Sad story about a high and mighty check airman

[Babablackship]

Recently visited an old instructor of mine who later became a check airman. He is afflicted with terminal cancer. We talked about the good times; sadly the conversation unfortunately turned to his regrets in life. He was a macho, gung ho kick ass type when he was check airman for a company in the Far East. He confessed to failing " some chinky Orientals " for some dubious reasons which he wasn't proud off now. Apparently they rubbed him the wrong way because " they seemed not docile and subservient like the other slitty eyes "; they dared to challenge and correct him when they caught on some of his mistakes.

Unfortunately because he failed them even though on very flimsy reasons, their careers were ruined as their company believed my instructor's ( John ) word as he was connected to Boeing company.

Now, on his deathbed, he confessed that his " kick ass " sentiments got the better of him and he had failed those chaps very unfairly. He had let racial stuff and intolerance of dissent from people who he thought were beneath him clouded his judgement .Now, how does he make amends? It's very disconcerting to see somone you look up to grimace with tears welling up; what ever happened to the flamboyant, cool Yeager with nerves of steel? I could scarcely offer any words of comfort, except that it was all in the past and he should dwell on his achievements instead. It was hard trying to steer the conversation to the positives. When I finally could bring his memories to the good old times we had, I quickly bade a hasty goodbye when the going was still good.

I must confess I didn't do a good job of comforting him; I was caught totally off guard. I never expect this to come up. His wife has asked me to visit again as she said that he seemed to open up better when he talked to me; gee, it is a real toughie. I respect the man and would really want to see him go happy, but...............

Looking for suggestions here from fellow aviators, or even instructors/checkers who may have met similar situations. Many thanks.

[Chuck Canuck]

It is indeed sad. Several years ago when I was in the land of morning calm there was an ozzie chap on the T-7 who was a terror, but only to expats as he was probably too scared to fail the locals. This ex PNG bush pilot was hauled well above his station when the Koreans saw in him something useful; he was good in teaching fellow expats a lesson. He was a non type rated B777 DEC and his understanding of the T-7 was well below par; when challenged by B777 vets on some check flights because of his dubious knowledge, he used the " checker " card. Well, all the stress that came with a life of living a lie did him in; he ended up with the dreaded " C ". The last I heard, he survived the horrible medical treatment that entailed and most certainly wished him well despite his trangressions.

Away from his other life s a " checker " he was a reasonably fine bloke. However when he takes up that " jehovah " persona, the nice cap turned into an insufferable recalitrant.

I am quite sure he has his regrets from what I heard. Characters like these have our sympathies because of their inadequacies, they make life a misery for themselves and others. I hope stories like these will enlighten those self appointed skygods and make our careers in this profession more rewarding and fulfilling.

[Taras B]

Such deathbed reflections are amends enough, for me. I read stories about people who have done far worse deeds, and show no remorse when they die. Right or wrong, I guess the unrepentant have their reasons, too.

The final stanza below may be the most quoted of all of T.S Eliot's poetry:

This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
This is the way the world ends
Not with a bang but a whimper.


FIN

[billabongbill]

Chuck, I certainly agree with you that Lenny was hoisted well above his station. Sometimes, certain individuals have problems dealing with power and success; despots, tyrants and child movie stars who go off the rails all come to mind. He tended to over-react to minor infractions and at times seemed to have hold overs from his 767 days which clouded his understanding of the 777. Unfortunately, KAL was in need of some hatchet man and Lenny happened to unconsciously be one.

I guess he has paid his dues and let's wish him well. The last I heard he was Recuperating well somewhere in SE NSW. Godspeed Lenny.

As for Baba, your old mentor certainly need your support. Like Taras had written, such reflections are sufficient atonement as he certainly cannot set the clock back. If he is able too, a few words in this forum can lift that heavy burden. I am sure his " victims " had moved on, taken the sorry episodes as cest le vie. Your mentor's reflections on his former life is part of his own progress in his overall evolution. Good luck.

[alanusa]

As pilots, many of us had suffered under such pieces of work masquerading as skygods. Some of us truly had our careers ruined. I had a friend who just gave up flying when he was unfairly failed by one such type of TRE eventhough he passed easily on the second attempt. If I may opined, should you ask him what such TRE who now have regretful reflection he would certainly tell that guy to commit harakiri. Much as we bleeding hearts will have sympathy about such deathbed confessions, notice should be given to such " terrors " that their regretful actions would have ruined the lives of their victims. I am sure there are plenty of such characters around.

Yes, maybe a public confession on a forum such as this will ease his guilty and many of us will proffer some words of comfort to help him though his difficult days.

[Archie Archerfield]

I agree that if he is able to write, he could post something on such a forum. It would be highly therapeutic, psychologically or even spiritually.

I had been a TRE/TRI before; power that is inherent in those positions can be very corruptive. I had to constantly remind myself to watch out for any ego trips, high handedness and treating others as any less competent. Being challenged by a checkee can be quite " challenging " and there are a few times when I found that the checkee was " more correct " than I was. It was very tempting to brush that aside and use the big stick; on reflection, I guess I subconscously knew that I am going to do myself more harm besides doing something humanly wrong if I were to succumb to that. This is especially so with non native English speakers who do not articulate their " challenges " very well so much so that it all seems a big affront to a checker who is native English speaking.

[italia458]

Archie... Very wise words.

As an instructor I have to be very careful as to what and how I say something. It's definitely challenging when you have a student who challenges something you say. You really need to know when to correct a student and when to learn from a student... Which is not always easy to see!

[B2N2]

Alan & Archie..true words
I am seriously not a religious person, spiritual but not religious.
However:

GALATIANS 6: 7-9 (KJV)
7: Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.
8: For he that soweth to his flesh shall of the flesh reap corruption; but he that soweth to the Spirit shall of the Spirit reap life everlasting.
9: And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

THE DEFINITIONS:
1. Everything that you do has repercussions. It comes back to you one way or another.
2. You cannot escape the consequences of your actions. What you do comes back to you.
3. You will see the long-term effects of your actions.
4. KARMA - The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny, especially, in his next incarnation.
5. What goes around comes around.
6. Your actions all have consequences. Don't ever be fooled into thinking that your actions don't have consequences. Don't think you can get away with bad choices even if you don't seem to get caught. Remember verse seven tells us that God cannot be mocked. He sees it all. You reap what you sow.
Watch the way you live your life because you reap what you sow.

