Short field landing problems- anyone help?

[WX Man]

Circuit bashing the other day to try and improve my landings (which are seem to be getting worse rather than better), and I thought I'd try short field landings as I could never really master them during my training.

I was taught by my instructor to give it max. flap and a quite steep approach with a very late round out and flare, applying brakes almost as soon as all three wheels are on the ground. In my GFT, however, the examiner wasn't impressed with my technique, saying that I should be doing it long, low and slow (the landings, that is).

What do other people do when faced with a short field? At the moment the only thing I seem to be doing is kangaroo impressions.

[pjdj777]

What are you flying wx?

I tend to fly tommies more than anything else and my instructor taught me to land long, slow and low, controlling the descent with power, I don't fancy the idea of a steep approach for the short field landing, you'd be too fast in the flare, if you were to do that in something like a Warrior you'd never get the flipping thing on the ground.

As an aside in warriors I find the easiest way to land them is short field/powered approach, you don't gilde half as much. Anybody else do the same?

[WX Man]

Warriors and C152s. Mostly C152s though. I appreciate that you wouldn't want to do a steep approach. I don't like doing it either as you are <this> close to stalling speed with the horizon about 1/2 to 3/4 the way up the windscreen (that's steep). Therefore when you get to about 100ft, there is a tendency (involuntary) to pitch up... bringing you closer than comfortable to stalling speed.

Of course the simple answer is to do it the long low and slow method. However I've never done this before and would like to hear how others do it (lets say in a 152 or a 172).

Cheers in advance!

[Pete Tong got power]

I'm a warrior driver and I try to bring it it long, low and slow, especially for a short field, other wise I end up floating all the way down the runway. Also, it means less control input than if you were coming in steep to level out.

Fortunately East Mids has a bloody long runway...well for a warrior anyway, enabling several ballons, bounces, prop grinding tarmac, losing undercarriage along the way before finally coming to halt!! ;) Obviously I'd have gone around long before that!

Pete Tong got power

[pjdj777]

Tongy, you just described a typical PJ warrior landing!!!

I'm glad I'm not the only one who treats warriors like that, they do glide forever.

WX

I'm not sure about 172s but in a warrior I tend to keep it at 80kt on final, reducing to 65 at the threshold, holding the speed and descent with extra power before cutting the power over the numbers, no bumps, no bounces.

I also have the luxury of a long runway at Cardiff but tend to sod off to Swansea and Shobdon every now and again to deprive myself of that luxury and keep the landings crisp.

I've never flown a 152, but in our 150 I never use full flap (40 degrees) since it'll never go around with that much flap on.

That's it, really.

[Gog]

Just my 2 cents

That steep aproach would mean a hefty pitch change with the addition of power at the same time to arrest descent ?

Too much to do at once to begin with and perhaps why 172s don't have 40 deg. flaps anymore.(now putting on a helmet)

I would suggest a more stabilised and mabe a little flatter aproach to 50 feet and pull back the power to drop you onto the spot with a "little" burst of power to arrest descent before the flare.

This shouldn't mean dragging it in ,just moving your aim point back a bit from standard and using smaller throttle changes to control descent at the end with smaller changes in attitude to nail the minnimum speed.

Aim for a specific point every time till youve got it sussed and then move back.

simple to write, harder to do

Gog

[TBone]

The method that worked for me in Warriors was to make a shallower approach, much less than the normal 3 degrees, as slow as possible, with full flap. Cut the approach speed by 5 knots on finals. You will find barely any flare, with the nosewheel touching down an instant after the mains.

If however, you are obstacle limited on the approach, say a 50ft tree on the threshold, this is obviously not going to work and the steep dive at the threshold, followed by a mighty heave backwards will work, as long as you accept that the landing is not going to be pretty. Accurate speed control is the key, and with full flap, it should smack down on the runway and stay there. Hopefully, you will hear the stall-warner buzz at you, as you round out, if it's gone as planned.

Be prepared to go-around if it all goes pear-shaped. There will be some tendency to float, so you will obviously require a longer runway for the latter technique.

I haven't flown a Warrior in ages, but I do seem to recall there is a short-field performance section at the back of the POH which includes tables for both obstacle-limited and non-obstacle limited landings.

The warrior wing has quite a chord for an aircraft of its class, and it will quite happily turn any excess speed into a float down the runway, as several of you have already pointed out !

[Squealing Pig]

On the BCPL course using a Warrior we were aiming for 58Kt over the threshold, full flap on a short field approach.

