Planes may leave late in new system - Perth

[Capn Bloggs]

From The West, today...
Flights out of Perth's congested airport could be delayed up to 45 minutes from their advertised departure times from tomorrow with the introduction of a schedule co-ordination system to prevent long queues of planes waiting to take-off.

According to air traffic control provider AirServices Australia, the slot system is required because Perth Airport's runways cannot handle demand from fly-in, fly-out flights from Tuesday to Thursday between 5.30am and 8.30am.

The change will mean passengers will spend more time in departure lounges instead of in planes on the tarmac. Airlines will advise the night before of their timetable and AirServices will advise a slot time for push back depending on forecast weather conditions.

Under the system, passengers may find that a 6.30am departure may be delayed up to 45 minutes in a worst case scenario but they should experience no delay once their plane is pushed back from the terminal.

To alleviate congestion at Perth, AirServices started delaying the departure of Perth-bound flights from Sydney and also slowed them up across the country. That system will be extended to Melbourne to Perth flights this year.

Plane movements at Perth Airport have doubled in 10 years and are expected to reach 139,000 this year - years ahead of forecast.

At the current rate, the airport will reach its runway capacity of more than 200,000 flights in and out a year by 2020, but well before that date will be at maximum capacity during the week.

In December the State Government launched a strategy review of WA's aviation sector to ensure policies and infrastructure plans at key airports can meet unprecedented resources-driven growth.

At the launch, Transport Minister Troy Buswell said he wanted to ensure that infrastructure was in place to enable, not impede, growth.

The review will look at key issues such as a third runway at Perth Airport to ease congestion at peak times, strategies to cut airport noise, relocating the airport in the longer term and regional aviation development.

Perth Airport chief executive Brad Geatches said at the launch of the inquiry that it was willing to look at a third runway.

The "planes" are leaving late now (and have been for some years). The only difference is that the new system will (hopefully) make the lateness a little less "adhoc" (until the slot adjustments start at 5.45...:ouch:).

[neville_nobody]

In the last review only last year Perth airport was adamant that there was no requirement for new runway and they could contain growth in the current setup...............maybe not

[SpannerTwister]

Wondering how the new "Perth Controlled Departure Times" will mix with "Sydney Controlled Arrival Times" ?

"So sorry.....Your (timetable scheduled) departure time from Perth has been delayed 45 minutes, but on the bright side, we've got a slot for you in Sydney, 15 minutes earlier to your (timetable schedule) arrival time"

Warp Speed 2 Scotty !

ST

( Nah, that wouldn't happen, AirServices would be better coordinated then that ??)

[gordonfvckingramsay]

All well and good for the minister to sit down with the parties concerned and discuss future infrastructure. In the mean time though, the airlines are the ones footing the bill for extended delays at the holding point; despite taxiing on time. God only knows the cost (to the airline) of fuel and airframe hours being burnt up every day just over the horizon; out of site out of mind perhaps. Meanwhile, the only "infrastructure" being built at Perth airport is more carparks and a half million dollar smokers hut. The new taxiways are nice and smooth and new looking, but they missed the opportunity to build high speed taxiways, instead opting for the standard option that provides no tangible increase in movements.

Perth airport is already a laughing stock and getting worse! Nationalise the lot I say, private enterprise has proven itself to be useless. :ugh:

[LeadSled]

Folks,
I would love to know why the "capacity" is quoted as 200,000 per. year??

How about differential pricing to iron out the peaks, and a few strategically place high speed exits to up the traffic rate exiting after landing.

Compared to many European or US airports, runway utilization is generally low in AU, and with limits in a place like Sydney of 80 per hour, with three runways, there is no incentive to get smarter.

For a runway used for arrivals and departures, 35 per hour shouldn't be too much of a stretch, higher is possible, but it requires a level of cooperation and flexibility between pilots and ATC that is a stranger to Australia, and Australian "rules".

Tootle pip!!

[bubblyguy]

The amount of work airlines need to do for this new system is quite ridiculous.

I personally don't understand why the current slot time system couldn't be continued?

The spreadsheet, web system and then notification to crew of the actual time provided seems like a lot of work compared to just radioing for a slot time on the ground.

Guess we will all see how well this works.

[NIK320]

Nationalise the lot I say, private enterprise has proven itself to be useless.I doubt that would work either.
The average citizen doesn't fly often enough for the government to warrant expenditure on aviation infrastructure.
Our landing fees will be used to pay for roads, schools or whatever the electorate is complaining about.

[boocs]

HKF???

b.

[lk978]

What do they mean by "may", everyone already is delayed... actually 45 minutes may be an improvement for some.

[HulaBula]

Look on the bright side.
Airport coffee shops and souvenir shops will win.
You will have time to buy a newspaper, order a coffee from the galley, scratch your b@lls, program the FMS, brief properly, chat to the cute new FA, get minor maintenance attended to before you launch...
Or am I dreaming?

[lk978]

I would like to see a line up next to the passenger screening where all the pilots line up to get there tickets... then over the loud speaker "Number A36 we are ready for you now to taxi"... the challenge would then be put out for the crews to come up with the most imaginative celebration dance like they seppo's do in their football.... :ok:

Imagine the conversations that would happen in a waiting room full of pilots... probably something along the lines of "...... this big"

[Engineer_aus]

Oh this is going to work well.
Miner A rocks up at 0600 for his 0700 departure to be then told he is leaving at 0745, so then he goes for a wonder.

Boarding call is made at 0715 and no where to be found is miner A..... Going to be plenty of more delays. Brilliant idea......:ugh:

[2bigmellons]

So how did events at PH unfold this morning? As expected?

[HF3000]

From what I hear it's still boarding on schedule. You will just be sitting in the aircraft waiting at the gate instead of on the taxiway.

[hongkongfooey]

I completely disagree that PH is in the 10 worst airports in the world, it's definitely the 2nd best airport in the world........... ;)

Leadsled is right, the so called " capacity " of Perth airport is a bad joke promulgated by public servants and ridiculously restrictive rules. Why was LAHSO stopped ? Why are there no rapid exits ? Why are there never departures off 24, is it because of the joke of a taxiway system ? ( how long did it take to get taxiway V ? ) 20 min holding in CAVOK and when you finally arrive in the circuit it's a friggin ghost town, the list goes on and on.

[RATpin]

Spot on HKF, several weeks ago, clearance received for departure off RWY24 due works in progress RWY21. On requesting push approval, change of RWY, 21 now operational. Requested 24 being a lazy type, advised that it was "No longer available due noise abatement procedures ".
Ok if It was 0300,however,this was 1230 local on a saturday arvo!
On a similar vane,why is it that most Countries I've visited over the years, given critical infrastructure requirements, work carries on 24/7.
In good old Oz it's 9 to 5 Mon to Fri apparently.
Laughable Joke,
Lucky Country means lucky nobody is held accountable.

[thorn bird]

Now if I recall correctly in the USA there are fines for airlines who keep self loading cargo on the ground on board over a certain period. Perhaps if these fines applied to airport operators who kept aircraft holding for too long they'd be building multiple runways as fast as they could, after all they and the government are the only ones making money out of aviation these days.

[ranmar850]

From what I hear it's still boarding on schedule. You will just be sitting in the aircraft waiting at the gate instead of on the taxiway.

None of this is news to anyone who is a regular user. As regular domestic SLF, the days are rare when you board on time, pushback immediately when fully boarded, and taxi to a short hold before takeoff. Maybe the early Friday morning flight home. Otherwise, you are always sitting.... somewhere....waits of up to 45 minutes are not uncommon. The only downside to a Kindle as reading matter:hmm:

[Engineer_aus]

I just got off the phone to my mate in Perth. He said that there was a few delays today between 15-30 mins. Our best mate GT was not far off the 45min mark.

[system.of.a.down]

The new system is called Metron, it is much better then the current CTMS. I have had a brief overview of it.

Metron Aviation: Concept Engineering, Advanced Research, Air Traffic Flow Management, Collaborative Decision Making (http://www.metronaviation.com/)

[sleeve of wizard]

New airport plan set to reduce noise - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/newshome/13170384/new-airport-plan-set-to-reduce-noise/)

[flyingfox]

Another pathetic attempt to avoid building a new 'turbo-prop' runway.

[hongkongfooey]

What a complete and utter load of crap !! Another tiny band aid being applied to the massive, infected, pus riddled sore AKA Perth airport.
The runway that affects most residents, noise wise, would have to be RW21, coincidentally the runway that seems to be used the most. How many t/props use D intersection ? A handful of Skywest F50s.
If anyone needed any more convincing what a bunch of morons WAC and AA are then surely this is the crowning turd in the water pipe .

[Icarus2001]

Yet another cluster this morning. We called taxi on time and had nine aircraft in front of us. So where was the bottle neck? Not being launched quick enough. Why? Only one runway, being 21, in use. Wind was NE with 4-5 knots downwind! Why not use 03/06 combination which would A be the best runway for aircraft to actually use (you know, the resaon the airport is there) and B it would have given ATC more capacity to launch.

Third world by design.

