RAF Radar Bomb Score Units (RBSU)

[Yellow Sun]

As a user, I recall the RBSUs at Lindholme and Coningsby (Tumby Bomb Plot) and also the facility in the Western Isles that we used; Gernish; although that was not a dedicated RBSU. In addition I know that there was one in Germany, parented by Gutersloh. However I seem to recall that there was an earlier location at Glasgow, located at RAF Bishopbriggs. I can find no reference to this unit, can anyone help?

YS

[chevvron]

There was also one at Luce Bay near West Freugh; I remember the guys at the Lindholme unit saying they'd worked there (presumably a det) but I think it may usually have been operated by RAE.
The Lindholme unit was still in operation in '73 although the airfield had closed (radar unit - Northern Radar - still open too)

[Yellow Sun]

West Freugh had that capability and may well have utilised the same equipment as the RBSUs. The RBSUs were mobile and I recall one of them, Tunby(?), being deployed to Dunkeswell (callsign "Devon Bomb Plot") for one of the Bombing Competitions.

The Bishopbriggs RBSU may also have been a temporary location.

YS

[Barksdale Boy]

Did not Devon and Tumby operate simultaneously and independently of each other, certainly from 67 until at least 73?

[Yellow Sun]

Did not Devon and Tumby operate simultaneously and independently of each other, certainly from 67 until at least 73?

I don't know, there was certainly a detachment at Dunkeswell in the early 70's. Apart from the bombing comps., there was a fairly lengthy ecm trial conducted that utilised the RBSU.

The one that I am interested in, Bishopbriggs, was probably gone by the time the Mk2s came into service.

YS

[Fareastdriver]

IIRC Kings Cross Station was a target in 1962. Who looked after that?

[Yellow Sun]

I think that I have now found the answer here (http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/172372-vulcans-over-glasgow.html) in post#3 by PN.

A summary of the answer:

Glasgow Bombplot had closed before the end of the '60s. It may have been the one that moved to Gernish in the Outer Herbrides.

The other high level bombplots at Ouston, Haydock and Kenley all closed and moved to Tumby near Coningsby, Lindholme and Dunkeswell.

Ouston had been able to score popup attacks on Newcastle but the presence of the increasingly busy airport and the undulating terrain made it unsuitable as a low level plot.

From time to time one of the plots relocated to Sleep, usually for competitions.

So the remaining question is:

Can anyone provide the dates when Glasgow Bombplot was active?

YS

[JW411]

Please forgive if this is of no interest to you. In my 18 years as a pilot I was always in Transport Command (or whatever new name they called that week). However, in my spare time, I was heavily into the RAFGSA gliding movement.

I "borrowed a workshop" at Swanton Morley at the end of 1971 to rebuild a glider and, one night, a F/O walked in in uniform. It transpired that he was also heavily involved with the RAFGSA movement and was therefore very welcome.

He was basically a Vulcan co-pilot who had committed some sort of outrage and he had been put in charge of a mobile V-bomber marking team. He had several specialised vehicles parked on the north side of Swanton Morley.

I would love to put him on to this thread but he sadly b*ggered off to the hangar in the sky last year.

[Yellow Sun]

He was basically a Vulcan co-pilot who had committed some sort of outrage and he had been put in charge of a mobile V-bomber marking team.

That sounds about par for the course. There can't have been any slots for bone dome fitters at North Luffenham at the time:(

YS

[renfrew]

Yellow Sun.
In Glasgow,in the early 60's,on a VHF airband radio I several times heard an aircraft apparently making a bomb run and speaking to someone on the ground.
Is this what I was hearing?

Bishopbriggs is to the north of Glasgow and I did once go to a Battle of Britain day there.

[Yellow Sun]

In Glasgow,in the early 60's,on a VHF airband radio I several times heard an aircraft apparently making a bomb run and speaking to someone on the ground.
Is this what I was hearing?

Sorry, but how would I know what you heard nearly 50 years ago?

YS

[Hipper]

On 12th August 1960 Valiant XD864 was due to fly a Profile which 'included four simulated bombing attacks against UK Radar Bomb Score Units'

According to the ATC Flight Plan the grid references were:

55 52N 04 15W (which I make Glasgow)
54 58N 01 38W (about Gateshead)
53 26N 02 58W (Liverpool)
52 25N 00 45E (Thetford)

I was told that the Glasgow target was the corner of a building.