We sow in one season, we reap in another.

Sow a thought you reap an act. Sow an act, you reap a habit. Sow a habit, you reap a character. Sow a character, you reap a consequence.

[Akali Dal]

Well said:ok:. in Mother India we do have a few of such fellas around. Whatever goes around comes around, possibly in another form. No sympathy here for such pieces of work about what they did, only compassion for their unvolved mentality. I guess they have forgotten about how to be a human being.

[S-Works]

FFS.... What are you people on. Judging people on their death bed is a new low for PPrune......:ugh::ugh:

Let he who is without sin cast the first stone......

[Akali Dal]

Nobody is judging Baba's mentor on his deathbed. We do not know the full details of his life, his good deeds as well as his possible trangressions. That Baba has good respect for him should be sufficient that he had something really good in his make up.

We are just discussing about people of his ilk possibly overwhelmed with the aura of power. All these discussions hopefully will open up the eyes of many who may be seduced by such tendencies.

All these must have hit something very close to home for you to be banging your head on the wall. Another trait of such individuals is their hyper sensitivity, taking offence at everything so much so that they just wantonly hit out at everything. Like Archie Archerfield wrote...

This is especially so with non native English speakers who do not articulate their " challenges " very well so much so that it all seems a big affront to a checker who is native English speaking.

[ShyTorque]

FFS.... What are you people on. Judging people on their death bed is a new low for PPRuNe......
Let he who is without sin cast the first stone......

As I read it, the post seems to be about someone on his deathbed judging himself!

[S-Works]

Indeed, as he is well entitled to. It's the 'sage' posts that follow that make me want to puke.

[Molokai]

" sage" posts? Oh oh looks like...............something is coming around! A case of these posts hitting home?

[PBY]

A thought. These people did not become like that in vacuum. I amnot saying, that a junior pilot who was being checked could do anything. But there were many senior guys around, who for sure saw, that something is wrong. We should fight back during checks, if we percieve something wrong. It is partially our, experienced pilots responsibility, that we allow people to grow into monsters, because we dont care or don't have the courage. But it will bite us back.

[italia458]

We should fight back during checks, if we percieve something wrong.

Ooo I'd be very careful about recommending check-ees to 'fight back' during a checkride. Especially when they 'perceive' something to be wrong.

We already have enough arrogant, ignorant and/or misinformed pilots (which is not necessarily the pilot's fault) out there that this is not a recommendation to just pass out. There are many things that you will be taught that could actually be wrong even though they make perfect sense to you. If you 'perceive' something to be wrong, DO NOT fight with your examiner. When the time is appropriate ask your examiner to explain what you didn't understand. The majority of the time your examiner will be correct. These usually come down to a misunderstanding but in any case, during the ride is not the place to be discussing how you think the examiner is wrong.

The way to 'fight back' is to talk to someone in a higher position that will listen to your complaint and take notice. When a number of people have complained about the same thing, something will be done. If nothing is being done, you're talking to the wrong person!

[Prince Rupert]

There are many such sorry characters abound. In another life with a major pacific rim carrier, I was forced to undergo a right hand seat simulator training in preparation to fly a a co pilot due to an impending strike by the locals. A very experienced Asian expat was on the left seat and in a simulated rejected takeoff whereby he had to take over from me and execute the maneuver; in a flash he correctedly accomplished the reject maneuver but I wasn't sure if I had accidently induced an abrupt movement during the handing over of controls which caused the simulator to lose control loading causing us to lose control going off the runway. The captain on the left told the Alteon checker that we had loss of control loading, but the checker just kept remarking that we botched the maneuver! The captain then told the checker to give another rejected take off exercise where he would show that in a quick RTO action, sometimes the sim just lost control loading.

After some argument and after the sim engineers had resetted the machine, the checker reluctantly gave another rejected takeoff which I had to conduct from the RHS. The captain told me to slam the thrust levers back abruptly, pull the speed brakes abruptly and pull the reversers with great force. True enough we lost control loading again. I couldn't believe my ears at what the checker said; he told us we were too rough on the controls and should execute the RTO gently and smoothly. I have alway approach RTO exercises aggressively where every nano seconds count. There were some grudging debriefing points after the session where upon the captain commented that the checker should be aware of such simulator phenomenon. The checker maintained that he never had such a situation before in a check and maintained that it was all our fault. The captain wasn't happy, taking the checker's assessment under protest.

Sometime later I had some recurrent traning with the same checker; he remembered the incident very well and kept on bad mouthing the captain. I even learned that he had even urged his fellow checkers to teach the captain "slitty eye smart alec" a good lesson. I then learned that the loss of face thingy did not apply to Asians but to Westerners too. Suffice to say I lost any enthusiasm to extend my contract when another opening came along.

We all try to hide the shameful stuff from getting to the open but this thread might just be the kind that opened a whole vat of worms, inconvenient truths that somehow needed to be addressed at one time or another.

[S-Works]

Molokai
*
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Hilo
Age: 42
Posts: 55
" sage " posts
" sage" posts? Oh oh looks like...............something is coming around! A case of these posts hitting home?


Ah! The realm of the du witted, turn to insult when they have no intelligent reply.

The only thing these posts hit home is about how strangers on forums think they have the right to judge a dying man. I don't know what's shocks me more, the crass insensitivity of the OP posting the content of a private intimate conversation or the lines of self satisfying dribble spewed out by others.

We will all make mistakes during our lives. Some will be bigger than others. Personally I am trying to keep mine to the minimum prior to meeting my maker but just like anyone else on an aviation forum I am not qualified to grant absolution......

I think this thread is highly distasteful. If you want to discuss the merits if good and bad chech airmen or examiners in general open another thread rather than doing it lent over someone's grave.....

[Tipsy Barossa]

bose-x... if you find this thread distateful, please leave. Guilty pangs are hard to deal with, so the discussions here are are for the more evolved. Sweeping everything under the carpet and hoping to meet your maker with a clean slate is certainly a cop out. There is still a chance to grow and evolve even on your death bed.

[gleneagles]

I am a geriatric and was also an ex-check airman. There were instances whereby my checkees corrected me, especially when there were variations in items caused by aircraft differences or new procedures that were not that clear cut. As a checker I usually cleared my checkees in such instances unless there were items that seriously jeopardised the safety of the flight.