[Nautilus Blue]

Icarus2000 and HKF, Perth RWY priority due noise abatement is 21 and/or 24, then 03 then 06, arrivals and departures. On a dry RWY with 5 knots or less downwind, those are the runways that MUST be used. ATC has no say in the matter. The rules have to be obeyed, they don't have to make sense.

[Super Ord]

Taxied yesterday at 3.15 to join about 15 other aircraft holding for 21. A light aircraft was holding overhead the tower and nothing moved for quite some time. can anyone tell me what was going on?

[dogebros]

The "new" metron system is a system designed by people who think we have busy airports here in Australia whereas in actual fact the airports are quite quiet. Is Sydney flow control in contact with Perth flow? Is Brisbane talking to Sydney? They talk about controlled push back times but the real issue here is the airborne time not push back. To slot you in to an arrival space at an airport air traffic control need to control your airborne time. Off chocks time has nothing to do with it! What if you get caught behind an aircraft that then delays your airborne time? Why not follow countries that ARE actually busy and implement their system and learn from their experience? Another example where Australia thinks it is a world leader but in fact lags behind considerably. Very frustrating indeed!! :ugh:

[hongkongfooey]

Nautilus, I don't doubt your word but that just reinforces how ridiculous and nonsensical Perth airport is. A quick look at google maps will show that there is far more housing under 21/24 flight paths than 03/06 so which politician lives under the 03/06 flight path ???
Also, why the hell do they bother printing departure procedures for 24 when they are never used ? Why have 6 A/C lined up on whiskey when 2-3 of those could be filed across to 24 instead of doing FA while waiting for wake seperation or worse, trg A/c doing an ILS, dont start me on that one .
Dodge, spot on, they ( the powers that be ? ) are convinced it is a busy airport, when I hear things like " we have reached capacity " it makes me :yuk:
Sure, with the BS use of RWs and ridiculous 10 mile seperation, they may well have " reached capacity " , so are they just going to keep screwing over the customer ( us ) or are they going to do something about it ? Hang on, stupid question, it is Perth after all.

[Nautilus Blue]

Why not follow countries that ARE actually busy and implement their system and learn from their experience?


Umm, thats what METRON is;

Founded in 1995, Metron Aviation pioneered the advancement of air traffic flow management (ATFM), working with the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) to develop the industry’s first collaborative decision making (CDM) platform for optimizing system-wide traffic flow. Metron Aviation provides concept engineering, advanced research, software development, traffic flow management, surface operations management, airspace design and environmental research and analysis solutions to the global aviation industry. Metron Aviation fuses advanced science and mathematics with unparalleled subject-matter expertise to turn groundbreaking air traffic management (ATM) research concepts into next-generation operational capabilities.

Recently, Metron Aviation was the recipient of the largest small business award in FAA history, System Engineering 2020 (SE-2020). Additionally, South Africa’s air traffic and navigation services (ATNS) began live operations with Metron Aviation’s ATFM solution this year, while Airservices Australia is in the process of deploying the ATFM solution to support its long-term gate-to-gate CDM vision.

HKF

As far as I can tell the noise abatement priorities are weighted towards arrivals rather than departures. If you think about it, 21/24 flight paths are almost the same as 03/06, e.g. a 21 departure is a 03 arrival.

The ten miles trail comes form required spacing for landing. At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed, the runway won't be clear when you need a landing clearance. You can't be slower than preceding traffic because you run out of slower speeds for each successive arrival. (I gather that in the US the RWY does not need to be clear for a landing clearance to be issued, but rules like that are out of ATC hands in Aus). Remember, for an arrivals sequence, the further apart I need to spread you out the more work I have to do. Likewise the more a/c we can land per hour, the less work I have to do, so I can assure you it's not laziness.

For departures the bottleneck is not the runways but the airspace out to about 50nm. We've done this to death in various other threads, but remember when your wheels leave the ground you aircraft becomes 3nm wide and 3nm long. When you call ML centre at about 10nm out, you become it becomes 5nm.

Personally I think the next thing to do is 'sequence' the departures. If aircraft are being delayed on the ground anyway, why not put then in the most efficient order? Rather than say 5 turbos nose to tail to the NE then 6 jets one after another to the north (146's and F100's in front of B737's as often as not).

[hongkongfooey]

Thanks for the explanation Nautilus, I personally think most of the ATC people do the best they can but it's a crap system with, obviously, too much seperation and it's only going to get worse as traffic continues to increase. Other airports around the world handle far more traffic with 2 runways with their own unique problems as well eg terrain, airspace etc.
Something other than WAC and/or AA sticking their heads in the sand and saying we've reached capacity, needs to be done.
BTW, I think noise wise nothing competes with a droning, climbing at 160IAS turboprop.

[Hoofharted]

The ten miles trail comes form required spacing for landing. At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed, the runway won't be clear when you need a landing clearance.I'm sorry but every international airport that I have flown to/from outside good OL Aus (and there has been a few) requires a 5 mile separation between landing aircraft and the runway is always bloody well clear every time. Yet we require 10?
A lot of things may have been "done to death" but air traffic control in this country continues to be inefficient and amongst the worst I have experienced anywhere in the world year in year out. Despite the whatever we hear from ASA the "emperor continues to be naked".
Nothing personal towards anyone, just a cold hard fact.:ugh:

[le Pingouin]

Seriously? How many minutes apart do you think 10 miles represents at 30 miles? 2 - 2.5 minutes is the correct answer. The actual distance is immaterial (aside from maintaining a radar standard), it's how much time it represents that counts because that's the time spacing onto the runway.

How long does it take you from crossing the fence to vacating the runway? What about when there aren't adequate high speed exits?

I do arrivals into ML & if I hand off a domestic behind an International heavy with much less than 12 miles there won't be 5 miles on final without intervention.

[Centaurus]

Talking about delays and sorry for the slight thread drift but - The almost fanatical accent on `on-time` push backs invariably results in rushed cockpit checks which is not exactly conducive to the principles of flight safety.

Media published `on-time` figures may impress the self loading suits and bogans, but they don't see the hidden risks involved. Too many times the captain is forced to defend his actions to management if delays occur with management taking the view of the captain is guilty unless later proved innocent. Then the witch-hunt starts.

Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush...

[600ft-lb]

Everyone involved in the rush for on-time departure is eager to deflect blame back to the captain. I for one would regard the airline with the best `on-time` record as one to be careful about flying with. What vital checks have been missed in the rush...

So Qantas is the worst
Virgin is 2nd worst
Jetstar is the best.

and back when tiger had a 50% on time just before they were grounded, they were the most thorough.. obviously.

Good OTP is possible if everything is going to according to plan. If it's not going the plan I'd like to know which company would punish the pilot for not departing on schedule.

[Nautilus Blue]

Hoofharted - do you mean 5 nm at the threshold, or top of descent, genuinely curious?

[Capn Bloggs]

At about 30-40 miles out if you are less than 10 miles behind and the same speed

I'm sorry but every international airport that I have flown to/from outside good OL Aus (and there has been a few) requires a 5 mile separation between landing aircraft and the runway is always bloody well clear every time. Yet we require 10?

Read his lips. AT 30-40nm. After the second airframe has continued on at 250kt whilst the first decelerates, that distance will close up to much less. Depending on how the decelerations are flown by each aircraft, the distances can be close.

Be nice if someone had the balls to make all pilots fly a standard decel profile... Now that would be an ACE idea...

[hongkongfooey]

" airlines with the best OTP are the ones to be weary of ".....now I've heard everything.
Nautilus, 5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example.
Bloggsy, yes you hit the nail on the head, all pilots maintaining the same speeds, if you can't maintain 250IAS til 15 miles ( all things, weather/turbulence etc being equal ) then you really shouldn't be in charge or 2IC of an aircraft. (ok, unless your airframe is not capable of that)
In the US there are speed requirements which if not met will mean you go to the back of the queue, as it should be.
Like Hoof said, it's a turd and it can't be polished, changes need to be made.

[Nautilus Blue]

I'm certainly not saying the whole system isn't broken, just trying to explain my little bit of it :)

5nm from in excess of 100nm out, HK is one example

Interesting, a few follow on questions if I may?

- is that for unrestricted descent or step descent on top of preceding traffic?
- what speed control if any?
- is that straight in or onto downwind?
- what typically is the time from latest possible landing clearance to clear of runway?

PS re profiles, speed is only half the issue, alt is the other. For example, a domestic 737 10-12 miles behind an international A330 can easily be 10,000' higher. In practice you need considerable difference in IAS to match ground speeds.

[hongkongfooey]

Nautilus :
Generally speed control only, usually 250IAS to begin with 230IAS by 30nm and then 210IAS 15-20nm, of course if a local (or other) airline decided they wanted to do their own thing then all bets were off.
Usually straight in or a wide base.
Med behind heavy, min 5 miles on final, med behind med could be down to 3nm but yes they do have high speed exits, mind you once again evryones idea of hi speed seemed to vary somewhat, down to around 10-15kts .

5nm from 100nm. If you want lots of early speed control, step descents with multiple level assignement, and some vectors thrown in. Which sounds uselessThats the attitude I was looking for, ever been to a busy airport ?
As useless as holding for 10-20 mins ? or as useless as slowing down to min clean speed at 400nm out ?? both of which happen in Perth more than 50% of the time.