[The twin]

I've always struggled on this one, but my most recent instuctor got me as close to acceptable as I'm gonna be:

As you turn final put on full flap, forget the approach speed just chuck the nose down and lose a lot of height (staying in the white arc of course).

Adopt a very nose high attitude (don't know approach speed in C150's I'm afraid). Drag is very high 'cos of the attitude so you MUST do a power-on landing (my instructor reckoned that was the secret ingredient).

I was taught in a PA28 and I never had problems of floating - quite the opposite (and what's wrong with dropping fromn 15ft?)!


BUT,

1 I hate doing them 'cos engine failure means curtains - there's no way you can make the field
2 My PPL GFT examiner hated them too for the same reasons. In his words: "I'd rather hit a tree at 30kts, than drop short at 65kts". He asked me to prove I could do a 'drop late from high' short field in the same test.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

The trick is to get on the wrong end of the drag curve (yes even PA28 and C152's have them). For the Warrior if you can get it stabilised at 62kts or less then you can give it armfulls of welly (technical term in the trade) and it wn't accelerate much. It will however drop very nicely if you chop the throttle as you scrape over the hedge. For the 152 the critical speed is 54kts ( it has more flap drag than the Warrior ).

Mind you - don't try it in gusty or windshear conditions. A good idea is to select a touch down point some distance in from the threshold - then if you do drop it at least you are on the runway. That assumes a decent size runway of course.

pjdj777 - Shobdon? Pah! I laugh in the face of the Shobdon mile straight, I tweak the nose of Swansea colossus, you want to try the 800 metres of pure adrenalin which is the EGCW scratch of tarmac. Overloaded lorrys piled with hay on the approach, 60ft screen of trees on thje climbout, a railway and river to the left and half of Manwebs main trunk line to the right - and you tell the youngsters of today and they don't believ you eh TBone?!?

WWW

[Squealing Pig]

Hey WWW have you tried EGCBs RWY 32?
410m of pure adrenaline with the street lamps of the A57 a few meters short of the threshold and a nice bumpy runway to greet you (if you make it past the street lamps!)

P.S. The street lamps have been specially lowered for the approach.

------------------
Push forward - Pigs get bigger
Pull back - Pigs get smaller
Pull back some more - Pigs get bigger again

[This message has been edited by Squealing Pig (edited 13 September 1999).]

[Bengwa Pilot]

Dump the flap , Pull it into reverse...and jump on the ancors....and stick your foot out the door onto the ground like the Flintstones...

cheers!!

[Dan Winterland]

Try a helicopter.

[BEagle]

Personally I reckon that the Warrior wing makes stabilised approaches slightly more difficult than in a straight wing Cherokee. Having read the above, I think that WWW has definitely given the best advice. For normal approaches in the Warrior, we go for 75 KIAS on base, turn final, select full flap adjust attitude to achieve an approach speed (NOT threshold speed!!) of 65 KIAS, then select touchdown point and fly 'point and power' all the way down until the flare - throttle to idle without delay, look at the far end and hold off until touchdown. We do not publish 'short field' data for the PA28s any more, but if you fly the same technique as normal only reducing your approach speed by about 5 KIAS and reducing to idle power JUST before the flare it'll sit down happily enough and allow you to concentrate on braking. Most landing problems seem to result from far too high an approach speed (80 KIAS+) followed by an excessive flare ballooning the aircraft back into the sky whereupon the pilot gives up hope and allows the aircraft to smite the ground. This is often due to the increasing out-of-trim force as the speed reduces during the flare which is difficult to manage comfortably if the aircraft has been flown all the way down to the flare in trim some 25 kts above the speed at which it should ultimately kiss the deck.

[SkyScanner]

Wx Man I am the king on bouncing the aircraft on landing. The short field landing on the 172 is pretty hair raising as you have full flap and think that you are going to fall out of the sky. If you fly your speed and aim at the threshold you should come down alright. I have found that most bouncing occurs at low speeds so you will just have to continually practice landing. After a long while I finally stopped bouncing and believe me, greasing it on is one of the best feelings of flying.

Good Luck

[FREDA]

Shallow and slow, every time. I tried the other way in a Warrior (which for reasons known only to the CFI would not idle) and floated halfway down the runway on a dribble of power before finally dribbling off enough airspeed to drop in from what felt like a great height. Not something I´m terribly proud of.