[26Group]

The RBMU was located on the East site at RAF Bishopbriggs some distance from the old Balloon Hangers. It arrived in the later part of the fifties and was there for several years. Probably leaving about 1962. The station during these years had ceased to be a training base (basic) and was home to the Glasgow Centre of the Royal Observer Corps, a store for the Civil Defence Corp and a major store of emergency transport equipment.

[sisemen]

I seem to remember that 112 SU was at Stornoway. BCDU (ECMSDF) did most of its work with them.

[Yellow Sun]

26Group

Thank you for that information, it pretty well confirms what I had surmised. The closure date may have been early 1963 as a nav rad friend recalls using the unit and thinks it was probably around then rather than '62.

YS

[Mickj3]

For three months in 62 I was detached from Scampton to Methwold Bomb Plot (721 Signals Unit) which the V bombers used to do bomb runs on various targets in the area. If my memory is correct one such target was the swing bridge at Sutton Bridge. We were accomodated at RAF Feltwell, then a THOR base.

[Liobian]

I believe sisemen is correct. During my time up there, in the 1980s, the small RAF unit was still in place, but had ceased scoring the Vulcan bomb runs.
The Liverpool 'target', I was once told, was a city-centre police station, near to the Philarmonic Hall.

[air pig]

The police station was the Liverpool City Police headquarters on Harman Street.

[Barksdale Boy]

Before we know what's happening there'll be a thread - What was your favourite offset?

[Yellow Sun]

What was your favourite offset?

Well I'm told most that most Nav Rads swore by Flixboro' works but then all of a sudden had to find a new one:8

YS

[Barksdale Boy]

Flixborough Works was always a bit heavy duty. There was a nice little pylon just to the wsw of Moores Farm.

We should stop this now.

[Rerun 57]

Used to hear USAFE F-111s from Heyford telling their ops they were heading for Tumby or Lindholme bomb plot. Early 1970s. How did these (bomb plots) work?

[t7a]

The bomber would overfly an Initial Point where it would be picked up and locked onto by a tracking radar (I can't remember the radar type, but it was mounted on a mobile unit). The radar track was fed to a plotting table on another mobile unit. Prior to weapon release, the aircraft would transmit a tone which stopped at weapon release. This produced a spike on the plotting trace from which, using weapon forward throw and aircraft groundspeed an impact point could be plotted relative to the target position.

[Rerun 57]

Many thanks for that. I have often wondered - so was it limited to level bomb runs?

[Hipper]

How did it work?

You use this stuff. Simple!:

Tatjana van Vark ~ Navigation and Bombing System NBS (http://www.tatjavanvark.nl/tvve/dduck0.html)

(I make no apologies for posting this again!)

[Rerun 57]

Simply complicated!

[t7a]

Bearing in mind that the RBSUs existed to score simulated nuclear strikes by the V force, only level attacks were scored to my knowledge. I suppose that a toss attack could be scored in theory but I suspect that the score accuracy might not be very good.

[26Group]

In 1973 I visited the Lindholme unit and watched a Vulcan plot using, I think a Gainsburgh target. The team there praised the F-111 guys out of Upper Heyford on their ability and accuracy gained from service in Vietnam.

[sisemen]

Well I'm told most that most Nav Rads swore by Flixboro' works but then all of a sudden had to find a new one

Flixborough :}:} Boom, boom:}

[A30yoyo]

Possibly for a previous and almost extinct generation but does anybody have anything on the 'London Bomb Range?' which was operated on Heston Airfield in the early 50s by the 3903 RBS unit, USAF....I grew up on the edge of the field in that period.....used by USAF, USN and RAF, I believe

[Avionker]

My father was in the RAF from 1960 to '63. He was stationed at Bishopbriggs, working on the BSU during some of that period. I'll ask him exactly when he was there when I talk to him next.

[Avionker]

The RBSU at Bishopbriggs was still operational in July 1963 when my father was discharged from the RAF. Beyond that date he has no idea how long it was there for.

[Pontius Navigator]

Did not Devon and Tumby operate simultaneously and independently of each other, certainly from 67 until at least 73?
Resurrecting and old thread:

Latterly Dunkeswell and Tumby were operational at the same time. However Dunkeswell was first used as a one-off competition site. Boxes of vert photos and stereo viewers were delivered to each wing. Bill Cooper at Waddo took charge and declared it would be a Wing effort. He found a large and well defined hill, ideally sited in the approach about 5 miles before the target (IIRC) and an excellent lead in offset. Of course pre-comp devices were forbidden but I suspect there were a few PDs to St Mawgan.