[Nautilus Blue]

OK, something doesn't compute. I know that if I have a heavy in front of a medium, 5 miles apart at 100nm, both descending at 250 kts, they will not still be 5 nm apart at 40nm let alone on final. The same way two like types will open up on climb out, even two like types will close on descent. How do the HK controllers stop the distance from closing up?

[Blockla]

How do the HK controllers stop the distance from closing up?They don't do it like that at all. Perhaps a naive attempt to 'prove' that Oz controllers are useless... Many HK procedures were developed by Ozzies who went there... As are many procedures in Dubai and many other busy international airports... Time is a constant. 420Kts G/S (7 miles a minute) at 100NM and 5NM spacing is close to 45 seconds, between aircraft, if they fly the exact same profile they will land close to 45 seconds apart and at 150KTs G/S crossing the fence that puts them only 1.8NM apart; which even in HK is too tight! And certainly wouldn't want a 'chain' of aircraft doing that.

[hongkongfooey]

Blockla, you are full of it, I flew in/out of HK for over 4 years, how bout you ?
We regularly landed 5 nm behind a heavy ( sometimes just over 3 behind a medium ), think about it, we were at 1500'/5nm/GS 2-2 1/2 miles a minute when the heavy touched down, not exactly ground breaking death defying stuff, but please carry on in your little dream world.

Nautilus, is was not a perfect system and of course not everyone can hold 250IAS to 15nm, I am not that stupid. There was vectoring, speed reductions etc but the cold hard facts are they handled nearly double the movements of PH with their own unique problems like terrain, weather, multiple different nationalities and multiple airspace restrictions very close to HK.
I am not saying Aus ATCs are useless , I am saying the current system was great 15 years ago but it is a joke now ( just like the whole airport ) and it will get markedly worse in coming years, something needs to be done other than saying " we've reached capacity ".

[Plazbot]

Hi Hong Kong Phooey. I think it is you that is full of it. For some basic sequencing facts...... Two aircraft 10 miles apart out on the cruise in the mid 300s flight level wise, if descending from say 100-110nm with a slow down to 250 knots 10-13000 feet on the arrival will see you need a 20 knot indicated diffference from the time they transition to the indicated speeds as the guy in front willl be around 2000ft below and for every 2000ft, you need 10 knots indicated of difference just to match the ground speeds plus the extra 10 knots to account for the ground speed slow down as they approach the star constraint of 250 knots and even then you willl physically have to pull the back aircraft to 250 knots about 15nm from the height/speed constraint point. That is to just keep to 10 miles. Now, at about 60 to touch down, with matched ground speeds to have 5nm at touch down, you need 10.2-10.4nm between the aircraft if you are going to use 230 knots at about 30, 210 at about 15 then allow (instruct) them to slow to the same speed on final. We do this day in and day out and while Hong kong is not somewhere I have worked, I am assuming the laws of physics work the same there. Interestinglly I have flown in there up the front and there are some seriously track mile chewing arrivals and the ATC use lots of short cuts on them to secuence.

So from the above, If you have a beautiful line of aircraft out in the cruise all exactly 10 miles apart to just keep that during the descent, first one comes down at 320, 300, 280, 260 and everyone gets slowed to 250 at the arrival point, 15, 30 and 45 miles away from it all in a big consateena. Throw a fifth aircraft into that and we have holding/vectoring. Four aircraft five miles apart in the cruise is two too many and will require some air traffic control to be inflicted. For example, the same scenario I used above, for each additional 10 knots of indicated difference, you will gain about a mile. To dumb it down, front guy at 310 knots, second guy at 290 knots keeps your gap, if they are 7 miles apart, you need an additional 30 knots to get your 10 so the back guy comes down at 260 knots. Throw another 30 into that and now we have serious delays. If you can force the aircraft to transition onto indicated (ie descend early) at about 140 miles, 30 knots will give you 10 miles from a dead heat (ie 310v280). This is all pure speed control, hands off ATC. I personally prefer to make you all go flat out, get down fast and stick you into a holding pattern where I can drive the speeds and the distances to actuallly make you get to where you need to be when we mant you as opposed to some lax interpretation of it.

edited to add, the above is pure speed control to keep SPACING as opposed to speed control to achieve a cross point@time scenario.

[neville_nobody]

Hazard Alerts out again for traffic holding today in Perth in severe CAVOK....

Not to sure how they're going to double capacity by 2020 with no infrastructure.

[Capn Bloggs]

It shouldn't be too long before the rogues are revealed. If there are no rogues, then the Metron arrival rate needs to be lowered!

It would also help greatly if the Metron Perth arrival slots were coordinated with the departure slots; no point in being assigned an outport COBT for the return to Perth that you're never going to achieve because you copped a 20 minute departure delay from Perth on the outbound leg...

Fooey, you're going a bit hard on the ATCOs. Failed physics, did you? ;)

[ranmar850]

Official announcement last night at West Angeles. Aircraft arrived on schedule," We are loading you immediately, but we will be sitting on the ground for 45 minutes due to our late arrival slot". Immediate loading probably down to some intermittent heavy weather in the area, giving flexibility to depart earlier if deemed necessary?

[Nautilus Blue]

HFK - to summarise, if you were 5nm behind a heavy when it touched down (which I am happy to believe), you weren't 5nm behind it at top of descent.

From your example, 5nm behind at 2.5 nm/min is two minutes between arrivals. 2 min spacing at cruise, say 7 nm/min is 14nm at top of descent. Please bear in mind arrival sequence distance has nothing to do with ATC rules, procedures, or abilities. It is down to how long you take from landing clearance to clear of runway.

Capn Bloggs - unfortunately, as far was I know, we never go back over bad arrival gaggles to see what went wrong. This and the fact we reward the rouges I think is a major failing on our part.

If METRON gave you unachievable times it would be pretty useless, and its from 'merika where they have real traffic so it can't be :)

ETA
Hazard Alerts out again for traffic holding today
That should be treated as an 'incident' and investigated.

[severidian]

Surely we should adopt the rest of the world procedures and apply compliance on late (get a new slot) as well as early..

[Blockla]

Blockla, you are full of it, I flew in/out of HK for over 4 years, how bout you ?Don't know why I'm bothering, but after 21 years of ATC mostly in Arrivals and Approach environments I do know a few things about spacing aircraft. I have been in the HK ATC centre and watched the controllers do their thing, how about you?

Did you even comprehend what I wrote I know I'm just a dumb controller, but ahem... you have clearly and comprehensively demonstrated your blinkered view of the world... Perhaps you may like to retract the "Full of it" remark when you actually understand it... But that is probably naive of me! Perhaps you can quote some more "science" at me...

say 7 nm/min is 14nm at top of descent. Exactly what I actually said, just in a different way! thanks, NB :ok:

[Roger Standby]

I hope that Metron is just having some teething problems, because the enroute and arrivals guys are hating it at the moment.

I think Bloggs is onto something as well regarding decel rates. Everyone's playing by different rules when we say "adjust speed to...". It doesn't help with a million different a/c types in the mix either.

As an example, we see the scenario every day where the 146 comes in, meeting his/her time and the groundspeed is almost a constant in the cruise as it is in descent. Qfa and Voz come hurtling in as number 2, at a higher altitude and overtake the 146, relying on dropping the anchors on descent. Problem is, they cant get down cos they're now overtaking and need vectors to get back behind/continue descent.

"But we're meeting our time". Not if I can't get you down, you're not. Maybe we need to get more proactive and make you go down earlier, but then that throws out all of your profiles, especially without notice. I'm not blaming the pilots at all, you're doing exactly as you were told. Most of the time, anyway :ok:

[Capn Bloggs]

I hope that Metron is just having some teething problems
I hope so too, because

ANTICIPATED AIRBORNE TRAFFIC DELAYS FOR ARRIVING ACFT
BTN 1100-1250 TO 40MIN

just doesn't make sense when everybody's got a COB time!

[DraggieDriver]

I think Bloggs is onto something as well regarding decel rates. Everyone's playing by different rules when we say "adjust speed to...". It doesn't help with a million different a/c types in the mix either.

Sounds like the RTA's should be on fixes before descent then, doesn't it. You do realise that even something as small as the visual star vs the ILS star can change the fix crossing time by over a minute, and a change in runway can affect the fix crossing time by 3 minutes, don't you? I have noticed the RTA's are now getting sent out a lot earlier, but it doesn't help all that much not receiving a star until inside 60nm of the top of descent.

[haughtney1]

Into PER the other night, bit of a sequencing nightmare, got given a direct to haige, then a vector, then a slowdown, then a speed up, then got asked if we could take a visual? Lotsa balls being juggled no doubt, but I'm starting to wonder......:oh:

[Plazbot]

"but it doesn't help all that much not receiving a star until inside 60nm of the top of descent. "

Seriously? Many places in the real world you are not locked onto an arrival until 60 to touch down let alone top of descent. You do realise there is more than one plane in the sky right?