We all learnt from our checkees and hopefully, they from us. There were many instances whereby old habits and dogma led to " negative training ". It was my experience that many gung ho, kick ass A type personalities were guilty of such negative training.

I am not that far away from meeting my maker and I certainly take no offence at all regarding all the posts on this thread. I think they can serve as a pleasant nudge to wake up rather than a rude shuddering awakening for some of our more gung ho colleagues.

As for baba, please do go and see your old instructor. He has indeed made amends with his reflections and confessions. With you putting it here in the forum, his case certainly will hopefully awaken some to the errors of their ways. This itself, in a small way, is priceless. Good luck and fair winds.

[Taras B]

-the quote suggests that Socrates' belief that a human who does not examine (in every sense of the term) their own life, nature, reality, relationships, motivations, and thoughts, is wasting the experience, therefore such a life is not worth living.

I'm just sayin'..!

[ngapsayot]

Gleneagles, you are probably a rare gem in the midst of all the pseudo skygods. This thread surely hit home right on the solar plexi of many and you can imagine the discomfort of these chaps on reading it here!

Death bed confessions are probably good for the soul; I had a cousin who confided in me that one really see one's whole life history pass before one's very eyes. He had a ruptured appendix with sepsis setting in, he was almost a goner. After the NDE, he was a changed man..no more the kick ass supremo that he used to be. One more secret he let in on me...he is his own judge, jury and executioner! Food for thought.

[fade to grey]

Well, I always maintained when FOs came to me and said "so and so is horrible to fly with ", that they were w**kers before they got 2 stripes, then w**kers with 3, 4 so on. Nothing changes.

As for TREs, they can be split into 2 categories - those with massive experience who want to pass that on, and those who collect ratings because it boosts their ego.

I did once want to be an examiner, but now I feel flying takes up enough of my life without extra stuff to study..

[Prince Rupert]

It's always never too late to make amends when you are still alive. There are certainly many ways where past wrongs can be righted.

I once pointed out something about an unfair performance report and was harshly berated for it. I lost a chance for a scholarship on account of it. Some years later, the person responsible for it showed up at an alumni reunion to apologize indicating that he deeply regretted his biased action. He showed me his recent action at redressing the wrong...he got it expunged from my records and sought the permission of the varsity senate to amend my grade. To accomplish this he certainly went through a lot of trouble if not grief. Though I will never ever get that scholarship again and life could have been quite different, he had done good to atone for his rashness. I have certainly forgiven him, but I will not forget his action and I will continue to watch out for people of his ilk.

[gerago]

. If I may opined, should you ask him what such TRE who now have regretful reflection he would certainly tell that guy to commit harakiri.

Whoa, alanusa...harakiri? Sepukku? Gee, don't you think that's a tad too harsh. I too was guilty of failing somebody once because I thought he was a bit below par. Later in the week upon reflection as I reviewed the past week's checkrides, I realised that I might have factored in his " seemingly bad attitude " into his failing grade. I had a chat with the Chief Pilot ( Training ) who also advised that that previous check TREs had found this checkee to be a bit " hyper " and unconsciously exhibited " bad attitude " when under stress. I reviewed with the Chief Pilot his performance during the check and after some exhaustive deliberations I conceded that he deserved a poor grade but not a fail. The higher ups ( in coordination with our CAA ) graciously allowed me ( it was still my call ) to amend the grade to a pass and his recheck was cancelled.

The upshot? I felt good for the checkee and myself. The downside? Rumours abound that I was given a huge dressing down by the VPs and chief pilots, that I was summarily sacked. That I was toast, that I grovelled and was given back my post after stern warnings, etc. None of those were true, but well as someone said...cest le vie!

[Langkasuka]

Babablackship, please do pluck up some visceral fortitude and give your former mentor all the support he needs at this crucial stage of his life. He needs to be at peace before crossing over. A suggestion; as far as I know, most orientals take the adversity brought about by actions such as his in their stride and I am sure all of his victims have moved on. His guilty pangs and uncomfortable reflections indicate a level of spiritual evolvement and progress which stand him in good stead when he crosses over. I guess most of his victims more or less expected such things from him and had factored that as a " learning experience " and knowing about his present predicament will be very magnanimous in forgving him.

Gerago....bravo and I salute your Training chief pilot for having an open mind and taking it up with your higher ups to allow you to amend that grade of your checkee. It takes moral courage and great sense of responsibility.

[Molokai]

It's always never too late to make amends when you are still alive. There are certainly many ways where past wrongs can be righted.

Totally agree that there are always opportunities to make things right. I had a relative who came over last X'mas to apologise for some of his past actions who caused a rift in the family. He looked so old, had a heart bypass and when undergoing GA for the procedure he somehow had an epiphany which triggered his desire to set things right.

Too bad my late father is not around to receive the apologies but I can accept it, putting some closure to the issue. I guess baba's mentor still have the time to do so.

[nasree]

This thread should make an interesting read here:

http://www.pprune.org/fragrant-harbour/489446-ka-checker-records-record-4-command-failures-row.html

[halas]

20 years ago on a small fleet in big company we had two checkers of opposite personality.
One a true gentleman and tutor. The other a vindictive troll.
The nasty one felt he had been hard done-by by the company and duly took it out on his checkee's.
After a check ride with first fellow, l asked why he was so pleasant, thorough and assisted with any 'grey' areas with fairness, the complete opposite of his colleague.
His response was straight forward enough..."One day you may be my check-captain!"

halas

[Globalstream]

It`s at least commendable that your friend has expressed some kind of regret, even if it is too late to undo what was done. It`s never too late to say sorry if it is sincere and if that can help him find some peace before he passes on it will be worthwhile. Perhaps a letter or open letter would be a cathartic and effective means of communicating his regrets.

Perhaps you read this uplifting news in recent days-

US cancer victim uses obituary to confess sins - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/9409486/US-cancer-victim-uses-obituary-to-confess-sins.html)

[justanotherflyer]

Sitting on an interview panel for a fully-sponsored ab-initio airline training program a few years ago, I inexcusably succumbed to groupthink fuelled by one very senior bullying 'skygod', in adding my casting vote against a perfectly sound, indeed truly excellent candidate.