By 1970 Dunkeswell was a fully fledged, if unpopular, bomb plot. It was off the beaten track for both high level and low level attacks. The low level in the south coast was particularly boring for navigation. However it was so under used that they always gave good scores to encourage more trade.

[Pontius Navigator]

Possibly for a previous and almost extinct generation but does anybody have anything on the 'London Bomb Range?' which was operated on Heston Airfield in the early 50s by the 3903 RBS unit, USAF....I grew up on the edge of the field in that period.....used by USAF, USN and RAF, I believe3903rd Radar Bomb Scoring Group - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/3903rd_Radar_Bomb_Scoring_Group)

By 1964 that unit had probably gone and an RAF RBSU had been established at RAF Kenley.

[Tankertrashnav]

When on Hastings doing the NBS course I was supposed to attack a reservoir dam up in North Yorkshire. I misidentified it and "bombed" one in the next valley, which had a very similar response on the H2S (well anyone can make a mistake).

The RBSU duly scored my bomb and sent an error of nine miles (we were hoping for about 400 yards). Messed up my bombing figures bigtime and probably clinched my posting to Victor tankers instead of Vulcans, so it wasn't all bad!

[Pontius Navigator]

The Americans, specifically 1CEG, used to change target letters. On my first attack at Watertown I got a score of about 30,000 feet :(

I didn't find out why before I loaned my offset details to Terry Lynn on 35. He got a very similar score to mine; showed the offset was good :) He also had a No hats interview at Bawtry Hall with the AOC, an unheard of honour for a mere nav rad. When I met him 30 years later he still hadn't forgotten.

My next attack at Watertown was planned in detail even down to noting the target letter was to change the week we were to go. Made a good attack on the 'new' target. The bomb plot then asked us to confirm the target as we had appeared to attack a different one. Quick as a flash we confirmed we had attacked the target they suggested. We were correct; they hadn't amended their target list.

[BEagle]

One of the best visual IPs near Dunkeswell was the 'Government Radio Station' at Trickey Warren, which was an outstation of the 'Composite Signals Organisation' at the old RAF Culmhead.

A bright white building which could be seen for miles even at low level and it was also radar significant. Plus we knew that the spooks would never complain about the noise of 90 tons of tin triangle flying overhead at 300 ft / 350 KIAS as they wanted to keep their sneaky-beaky activities schtum....:E

If you dig out that old movie 'Strategic Air Command' which features James Stewart flying the B-36 and B-47, there's a piece in the film showing an RBSU in operation - of course Jimmy Stewart's crew score a 'shack' (DH)!

[Pontius Navigator]

The bomber would overfly an Initial Point where it would be picked up and locked onto by a tracking radar (I can't remember the radar type, but it was mounted on a mobile unit). The radar track was fed to a plotting table on another mobile unit. Prior to weapon release, the aircraft would transmit a tone which stopped at weapon release. This produced a spike on the plotting trace from which, using weapon forward throw and aircraft groundspeed an impact point could be plotted relative to the target position.
IIRC the radar up to the mid 60s was the AA No 3 Mk 7. The kit may have been old but the operators were good.

At high level we tended to fly a timing trombone flying away from the target and turning back to make the time on target. We would fly through an initial point 45 miles from the target on our declared track. The operators often picked us up flying away and held lock through the IP.

Against Haydock we used to do an equipment 28 run. This was usually on a south west track. At 45 miles they would lock up and we would break lock, strangle the jammer and wait for relock. The AEO was scored on his break lock time.

Against Ouston, and often on a north east track we would fly against their jammer. This was an untuned X-band jammer off the B50. Eventually there were no spares so ECCM ceased. Much earlier a 3-jammer complex on Brantub was very impressive.

[Chisel]

I was on operations at Tumby in early 70's. Interesting reading your comments.
Yes, we changed our call sign when we lumbered along the roads to various parts of the UK. (We were nicknamed The Flintstones). I think we were the only one of its kind left in UK at the time.
From Vulcans to B52's ... And some speedy fighters ....And some propeller types carrying out training flights at horrible slow speeds ... You were all sometimes hard to pinpoint in the skies around. No help from radar stations, just a beam in the sky.
Fun times were when the evening silence was broken by the radio, patched through to the ping pong table, crackling into life with some high flying, globe trotting B52 checking in to see if they could do a run. Always the calm, relaxed and polite drawl. Unlike the curt, short, no jokes raf pilots (well ... Not all :-) )
Lighter times with USAF UK based fighters were the crates of Budweiser they would send up "maybe in hope of some better scores".
Lots of stories ... But I guess they have to stay in my head ....

