Queensland Flood report helicopter operation reccomendations

[mickjoebill]

The Flood disaster report has a few recommendations for rotary wing ops..

"5.36 As a matter of priority, the Emergency Helicopter Network requires a system of ‘single point tasking’; that is, a central organization exercising command and control of all helicopters in the Emergency Helicopter
Network, according to availability, task, priority and location. This is a change, which will require all the government agencies concerned to consider the operational needs, resources, protocols, guidelines and training required for its implementation. Ideally, those steps should be completed and the change made before the next wet season.

5.37 At the very least, by the beginning of the wet season, an interim structure needs to be formally in place under which one organization is informed of the status, location, capabilities and allocated task of each helicopter in the Emergency Helicopter Network at any given time. The deployment of helicopters should be made through this organisation."

Mickjoebill

[Flying Binghi]

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Queenslands Clive Palmer got some interesting views about helicopter flood rescue...


"QUEENSLAND'S richest man, Clive Palmer, used his company helicopter to rescue four staff from his Cold Mountain Stud in south-east Queensland...

... Mr Palmer's helicopter had also saved about 60 people in the area after emergency services said they had more urgent cases to deal with..."

Read more: Billionaire uses company helicopter to rescue staff (http://www.smh.com.au/environment/billionaire-uses-company-helicopter-to-rescue-staff-20110113-19pu4.html#ixzz1pZ6YiLQM)



"...So talk about floods: 35 people died in the Lockyer Valley last year in the floods, and I had five workers on top of one of our buildings; 18 hours they waited for a pick-up and it still didn't come. We sent our helicopter into the Lockyer, got those people out and we rescued another 30 people in the Lockyer Valley.

TONY JONES: We've got to leave it there, but I'll make this point. You can respond to this briefly. That you've called for the - I think it's scores of private helicopters in Queensland to be made available to be used in flood emergencies or in other kind of natural disasters, and I'm just wondering who would fly those helicopters?

CLIVE PALMER: Well there's two things. The pilots are regulated with licences by the Commonwealth, and it should be a condition of their licence that in the cases of natural disaster, they will make themselves available with the machine that they're flying for one day at the disposal of the Government.

As we rescued people last year against the advice of the police and saved over 60 lives, 30 rescues that we did, we were told that we couldn't do it and meanwhile there were 40 helicopters on the ground in Brisbane, 20 at the Gold Coast and 10 at the north coast.

If the Government had put them into the air, lives would have been saved. And the defence helicopters were so big that they were combat helicopters, not suitable for rescue and they would blow people off the rooves into the water.

That's what was happening in the Lockyer, that's what we tried to tell the flood inquiry, but they didn't want to let me testify. They didn't want to listen. And I'd endeavoured on three occasions to tell them that I wanted to come and testify and they wouldn't let us do it. And I'm sure the people that we saved know who they are and I'm sure they'll come out and publicly support what I'm saying..."


Lateline - 02/02/2012: Clive Palmer talks to Lateline (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3421955.htm)





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[spinex]

Might as well try and regulate the weather:ugh:, who is this all seeing, all knowing authority going to be, some tin god at EMQ? My understanding of the event is that the emergency services were completely overwhelmed in the early hours and it was personal initiative on the spot that carried the day. Exactly the same thing is likely to happen next time around. Maybe better to figure out why people weren't warned about the impending Lockyer Valley flood - I notice the flood inquiry ignored this in their hurry to nail the dam engineers to the barn door:mad:

Not so sure about Uncle Clive's idea though, sure his chopper did good, but I remember some interesting discussion about the Ch7 news chopper and their response to the family floating downstream on the car roof. If I recall it correctly, the consensus was that movie type heroics with skids on the roof was more likely to end in tears than do any good - disclaimer I don't fly fling wings and have no idea what the average Jet Ranger / R44 driver is capable of.

[chimbu warrior]

The pilots are regulated with licences by the Commonwealth, and it should be a condition of their licence that in the cases of natural disaster, they will make themselves available with the machine that they're flying for one day at the disposal of the Government.

This theory glosses over the fact that the owners/operators of the helicopters may not be so keen, and for a pilot to use his employers helicopter without consent may be seen to be a crime..............with far greater consequences for the pilot.