[climbs like a dog]

Low and slow, dragging it in with power. Don't forget, if you get a hefty rate of descent at lowish airspeeds (such as the short field approach speed) you could be getting close to your stalling AoA. When you go to arrest this ROD in the flare you'll find you run out of elevator (v quickly on some types) and get at least a heavy landing. Maybe you'll get an extremely short landing run by digging in the nosewheel or flattening the mainwheels but this isn't the objective.

Hope this helps.


------------------
Get there eventually

[WX Man]

Thanks for all the advice guys. I've got the 152 booked again for Monday, so I'll give it a go then... and let you know it went! I'll be giving it the low and slow touch ("Flying an aeroplane is like... making love to beautiful woman" to paraphrase Swiss Tony of The Fast Show.

[pjdj777]

Okay WWW, Shobdon and Swansea may not be the shortest fields around, but that's as short as I like to go in a warrior, though I have thrown one into Compton Abbas (MIND THE TREE!!) and Cedar Key, Fl (which has got to be the shortest runway EVER).

Anyway - I'm happy - passed my IMC flight test last night :)

[WX Man]

Funnily enough the reason that I'm practicing my short field landings is that I intend to go to FL maybe later this year or early next year, and I would like to go that Cafe outside Cedar Key that everyone raves about (well, it's not the only reason but it's a good excuse).

I have never been there (well, I have, but only in FS98), but a load of the guys I was with when I was there did an outing to Cedar Key for lunch, and tried to impress each other with their landings. The last guy in (then a cabin steward with BA) apparently hit the deck like a meteor and bounced 4 times before coming to a halt somewhere incredibly close to the end of the runway... and the sea!

Anyway, thanks for the advice guys, I'll let you know how it goes on Monday... once I've settled the insurance claims.

[The twin]

If you're going to Cedar Key, I'd practice my cross winds before my short fields.

Those palm trees'll have you doing more footwork than David Beckham.

Also, back-track down the runway and avoid the sand on the apron at all costs. Two other planes and I were stuck in them for four hours until a truck could pull us out!

PS Try and hire a rod and fish off the pier - fantastic

[skysurfer]

As an instructor (now part time) landings have always been a "pet" teach, What does chew up rwy is the student changing their aiming point the closer thay get to the rwy.On finals pick a point near the threshold and stick to it!!!!! right down to 10ft gradually retarding the power, then hold off and fly the aeroplane to the other end of the rwy without the power on the aircraft will settle. Appch speed is also important so refer to the POH for the aircraft you are flying (C152 55kts)

Good luck

Skysurfer

[Vx]

BANGRATTLERATTLERATTLETHUMP !!!!!!!!! Don't you love airfields with the deckchairs out on the grass set up facing the runway ??

The basis of consistent good short field landings is being able to do consistent normal distance ones and adapting the technique. Its good to practise SF ones during the low TT stage of learning to become aware of the principles involved, just don't hammer the aircraft trying to get the distance less and less. Get real good at normal ones first before trying to stop in 200m.

You can use the low and slow drive in, or the steep angle low power technique; it depends on the aircraft and your experience level.

I use a constant airspeed (throttle) and constant aimpoint (stick); constant = stabilised, for any type of landing, including both kinds of short fielder, although you get a better aimpoint perspective with a steep approach.
If you nail IAS and aimpoint control on any approach you won't bounce or float, but remember all speeds are gross weight dependant. A bounce or float means too much speed = energy, so if you nail IAS at 500' you'll be ok all the way to where you stop. The key is "the correct speed" not "any slow speed" (The slow speed -> stall/thump is more of a ricochet rather than a true bounce).
Make small quick corrections to airspeed and aimpoint, not big ones which cause damped pitch oscillations and an unstable approach with the acft feeling constantly out of trim. When its set the acft will just sit relatively stable all the way down final.
Shears, crosswind and gusts you ask ??? That's what the pilot's for..
In any case, pick an practise aimpoint 200m into the runway.

Doing a low slow one with a high lift/high drag wing and a low experience level and gusty conditions can get you in a low IAS, low height, up the wrong side of the drag curve situation and a real short heavy landing. If you do these types of approach then practise slow flight at height and get and stay very current on approach configuration full flap power on stalls. They are a means to get very short field landings but at the risk of having to hide the dead sheep or guide dog wrapped around a mainwheel. When you get a couple of hundred hours on type and a calm day have a go.
Some commercial aircraft at MGW would be nogo with these.

