending on the % of employees to be made redundant, the plans have to be announced well in advance, leading to social debates about how many, how, etc...

mutt

21st Mar 2012, 19:05

Polax52, in this wonderful European world of ours, are the cabotage flights that UPS are seeking legal?

What about taxation? Are USA based crews ready to pay European tax? Are you aware that present expat flight crew have to monitor the number of days they spend in Europe? Are your colleagues ready to pay?

My last FAA licence renewal (I.e. medical) cost me $50....... My last JAA renewal cost me $1500 including paying for proving that I could speak English, my native language.

So maybe it would be easier to create a company called UPS EUROPE, with the TNT crews...... Otherwise bring your credit cards.

mutt

One Outsider

21st Mar 2012, 20:37

It does not become fact until it has happened. As of now it may be what you wish or think will happen, nothing more.

As a couple of gentlemen has already mentioned, nobody knows how the two companies will integrate, least of all those at the coalface. EU regulators will also have to approved the deal and may impose conditions or restrictions.

This may also be an opportunity for UPS to challenge the unions.

mutt

21st Mar 2012, 21:50

But where does this end? Can American Airlines take over British Airways and then replace all their planes with N registered aircraft and crews?

Why should UPS get away with it?

Mutt

CargoOne

21st Mar 2012, 22:31

I doubt UPS will be allowed to operate all EU network on N-reg fleet. They can get away with some routes but surely not all of them. Long existence of Star Air is rather confirming this, let alone smaller feeders.
No doubt TNT value is brand, contracts and network and this has very little to do with TNT Airways as such. At the end of a day TNT Airways is rather small operation. So I see two scenarios based on a fact that 51% should be traceable to EU/EEC individuals: a) UPS will keep TNT Airways (could be rebranded as UPS Europe) through some artificial ownership structure and possibly even grow it at expense of Star Air, although I wouldn't bet this will remain Belgian AOC and LGG base, or b) they will shut TNT Airways and grow Star Air.

There is some value in EU airline apart from intra-EU network and that's a traffic rights to/from Asia and Africa.

fingal flyer

22nd Mar 2012, 00:02

Europeans,
Wake up,and I am one.The politics are the prob and until it gets sorted we cant complain.Browntailwhale got my back up as much as anybody else and I dont work for TNT,they must be livid.Polar52 said American parties are not to blame and he/she is dead right.
I should be proud but I find myself jealous because of the rules.What rules you may ask,they are the rules that differ between the USA and the European UNION,union my arse.Im sorry folks but been as pissed off and all as I am show me the road to take on this subject with the rules the way they are.
By the way for those Europeans who recken we have protected internal flights,bull,UPS op a 767 VLC-BCN so thank the Spanish Gov for that and FEDEX op a 757 CGN-MUC.Not anti anything,just realism.
Dont really know where to end this except to say its not anti anybody,as a pilot I hope we all keep our jobs.

grounded27

22nd Mar 2012, 01:07

What a hot topic, truth is that anyones perception of what should be or what is, is worth less than their 2 cents. The bottom line has an impact on me much less than it does most of you. The fact is, this is happening. The law will dictate how, the preceding result is what you all need to wait for and react to. I guarantee one thing, none of your feelings are worth a damb... YET!

upsfr8rcaptain

22nd Mar 2012, 01:15

As everyone here knows, the flying rights granted to airlines are agreements made between the governments. There are several levels of flying rights, and UPS is probably operating under fifth freedom rights, allowing us to pick up volume destined for different countries. I am a pilot, not a lawyer, so don't take what I say below as gospel, but I think I'm in the ballpark.

I fly the UPS 767 VLC-BCN-CGN route routinely, and to imply it is cabotage is incorrect. UPS does not have seventh freedom rights to fly cargo/express inside of Spain, but we are merely picking up volume for destinations outside of Spain for distribution at our Cologne hub to points beyond. The loads are usually extremely light into and out of VLC, so we may actually do that short leg from Barcelona only for lower fuel and parking costs; I actually don't know.

Much of our intra-Europe flying is actually a "change of gauge," where our larger MD11 and 744, fly into our Cologne hub from Asia, the Middle East, and North America, gets sorted and delivered to points beyond on our "smaller" 767 aircraft. Then, or course, the reverse occurs feeding European volume to points worldwide. It's an extremely complex system that is augmented by a large and sophisticated ground transportation network (a package will always go by ground if it can make its delivery time/date). There are many city pairs within Europe UPS does not have the right to fly, so we have a ten year contract with Star Air (Maersk Air) to cover that flying. I believe they use 11 B767SF in our Cologne operation. Our two unions and pilot groups have a very good relationship, and the IPA directly supported SAC during their most recent contract negotiations with UPS. :ok:

HARM Shooter

22nd Mar 2012, 08:11

....and FEDEX op a 757 CGN-MUC.Not anti anything,just realism.....

well, according to my knowledge FedEx is operating this route as ´repositioning´ to fly MUC-TLV, meaning zero payload from CGN to MUC.... But plse enlighten me if they break German rules each single night by taking payload along & I would be happy to bring this issue forward to the appropriate officials :D

Best Rgds.