Why stop at rotary-wing? Why not include large transport aircraft that could be used in time of national emergency? After all they are ...."regulated with licences by the Commonwealth, and it should be a condition of their licence"....

Oh wait a minute, those 2 MD-82's are registered offshore, and allegedly flown by foreign pilots.......

Guess that this "condition of the licence" only applies to poor people.

[Howard Hughes]

You can't plan for what happend in Queensland, no single point of contact organisation would be able to cope with the volume of calls that happened on that day. Whatever the system I suspect it would reach breaking point in those circumstances.

As for Mr Palmers suggestion regarding helicopters, it may work but of course it couldn't be compulsory as not all aircraft are equipped, nor pilots qualified for such tasks. AUSSAR use a similar system, I have been involved in a number of impromptu AUSSAR searches over the years, in varying aircraft types, where a claim form is faxed to the operator for charging after the event.

[shinning]

Nice idea by Clive but may be hard to do in reality. Average Joe Helicopter pilot may be a resource to use in some circumstances such as being able to land in an isolated area, bringing supplies, or ferrying stranded people out, but I suspect plucking scared, panicky people, off the top of houses in possibly adverse flying conditions may be beyond the skill set of many.

Weather conditions on the day in question were terrible for the most part. I recall seeing rescue helicopters flying in heavy rain, below a cloud base that I would guess to have been about 1000-1500ft, up a valley, past high tension powerlines etc, enroute to the Lockyer Valley. All in a day's work for trained, professional rescue crews, but possibly a little overwhelming for others.

[Jamair]

While there are some valid points made regarding better (centralised) coordination, the very definition of a 'disaster' is an event that overwhelms the system and its resources. It cannot be legislated away.

The concept of throwing untrained crews at a scene, without regard for level of equipment, experience or weather and applying emotional pressure that 'lives are at risk' is a recipe for increasing the disaster, not reducing it.

[SgtBundy]

While the concept of a mandatory "conscription" of chopper pilots for this sort of event sounds like asking for disaster, why not have a voluntary one? Find some funds for training to give to pilots and operators who wish to make themselves available for this sort of work, and track them in a national registry. Find funding for getting suitable equipment available to equip choppers in these situations to help with rescues. When needed they can be asked to help.

I recall there was some discussion at the time that traffic separation and co-ordination were an issue on those days. I can't imagine having dozens of blow ins, however good their intentions, is going to be improve that situation.

[Trojan1981]

You could do it using appropriately trained crews and equipped helicopters, like the fire fighting system. But CP has more money than intelligence. To put a random bunch of Private helicopters into that would have ended in disaster.

Also what is he on about, Military helicopters being too big? Seakings and S-70 variants are used for SAR all over the world. He has no idea what he is on about. In the early stages vis was so bad that the radar equipped Seakings were being used to guide formating Blackhawks into the valley. Perhaps next time a small detatchment of Seahawks would be of use.

[Flying Binghi]

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I guess C.P. were a bit distressed at the time so it is understandable that he is looking for some way to ensure it dont happen again...

"...I had five workers on top of one of our buildings; 18 hours they waited for a pick-up and it still didn't come. We sent our helicopter into the Lockyer, got those people out and we rescued another 30 people in the Lockyer Valley...

...meanwhile there were 40 helicopters on the ground in Brisbane, 20 at the Gold Coast and 10 at the north coast..."

Lateline - 02/02/2012: Clive Palmer talks to Lateline (http://www.abc.net.au/lateline/content/2012/s3421955.htm)


After reading the comments it seems using private helicopters and untrained pilots wont work in the way C.P. is suggesting. Probably best left to private owner/pilots to take their own initiative as it is now.

Certainly some fairly simple 'spotter' jobs available for private heli's - I'm told after the Brisbane valley floods one of the local police stations were asking local private Heli operators if they could go and have a look-see at some residences they had been unable to get to. Apparently the rescue heli's were all fully occupied at the time.






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[trashie]

Pretty scary stuff in my view having every helicopter and its dog in the same airspace without some sort of air traffic control and with proficiency and experience in the type of swift water operations that occurred in the Lockyer V.

Is being rescued from a roof and dying in a midair with an uncontrolled aircraft worth the risk.