I'll never forget the look of sadness in her eyes as she took the news on board, quietly gathered her things and left the room. To my immediate discomfort and regret she even said "thank you all for the opportunity".

I sought her out in the lobby to offer some words of consolation, try again on the next round, blah, blah... She bit her lip and said I can't, my birthday's next week, I'll be past the age cut off, it was my one chance, i could never afford the training. She gave me a tearful smile, a ladylike goodbye, and headed off.

While I ruefully pondered having wrecked this kid's dream of flight, I could hear the skygod's laughter coming down the corridor, chortling no doubt at one of his own jokes before the largely fawning group.

"Never f****** again", I promised myself.

[billabongbill]

justanotherflyer...oh dear that is absolutely terrible, truly sad and regrettable. I have always advised my copilot and junior colleagues against pack behaviour or groupthink as you have it.:sad:

When things like this happened, it is lways not easily reversed. Some poor guy's life gets ruined and one has years of agonising regret unless they are real pieces of work like that skygod you mentioned. I am sure you can find ways to set things right like find other airlines with comparable sponsored ab initio programmes.:)

[Keylime]

It is indeed sad. Several years ago when I was in the land of morning calm there was an ozzie chap on the T-7 who was a terror, but only to expats as he was probably too scared to fail the locals. This ex PNG bush pilot was hauled well above his station when the Koreans saw in him something useful; he was good in teaching fellow expats a lesson. He was a non type rated B777 DEC and his understanding of the T-7 was well below par; when challenged by B777 vets on some check flights because of his dubious knowledge, he used the " checker " card. Well, all the stress that came with a life of living a lie did him in; he ended up with the dreaded " C ". The last I heard, he survived the horrible medical treatment that entailed and most certainly wished him well despite his trangressions.

Away from his other life s a " checker " he was a reasonably fine bloke. However when he takes up that " jehovah " persona, the nice cap turned into an insufferable recalitrant.

I am quite sure he has his regrets from what I heard. Characters like these have our sympathies because of their inadequacies, they make life a misery for themselves and others. I hope stories like these will enlighten those self appointed skygods and make our careers in this profession more rewarding and fulfilling.


Chuck:

Know the chap you are talking about. Not a bad bloke on the ground, but we had a saying about some guys. "Great guy to drink a pint with but when they cross the threshold of the aircraft and you pressurize them, something changes." I believe your analysis is spot on.

[Sky Dancer]

Well said Akali , speaking of India there is a healthy mix of Indian and Expat angels of death trainers.I've seen some of them and they can truly kill a pilot. Met an old friend of mine and heard that there was an expat TRE who we knew who had a stint in India or is still there if I'm not mistaken.Dubious credentials created havoc in the Far East and did the same in India I heard.Well what goes around comes around.:ok:

[Pugilistic Animus]

Very good story!...I try to self examine an atone, as best as I can...I'm far from perfect

Re: the cancer victim's story, why can't I have a 'paperwork error' never went for the PhD...:{...tired of lectures...:)

[Pugilistic Animus]

I hate to sound heartless but as is said what you reap you shall sow and karma...when I said very good story...I meant good as in illustrative not a 'good story'...it is sad...but it's also sad that he ruined those airmen's careers out of racism...when you do such things you get paid back in spades...sorry!

I know how racism can really make like difficult---I'm a mixed Latino and I've suffered employment discrimination as a result and left a good job...but I don't like being called a monkey or being told that I don't speak spanish that I speak Puerto-Rican...and of course being treated accordingly...it's hard to feel much sympathy...he has to reconcile his predjudiced and hateful actions with God now...I was hesitant about posting this but I feel something should be said...once again---sorry!

[onetrack]

Personally speaking, I can recommend living by that excellent, well-proven, and wise motto, attributed to that great genius, Anonymous .....

"Be careful whose toes you step on today - because they might be connected to the foot that kicks your ass tomorrow .... "

Babablackship, it must be saddening to see someone on his deathbed undergoing such regrets and personal ass-kicking, over behaviour he now acknowledges was wrong.
I think we have all been in that position to a certain extent. However, to be in a position where you can ruin anothers career via a derogatory assessment is indeed a very powerful position to be in.
However, the story of the world is of millions of peoples careers being ruined by powerful people exerting powerful forces. Nothing has changed since time began.

Perhaps your best approach to your friends self-flaggellation is to let him know that those whose careers he ruined may not see things the same way he does now - and the passage of time most certainly dulls the edge of deep cuts.

As one whose life was ruined, and whose 30 year asset accumulation was totally destroyed, by one callous person in a position of great power over me - I can assure you that the initial rage of grossly unfair (and illegal) treatment does not usually linger for decades, in the average person.

We move on, and put the poor treatment behind us, and find another life. I'd suggest that you advise your friend, that those he mistreated have also done the same - and possibly do not now regard the poor treatment that they received at his hands, with a continuing aim to exact revenge.

In fact, he may find that some of his poorly-treated underlings may completely shrug off the treatment that they received at his hands, and they may advise him that they went on to better and bigger things, in a different field.

[Pugilistic Animus]

Onetrack I hear you, and agree but clipping a pilot's wings is a horrible thing to do-perhaps this is justice...sorry!

[Sky Dancer]

Life will be fine if you just follow this:

St.Mark 12 Vs 30 , 31....You must love the Lord your God with all your heart,all your soul,all your mind and all your strength.The second equally important: Love your neighbour as yourself.No other commandment is greater than these.

One day we shall meet our Creator and give account for our actions.Will we be found wanting ?Watch out !!!:ok::cool::confused:

[onetrack]

It appears that many people suffer from bitter regrets upon their deathbed, so this friend of babablackships isn't alone. After reflecting upon this post, I remembered one particular nurses story.

As a palliative care nurse, she spent much time with people unloading their regrets onto her. She ended up writing a book about the subject, called "The Top Five Regrets of the Dying".

The book won't help babablackships mate much, but it sure is a good guide on how to live your life, to minimise regrets when you get old.

Here's the link to her blog. I don't think I've read so many home truths in one webpage.

