Money to Burn

[Dropp the Pilot]

Emirates is the only Gulf airline to have implemented major fuel surcharges.

Emirates is the only Gulf airline operating the A380.

Discuss...

[Plank Cap]

Dropp the Pilot,

Surely you can't be suggesting the "most economical plane in the sky", otherwise known as the A380 BonusEater, is responsible for EK's loss of profit this year?? If Emirates do have it wrong on the 380, then 90x380 is a lot of wrong........

[Schnowzer]

Last week fuel price at $140/barrel for jet fuel, increase to industry year on year $36b, 9.1% in a month in an industry with a margin around 5% in times of feast:

Jet Fuel Price Monitor (http://www.iata.org/whatwedo/economics/fuel_monitor/Pages/index.aspx)

At current fuel prices no carrier or aircraft in the world will make money without inceasing ticket prices. Competing on price rather than service will destroy the industry.

If prices aren't increased industry will go bust. Discuss!

[glofish]

Let's call it the 380 surcharge.

They didn't learn from the A346 debacle.

[donpizmeov]

To bloody right, the 380 burns 70t more between SYD and DXB and 60t more DXB and SYD. That's 130 x $1100 = $143000 more than the Boeing!!!!! That's ****e right?

Hmmm 6 extra 1st class seats at $AUD14133= $84798
34 extra J class at $AUD8373 = $284682
89 extra Y class at $AUD1858 = $165362
A total of $Aud 534842 more, less the extra fuel, so $391842 more for each full return flight SYD/DXB than that full Boeing. This is without the savings for extra villas, education, salaries, medical, larger hat size etc etc for the extra pilots/crew if we had to carry these pax in two Boeings instead of the one megabus. (Fuel price in $US but have used $AUD to keep it easy so above is worse case in case the $US strengthens before we all die).

No wonder they are going to pay megabus pilots more. It just makes sense doesn't it?

The Don :E

[yada.yada.yada]

Way to rub those "holier than thou" boeing pilots' nose in it Don!

Love it! :D

[falconeasydriver]

you Dunn good wiff numbas Don...crept you haven't included the 23 tonnes of high value freight or all the free upgrades...oops that's right, the 180 doesn't carry freight:E

[glofish]

i know, it was a little too sarcastic, but ....

Don, how many of those premium passengers are actually paying these prices? How many just cash in miles? How many just upgraded?
SQ was very open a month ago in a article admitting that the premium market is fading, they sold premium tickets below cost.

TC in his latest interview from SEA said: EK is pulling less fuel efficient aircraft back to shorter routes. Now how sibyllic is that? The 330s/340s are already on such routes and on LR/ULR the only change is that the T7 takes over some routes previously operated by the whale, ergo --> " .... less fuel efficient ..." means who??

I said it before: When the fuel price exceeds $120, the whale becomes too expensive.

That's what actually happens, is tacitly confirmed and eats into our profit.
The truth sometimes hurts, don't shoot the messenger.

[donpizmeov]

Glofish and Falcon,

Both very compelling well researched and backed up arguments. I must admit you both have made me rethink my position, and I concede that I was wrong.

It would seem that the Direct flight DXB/SYD/DXB is in fact a 772LR, I was basing the fore-mentioned numbers on the 773ER, so my figures were wrong. Its really 183 extra in Y class so thats 183 x 1858 = $340014 in stead of the $165362. So this would mean that the Megabus would make an extra $AUD566494 per SYD/DXB/SYD. Of interest one of the aircraft on this sector is averaging 59t of revenue and the other 37t of revenue.

No wonder the company insists they call it Super. :E

The Don

[FFFrentit]

Get a life guys!

[etops777]

Another classic example of mine is better than yours..

[donpizmeov]

Sorry didn't mean it seem like a sausage fest. Was just trying to show that a full 380 would make more money than a full 773 which makes more than a 772 etc. It also goes that a empty 380 will lose more than a 773 which would lose more than a 772. Judging by fuel flow alone is flawed. But each aircraft has a market.

I am a true believer of the Boeing and think it should do all the flying. There would appear to be many enthusiasts on that fleet that would appear to want the extra work too. A true win win. :ok:

Keep recovering.

The Don

[nolimitholdem]

Full versus empty isn't even the argument. Loads do not equal yield.