[Al Fentanyl]

It's prolly another Rockefella / CIA / World Bank / Global Government conspiracy eh Clive? :suspect:

[Jamair]

The Mad Katter has just released a policy statement saying when he is in power he will transfer all the EMQ helicopters to the police.... Should be amusing, watching $17AUD aeromedical helicopters doing traffic patrol (complete with rescue crew and paramedic) at $10K / hr :rolleyes:

[Flying Binghi]

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via Al Fentanyl;
It's prolly another Rockefella / CIA / World Bank / Global Government conspiracy eh Clive?

Al Fentanyl, i'll comment on that off topic remark as it reflects on C.P.s flood comments.

Al Fentanyl if yer look into the global warming nonsence you soon discover there is a campain to destroy coal mining. IMO C.P's over-reacted a bit thinking he is being singled out, though he is correct to be feeling under attack.

While much of the coal destroying effort is out in the open, some is not so open...

"...Several groups named in a secret Greenpeace-led coalition to destroy the coal industry have received almost $750,000 in federal funding.
According to analysis by The Australian...

...Last week Treasurer Wayne Swan slammed the Greenpeace plans as "deeply irresponsible" and "completely irrational and destructive..."

http://www.miningaustralia.com.au/news/anti-mining-activists-received-taxpayer-funds


As for any CIA involvement... well, do a BING search for "Obama wants to bankrupt the coal industry" There are youtube videos in his own words. ...are the CIA involved... who knows, though they do tend to take directions from the President...



On the way back to helicopters and floods, a little diversion...
Our own Dick Smith has got a dose of the global warming hysteria. In his book "Dick Smith's Population Crisis" (yer can make some fun with that title..:)) he refers to the science advice he recieved from a Professor Steve Schneider. Suggested BING search is "Al Gore, Professor Steve Schneider" Seems poor ol D.S. has been taken fer a pattsy...








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[Flying Binghi]

via Jamair;
The Mad Katter has just released a policy statement saying when he is in power he will transfer all the EMQ helicopters to the police.... Should be amusing, watching $17AUD aeromedical helicopters doing traffic patrol (complete with rescue crew and paramedic) at $10K / hr

Jamair, is that the intention - to use rescue choppers for traffic dutys ? ....






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[Jamair]

That's from his press release.
Highlights - Emergency Services and Policing
• Transfer responsibility for the Emergency Management Queensland Helicopters
to the Queensland Police Service to deliver a permanent police helicopter
service for the Gold Coast, Brisbane, Townsville and Cairns.

Nothing there about how he proposes to manage the workload they already have which is 65-75% aeromedical transport, maybe 15-20% primary aeromedical response and the balance in SAR.

[Flying Binghi]

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via Jamair; Nothing there about how he proposes to manage the workload they already have which is 65-75% aeromedical transport, maybe 15-20% primary aeromedical response and the balance in SAR.

Dunno, maybe he's looking to increase the heli fleet/ hours/ hire ?

Katter spends a lot of time pax-ing in light aircraft. I'd say he is fairly aviation literate by now from listening to all the 'drivers' expounding on the ills of GA et all. Maybe Katter's gleaned some good idea's for heli op's..:)

Anyway it goes, looks like QLD gets more heli usage...

via Brisbane times Policy Brief:

ALP - $7.5 million over the next three years to provide a permanent police helicopter for the Gold Coast. The money will allow police to lease and operate a helicopter for up to 15 hours a week on average.


LNP - $18 million over four years to deliver two police helicopters for the Gold Coast and southeast Queensland. The helicopters will each be available for 20 hours a week.


KAP - Transfer responsibility for the Emergency Management Queensland Helicopters to the Queensland Police Service to deliver a permanent police helicopter service for the Gold Coast, Brisbane, Townsville and Cairns.


Policy Brief: Law and order | brisbanetimes.com.au (http://m.brisbanetimes.com.au/queensland/policy-brief-law-and-order-20120315-1v574.html)





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[chimbu warrior]

The Mad Katter has just released a policy statement saying when he is in power

I think Bob might be losing the plot...........he is a member of the House of Representatives (read Federal parliament), but the election he refers to (and the Police) are for the state of Queensland. Unless I am very mistaken, he will never be "in power", much less in a position to make changes to EMQ.

Maybe he needs a bigger hat to keep the sun off. ;)

[Jabawocky]

CW :ok: plot long gone I would say.

ALP saying don't give the LNP too much power, heck thats what they had for how long? Lost the plot too.