Inspiration and Chai (http://www.inspirationandchai.com/Regrets-of-the-Dying.html)

The fact that babablackships mate is afflicted with terminal cancer is not unusual. I firmly believe that many cancers are incurred via internalising deep bitterness, anger and hatred.
The old saying "what's eating you?" has more than a passing basis in fact. People who are permanently angry, harbour constant bitterness, and carry hatred with them daily, generally end up burning out rapidly, as their anger and bitterness eats at them.

Babablackship - SWMBO thought up an interesting action. She suggested that your mate write letters to the blokes he wronged, and pour out his apologies to them. Then he could try and locate them, and send the letters to them.

Even if he can't find them, or the letters don't reach them, he may find a degree of personal satisfaction in knowing that he tried to address his wrongdoing before he parts the veil.

[Tipsy Barossa]

Met up with a former Alteon gentleman recently. Talked at length about the initial good old days and the challenges of dealing with pilots of all ethnic background and different levels of experience. Brought up this subject as I guessed a few Alteon guys were somehow insinuated to have tendencies alluded to on this thread.

Well he intimated that that they were indeed a couple who are closet green eyed monsters through and through. He mentioned one particular guy who was awfully jealous that a third world chap was made chief of the A330 checker group and did his utmost to disparage the poor chap at every turn. And that the A330 wasn't even his fleet! Then when a ex Honduran guy was made head of his fleet's checkers the hidden knives were all over him...the poor chap lasted less than 4 months! The strange thing was this particular goes all out to come across as a docile lamb who wouldn't hurt a fly and would always " reject " the offer to head the fleet's group of instructors but HE WOULD GO ALL OUT TO KNOCK DOWN ANYBODY WHO HE " judge " as inferior to him being made the chief. This piece of work would be a great specimen for a great psychoanalytical study!

Hopefully some do gooders will pass on this thread for his reading pleasure. As some hobos who walked around got it right, repent the end is nigh!

[SpaceNeedle]

No chicken sh*t. Heard about this piece of work some years ago at BFI. Can never fathom the mentality of such people.

[totempole]

This piece of work would be a great specimen for a great psychoanalytical study!



The shrink may gone bonkers too!

Actually it is not too difficult to fathom such behavior. It is largely due to repressed sense of inadequacy and lack of self worth. Most of them have previous failures they themselves suffered and they then imposed failing grades on others to feel that they were actually not that bad when they themselves failed!

[Jehovah Elohim]

This thread got to me through several emails and some of those smart arse email senders thought it was very relevant to me!

Well, I had been a hard nosed ass kicking check airman in another life. I had been tough and I minced no words during my debriefings. However I do not deliberately knock someone down for no reason. Going through my notes, I had never ever failed someone due to one particular poor item if he/she had demonstrated good performance overall, unless it was something resulting iin a crash or severe damage. I would then give a poor grade with a recommendation for further enhancement training during the next recurrent proficiency training.

There was a few occasions whereby I did amend the failing grade like the poster Mr gerago did. It wasn't too difficult a task if one had the trust, credibility and stature that the company and regulatory body respect. I had no compunction whatsoever in undoing my mistakes when it was fully justified to do so.

Will I make a deathbed confession? Not likely. I sincerely believe I had corrected those mistakes I had made unless there is evidence to show otherwise. I hope this will put an end to those do gooders who emailed me to save me from a death bed confession.

[Calvin Hops]

Wow, you ain't a skygod but your user name is INTIMIDATING!

[Chuck Canuck]

Tipsy, would that be the canuck wannabe " ian killinghog " in scottish? Seems like his stents haven't given way yet!

[Archie Archerfield]

There was a few occasions whereby I did amend the failing grade like the poster Mr gerago did. It wasn't too difficult a task if one had the trust, credibility and stature that the company and regulatory body respect. I had no compunction whatsoever in undoing my mistakes when it was fully justified to do so.

Well, well, well...so your stature was such that the company and the CAA would acquiesce to your request that the failing grade you awarded be amended. Good on you and I am sure you think that makes you feel good. This kind of sound rich but it is better late than never in correcting your mistake.

However, bear in mind that flying especially flying in command has a lot to do with confidence. A pilot's confidence is often badly damaged, if not destroyed by failing grades especially when done maliciously. I have seen friends whose confidence plummeted drastically on account of arsey checkers like you; hence my advice is that checkers bear that in mind before they embark on their jehovah moments.

[potteroomore]

However, bear in mind that flying especially flying in command has a lot to do with confidence. A pilot's confidence is often badly damaged, if not destroyed by failing grades especially when done maliciously. I have seen friends whose confidence plummeted drastically on account of arsey checkers like you; hence my advice is that checkers bear that in mind before they embark on their jehovah moments.

So true, AA. Got a mate who had just a bad day, not a disatrous sim check at all ( I spoke to the checker as well as the f/o ) but the anal checker deemed it fit to fail the guy because " he expected more, not just acceptable standards. " The poor bloke ( who already had some other stuff bothering him leading to the seemingly bad day ) was shattered and he was never the same for a long long time. It was only when he moved to another airline that he fully recovered his full confidence, becoming a superb trainer and checker.

[Namor]

So true, AA. Got a mate who had just a bad day, not a disatrous sim check at all ( I spoke to the checker as well as the f/o ) but the anal checker deemed it fit to fail the guy because " he expected more, not just acceptable standards. " The poor bloke ( who already had some other stuff bothering him leading to the seemingly bad day ) was shattered and he was never the same for a long long time. It was only when he moved to another airline that he fully recovered his full confidence, becoming a superb trainer and checker.

Some years ago, a colleague was failed because he allegedly botched max crosswind landings. He did not fully remove the crab during a B777 sim check and the resulting T-7 " twisting shaking thingy " was deemed a bad landing. When he protested that such a fail grade was grossly unfair that would affect his career, the best the checker could come up with was, I quote " I have been failed thre times before and I am now a checker, no big deal! I will arrange your recheck ". I am no psychoanalyst but isn't this some kind of psychopathic behavior? Like, say, a psychopathic abuser who now abuse women because he was badly treated by girls in high school?

[Al Goreng]

Some years ago, a colleague was failed because he allegedly botched max crosswind landings. He did not fully remove the crab during a B777 sim check and the resulting T-7 " twisting shaking thingy " was deemed a bad landing

Most experienced B777 TREs are aware that the aircraft is very shaky when there is residual crab or drift. In fact during one of my line training flights, I made such a crosswind landing and it seemed so bad that I convinced the instructor to log it, just in case. Well, the QAR report that came later indicated that it was a non event! Are you sure that sim checker was suitably B777 qualified?