[DraggieDriver]

Plazbot,

Leaving the star that late only gives you 6 minutes in the cruise to adjust your speed, which will comfortably only give you about +/- 30 seconds. This then leads to descent speeds and profiles which are wildly different from the standard un-impeded profile that would normally be flown, so ATC won't be able to predict what each aircraft is going to do to try to satisfy the fix crossing time. After finally satisfying that requirement at V-min+companyrequirement and the speed brake out, once past the fix speed restrictions are quite often lifted and track shortening is given to help the flow past the fix.

[Icarus2001]

You do realise that even something as small as the visual star vs the ILS star can change the fix crossing time by over a minute, and a change in runway can affect the fix crossing time by 3 minutes, don't you?

I am not sure that I understand your point. Do you mean the time required by ATC will change?

For a Julim 5A Star, the feeder fix is for Julim whether it is for runway 21 or 03. If the aircraft in the stream are seperated by two minutes then that is constant. As Bloggs pointed out the decel rates are then the issue and what happens inside 15nm.

I have lost count of the times I have been slowed after the feeder fix and then arrive at Woora with nothing between me and the threshold, that is 15nm space infront.

[DraggieDriver]

Icarus,

No, the point is the ATC required fix time does not change, but the aircraft's estimate of crossing the fix does - eg when it's all crosswind and the runway changes from 21 to 03, suddenly your profile through julim changes from about 10,500 to 19,000 feet - descent point moves about 25nm downtrack, you are at much higher TAS for much longer, so your estimate moves forward by up to 3 minutes. Now you and everyone else have to slow down to still meet the arbitrary julim requirement even though everyone is in the same boat and the spacing is still the same.

[Capn Bloggs]

Leaving the star that late only gives you 6 minutes in the cruise to adjust your speed, which will comfortably only give you about +/- 30 seconds.
Granted that could a problem if are given a 03 Instrument STAR from the North when you were expecting 21 but your speed will already be set because you would have got a Feeder Fix time well before then. So for 21, when you get the STAR is virtually irrelevant. The routing to the runway is the same and you will have set the speed to make your FF time well before.

As for late runway changes, I don't recall any major dramas or panic about feeder fix compliance; either you can or you can't, simple as that. Not your fault. ATC just manage with vectors until everything settles down.

Many places in the real world you are not locked onto an arrival until 60 to touch down let alone top of descent.
That may be so but when you don't know the arrival runway until you get the ATIS at 200 to run eg 21 or 03, managing a Feeder Fix time when the worst case (opposite runway/30 extra track miles to that expected) will result in a much quicker TAS through the fix/suddenly early, with little speed potential to correct at that late stage (can't slow down a lot up high).

[Icarus2001]

Okay, thanks Bloggs, I see what you thought he meant now.:rolleyes:

Surely we are also mixing two different systems here. If I have a published slot time to land in PH then that is my slot. I still get Julim fix times which do not in any way relate to that landing slot time. This means the system is already broken and flow and approach are trying to play catch up. It seems to me that even if most aircraft depart at COBT ATC still only really play the game of dealing with what they have got inbound and sequencing as they go. I can see why that would be the case and I am not criticising the controllers, just the system they are given to use. Then expecting us to carry 25-30 minutes traffic holding after delaying a departure by twenty minutes makes me wonder.:hmm:

It would also help greatly if the Metron Perth arrival slots were coordinated with the departure slots; no point in being assigned an outport COBT for the return to Perth that you're never going to achieve because you copped a 20 minute departure delay from Perth on the outbound leg...
Exactly. I took a thirty minute delay from PH with a seven minute delay from the destination. Broken by default, there is no way that it could work.

[Capn Bloggs]

Icarus, Metron (or CTMS before it) is designed to spread out the arrivals so the rate remains manageable, nothing more. Feeder Fix times then contorl the actual sequence to the runway. I thought that was obvious.

If I have a published slot time to land in PH then that is my slot. I still get Julim fix times which do not in any way relate to that landing slot time. This means the system is already broken
Are you implying we just ditch one or the other? If you think you can hit your "published slot time" to the +/- 30 seconds you're better than me. What about if you get held up departing an outport due to traffic? You just arrive 5 minutes late and land in formation with someone at their "landing slot time"?

Of course ATC has to fiddle/massage/delay/speed up aircraft by issuing feeder-fix times after everybody's in the air.

[le Pingouin]

Icarus, as seems to be usual these days, the ability of those responsible to swallow a sales pitch is better than their ability to deliver.

From a controller perspective anything other than the "natural" sequence or as you said "sequencing as we go" is the only sane way to handle a sequence. Anything else rapidly deteriorates into a dangerous farce.

[Nautilus Blue]

The "first come first served" vs METRON/CTMS order is an ongoing debate. Sequencing as they come is easier for ATC (which means safer and less messing a/c about), but gives companies no incentive to follow METRON, and in fact punishes those that do. Ph flows do seem to "deprioritise" early a/c, but it can make life interesting on arrivals.

I have lost count of the times I have been slowed after the feeder fix and then arrive at Woora with nothing between me and the threshold, that is 15nm space infront.

Possibly you were being sequenced behind a 24 landing?

[Icarus2001]

No, I did lookout for that one and no departures off 21 whilst we were inbound from Woora either.

TODAY: 50 minutes holding required during the middle of the day and also early evening as per NOTAM.

So a calculated slot and COBT AND 50 minutes holding required. This is having a bet both ways surely? If everyone is complying with their allocated time why would we need 50 minutes? If someone is not complying then let them hold for 50 minutes, no fuel, well off to the alternate it is then.

Is today a sign of what will happen come winter with all approaches IMC and full STAR flown. If so I am not looking forward to that.

Are you implying we just ditch one or the other? If you think you can hit your "published slot time" to the +/- 30 seconds you're better than me. What about if you get held up departing an outport due to traffic? You just arrive 5 minutes late and land in formation with someone at their "landing slot time"? Now you are being dumb on purpose. There is enough slack in the system to allow for last minute changes, there has to be to allow for departures.

[Capn Bloggs]

If everyone is complying with their allocated time why would we need 50 minutes?
It appears they aren't. The reports I've just seen indicate that there are many non-conformers. It was stated at RAPAC last week that Perth had a non-compliance rate of 25%, Sydney 7%. The extra holding at Perth is a result of the non-compliance.

Now you are being dumb on purpose.
No, I was simply pointing out that you cannot provide a decent landing sequence relying solely on landing slots; your words "If I have a published slot time to land in PH then that is my slot." I cannot guarantee achieving my touchdown time within 5 minutes, let alone a few seconds needed to get a tight sequence, and nor can you. You said "mixing two systems" and I said we must have the two systems: the axe-chop rough COBT at the takeoff end and the Feeder-Fix to-the-10-seconds (hopefully) at the landing end.

[Nautilus Blue]

Icarus2001 - I can see only two possibilities. Either there is other traffic that you are not aware of, or PH ATC are waging an extended campaign of malicious unnecessary speed reduction! Tinfoil hat or occam's razor?

I totally agree with the rest though. Ground delays and 50 minutes holding is not having a bet both ways it's extracting the urine. There are three problems though;

1. What to do with aircraft that are late? If you miss your slot by five mintes, and the next available slot is over two hours later (not uncommon) do we hold you for two hours, or fit you in and delay the next two hours worth of arrivals by one slot?

2. The current procedures only allow early aircraft to be "de-prioritised" by the published holding time, which may well be less than the ground delay given.

3. Worst, and I've actually had this happen.
- Aircraft gets 20 minutes of holding.
- Aircraft tells me, as per traffic notam, is only carrying 15 minutes holding.
- Flow won't bring aircraft forward in sequence unless declaring fuel emergency.
- Aircraft declines to declare emergency because is carrying published holding fuel.
- Ask aircraft for alternate, advises not holding one.
- Stalemate.

[DraggieDriver]

Nautilus Blue,

Could you please explain what the aircraft has done wrong in your scenario:


Aircraft gets 20 minutes of holding.
Aircraft tells me, as per traffic notam, is only carrying 15 minutes holding.
Flow won't bring aircraft forward in sequence unless declaring fuel emergency.
Aircraft declines to declare emergency because is carrying published holding fuel.
Ask aircraft for alternate, advises not holding one.
Stalemate.


Edit: assuming of course that COBT times if applicable were complied with

[Nautilus Blue]

Sorry, should of said, aircraft was early for its PTL (this was pre METRON). Even if it wasn't, remember the notam traffic holding time is NOT a maximum, it's an estimate.

[DraggieDriver]

Nautilus,

So what would the amount of holding fuel you think aircraft should hold when planning to land in Perth? Personally, I wouldn't depart with less than trip fuel plus holding to PTL, plus NOTAMed holding time, plus Weather holding/alternate as appropriate, plus variable reserve. But you seem to be implying that the minimum requirement isn't enough.

[Nautilus Blue]

DD, I guess what i mean is the notamed traffic delay is a forecast. Many crews seem to be under the impression it's a guaranted maximum. It's counter intuitive, but ATC has no control over how much holding is required on the day.

PS, if you need "holding to PTL" does that mean you're leaving earlier than you should :=

[Roger Standby]

It seems from the arrivals controller point of view that things have improved slightly over the past few weeks. Maybe the new system is doing it a little better, maybe not. There's been a discussion amongst us that non conformers or those being punished should be sent to an arbitrary waypoint off the published route (maybe called NORTY?) so that they aren't causing grief in a pattern while everyone else is coming through?