Flightmech

22nd Mar 2012, 10:21

Like upsfr8captain says. You're not picking up freight from one location in Spain and delivering it to another in the same country. You are merely picking up freight with destinations in other countries. That's how it works. FedEx do exactly the same

Flightmech

22nd Mar 2012, 10:24

It also seems only pilots are upset about this. What about all the Euro jobs FedEx, UPS etc are creating?? Ramp, sort, maintenance, courier etc etc plus work going out to vendors??

cedgz

22nd Mar 2012, 12:42

One Outsider

22nd Mar 2012, 14:21

UPS are not going to do battle with their Pilot Union, that really makes no sense whatsoever.Companies and unions are always in a battle for position and power. Somtimes more openly than other, but it is always there.

There is now a situation where two groups of employees both have something to win and something to lose. If one group wins the other loses.

I have little doubt that UPS is looking at that as an opportunity.

grounded27

23rd Mar 2012, 05:27

"It also seems only pilots are upset about this. What about all the Euro jobs FedEx, UPS etc are creating?? Ramp, sort, maintenance, courier etc etc plus work going out to vendors??"
exact, and a jet need his dirty oily aircraft mechs,rampers, etc... ie, and compagnies like ups and fedex pay better wages. so it could be interesting for the not flying people to work for oUPS

I feel we must give some respect to the pioneers of the modern package delivery airline as UPS, FedEx and DHL (originally a US based co.) deserve.

No there would not be as many globally employed persons that support these airlines if not for them. The capitalistic environment that allowed them the growth rate they had does not exist in the EU, back then or today.

This can be argued to death but fact is, it is well... factual.

737Jock

23rd Mar 2012, 08:02

Let's put that "fact" into perspective shall we

The economy of the European Union generates a GDP of over €12.279033*trillion (US$17.960*trillion in 2011) according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), making it the largest economy in the world.

Economy of the European Union - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_the_European_Union)

And that's at the height of the European crisis. All the talk about emerging markets and the euro crisis make people forget that the EU is in fact the largest economy in the world.

The problem is that the EU politicians can never agree on anything apart from setting a new date to talk.

Acid-drop

23rd Mar 2012, 10:05

They (LGG and UPS) are now discussing on the eurocarex project (cargo via high speed train). The whole goal of LGG mgmt is to convince UPS to keep the Liège hub alive and running.
A cargo high speed train could link both airport in 40 minutes.
The high speed tracks are already existing. Thalys connects Liège and Cologne multiple times per day for passengers.
EURO CAREX : Cargo Rail Express (http://www.eurocarex.com/)

Need to Know Basis

23rd Mar 2012, 13:49

High Speed train link for cargo ? been talked about for years. More EU - non elected Civil Servants finding ways to spend billions and still take 20 years to get anywhere. I hope they do but it will not happen in my working lifetime. Forgive the pun, EU Techno Civil Servants are on the Gravy Train ! Most of them should get a proper job........they can`t because it does not pay them enough ! Where shall we sit ? Brussels or Strasbourg. It is the only thing these half wits can actually organise .

Rant over.......enjoy your weekend !

grounded27

23rd Mar 2012, 14:24

The economy of the European Union generates a GDP of over €12.279033*trillion (US$17.960*trillion in 2011) according to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), making it the largest economy in the world.

The EU was at best a concept when the major package delivery airlines saw the opportunity and as they created the business we know today.

737Jock

23rd Mar 2012, 20:13

grounded27

The problem is that the EU politicians can never agree on anything apart from setting a new date to talk.

Guess who wrote this...

pssst it was I;), 737jock

flying lid

23rd Mar 2012, 21:06

Test run happened 2 days ago. FedEx, UPS, TNT & airport involvement mentioned.

International Railway History Made at St. Pancras as a Cargo Carrying TGV Makes First Visit to the S | Rail.co.uk (http://www.rail.co.uk/rail-news/2012/cargo-carrying-tgv-makes-first-visit-to-the-station/)

also

TGV ?La Poste? visits St Pancras - The Railway Magazine Magazine (http://www.railwaymagazine.co.uk/news/tgv-la-poste-visits-st-pancras)

Lid

One Outsider

23rd Mar 2012, 21:44

TNT Airways to be sold to comply with EU regulations but will continue to operate.