[totempole]

Are you sure that sim checker was suitably B777 qualified?

AlGoreng, I suspect he was alluding to some Alteon simulator checkers who were ex-B757 and really believed the T-7 to be a supped up 757/767. These blokes have never physically flown a triple wheeled bogie B777 before and they think the sim is 100% accurate. Poor dimwits but they make lives very difficult for others with their anal retentive attitudes that they know best because they qualified as checkers in the sweat box.

[Toowoomba Taipan]

Sympathy for baba's ex mentor as seeing him at his deathbed one will certainly pity his condition and his regrets. We will all have our regrets but it is hard to deal with those once we are aware of our less than noble actions against those we had wielded some power over.

I know personally of a few of such characters, and I am sure they will certainly wince and grimace should they ever have the good fortune of reading this thread.

[500N]

Babablackship

It is hard talking to him as you want him t be happy. I would suggest visiting him again, let him talk of the bad bits and then once that is all over, get the topic back on some good bits that you both remember. Take some photos, books, ? log book ? etc in but keep them hidden until the time is right t change the subject. The photos / books etc will then give him something to focus on, physically and mentally.
I also like onetracks suggestion of writing letters to the people.
Since it unlikely he will know where they are, offer to do some
searching and post them off to them, then post them to some
address where they might get returned to you, might not.

At least is his mind he has tried to correct a wrong.

[Shintaro Abe]

Somebody mentioned the way out by seppuku or harakiri as a way out. Sigh, that way of bushido is only honorable if there is no other way out. As babablackshiep's old instructor is still breathing, he has other honorable ways to make amends. He can write to the affected pilots' airline or the aviation authorities explaning his gross error...I am sure his signature and examiner licence number will be recognised.

He is still able to make amends...do something! Crying and confessing is good but really doing something about it will be precious, not only for himself but for the people he had wronged.

[polochristo]

AlGoreng, I suspect he was alluding to some Alteon simulator checkers who were ex-B757 and really believed the T-7 to be a supped up 757/767. These blokes have never physically flown a triple wheeled bogie B777 before and they think the sim is 100% accurate

I personally had the misfortune of getting one such idiot trying to teach the finer points of the Carnarsie VOR 13R approach at JFK! He had never ever experienced operating into KJFK let alone conducting the Carnarsie approach in his sorry looking B757 but had the haughtiness/skygodliness of criticizing our not fully aware of the physical landmarks along the approach course prior to the turn onto the final approach. And all based on the sim visuals! Good lord! I am no ace and in the sim( night scenario ), I was eyeballing the lead in lights, the runway lights, the threshold lights and the Vasis. I had no time for the high ways, hotels, race courses, etc. Because of the quarteing crosswinds he had given, I landed precisely albeit without fully decrabbing which led to the twisty shake of the T-7. I had an earful during the debrief..luckily he couldn't fail me because that approach was not in the check profile but he indicated he would if it was. I protested that if the landing was out of limits the sim would have recorded a crash ( this was before the upgrade to the sim; previously the sim would indicate a " crash " if the side Gs or vertical Gs was beyond limits ); he brushed it off as was " his " call. I would say he is a prime candidate for deathbed confession.

[jandakotcruiser]

Quote:
AlGoreng, I suspect he was alluding to some Alteon simulator checkers who were ex-B757 and really believed the T-7 to be a supped up 757/767. These blokes have never physically flown a triple wheeled bogie B777 before and they think the sim is 100% accurate


It amazes me how the regulatory bodies can allow someone not originally fully rated and never physically flown the aircraft to be made instructor and check airman. For newly launched aircraft type, it is the manufacturer's test pilots certifying the factory instructors and checkers before they are let loose to train and check the customers' pilots. Likewise the customer airlines' flight ops trainers must have physically flown the aircraft before they train and check their trainees. Modern day ZFT level six simulators are nice and dandy, but absolute duds in replicating actual aircraft handling. I had done initial line training with ZFT pilot trainees who display " zero feel " for the aircraft, flying around like robots chasing the magenta line!

[potteroomore]

In new aircraft types just launched I supposed it is common that the instructors/TRES would have minimum stick time on type before they are let loose to train the line pilots. I have just read the thread about the Boeing pilots delivering aircrafts and training pilots at their customer airlines.

However for an established training centre such as Boeing Training in Korea it is indeed a shame they allow ex B737/757 jockeys who have no stick time on the B777 to instruct or check.

[woodyspooney]

Many suns ago in the early 2000s when I was still in KAL, there were 2 AMPA pilots manning their B777 Check and Training...they were absolutely great trainers and checkers, truly competent and professional beyond reproach. They had thousands of hours training and checking pilots of Boeing customer airlines. They understood the difference in the handling characteristics and fidelity of various simulators world wide as well as the differences between simulators and actual aircrafts.

They left after Boeing set up Alteon bringing cheapie non type rated blokes who had no clue as to the actual B777 handling characteristics. Things went downhill and we had checkers tailoring their " failing quotas " to fit KAL's " proficiency training through fear " programme. Those unlucky enough to be picked or happened to have a slightly bad checked item would be failed no matter how well they had done overall. Of course they picked a few " problematic " Koreans ( non Air Force Academy alumni ) to be failed; but somewhere along that route, a couple of expats ( those who had embarrassed either KAL internal divisons or Alteon with their previous arguments ) would also be taught a lesson.

I am not sure how is it now with Alteon in KAL as I had left it a number of years ago. However I understand from former colleagues still holed up in SEL that there certainly isn't any change for the better. The concern here is money; non rated cheapies can be recruited for a song. Likewise Boeing AMPA pilots lose out to non rated pilots to ferry the B787s to QR and LAN.

[Mic Dundee]

THE DEFINITIONS:
1. Everything that you do has repercussions. It comes back to you one way or another.
2. You cannot escape the consequences of your actions. What you do comes back to you.
3. You will see the long-term effects of your actions.
4. KARMA - The total effect of a person's actions and conduct during the successive phases of the person's existence, regarded as determining the person's destiny, especially, in his next incarnation.
5. What goes around comes around.
6. Your actions all have consequences. Don't ever be fooled into thinking that your actions don't have consequences. Don't think you can get away with bad choices even if you don't seem to get caught...You reap what you sow.
Watch the way you live your life because you reap what you sow.