One bizarre trend that has become apparent is that when the big delay notams go out, there actually seems to be a lot less holding. Is that coincidence or do the notams encourage flights to be more time compliant?

[ranmar850]

The recent trend, from a passenger point of view, is that we seem to be doing a lot more waiting on the ground, prior to take-off, than holding in the air, recently. I always fly in on those peak periods. Previously, became accustomed to holding well north, watching other aircraft holding with us, or do the long way around, approaching from the south via Australind:rolleyes: Not uncommon to actually load and shut, then wait for an extended period. Then taxi out (last a/c for the day), and wait , lined up, for last light before actually getting airborne. Or, aircraft lands a bit late, does a VERY quick turnaround and buggers off, when they have obviously been given a favourable slot time, and mean to make it. It does seem to have changed.

[hongkongfooey]

Anyone who has flown outside of this little sheltered workshop will know what a turd PH airport and it's delays are.
I'm not saying its the ATCs fault ( although as in any outfit there is clearly some incompetence there ) but the sort of delays that are being dished out at this so called " busy " airport are ridiculous.
From the time you enter PH airspace til the time you try to get a taxi home is a complete clusterfcuk and the place is well deserved to be in the 10 worst airports in the world.
As far as notam holding being a forecast , WTF ? Another WA first ? So you suggest maybe just filling the A/C and if that's not enough divert ? What a great attitude and typical of Wait Awhile.

[airdualbleedfault]

HKF ( for a change ) is on the money. Friend of mine that does FIFO told me he is getting delayed just as much with these COBTs as ever and that he has proof that not everybody is getting stuffed around equally.
Perth airport is NOT busy in the scheme of things although the archaic procedures and ridiculous seperation do make it seem so. If Beijing, for example, applied the wonderful Perth system your delay could be tracked on a calendar.
Maybe somebody needs to go to the mining companies and let them know how much these delays are costing them, see how someone like Andrew Forrest reacts to being told PH airport is costing him 10s of 1000s of dollars a month, I'm sure he'd be happy ?

[Capn Bloggs]

Good to see the loonies are back in force. :D

As far as notam holding being a forecast , WTF ?
Are you suggesting ATC just forget the traffic holding NOTAMs and let the crews deal with "guess what, hold for 40 mins NOW"? At least ATC is using it's noggin and pre-empting the approaching SNAFU by warning all that there may be some severe holding based on the previous demonstrated inability of some operators to stick to their slot times.

Friend of mine that does FIFO told me he is getting delayed just as much with these COBTs as ever
On the ground or in the air? Of course there are going to be delays. The idea is to make them ground delays, not airborne. The times of delays will probably be very close to the same as before.

he has proof that not everybody is getting stuffed around equally.
Obviously if you jump the queue and cop only 10 minutes air holding you're going to look better to the SLF than the other crowd who do the right thing, take a 20 minute ground delay and then cop a 10 airborne delay.

Maybe somebody needs to go to the mining companies and let them know how much these delays are costing them
My understanding is that they have been told, time and again, that their scheduling is creating the problem.

PH airport is costing him 10s of 1000s of dollars a month, I'm sure he'd be happy ?
I doubt it.

[1Charlie]

Seems a bit ignorant to say Perth isn't a busy airport doesn't it. So many here claim overseas airports are so much busier than Australian airports quoting annual movements as the evidence, eg the Brisbane Gatwick comparison 250k vs 200k a few pages back.

Is it not obvious that a certain airport will have a maximum capacity based on the number of runways, high speed exits, taxiway structure etc. If an airport only does 100 movements per day is that a busy airport? What if those 100 movements are scheduled between 4 and 5 pm and the airport has one runway and one taxiway? Sounds like this is the case with FIFO in PH.

You can have all the bells and whistles you want helping the controller, but he is still not going to be able to put anymore aircraft on the runway than he could with just a RADAR screen and a microphone. If you look at the runway occupancy during these peaks im pretty sure you'll find there's not alot of wasted asphalt.

How pilots can pass judgement on an ATCs perfomance is beyond me. He may think he knows whats going on when really he has no idea. If you think you can do a better job. Go get your license and fix the 'problem'.

[Icarus2001]

Departing Perth this morning for the East coast.

Wind 010/8, runway 03 only.

Why?

[kimberleyEx]

ICARUS 2001.

I queried that exact point with ATC last week, as well as others.

Reply was safety concern due Tarmac works adjacent to bays 19 -21.

I'm still scratching my head as to where those works preclude the use of RWY 03 & 06 for departures:ugh:

K-Ex.

[No Idea Either]

Unless QF has built in a fudge factor for COBT, Andrew Forrest couldn't give a rats arse. He wants his workers delivered to the mines. Its the airlines and their contract price that have to sort the rest out. If the delays due holding cost money then its costings Qantas, unless they've fudged it. I would have.........

[Capn Bloggs]

I queried that exact point with ATC last week, as well as others.

Reply was safety concern due Tarmac works adjacent to bays 19 -21.

I'm still scratching my head as to where those works preclude the use of RWY 03 & 06 for departures
Have a think about how aircraft get from QF/Skippers/Network/Cobham to the threshold of 06. It looks like it could be done but, would it be worth the hassle/increased complexity?

[Transition Layer]

So, to the ATC guys/gals out there, who are the non-comformers?

[Roger Standby]

TL, I don't think any of the crew have noticed a pattern who the non conformers are. The Flow controller may be aware having to document the events but as a general rule, the guys who are sorting them out couldn't care less. We just have to deal with it. By the time it all happens we're usually a bit to busy to take notes :)

[Capn Bloggs]

The West 14 May:

Passengers at airport set to soar

Geoffrey Thomas Aviation Editor, The West Australian

Perth Airport's annual passenger growth could quadruple to 40 million in the next 17 years - more than double the estimate by the airfield's owners - according to a State Government paper.

The WA State Aviation Strategy Issues Paper, which has just been released for comment, warns that "even that figure, which represents a growth of 7.7 per cent a year, is conservative given over the past five years passenger numbers have soared by 9.2 per cent a year".

Plane movements are also breaking records, increasing by 260 per cent since 1992 to 141,000 a year.

The report warns of the importance of investment in the airport's infrastructure to meet demand but Perth Airport Pty Ltd chief executive Brad Geatches yesterday dismissed the figures.

"The past is not a good indicator of the future and there are very good structural reasons why we expect the annual growth rate to slow materially," he said.

Perth Airport argues that much of the demand has been driven by fly-in, fly-out workers for the construction phase of big projects and demand will peak about 2015.

"The net effect is that FIFO passenger numbers are expected to flatten and, potentially, decrease for a period after construction activity peaks," Mr Geatches said.

He also believed that outbound international growth rates for WA would "slow materially over the next few years".

Construction of a new regional terminal is under way and work on extensions to the international terminal is set to start shortly. But the paper says these will not be adequate for the growth forecasts.

However, one airline executive believes that "past growth patterns are a better indicator of future trends".

"When you put the oil and gas coupled with mining sector projects together, you would have to say that the growth prognosis for the next 20 years will remain very positive," the executive said.

"Perth will eventually be bypassed by direct connections from the Pilbara to the Eastern States as the Perth experience is simply too hard."

[Icarus2001]

"The net effect is that FIFO passenger numbers are expected to flatten and, potentially, decrease for a period after construction activity peaks," Mr Geatches said.

Please note he is not saying GROWTH will flatten, he is saying passenger NUMBERS will flatten and potentially DECREASE.

Well, potentailly the sun may not rise tomorrow morning, so I guess technically he is correct. He is also trying to hose down talk of having to actually provide some improved infrastructure such as more space and a new runway.

Keep it up Brad. Unfortunately for you there are some very big movers and shakers sick and tired of you company's stranglehold on Perth air traffic. So they are doing something about it, you know, like talking to the owners of the airport, not the leaseholders.

[myshoutcaptain]

Tuesday 22/5 ... midmorning wind vrb 3kts , perfect viz , no cloud in the state ... 6 waiting at 21 for departure , flow of arrivals onto 21 ... rwy 24 ... sitting idol... 15 minute delay ... :confused:

[Nautilus Blue]

I think I've seen R24 used for about 20 minutes in the last two weeks. If it is unavailable due works it should be NOTAMed.

[topend3]

I think I've seen R24 used for about 20 minutes in the last two weeks. If it is unavailable due works it should be NOTAMed.



It's not "NOT AVBL DUE WORKS" it's "NOT AVBL DUE NOISE" isn't it....plus LAHSO what is that again?

[Capn Bloggs]

it's "NOT AVBL DUE NOISE" isn't it....
And so it should be. No jet noise over my back yard thanks! :=

[TheOxe]

Taxiway works stop the tower from nominating R24, means arrival rate of 24 an hour not 26 using R21/R24.

Flows know when an aircraft is not compliant as soon as an aircraft departs, they can choose to de-prioritise the flight (or not) depending on the sequence and give additional delay up to the MOTAMed holding.