UPS Confirms TNT Airways To Be Sold Prior To TNT Express Acquisition | Fox Business (http://www.foxbusiness.com/news/2012/03/23/ups-confirms-tnt-airways-to-be-sold-prior-to-tnt-express-acquisition/)

jdumonde

23rd Mar 2012, 21:52

That figures, just research UPS' acquisitions of Challenge Air and Menlo for a track record of what UPS does. They don't want any more stinkin' planes or pilots, they just want your routes.

Best case, TNT Air becomes an EU contractor for UPS; worst case they dry up on the vine and go out of business.

Skystar02

24th Mar 2012, 12:24

So, what we will see in Europe is a lot of pilots moving outside Europe to look for a job, because their job is being done by an outsider.

Mmm... I wonder if the same happen in USA, what would happen? It sounds Ironic.:=

Good luck to all "Qualities"!

Daysleeper

24th Mar 2012, 15:34

The train can carry 120 tons of freight which is the equivalent of seven articulated lorries or the same amount of Jumbo Jets :confused: .

Er what's that in Blue Whales?

:hmm:

Skystar02

25th Mar 2012, 10:46

Hi fellows,

Fox business news are not true. TNT Airways will keep operating. At least in Europe. UPS, according to european regulations, cannot buy more than 49% of the airline, so they will need to restruture or merge their operations in Europe.

Probably after all, we will see less browntails in Europe unless TAY's airplanes are painted in brown.

Regards to all.

KBPsen

25th Mar 2012, 12:10

Fox business news are not true.Had you cared to read it, you would have seen that it says pretty much the same as you.

"UPS and TNT plan to sell [TNT Airways] to comply with EU regulations," UPS spokesman Norman Black said.

UPS noted that both companies "shall endeavour to ensure that TNT's airline operations will be able to continue to operate despite the change in ownership and control."

jdumonde

25th Mar 2012, 19:18

UPS noted that both companies "shall endeavour to ensure

When UPS says "shall endeavour" you better take cover because you're going to get screwed.

I've been with UPS 21 years - they blatantly ignore what we think is black and white contract language. Hell, we can't even agree what a "day off" really means! (calendar day, domicile day, Z day, rolling 24 hour day, ...)

The "will try", "will attempt" language in our contract is a joke. Of course we were stupid enough to fall for it in the first place.

UPS will get whatever they want, they're no more afraid of the European Parliament than they are of the US Congress or the Chinese Government. They'll make the appropriate "campaign contributions" and their business will go forward. Look what happened to us in the U.S. with the "cargo cutout".

Not only did they actively lobby for a cargo cutout (there were several management pilots who testified before Congress), they then had the nerve to lie to our faces afterward and said they didn't seek a cargo cutout. Trust me - you're not dealing with rational people here.

6000PIC

25th Mar 2012, 20:59

This " three - for - all " between UPS , DHL and FedEx is shaping up to be a good fight for world logistic domination. The recent takeover of TNT is just another chess move within the game these 3 play globally . History will decide if it was a good move or not. I wish them good luck. With 30 % of revenues , (and increasing) coming from internet activity / online purchases and the door to door service these companies provide , there`s plenty of money to be made in the years ahead as the world economy grows. This is a battle that will be fought for the next 20 years , perhaps longer. Meanwhile , ...will there be a Chinese or Indian company that emerges to compete ? Will the Chinese government allow any/ all of these 3 ( foreign ) freight carriers domestic rights for any long term period or anything other than that which benefits China ? Is it too early to hope for a reality show or am I too late with my ..ahem..... pilot ?

grounded27

26th Mar 2012, 02:49

Meanwhile , ...will there be a Chinese or Indian company that emerges to compete

You don't just start up expecting to survive in this market, domestic,intra asian ops only would be my guess. But I can clearly see an upside to FedEx and DHL in this UPS deal. My guess is TNT express and airlines will be just a Wiki page soon.

JW411

26th Mar 2012, 16:25

polax52:

I must congratulate you; your refernce to the "TNT airways guys" is so much more acceptable and polite than your original title of "Euroscabs".

Skystar02

26th Mar 2012, 17:50

I'm probably know that UPS's speech is according to their intentions.

Anyway, TNT does not own only one airline in Europe, but two. Pan Air is also a TNT airline and older than TAY. Both fly for TNT network and both fly to destinations UPS cannot in Europe. UPS's contractors are too slow to fly that routes...

The reality is that UPS cannot get the control of that two airlines. I know they will have the determination of looking for the legal structure to control both airlines and close them down. Unitl that happen TNT cannot be sold regardless the agreement they have. UPS knows it.

Jobs cutting will be in both sides, UPS does not create jobs in Europe, this merge will cause jobs loosing in both sides. :yuk:

grounded27

26th Mar 2012, 23:26

Jobs cutting will be in both sides, UPS does not create jobs in Europe, this merge will cause jobs loosing in both sides

Do you think UPS has the intention of keeping or creating jobs? The answer would be quite the opposite. Lower overhead, increase profit. If in an instant TNT just went away, UPS,FedEx & DHL would be able to make more money with less expense.

gtf

27th Mar 2012, 06:16

Not impossible to get rid of TNT Air, but not as easy as made to be either.