We sow in one season, we reap in another.

Sow a thought you reap an act. Sow an act, you reap a habit. Sow a habit, you reap a character. Sow a character, you reap a consequence.


What you have stated above is not biblical. If you quote the bible, please don't re-interpret it, unless you're a biblical scholar. Are you a biblical scholar? I think not. This was your opinion. You should rephrase your title from "THE DEFINITIONS" to "MY TAKE ON THINGS."

[Sargeant Snorkel]

Tipsy, would that be the canuck wannabe " ian killinghog " in scottish? Seems like his stents haven't given way yet!

This pommie canuck should long be put to pasture! Have never come across such fake and insincere piece of work. Teaches rubbish during his sim sessions.
People just get fooled by his fake niceness.

[Prince Rupert]

This pommie canuck should long be put to pasture! Have never come across such fake and insincere piece of work. Teaches rubbish during his sim sessions.

Very true. This is the guy who teaches pilots to shut the fuel control switch off immediately upon an RTO in case of an engine failure without reference to the checklist because " you might get a fuel leak ". At the same time he lambasts you for not following the ECL to the letter in the case of an engine surge whereby you continue the memory items of auto-throttle arm switch off (affected side ), thrust lever ( effected side ) idle down to fuel control switch ( affected side ) cut off IF THE SURGE CONTINUES even though the fuel control switch to cut off is not a memory item in the engine surge non-normal checklist in the ECL.

Likewise he lambasts pilots for descending down early to the visual circuit altiude once cleared for visual approach. He expects you to fly his " Vancouver visual " approach way of keeping a 3 degree flight path because of noise concerns. " Keep high at 3000 ft or above and maneuver for a visual 3 degree glide path ", he admonishes! Well that is a local YVR requirement for a day of good visibility! There are airports in other parts of the world whereby for ATC purposes you should get down to circuit altitude pronto. Likewise where there are some cloud banks, one should get down to circuit altitude early to continue to maintain visual contact with terrain and airport environment. Well I guess he is so proud of his " Vancouver " way that he judges other pilots' visual approach techniques as unacceptable.

I am surprised that Alteon keep such instructors and checkers; what is even more surprising is that KAL agree to keep such retards around the training center.

[SpaceNeedle]

He was just teaching his own techniques and preferences. We have this kind of dinosaurs all over, full of themselves and their self declared much vaunted procedures.

[Molokai]

Absoluely amazing that Boeing/Alteon recruited such non rated pilots as instructors and pulled wool over their customer airlines.

The sim is a good tool to check on adherence to SOPs, procedures, etc. However we all know that the sim can never replicate the handling characteristics of an actual aircraft. However good the visuals are, they are synthetic. A instructor/checker worth his salt surely knows that and will duly factor that in his assessment of the checkee.

This thread makes great reading for all pilots. Much as I sympatise with babablackship's mentor, I think that are many of his ilk out there who indeed need such a wake up call.

[Namor]

Quote:
This pommie canuck should long be put to pasture! Have never come across such fake and insincere piece of work. Teaches rubbish during his sim sessions.


I know this guy, a real vindictive chap but seems extremely nice to those who have not seen his bad side. Once I had a session after he had given sim PT to some guy. He was complaining to a fellow Alteon guy(my checker ) about his earlier trainee...it seemed that he was pissed that the trainee, a south east asian gentleman, had remarked that his ( the instructor's ) conduct of a sim exercise was negative training! He sounded peeved and vengeful.

What I learnt later was that it was a CFIT exercise. The trainee was vectored and put through a high descent rate towards the terrain, the goal was to
induce a " terrain, terrain " and subsequently a " terrain, terrain, pull up, pull up " GPWS warning. However with the high descent rate coupled with the fast reducing radio altimeter reading, the trainee stowed the speedbrakes first. And just as the speedbrakes are stowed, the GPWS warnings came and the trainee made the standard recovery with full power up, autothrottle/autopilot off, wings level, pitch 20deg up, then recomfirm speedbrakes stowed, etc. He was lambasted during the debrief that he had the procedure wrong! He MUST HAVE THE POWER UP, AUTOMATION OFF, WINGS LEVEL, PITCH 20deg, then only speed brakes!

The trainee argued that he was just stowing the speed early because by the high terrain closure rate he sensed through the radio altimeter, he had instintively stowed it earlier out of sequence BUT HE HAD SUBSEQUENTLY ENSURED THAT THEY WERE REALLY STOWED. The instructor maintained that was absolutely wrong! Follow SOP! The trainee then argued that in real life flying, he would NEVER EVER leave the speedbrakes deployed with such a reducing terrain closure rate as indicated by the fast reducing radio altitude, remarking that the exercise could be negative training. That must have riled that 757 hero! I was not sure if language problem ( the trainee was some south east asian chap ) was the case of the remark of negative training making the instructor upset, because the trainee might not have articulated it very well.

I understood the trainee's contention but I guessed there was miscommunication as the real intent of the exercise was to activate the GPWS warning, then recover. So I think instructors should be able to communicate their intent well before hand to avoid being " badly stung " by comments of negative training by a perceived upstart!

[jandakotcruiser]

Written by Namor...The trainee argued that he was just stowing the speed early because by the high terrain closure rate he sensed through the radio altimeter, he had instintively stowed it earlier out of sequence BUT HE HAD SUBSEQUENTLY ENSURED THAT THEY WERE REALLY STOWED. The instructor maintained that was absolutely wrong! Follow SOP! The trainee then argued that in real life flying, he would NEVER EVER leave the speedbrakes deployed with such a reducing terrain closure rate as indicated by the fast reducing radio altitude, remarking that the exercise could be negative training. That must have riled that 757 hero! I was not sure if language problem ( the trainee was some south east asian chap ) was the case of the remark of negative training making the instructor upset, because the trainee might not have articulated it very well.

Absolutely correct, seat of the pants and great airmanship! I have had sim sessions whereby the F/O keep on charging down with full speedbrakes deployed despite my pre-emptive warnings about " altimeter alive " and excessive altimeter reducing rates! Once I took over and recovered from the impending CFIT before the GPWS warnings and was alo chided for it. I agree, it is absolutely NEGATIVE in establishing a certain mindset!