[Rerun 57]

I was on operations at Tumby in early 70's. Interesting reading your comments.
Yes, we changed our call sign when we lumbered along the roads to various parts of the UK. (We were nicknamed The Flintstones). I think we were the only one of its kind left in UK at the time.
From Vulcans to B52's ... And some speedy fighters ....And some propeller types carrying out training flights at horrible slow speeds ... You were all sometimes hard to pinpoint in the skies around. No help from radar stations, just a beam in the sky.
Fun times were when the evening silence was broken by the radio, patched through to the ping pong table, crackling into life with some high flying, globe trotting B52 checking in to see if they could do a run. Always the calm, relaxed and polite drawl. Unlike the curt, short, no jokes raf pilots (well ... Not all :-) )
Lighter times with USAF UK based fighters were the crates of Budweiser they would send up "maybe in hope of some better scores".
Lots of stories ... But I guess they have to stay in my head ....

Go on Chisel...would love to extract those stories from your head!

[tbwtg]

Found this old thread here when Googling elsewhere for something about Bishopbriggs. There's a little more info on the site at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HM_Prison_Low_Moss#RAF_Bishopbriggs

and on V-force navigation including target practice at London, Manchester, Newcastle and Glasgow at

http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk/navigation.html (http://www.blackmanbooks.co.uk/navigation.html)

[binbrook]

At the risk of thread-drift can anyone out there give me news of Gerry Turner, who flew with me in Canberras before going to the RBSUs at Ouston and then Haydock in 1960?

[mickie564]

Did not Devon and Tumby operate simultaneously and independently of each other, certainly from 67 until at least 73?
Yes they did i was at lindholme 69 to 73 and did attachments to both of them for a short period 1 months each as short of men and a unit detachment to Tain range Inverness for a UK USA bombing competition took us 2 or 3 days to get up there avoiding low bridges and over weight for the overrun brakes on the radar trailer behind a 3 tunnel great days

[POBJOY]

I well remember the 'Simulated bomb target' at RAF Kenley, as is was very close to the officers mess and more importantly even closer to Kenleys original 'bungalow ops room' which had survived the war but was demolished in the 70's. The fact that it survived the 18th Aug low level Dornier raid in 1940 should have protected it from the latter day destruction by the RAF, as it was still in its original condition as a classic example of how we had to fight the BoB with very little in the way of 'protected' facilities. This was the ops room that was replaced by a former butchers shop in Caterham, and latterly by 'The Range ' country house near Coulsdon. An ops room main equipment requirement was to to have multiple telephone lines to accept all the incoming data from Fighter Command, radar plots, the observer corps, and the Squadrons operating. As a sector station Kenley had an important role yet the ops rooms were only a surface building with a simple bund around it. Worse than that they were not even dispersed away from the primary airfield facilities so as alluded the Kenley one was a very lucky survivor, and should have been preserved.

[Pintoo]

I well remember the 'Simulated bomb target' at RAF Kenley, as is was very close to the officers mess and more importantly even closer to Kenleys original 'bungalow ops room' which had survived the war but was demolished in the 70's. The fact that it survived the 18th Aug low level Dornier raid in 1940 should have protected it from the latter day destruction by the RAF, as it was still in its original condition as a classic example of how we had to fight the BoB with very little in the way of 'protected' facilities. This was the ops room that was replaced by a former butchers shop in Caterham, and latterly by 'The Range ' country house near Coulsdon. An ops room main equipment requirement was to to have multiple telephone lines to accept all the incoming data from Fighter Command, radar plots, the observer corps, and the Squadrons operating. As a sector station Kenley had an important role yet the ops rooms were only a surface building with a simple bund around it. Worse than that they were not even dispersed away from the primary airfield facilities so as alluded the Kenley one was a very lucky survivor, and should have been preserved.

Small correction: I well remember the 'Simulated bomb target' at RAF Kenley, The RBSU was at Kenley with the simulated targets around London. I remember using Apsley House at Hyde Park Corner as an aiming point. Green Park and Hyde Park were well defined 'no show' areas and HPC was a good offset.