TNT Air has, and uses, cabotage rights, and rights to points beyond Europe set in bilaterals that depend very much on the nationality of the carriers involved. UPS may need TNT Air to keep a 777 or two to fly to China or India or Russia... It can be tricky, just ask DHL. They still route their LOS flight through BRU because they can't get the rights transferred to LEJ.

TNT Air has a deal with the regional government (LGG owner) running until 2036 for incentives and preferential terms. UPS can still close TNT Air overnight, but it will cost some cash.

CGN cannot handle the TNT volume even with current expansion work, and I don't think (could be wrong) that UPS has enough spare air capacity to handle it either. So unless UPS has a magic wand to double CGN and a bunch of aircraft parked in the sand, it will need LGG and TNT's fleet at least for several years. I can see the 146s gone soon, but the 737s will remain and be augmented with a handful of 757s.

If you are keeping score, there's a sure US victim already. The ABX/ATI (can't remember which) flying for TNT will most likely end ASAP.

Much of our intra-Europe flying is actually a "change of gauge," where our larger MD11 and 744, fly into our Cologne hub from Asia, the Middle East, and North America, gets sorted and delivered to points beyond on our "smaller" 767 aircraft
A not-so-insignificant detail many seem to miss. UPS' European network is optimized for Europe-ROW traffic, the larger share of its current business. Buying TNT gives UPS a massive boost in its intra-Europe operations and it may need to make significant changes to its network. It makes predicting the future of TNT Air that much more difficult.

But I can clearly see an upside to FedEx and DHL in this UPS deal.
Which one?!? Right now, DHL is out of reach at #1 in Europe. Combining UPS and TNT gives them a (small) chance to fight for #1. FedEx is already marginal and will be even more so.

Expect DHL and FedEx to try everything to block this.

BoeingorIamnotgoing

27th Mar 2012, 10:22

To all " candide " colleagues.

Yesterday our CEO confirmed that TNT airways will not be sold.
But UPS can't own an European airline !
What is the solution ? As far as I have understood : Split the airline and the new UPS-tnt and find a new european owner ( at least sharing 51% of this new entity). So at least 51 % of the airline will be sold !
Sold to .....? It will be amazing to see Dutch share holders to be granted TNT airways shares as a compensation of the 9.5€ offered by UPS.
We were said yesterday we are not paid enough to buy share of our working tool.

TNT airways will become soon a preferred airline for UPs in Europe as we are marvelous assets!

Wake up :
we will loose the protection of being 100% part of a group.
We will be pilots making wet lease for UPS !
Our new job : circuit breaker for UPS Europe, facing huge pressure to reduce our cost.
No more real development - already phasing out of bae146 fleet and b747 fleet.
Welcome in the world of small operators hanged by the balls.
The management is scared to upset UPS, they want us to keep a low profile !

The deal is great for TNT management but ,if we are not UPS employees, this deal on short to medium term is crap for us!

jdumonde

29th Mar 2012, 04:54

Of course you've got this going for you: (is there an ultra-sarcastic, gag on my vomit font?):mad:

UPS Named "Most Ethical"

UPS is the only U.S.-based transportation and logistics company recognized
After a rigorous assessment of our compliance and ethics program in 2011, UPS was named as one of 2012 World’s Most Ethical Companies. There were more than a thousand companies who participated in the assessment and 145 companies received the “World’s Most Ethical Companies” designation for this year from Ethisphere Institute.

The Ethisphere Institute, a leading international think-tank dedicated to the creation, advancement and sharing of best practices in business ethics, corporate social responsibility, anti-corruption and sustainability puts together every year a list of the World’s Most Ethical Companies, highlighting organizations that show leadership in promoting ethical business standards.

These companies go beyond making statements about doing business “ethically” and translate those words into action, introducing innovative ideas to benefit the public and compelling their competitors to follow suits.

The World’s Most Ethical Companies have incorporated ethics into business practices whether domestic or international, retail or B2B, and have been able to thrive despite an ever-changing global regulatory environment.

grounded27

30th Mar 2012, 04:36

UPS is the only U.S.-based transportation and logistics company recognized
After a rigorous assessment of our compliance and ethics program in 2011, UPS was named as one of 2012 World’s Most Ethical Companies. There were more than a thousand companies who participated in the assessment and 145 companies received the “World’s Most Ethical Companies” designation for this year from Ethisphere Institute.

And who set's the grade? This information means nothing to me as the constant is feedback from employees and above mentioned results of corporate takeovers. I am employed by another large brand airline who have received countless rewards. Please? The larger the company, the more celebrated only gaged by the funds they dump into the system.