[totempole]

What the checkee/trainee did was absolutely correct and prudent!

If the objective of the exercise is to give an unexpected GPWS warning and checking if the checkee/trainee recover correctly, what the check airman should have done was to create a " glass mountain ", triggering off a sudden GPWS warning. Besides the " glass mountain " there are other means of triggering the GPWS without getting the checkee/trainee to do a deep dive! Sheesh.

[Amitabh Belacan]

I thought the term negative training applies only to weight training! And it is supposed to be good and highly effective!

I guess this term must have negative connotations so much so that the forementioned check airman got so peeved.

I would consider the frequent re positionings, slewing and " fast double speed " to be negative too! Too often the gyros between my ears toppled beyond recovery from the constant repostionings so much so I actually gained nothing from the training exercises. I just become plain robotic to get the exercises over with.

[Tipsy Barossa]

Heard from a reliable source that KAL is conducting an audit on the alteon geriatrics. Seemed like they are finally coming around to addressing the complaints aired aeons ago!

Amitabh, I believe the term negative training is also used loosely in aviation parlance albeit to indicate undesirable effects as opposed to that for weight training.

[potteroomore]

Blokes with thin skins and big egos have no place in the training business. Bruised egos can wreck havoc to other people's careers and well being.

It makes me wonder why a reputable entity like Boeing does not employ psychological testing to weed out these silent killers.

[Gangnamstyle]

Was alerted to this thread by a friend who said I should post my experiences with some Alteon checkers.

Some years ago I was rostered to assist as F/O for several foriegn captains consecutively over several days. I was not under check but acted as copilot to several expat captains. 2 of the captains bungled some of the check items and generally performed quite poorly but still passed. One other captain did very well eccept that he landed a bit long (about 2500-2800 ft) passed the threshod during a dual hydraulic failure case. He was given a real dressing down even thpugh it was a 13123 ft runway. As we ran out of time, it was marked as incomplete...the company considered it as a fail and he had to do the whole check all over again. Another captain did very well too, and because he did well the checker keep moving the " goal posts " so to speak...items that were recommended as waived by the previous instructor were ignored and still conducted in the check. Well he breezed through that, so the checker made some ingenious things so he finally ended with a hard landing. I knew the checker played dirty because when we did the approach preparation we had fuel to the effect of landing some 50000 lbs below max landing weight. When after the so called " hard landing ", my side vision caught sign of a fuel quantity increase of some 49000 lbs more than we had calculated. The increase in weight must have accounted for the " sudden drop " at close to touchdown! I pointed that out, but the checker just hushed me up by saying that he had configured a reset of the simulator for max landing weight for the next exercise. It was complete bs...it was our last item and so when I pointed that out, he said he is just setting up the sim weight for the next instructor taking over the sim as a courtesy!

Why did I bother to write this....because the 2 expats who passed even though they performed below par were westerners. The other 2 who had a hard time were from third world countries. I just lost my respect for that checker; my complains to our training manager was a waste of time as he said it was the 2 third worlders's misfortune and he did not want to rock the Alteon-KAL relationship when no Korean captains are involved. I was just a lowly co pilot, so I couldn't pursue the issue any further.

Now lest some people doubt my account, so be it...it is just some people just can't be honest about their fellow ethnic groups's misconduct.

[gleneagles]

All ethnic groups have the unenlightened ones with their skeletons and demons. Some of the Alteon folks fall into that category. During my time in the Land of the Morning Calm, I had met mostly professional and diligent instructors and checkers from Alteon. Sure, there were a couple of jerks tending to be racist. How did I know that? Well, there were times when we foreign captains were paired up for sim training on the right hand seat as KAL prepared for the local pilots' strike. On two occasions I was paired up with some Asian bloke who performed better than I did! Surprise, surprise...during the debriefing, all sorts of little trivial faults of the poor bloke were harshly pointed out whilst mine were scarcely mentioned and that was only after I volunteered to own up to my own boo boos!

I was an old fart by then and I had ditched all those self aggrandizing attitudes, smugness and superiority complex. I just made light humour of the
two episodes, knowing that somewhere along the line the guys who still hold such complexes somehow get their come-uppance. This thread should be suggested reading for lots of guys venturing to teach, train and check in multi ethnic or multi cultural environments.

[Jump Start Pump]

about 8 years ago, I had a PT/PC training session with an Alteon checker. I was co pilot. My cpatain was a Canadian fella. He was all over place with the engine V1 cuts; the instructor was was ever so patient even though he did sound a bit exasperated towards the end. Despite that chap going off the runway a couple of times, it was still a satisfactory check. well, some weeks later I was on simulator co pilot job again...this time, the same instructor but the non caucasian checkie had a hard time eventhough he never had any of the errors and blunders like the earlier guy. I was peeved at the unfairness and discrimination. I talked to the later captain at lodging a protest but he said that it would be futile. The Alteon checkers never fail a Korean countrymen of mine UNLESS they had prior clearance from our management pilots. The failees are normally the ones out of favor, not of the same clicqe. All those talk of superior fairplay are just hot air.

[billabongbill]

about 8 years ago, I had a PT/PC training session with an Alteon checker. I was co pilot. My cpatain was a Canadian fella. He was all over place with the engine V1 cuts; the instructor was was ever so patient even though he did sound a bit exasperated towards the end. Despite that chap going off the runway a couple of times, it was still a satisfactory check

Oh oh, that must be the one with name like fish fry, big fry in a small frying pan??? I know that guy; I am not going to add anything adverse, but just to say that being paired up with him in the sim was no fun. Pretty embarassing even st.......
Alas, these things happen. We live in a real world, not some kind of true to God fairness utopia! Well, I heard he is out of KAL, so you can breathe easy.

[Raj Merlion]

I know that what I am about to suggest may not be very practical but I strongly feel all check airmen need to undergo psychological testing or assessment to ascertain whether they are genuinely up to the task.

In my younger days as a lowly first officer, I had come across many specimens who might be great machine operators but absolutely lacking in people skills. However due to old boy's networking they were made checkers making life really miserable for those not of their mindset or skin colour.

This does not mean we should take political correctness to the extreme. However, those gungho kick ass type certainly have no place in the check and training department in any professional set up.