Just because there are more seats doesn't mean that a. you can fill them and b. a little more importantly, definitely doesn't mean you're making money on those seats. If that seems simplistic, it's only as much so as taking a full fare and multiplying it by X number of seats to suggest that much revenue as fact. Talk about a straw man: "But if you charge full fare for every seat and fill them all, why, it kills a 777!" Um, sure.

More seats are more potential revenue. But only a possibility, while the fuel cost is a certainty. If I was a gambler I know which I'd rather bet on.

Don't get me wrong. I enjoyed flying F on the ugly thing, it was comfy and it was always nice to say hi to all my colleagues along for the ride! lol Hopefully they'll see something other than a hangar again soon.

[White Knight]

According to Gulf News Business Section - the font of all knowledge - it would appear that a lowly 320 operator is adding fuel surcharges now. That would be Jazeera by the way! And it's not as if those 320s really use much juice:D

EK is pulling less fuel efficient aircraft back to shorter routes. Now how sibyllic is that? The 330s/340s are already on such routes

The 330 and 343 are actually quite efficient - just the cabin is rubbish and old compered to the newer Boings, sorry, Boeings; so tend to be used on shorter routes where pax are less likely to moan...

Indeed NLH, we pilots have no idea of the yields of the tickets sold, but the 380s run around chock-a-block!

[glofish]

WK

I didn't say the 330/343 were inefficient, especially the 330 is good. I always said 2 engines and 2 struts is the design to go, the rest is simply too heavy to be efficient.

As for the yield, I agree again, we're lost. A well loaded A380, where all pax pay their respective seat, must return a good yield. - Inshallah ....

Time will tell, everyone is entitled to his/her theory and forecast.
Mine is on that EK will not operate all 90 whales.
Profit will always prevail propaganda, even in the sandbox.

Place your bets.

[GoreTex]

how about EK sells all 380 and 345, then the 777 will be the biggest again, would that make you happy?

[cadidalhopper]

You don't fly the biggest airplane in the fleet. Does that make you any less of a pilot? No. Go home, hug your wife and kids, it isn't the end of the world.

The Boeing isn't better because it's American, those days are gone.

[White Knight]

Back to the thread folks.

Jazeera Airways also adding fuel surcharges! So not just EK now...

[glofish]

What's the matter with you guys??

This is a discussion about efficiency, yield, money, profit .... you know, in the end what will be in your pocket!

It's NOT about size, you have to go to other forums for that (try Hotspot Shield).

I personally could't care less which aircraft is bigger, but I very much do about which one might (read correct for once please: might) reduce what goes into my pocket.

So please continue this discussion with facts, the few we can get, or theories, the ones we can deduct, and place your bets. That will be interesting.

With all your other problems --> please stay away.

[Craggenmore]

As the old saying goes, BA shorthaul LGW was only started to pay for Concorde's fuel bill rather like the EK 777 night India fleet will exist to allow the 380 pilots a chilled European day trip; hence so many 777 orders to offset the costs (if any..!)

[KAC104]

Seems like Gulfnews is late yet again, Jazeera was charging fuel surcharges for years (literally!), its nothing new.

And the guys comparing the B777 to the A380 fuel burn. What happened to the "more weight = more fuel" theory. Not that significant, but an arguement none the less.

[777boyo]

Gentlemen,

As one who was previously directly involved in airline economics, permit me my 5 dirham worth..

As pilots we have almost zero ability to assess the costs/revenues or contribution to profitablity of any aircraft. OK, we can guess at Fuel Cost given the burn and price. We can even guess at revenues, but really have no idea what yield is achieved on any given route. There is a monster department in EK dealing with Yield Management,both passenger and cargo,very effectively. Back on the cost side, what about Maintenance Costs - by flight cycle, block hour, periodic? And how about Overflight and Nav Services charges, which are usually based on MTOW. And Landing/Handling charges, also usually based on MTOW. Security Charges? Overheads - salaries and benefits, Commercial, Advertising and Promotion, Office Rentals etc and how each is apportioned to a type or route group?

At the end of the day, all that matters to us is whether we are happy on the aircraft we're on, and whether the salary is paid on time every month. Leave the finance to the office boys - they have the big picture, we don't. And they're welcome to it - I know which job I'd rather be doing!:ok:

Now, about that Bonus.......