[Nautilus Blue]

Sorry, I was thinking of 24 arrivals :O

[aveng]

Please excuse my ignorance - the other morning I was watching the aircraft lined up on taxiway bravo for a 21 departure, and I couldn't help notice that the next aircraft to take to the runway seemed to take forever to lineup. I looked into the distance and couldn't spot any arriving a/c. Why isn't the next cab on the rank moving to lineup as soon as the one cleared for takeoff is rolling? It must be procedural and I understand the wake turbulance but these where all 737's.:confused:

[TheOxe]

Maybe the pilot was slow to get moving, or the tower did not have departure instructions for the aircraft because the Dep controller was too busy with all the other Perth Departures and IFR departures out of Jandakot.

[Roger Standby]

Rumour has it aircraft were held up, inbound, at one point last night. Had nothing to do with slots or sequencing apparently???

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Not a rumour. They broadcast on center frequency that it was due to staff shortages. Departures and arrivals delayed.

I wonder how many people have to leave or go sick to cause a shut down of big chunks of airspace. :rolleyes:

[Roger Standby]

No TIBA, no TRA, no NOTAMS. We call this the Short break procedure. We use this process in times where a controller must take a break and there is no one qualified to work the airspace. Simply refusing access to airspace for 30 minutes appears to be another new way of handling it.

Easy enough to keep IFR out of CTA but what about VFR in E looking for a service. IFR pickup, anyone?

I heard that the expression "due staff shortages" or similar were NOT supposed to be used but when we get asked "why are we being delayed?", then "operational requirement" doesn't seem to cut it. "Not telling!" doesn't seem to go down well either.

[ferris]

The minister doesn't find out about "delays". The minister only finds out about airspace closure. Hence, no closures- only 'delays'.

That way the managers can stand in front of a senate estimates committee and say "we do not have a staff shortage- we have adequate staffing".

Perhaps you could print out the relevant transcripts to read to help pass the time next time you are holding...due to staff shortage (cough cough)...I mean 'operational requirement'?

[Nautilus Blue]

Thursday was nearly as bad. Arrival rate limited to 18/hour so sectors could stay combined (3 staff instead of six).

The "Operational Requirement" euphemism won't work much longer, if it still does. Eventually everybody will know it means "Staff shortage and we're trying to cover it up".

The minister may not find out directly, but apparently the Airlines are asking pointed questions of ASA, and if they don't get answers that they like, will I'm sure be on to him.

[gordonfvckingramsay]

Nautilus, it is a wonder they have not started applying pressure to ASA and the minister already. The airlines (passengers), through extended traffic delays and lack of services, have been footing the bill for a few years now.

How odd that a Government that is so keen on taxing carbon is also holding the purse strings for an entity that can leave us up there churning through tonnes of fuel for almost an hour! We could abolish ASA all together and the whole country can live on the carbon tax alone. :}

[Capn Bloggs]

Airport snarl-up a 'nightmare'
Geoffrey Thomas Aviation Editor, The West Australian

Updated July 11, 2012, 2:20 am

A new system to allocate landing and take-off slots at Perth's overcrowded airport is not working properly, delaying flights and putting pilots under stress.

In a letter leaked to The West Australian, the Regional Aviation Association of Australia has told its WA members that air traffic control provider Airservices Australia has admitted the system is failing and that too many pilots are forced to declare "fuel emergencies".

Airservices recently introduced the Metron system to try to better manage the limited runway capacity at Perth Airport.

The system gives priority to incoming flights originating more than 800 nautical miles from Perth, meaning a flight from Broome or Adelaide will get clearance to land ahead of a flight from Karratha or Albany. Most of the critical fly-in, fly-out flights come from sites within the 800-nautical-mile radius.

This is creating a bottleneck with many flights being put into holding patterns for up to 40 minutes and forced either to divert or declare a fuel emergency - indicating the plane will run out of fuel before it reaches its intended destination if it continues to stay in a holding pattern - to be given priority to land.

The Metron system was introduced to ration the limited slots at Perth Airport and to try to stop long and wasteful queuing for take-off or holding for landing.

According to the RAAA, the acting chief executive of Airservices, Andrew Clark, has admitted the system is not working.

Airservices told the association they were forced into Metron because of the congestion at Perth.

In an official response, an Airservices spokeswoman said it was "well aware of a number of concerns that some regional airlines have expressed with the deployment of Metron in Perth".

"We have been working with individual operators and industry bodies (including the RAAA) in recent weeks to ensure that the benefits of the software are realised," she said.

"Based on airline feedback, Airservices is also reviewing procedures which determine which aircraft use the Metron Traffic Flow tool to better improve the overall air traffic flow into Perth."

RAAA says that as a result of the chaos, on-time performance for many airlines has slumped from 90 per cent to 50 per cent.

Some operators have told The West Australian pilots are also being put under pressure to meet slot times, adding to stress. Missing a take-off slot can mean a delay of up to two hours.

One airline said the system "was a nightmare".

[ramble on]

1. Do any of our ATC get to a chance to do US exchange work? Watching ATC at a busy US hub is where we could learn some lessons about getting people on and off runways (single, multiple and crossing) quickly.

2. Also, a system of RNAV arrivals that seems to work well particularly in EU is the system that resembles the security queue - having an s pattern arrival flow with strict speed control on each leg and constant descent paths. It doesn't use much more fuel, and gets maximum landing rates close in where short range spacing control is easier.

When traffic is light or if spacing needs to be decreased corners can be cut to get minimum spacing/maximum landing rates (like raising the tape in the outside barriers of the security queue).

If spacing needs to be increased extending any of the legs is also easy.

Being back at min speed for an hour and a half from the FIR boundary to meet an arrival crossing time and then being narked at for being 2 minutes out because of a massive descent wind gradient change is not satisfying for anyone.

Why not have a rough crossing time filter or a medium level hold a bit further out and then into the arrival queue.

6.........5..........4..........3............2...........1

7

8.........9..........10.........11.........12.........13



:::::::::::::::::::............17.........16.........15

[armchair quarterback]

HD's hand puppet at work again.

However, is there any chance 24 could be used for arrivals and 21 for departures (with obvious exceptions). Surely that ease the congestion at peak.

[Transition Layer]

The system gives priority to incoming flights originating more than 800 nautical miles from Perth, meaning a flight from Broome or Adelaide will get clearance to land ahead of a flight from Karratha or Albany. Most of the critical fly-in, fly-out flights come from sites within the 800-nautical-mile radius.

Bull****...pure and utter bull****. No priority whatsoever. Plenty of aircraft from Brisbane/Adelaide/Sydney/Melbourne etc doing laps at HAMTN every night.

It just means that aircraft outside the 800nm range aren't given a ground delay, which makes sense given things can change during the 2hrs plus it will take them to get to Perth.

Go crawl back into your hole Mr. Thomas and do some proper research.

[Nautilus Blue]

However, is there any chance 24 could be used for arrivals and 21 for departures (with obvious exceptions). Surely that ease the congestion at peak.

Until a few months ago we used 21 for departures and 21 and 24 for arrivals, and yes gives a higher movement rate. However 24 is not used for arrivals anymore, but its unavailability is not NOTAM'ed for some reason.

Being back at min speed for an hour and a half from the FIR boundary to meet an arrival crossing time and then being narked at for being 2 minutes out because of a massive descent wind gradient change is not satisfying for anyone.

ATC vectoring and speed control can be much more accurate than crews adjusting to make a fix time, but it will happen inside 160nm. The airlines pushed for feeder fix times and early notice, and boasted they could hit times to within seconds.

You will get narked at when we can see from 100+ nm out you won't make your time but can't convince you to change.

Of course if METRON works and the airlines comply, then nobody gets any delay and it becomes academic :)

[DraggieDriver]

Hey, Nautilus Blue,

Any chance of getting something like an "Expect J5A arrival RWY 21" with the JULIM time/speed requirement? It's just that if we sit there aiming to make that time and speed and then get given a different STAR/RWY combo our timings can be up to 2 minutes out. Or are we not meant to try to anticipate the STAR and just accept being a minute or so out once you finally do give us a STAR?

[Nautilus Blue]

DD Basically we want you to be exactly on time no matter how hard we make it for you :O.

I understand that the problem for arrivals via JULIM is the large difference in track miles between 21A and 03A, and the subsequent alt at JULIM. We could give a RWY expectation, but there are a few issues.

- ideally you will get a JULIM time as far out as possible, so often the controller issuing the JULIM time won't know (or care) what the duty RWY is. Admittedly thats our problem not yours, and something we could fix.

- the main problem though it would be only and expectation, not a promise. PH are unable to forecast RWY changes, so the further out you get an expectation, the more likely it is to be wrong. Thinking about it, I suppose if the RWY changes we'll need an amended JULIM time anyway, and in the highly probable event you can't make the new time that again is our problem not yours.

It is probably worthwhile, but I suggest you would have more luck going through you company, ASA pays a lot more attention to the airlines than it does to its workers.

Out of interest, how far out do you check the CATIS? As a guide, on 21 you will always get the JULIM5A21, 03 will be JULIM5A03, unless its not dark, not instrument approaches and your operator is not johnny foreigner (not including kiwis) in which case the WOORA2 (unless we give you the JULIM5A03 anyway for sequencing).

