How common are 18-hour duty days @ AeroLogic?

[Iver]

Deleted... Question answered. Cheers

[Iver]

Echo Echo Echo :confused::confused::confused:

[hongkongchap777]

They also do HKG-DEL-LEJ and SIN-BLR-LEJ, FRA-ALA-HKG, etc. all 18hr days with 3 crew members... :ugh:

[sabenaboy]

Check out this picture taken by a Lufthansa Cargo pilot probably hitching a ride on an AeroLogic 777 - picture taken at Chicago O'Hare:

Photos: Boeing 777-FZN Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/AeroLogic/Boeing-777-FZN/2073950/L/&sid=6c9cacb310531130d5542c3ced50c8f6)

The caption reads that the 3-man crew had an 18 hour duty day and had flown to ORD from Frankfurt and were continuing on to LAX. That's a long day - especially with potential delays and congestion at O'Hare. Nice airplane, but that type of flying sounds exhausting... Thank god for the 777 automation (and probably auto-land used).

How typical is this type of schedule at AeroLogic? Are 18-hour duty days (obviously with 3 crew) pretty common or not so common? Any other examples of current routes with that type of duty day?

Mmmh? Normally with a 3 men crew they would be able to do 15 hrs ( + 3 hrs (at captains discretion) in case of delay due to unforeseen circumstances during the actual flight operation, which starts at the reporting time.) If the flight FRA-ORD-LAX takes more then 15 hrs scheduled duty time, it would not be legally possible, I believe. (With a 4 men crew, they could do 17 hrs + possibly 3 more in case of unforeseen delay)

[Bus Driver Man]

Are you sure? Isn't allowed under EuOps SubptQ to operate 18 hours duty with a crew of 3?

Fortunately it isn't.

13h Max flight duty.
+2h for augmented crew (3FCM)

[hongkongchap777]

allegedly the german authorities have approved 18hrs for them!

[hongkongchap777]

I was amazed to hear this as well, I am sure the german authority has the answers...

[Denti]

It is actually a general rule (law) in germany. Three pilots are enough up to 18 hours of flight duty, however none of those pilots is allowed more than 12 hours at the controls. It is regulated in §14 of the 1. DVO LuftBO (Erste Durchführungsverordnung zur Betriebsordnung für Luftfahrtgerät) and to my knowledge only available in german.

EU-OPS does not regulate max flight duty times for augmented crews and expressively delegates that to the national authorities as has been posted above. Remember, maximun plannable flight duty time for up to two landings and only two pilots in EU-OPS is 14 hours (twice in every 7 day period). Taking into account captains discretion up to 15 hours with two pilots is absolutely legal. And some companies plan discretion duties...

[despegue]

I can't believe that any professional pilot would accept this madness.:mad:
Get some balls Aerologic and refuse these duties.

[hetfield]

Get some balls Aerologic and refuse these duties.


The LUFTHANSA-BUNDESAMT (;)) made it possible.

For all German Operators.....

[GlueBall]

..."And some companies plan discretion duties..."

Cannot legally be done on paper.

Also: Beware of impromptu SAFA ramp inspections.

Pilots who accept pre-planned exceedance of flight duty periods are desperate people. :{

[Nearly Man]

Funny how the EU letting all this go on while train drivers have very strict time limitations.

[Denti]

Glueball, of course it is not legal. However, it is perfectly legal to plan a 13:59 flight duty time, and if you then run in that oh so unforecasted headwind it is discretion time, or that absolutely perfectly planned 30 minute turnaround on a canary island with 190 pax in and outbound didn't quite go as planned, you name it. All perfectly legal, all pressuring the crew into discretion.

[despegue]

simple solution to this... Land the aircraft as you refuse to go into discretion, let the company get hotel for crew (and pax), new crew, etc etc. Make a point. Show who is in charge.

In case of an incident, it is YOUR licence which will be under scutiny, the Germans can write whatever they want, they are EASA and this means that the general flight duty rules must be complied with. SAFA inspectors will not accept whatever nonsence "exemption" the Germans tolerate.

[hetfield]

SAFA inspectors will not accept whatever nonsence "exemption" the Germans tolerate.

Well, it depends....

FDT regulations are subject of Annex 6, and rests with the STATE OF THE OPERATOR.

[Denti]

Actually, it is legal in EU-OPS rules as well. EU-OPS has some very large undefined areas which are to be defined "by the authority" which is the local authority in each country. That had been done to accomodate different local regulations those local regulators wanted to keep for whatever reason, as posted above by jstflyin EU-OPS has such a loophole for local regulations in regards to augmented crews. Working 18 hours with a three pilot augmented crew is absolutely legal under EU-OPS terms and therefore is of no concern during a SAFA check. Same as working a normal 18 hours split duty day or a normal 14 hour day without any rest requirement during that duty.

Is it safe? Of course not. Which is the main reason why we lobby against the up and coming new implemention of EU-OPS which will be worse in quite some parts of the regulation and which will, unlike EU-OPS at the moment, supercede any local regulation and therefore sadly CAP 371.

And yes, landing somewhere enroute to keep within the duty time is something which has brought rostering changes (together with much more restricting CLAs) in some companies. Others like for example aerologic do not have any CLAs and therefore are free to roster as the company wishes within the constraints of EU-OPS and relevant local regulations.