CAT 2/3 Question

[bobdazzle]

Q: It's borderline CAT 2 conditions at an airport equipped for CAT 3B. Is there any harm planning and executing a CAT3B rather than a CAT 2?

[Seat1APlease]

it is one thing having the equipment, but having it switched on and offering full protection is quite another., you may not be able to guarantee roll out guidance for example if taxying aircraft are nearby.

[RAT 5]

Surely the protected area is the same for CAT 2 & CAT 3. Therefore that should not be a problem. LVO at an airport is LVO. They do have a strange philosophy bin Germany. The met is CAT 2, so the ATIS says the airport is CAT 2. I've asked for a CAT approach and they reply from area control was "the weather is only CAT 2." They do not seem to understand. Thank heavens that the TWR does and they say you do your own thing as LVO is LVO. It would be different if the airfield is only CAT 2 anyway, or the equipment has been downgraded.

[Seat1APlease]

he didn't say LVO's were being offered or operated but the airfield was cat 3 equipped. I assumed cat3 wasn't actually being offered.

are low vis procedures in force, backup generators on, monitoring in place etc.?

you can use a higher decision height and let it land whilst monitoring it yourself but of course thats not cat3.

[Wizofoz]

An Airport is either operating Low Vis or it isn't.

Cat 2 is a low vis operation, so if conditions are below Cat 1, it's a low vis op.

If the runway is Cat 3 and the operator is approved for that operation at that Airport, you can fly a Cat 3 approach.

[Artificial Horizon]

The couple of airlines I have worked for have always had an SOP of flying the approach at the lowest approach capability that you have. So when Low Vis Ops are in force I would always fly a CATIII B No DH if the airport is equiped. The actual RVR is only important in working out what 'reversions' you have i.e. if you have a downgrade from CATIII to CATII, do you have the ability to carry out a CATII with the current RVR?

[plain-plane]

Airmanship would dictate you select an approach which gives you the best chances of landing.
you should obviously consider notams, and SOP's. would there be any / great differences in your procedures for CAT II/III ?

Even stable "CAT II" wx can change from time to time,

[Arfur Dent]

I'm told that the Germans insisting they are 'CAT 2 only' when in LVO is more to do with separation on the approach (more sep reqd in CAT 3) than how you actually organise yourself in the aircraft. At ports such as FRA this would make quite a difference at busy times.
Perhaps an ATC person could illuminate.

[Wizofoz]

Still, if they are not giving the required seperation for CatIII, you sholud only go to a CatII Minima.

[cav-not-ok]

i guess it basically boils down to what you and your union rep :rolleyes: try to explain to your company management when your aircraft goes off the grass on roll out.

[Slasher]

Been borderline CAT 2/3 quite a few times and found if I stick
to CAT 3 (assuming port is to 3 standard and so is the plane)
I can downgrade to CAT 2 if something screws up.

[aerobat77]

I can downgrade to CAT 2 if something screws up.

in the computer game without a doubt. in real life CATIII requires autoland and CATII not.

so when something "screws up" with the CATIII app its a far better idea to go around than take it manual and "downgrade"on "borderline CATII" like you wrote.

of course the whole discussion is only valid if the AC has an autoland capability.

cheers

[Denti]

in real life CATIII requires autoland and CATII not.

That is not quite correct i'm afraid. Many airplanes are certified for manual CAT III landings, even some that are autoland equipped.

Anyway, if the ATIS says CAT II low visibility procedures in progress we set up for a normal fail operational autoland anyway.

[FoxHunter]

aerobat77
in the computer game without a doubt. in real life CATIII requires autoland and CATII not.

Not true. 27R KPHL requires auto land for CAT2. Most CAT2s in USA have RVR MINS 1000' w/autoland, 1200' without.

[virustalon]

Absolutely no harm. Below 1200rvr airports equipped prepare themselves to execute cat approaches. If you are saying its cat2 the visibility must be between 1600 and 1200 which in a real world you WILL see the runway before landing and see the rccl and tdzl before minimums.
In my airline we prepare to the toughest conditions when we do lvp. Why? Because if conditions get better we dont care but if they get worse we are ready. That is the same reason cat2 does not need to be autoland

[heavy_landing]

Foxhunter, I thought PHL 27R had to be a manual landing, due to an offset LLZ?

[FoxHunter]

Foxhunter, I thought PHL 27R had to be a manual landing, due to an offset LLZ?

No, from the LIDO chart. "1) Special OPSPEC approval and AL required due to non-standard APL"

I had to do one last month.

[heavy_landing]

Foxhunter, very interesting.....our company information is totally opposite!
We have to plan an autoland off any Cat 2 approach; our company 'NOTAM' information tells us that the approach to 27R is offset, therefore we're unable to make a Cat 2 approach to that runway.
However, having operated in good vis to that runway, it doesn't appear offset to me!
Regards, heavy landing.