[CaptCloudbuster]

How about checking the TTF or TAF.... always provides a reliable indicator of RNW expectancy for me.

[White and Fluffy]

What a proactive management point of view.

Airlines 'must want' fog upgrade - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/news/14207029/airlines-must-want-fog-upgrade/)

[Hoofharted]

Quite frankly I'm heartily sick and tired of listening to the bull**** that emanates from ASA and that complete twit that runs Perth airport. The system is stuffed pure and simple and no amount of bull**** will fix it. It requires a complete rebuild from scratch. If GT's article draws attention to the fact, well good on him.

I no longer have any trust what so ever in ATC and nor the bloody METRON system. After all, why bother complying with a COBT when compliance results in holding (quite often longer than promulgated by NOTAM) anyway? I wonder if the two aforementioned culprits would continue down the same path if they had to pay the carbon tax caused by excessive fuel burn due to their incompetence?

I'll just continue to carry more fuel than required, tell my pax via the PA that we have again been "screwed" by ATC and leave it at that.

Nero fiddled while Rome burnt - same same.

[Capn Bloggs]

I'll just continue to carry more fuel than required, tell my pax via the PA that we have again been "screwed" by ATC and leave it at that.
It's @#$%^s like you, butting in, that stuff it up for the rest of us. Thanks for that. :cool:

As has been said many times, ATC is not the creator of this shambles and in my experience, they do pretty well, considering.

[Nautilus Blue]

Why do people have so much trouble understanding PH?
It is a monopoly.
It is privately owned.
The boss is required to deliver maximum returns to the owners/shareholders.
Extra infrastructure airside would cost, and produce no increase in returns.
The boss can do sums.
No new airside infrastructure will be built.


Come on, surely 21 and 24 can be used for arrivals and departures

While I share your frustration, the are two possibilities. One, there is a reason that you don't know, because nobody told you and you haven't asked. Two, there is no reason and either WAC or ATC are deliberately screwing with you for fun. Take your pick.

tell my pax via the PA that we have again been "screwed" by ATC

Thats OK, these will be the same pax that blame your piloting for turbulence.

[Hoofharted]

It's @#$%^s like you, butting in, that stuff it up for the rest of us. Thanks for that"Bloggs", blah blah blah blah - when you dare to leave the coast of Western Australia and venture further afield than good old Perth and see how it can and should be - lets talk.

Otherwise blah blah blah blah - same old crap still in 20 years time.

[Awol57]

Perhaps you should go in and show ATC how to do it Hoof?

[Plazbot]

To disclose from the get go, I am ATC but not in OZ let alone Perth but Bloggs is one of the more rounded posters with facts and tact than the vast majority here. Attacking him is like punching your own kid for being cute.

[airdualbleedfault]

I've heard a lot of adjectives used to describe Bloggs but cute and rounded are not 2 of them.
You have 2 runways, most of the time you only use 1, and 1 of the runways, 24, is virtually never used for departures, now why is that ? Why the hell do they bother publishing STARs for 24 ?? It is common knowledge that for years ATC has been asking for more staff and the oxygen thieves at ASA have refused, meanwhile the operators ( The customer ) suffer. I am told that ATC have even advised operators of a go slow ( 16 movements an hour, how do u sleep ? ) due to controllers calling in sick.
Anybody who has flown outside of this sheltered workshop knows that with the benine weather, no terrain and no complicated airspace, a hell of a lot more can be done with 2 runways.

[Plazbot]

Awesome accusations chief. Care to back any of them up? 16 movements am hour is about an 18 mile trail at 35 miles at matched speeds. Whilst not what we roll in a full controlled/**** off G category/fat for pop ups, that is what you get when the GA community have/had a voice on the Houses that make legislation.

ATC in OZ whilst staffed by the softest union run by dudes padding their final average salary, just want you the tuck out of their airspace ASAP.

I personally want all the five minute experiencd guys especially who operate into one local hub to have a bit of a look around and learn what actual traffic flow requires.

Salami Bacon to you all

[airdualbleedfault]

Am I the chief ? If so, a friend of mine at Network recently advised me he would b late for dinner because he had been told by his ops that ATC had called them and told them that in VMC the movements per hour were being reduced to 16 due sickness, I guess it's his word against yours, what's your evidence ?
Hong Kong airport has 2 runways, very complicated airspace ( 3 other mainland china airports in close proximity ) , terrain issues and lousy viz and weather, they handle up to 50 movements an hour. Yes they are parallel runways but if you know anything about that you would know its still not a case of simply firing off departures whilst a/c arriving, especially not when you consider the missed approach is straight into the path of departing a/c
Kind regards, The Chief

[Nautilus Blue]

I am told that ATC have even advised operators of a go slow ( 16 movements an hour, how do u sleep ? ) due to controllers calling in sick.


Technically true, but full of weasel words.

It was ML centre that has the problem, not PH.

Controllers called in sick because they were unfit for duty. The lack of any safety margin in staffing (tactical or strategic) meant nobody was available to replace them.

Go slow implies staff deliberately under performing. The reduced arrival rate was dictated by management. Rather than close airspace, positions were kept combined. During this period, 3 controllers were doing the job that requires a minimum of 4, sometimes 5. That doesn't include provision for toilet breaks etc.

During the period of 16/hour arrivals, one controller was separating/sequencing etc every arriving AND departing a/c from 30 miles out to 90 to the west and 160 mlles north.

What was supposed to happen was that METRON would schedule 16 arrivals an hour, but PH would accept at normal arrival rate, around 26-28. This meant that even with the que jumpers we would't have to hold, and the workload would be possible. Thats not quite what happened but thats another story.

PS re terrain. PH does have some interesting terrain. The is a 15000' high cliff wall 10 miles to the north!

[Dash Balus]

PS re terrain. PH does have some interesting terrain. The is a 15000' high cliff wall 10 miles to the north!

Maybe a 15,000' cliff some 2500 miles to the North East, but 10 miles north?

A zero too many perhaps? :O

[Toruk Macto]

Nothing wrong with adding some personnel safety margins !

[SandyPalms]

I'm not sure I'd call it terrain, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about Pearce' airspace.

[Dash Balus]

SandyPalms,

thanks, now I am with the program!:O

[flightfocus]

Nautilus Blue has it straight.

All this pilot vs ATC angst is exactly what the self serving execs want!

ATC DON'T delay for fun. Most, if not all sectors and towers AROUND THE COUNTRY are working with bare minimum staff - if they are lucky! Most are under what is required.

The suits at ASA re-jigged how they measure the staff about 18 mths ago. They now sprout terms like Core and Mature. WTF??? Core is the bare basics needed to keep the lights on. Nobody has mature, which apparently has allowances for Checking, training, team days, simulator training etc. You know all the good stuff to improve your skills - we don't get that. Just a 45min Computer Based Training module (the same one you did last year) to do in you 30 min break (if your lucky enough not to be on the 20min Short Break Procedure - go an look up that scary thing and tremble!!!)

If you bothered to read the senate estimates hearing you will know that we can supply the industry with an army of admin people in bull**** castle - and in fact we are still hiring them. Still not enough!!! :ugh:

The lack of transparency about what is really happening has been carefully orchestrated over the last 4 years. Don't you pilot types ever wonder why you don't see the staff shortage NOTAM anymore? Ever bothered to find out what "Operational Requirements" is code for. Its been repeated on these forum pages often enough - STAFF SHORTAGES!!!

We have plenty of staff, just not plenty of ATC's.

Big Tony got into Two First Names ear a few years back and whispered that he did not want to look bad with Airlines asking about TIBA. TFN fixed it. Not by hiring more controllers, but by changing the way the shortages are reported and presented (didn't you ever watch Yes Minister? These guys studied that series religiously!) You fly boys whinging about the system have bought the hype. Don't believe the hype!

Perth is a basket case - pure and simple. An old, airport that has been milked by private owners who have been negligent on upgrading infrastructure. The self loading freight are happy with shiny terminals, repaints and new taxi stands while paying $6 for 250ml of water. Looks like PAPL are doing something, then they can blame the rest on industry!

If you believe that the delays are caused by ATC, then get out of your shiny pressurised cans and arrange a visit. You are most welcome. The contact numbers are promulgated through ERSA. Come sit with ATC for an hour of two in the morning burst.

Here's a clue - NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING Perth Airport are doing with the construction on the aerodrome right now, or recently, has anything to do with improving efficiency. It's about PARKING AIRFRAMES. Where are the Rapid Exit Taxiways - built 2 new taxiways, still old school 90 degree turns. Where is the full length parallel taxiway at least for 03/21? You get in a bind on 03, its back to one in and one out! World class :{

Now as it looks like most of you on here haven't noticed the carnage that has been going on around bays 19 - 24 in conjunction with the International Apron works that is why 06/24 has not been used. To be blunt it so that ATC don't put two together on the tarmac as they try and make a silk purse out a pigs ear.

ATC has lobbyed Perth Airport to issue the NOTAM as it is a risk mitigation for THEIR works, they refused. Now they can blame ATC. Its attitudes like this in the respective management hierarchies that you really should be focusing your anger against.