For a steep approach, set approach IAS at min drag (the bottom of the drag curve) +5kts, for the GW at the time (book min drag speed is usually quoted at MGW), reducing power to get rid of the 5 kts by flare height. A steep approach can mean too high a IAS, so next time a tad less power and/or less steep, till you like it. Remember power + attitude = performance. This technique takes more time to get used to so seems harder but is much better in the long run.
This technique can be limited in some aircraft that run out of backstick with full flap and forward CG.

What you want at the end of either approach is entering the flare with IAS reducing up the left side of the drag curve from min drag speed, power reducing to idle, height decreasing without float as you enter ground effect, and the aircraft feeling "dead" not ready to do a bounce or float, and all at the same time. (The true conasewers will hear the prop make a funny little sound too..) Boomp. Then throttle check closed, get directional control, stick back and brakes on.

On a dirt strip the rough stuff starts where the RWY surface stops - if you land 2m short you'll get bent gear and spars and bits of your reputation will stay there. You have some excuse if you fall into a new hole ON the runway !

[WX Man]

That was an excellent explanation of the procedure, Vx. I think my biggest problem was that [even though I had an excellent instructor] I didn't know why I was doing what I was doing. Things have since become a lot clearer- thank you!

[aardvaak]

In my old job, we aimed for a VAT of Vstall1.1.

Follow a normal approach with a gradual reduction of speed on short finals (300' and lower).

As some of the other guys have mentioned, you will be on the 'wrong' side of the drag curve. As such you will require power to maintain your speed.

Use the stick to point at the no.s, the power for speed. Gradually reduce speed to VAT. Slight check back prior to touchdown. Upon impact, close the throttle and stand on the brakes.

Doddle!

[MEL]

Lots of advice so far - I add some from a commercial perspective - BN2s in PNG.
Firstly some ground rules - The information in the flight Manual calls for a 50' threshold crossing height, which if continuing on a 3 degree glidesploe will result in a touchdown about 954' in from the end - good if you've got it lets take a daily example of mine:
FANE 08 33 00S 147 05 00E, Elev 4300' Length 451 m Slope 12% Grass.

Firstly the uphill slope catchs many first timers out - they land jump on the brakes then realise that full power is required to "taxi" to the top.
The technique I've found that is safest is to fly the normal 3 degree path with the speed nailed on 55 kias full flap and power as req. until crossing about 10' high 20' in from the end of the strip and cutting the power andflaring at same. The amount of flare is critical as the BN can be prone to a heavy thump resulting in a rippled wing. Feet away from the brake then a burst of power to roll to the end.
This technique other than the burst of power, I use quite successfully into all strips where a go-round is not an option, or the strip is specifically short.
Even the PA28 and C172 this technique should work - not sure about the speeds though but always cross check with your Operating Book - the details in section 4 always specify the technique and Vat (Vref).

[MaxAOB]

;) The key to a short field approach is the set up. Get it wrong and you should make an early decision to go around and set it up again. Gentlemen it's all about attitude for speed not power and anyone aspiring for an airline career must sort this out now - fly attitude and your speed will look after itself. So select full flap and get the aim point sorted if your not going to hit the end of the runway go around before you get too low and into danger. Too many pilots persevere (spellcheck pse!!) when the approach starts all wrong. As for you chaps moaning about hay bales etc F-14 in a force 7 to USS Enterprise in the Indian Ocean 1988 - now that's a short field landing - oh for those golden days. ;)

[machpt34]

Normal approach or whatever is required for the obsticle clearance. Try not to be to low, if you get any sink etc you could eat some trees! Also remember this, the greater the decent angle for a given IAS the less forward velocity!! Have the throttle fricton more or less off so your hand has full and easy control of the power, always use full flap. Pick your point to land gradually reducing power and speed so that at the point of flare the aircraft is about to stall and basically does as you touch the ground. Land it!! do not try for a pretty landing, floating down the runway is wasted braking distance. Keep the pole hard back.
This is how we are taught down here, works pretty well on 3-500m strips and beaches etc.
Of course any real short field work is always done in a Cessna!!

[EricTheRed]

Until very recently I had not landed on anything shorter than a mile!

Went to Leicester (EGBG) and had some great fun with short field, x-wind landings on RWY 04 (480m). After that, I had even more fun on some of their slightly shorter grass runways.

I also used to suffer the "float" problem with PA 28's !! Now... not too bad!

ETR
Eric Bass got da power!