You got to look at the big picture, we don't want to keep you on frequency any longer than we have to - there are too many of your mates behind. Now keep peddling!

This *#@# is getting boring...... :mad:

[Boomerang]

flightfocus, dont get too carried away. "Here's a clue - NOTHING, I repeat NOTHING Perth Airport are doing with the construction on the aerodrome right now, or recently, has anything to do with improving efficiency."

I know there are steps being taken to improve the frustrating situation at Perth. For example the construction of C6 will help to reduce runway occupancy times and improve efficiency. Or do you believe it will be used for parking?

There are people within the airlines, ASA, and Perth airport working very hard to improve the operation at Perth. Ask your respective what they know about the ACE programme if you are not aware of it already. Unfortunately it is slow, and a number of the options people carry on about here have been explored and are not practical or feasible just yet.

Take a chill pill and do what you can to be safe without giving yourself a coronary. :ok:

[Toruk Macto]

Mean while China build an airport the size of Perth every 3 weeks !

[Capn Bloggs]

Ask your respective what they know about the ACE programme if you are not aware of it already. Unfortunately it is slow, and a number of the options people carry on about here have been explored and are not practical or feasible just yet.
ACE is merely tinkering with the edges. Until either the operators drastically change their schedules or Perth Airport spends some money, not a lot will change.

Practical or feasible merely means some beancounter has decided that the money need not be spent just yet. A bit like improving roads; the problem being that, instead of stopping/crawling and wasting time but not much extra fuel as you would in a car on a under-capacity road, aeroplanes drill holes in the sky at cruise fuel flow. But that's not on the airport's balance sheet.

[Nautilus Blue]

I'm not sure I'd call it terrain, but I'm pretty sure he's talking about Pearce' airspace.

I wanted to say 15000' of granite would be easier to deal with than PEA ATC, but the truth is they are as cooperative as that can be. Its still a big chunk of airspace to work around though.

In breaking news, 24 ARRIVALS ARE BACK !!!!!

Ps Boomerang, the airlines flout METRON times, ASA cannot provide enough staff to keep the sectors open and PH airport have built one high speed turnoff to cope with a doubling of movements. I'm guessing you work in an office? If steps are being taken and the coalface don't notice, they I would politely suggest the steps aren't working.

[ferris]

ASA cannot provide enough staff to keep the sectors openI would correct that to "ASA choose not to provide enough staff to keep sectors open..."
Yet another example of false saving. AsA thinks they are being clever by not adequately staffing (their costs are reduced)- and who could argue that delays wouldn't be reduced by adding staff?- but the airlines pay in extra delays. No-one ever seems to reconcile the two- because airlines cop delays and costs that have been shifted from AsA. Utterly ridiculous, and inefficient.

[Capn Bloggs]

Flights get slot system
Geoffrey Thomas, The West Australian
Updated December 6, 2012, 3:07 am
Perth Airport will introduce a system in February to try to bring order to the chaotic line-up of planes waiting for take-off on weekday mornings.

The airport says it has reached consensus with airlines and only 4 per cent of domestic flights will require a time adjustment, with an average change for affected flights of about 15 minutes.

The Schedule Co-ordination System will more closely balance demand and capacity throughout the day, by co-ordinating the departure and arrival flight times of airlines operating at Perth Airport.

There should be fewer delays and uncertainty for airlines and their customers.

Chamber of Minerals and Energy chief executive Reg Howard-Smith said he supported measures taken by Perth Airport and Airservices Australia to improve aviation services in the State.

"The provision of punctual, reliable, safe and efficient aviation services is imperative to the continued sustainability and growth of the Western Australian resources sector and the safety of those working in it," he said.

However, though the slot system brings order, it does not solve the problems of lack of capacity during weekday early morning peaks.

"A collaborative approach from all stakeholders is needed to develop a system well tuned to West Australian circumstances," Mr Howard-Smith said.

[Roger Standby]

Good luck with that

[Roger Standby]

On a side note, simply because Perth aviators are following this thread, it has become more obvious recently that some pilots, particularly from one airline, are regularly asking for track shortening off the end of the runway and then on first contact of every subsequent frequency.

In case you haven't noticed, this is Perth. Rarely do you fly as flight planned and we go out of our way to track shorten you as often as we can, often more than we should according to the rules we should be following. Give us a chance to get our initial instructions out and then by all means ask politely if we haven't offered it.

Calling on frequency and advising/demanding/expecting "We can take dct xxx when it is available" just pi$$e$ us off. We'll let you know IF it's available. A bit of common courtesy never goes astray. We don't expect thanks. (but it doesn't go astray if you want us to try and trim your track even more ;))

I'm not saying don't ask. I'll bend over forwards to get it for you. I want you apart and out of my airspace as soon as possible :p but grumpy demands will see you flying full route unless it suits me otherwise. I'll be the one saying "not available" without even a callsign.

Cheers :ok:

[bazza stub]

Roger Standby said:

Calling on frequency and advising/demanding/expecting "We can take dct xxx when it is available" :D

Nice! I find it particularly funny when one of my flight deck buddies suggests we ask for track shortening when our flightplan already takes us in a dead straight line to destination.Think Mcfly! Less waypoints doesn't always mean less track miles. :ugh:

...and yes manners go a long way.

[RR69]

Would it help if instead of holding everyone east all the time, they split the load out to the west, may be more miles initially, but would rather come over the airport high and have a nice descent in over the coast then do donuts out east then get screwed around all the way in? Would it also help considering most the traffic departing goes east / north or south? Would noise be the issue as to why they don't do this, or jt, or both?

They other reason I like the approaches from the west is when the wx is crap it often moves west to east, following it in from the west is a lot nicer sometimes then trying to dodge through it from the east, I guess your further away from alternates though if things don't improve?

[Angle of Attack]

Roger Standby,

Totally agree, wait a little and if track shortening isnt forcoming then ask for it,
Just like when given a time to pass a waypoint and so and so comes back and says "best time we can do is ?? We will need some vectors." Well you may need vectors or you may need a new route or you may need to enter a hold! Just give them the best time you can do and let them do their job!, the less talk the better, thats common courtesy too

[CaptCloudbuster]

Any time less than 5 mins we need vectors... Too little for holding...

[Fred Gassit]

Not even one "wall of death" orbit?

[Nautilus Blue]

Another tracking request issue. If you are tracking A B C D E, and you have been issued with a height requirement by C, don't bother asking for track shortening to D or E until after you have made the requirement.

Really though I'm not that fussed. Someone asks for direct tracking, I say no or will advise (i.e. no). If thats the worst that happens on a shift I'll be happy. I've undoubtedly asked my share of daft questions, "do you expect a normal approach and landing" springs to mind. :O

RR69 - for those reasons and more it would help, but the problem is Pearce, specifically R160 and R161. I know its our standard excuse, but with the exception of the waves SID and STAR, airspace off the coast in not available when they are active. (Sterling and Lancelin restricted areas are also a issue but not as often.) Thought was given some time ago to having two route structures to the north, depending on weather PEA was active or not. The the thinking was problems of people planning the wrong routes at the wrong times outweighed the benefits.

We do do it on an ad-hoc basis though. Its quite common at night to run traffic inbound from the northwest GEL WAVES rather than MRW REVOP JULIM , particularly if using R03.

[dreamjob]

Seems a certain carrier reads pprune going off some of todays radio calls. :E

[FYSTI]

Would that be the "road runner" requesting direct to a 5 mile final on first contact with APP and track shortening/ high speed at every opportunity, the hapless Coyote is never quite quick enough to Nayle him...

[AerocatS2A]

SandyPalms, I think the point is that everyone wants track shortening so there's no point asking for it. You will get it regardless when it becomes available. I've never asked for track shortening in or out of Perth but have been given it on a regular basis, in fact I don't think I've ever flown a full SID.

[Nautilus Blue]

Actually, most of our route design and procedures are designed to move individual aircraft as easily as possible for a number of reasons.

The routes are designed for worst case i.e. routes are designed on the assumption there is always someone coming the other way. That means you always get the routes you were given, and usually unrestricted climb/descent whether there is traffic or not. If there is no opposite direction traffic, you get shortened.

The less work each aircraft requires, the more aircraft a controller/sector can deal with. You're paying our wages as well as your fuel bill and any controller has a finite work rate. If the workload is low, I can assess/procure shortening.

Systemic separation is safer then tactical. Rather than try to vector to separate each inbound and each outbound aircraft, SID's and STAR's are given that automatically provide separation. Its also more predictable for pilots.

Overall, though each aircraft may get suboptimal routing, traffic as a whole is optimised (as much as possible).

[Roger Standby]

Sandy Palms,

Did you even take in the context of what I said? By all means ask. I want to lower your costs and the carbon footprint. I also want you moved along as fast as possible. It's the expectation that some have and the attitude with which it is transmitted.

but being rude about it is just plain rude

absolutely agree.

For the record, our rules suggest that aircraft should fly as per planned unless for separation. Cost efficiencies are a very low priority for our rule makers. We do go out of our way to facilitate most requests.

[CaptCloudbuster]

For the record, our rules suggest that aircraft should fly as per planned unless for separation

We know that, why do you think we ask the question in the 1st place - politely, of course.