300 to 1500 hours? How are you going to do it?

[FlyingSportsman]

So, entry level jobs at 300 hours? Not anymore is FAA land in AUG 2013.

How are people going to fill this 1200 hour gap?

[mcgoo]

Instructing, as it should be!

[Jerry Lee]

This in FAA land? It' easy! They have a lot of general navigation options!
Flight Instructor is the first option usually.

[Jerry Lee]

mcgoo, don't say as it should be.

I'm thinking of becoming a full-time flight instructor in Europe, but what can I give to my future students (if I will ever have one) besides trying to share my passion of flying????

[pudoc]

Flying lessons, hopefully.

[Jerry Lee]

You didn't get the point...

[FlyingSportsman]

the problem i have with that is the quality of training, in my opinion, will inevitably fall.

when we are learning we want someone with a passion to teach us- and i feel that 'forcing' people to become instructors for the necessary hours to become airline pilots will have a bad effect on training standards- precisely the thing they are trying to improve.

Just my 2 cents

[HelipadR22]

With the EASA posting in the FAQs that PPL(A) pilots will be able to get an FI ticket and charge for flight training the instuctor route for hour building may get a bit thin on the ground.

http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/620/g-FAQ%20FEB12_280212.pdf

Section 11

[MIKECR]

I dont think there will be any great rush of PPL FI's coming forward. The requirements for new FI's will still be to complete the CPL theory groundschool syllabus and exams, and also the full FI course(currently 125 hours groundschool and 30 hours flying training and skills test). The sheer cost alone will put the majority off. Its also a huge time commitment. Yeah sure...some will do it, but I dont think the annual CAA stats will show a great uptake in the next few years.

[Parson]

FS,

Instructing up to 700hrs was generally the only way, pre-JAR for those funding their own training and the industry seemed to manage OK.

[wingreencard]

enough pilots looking so the 1500h will put suckers away.
really we don't need children who want play the airline pilot after 1 year training and without maturity.

[kaptn]

what about civil patrol volunteering?

[Aviatorjoe]

wingreencard

How did you start your career? How did you get mature and skilled before joining an airline ?

[bluesideoops]

Get yourself down to Africa, great climate, interesting experience, chance to build PIC/NIGHT/IR time and also get to stay in some of the most amazing game parks in the world where you can see 'zoo' animals in their natural environment. Safety isn't as sh*t as people think and go to the right places (Botswana/Zambia/Namibia/Tanzania etc) you'll find the people friendly and the environment safe. Much better than sitting in the right seat with a 2-300hrs of flight school experience, teaching someone who knows marginally less than yourself.

[wingreencard]

nothing better than teaching, it gives your great advantages than just wishing to seat in a big plane with the autopilot on. did both ...

you log twin, single, flight instructor,...and it gives you more chance to get a job on this market and you get respect from students, boss, and the FAA or JAA.The job is lot of fun and i love it, and vary everyday.

Nothing better to join your students on the tarmac and fly for a drink or a cheesburger to pensacola airfield , and take a free courtesy car, and go to restaurant or go watch a movie when the weather is too bad.

they guy who tell me it' s a waste of time to be a flight instructor , are I think not very interested by this profession and are heading to a lot of desilusions..

Flight instructor is the best job ever!:ok:

[Muddy Boots]

I did it in America by being a ferry pilot. Moving aircraft coast to coast across the States for dealers. Great experience, dealing with airports I had never been to before and weather on route. I've been to 42 of the 50 US States now, including Alaska. Logistics was a lot of fun, trying to work out where to stay that night or how to get to a plane in the middle of Montana.

As a flight instructor you never get off the local sectional. You don't get to fly much either as the student is and your sitting there watching.

There's an instructor at my home airport that has about 4,000hrs that didn't move on when the time was right and is now the most jadded individual you'll ever meet...

[dakov]

Seems like a good place to ask though I'm expecting some of you will get seriously pi..ed with just the question;

here is the deal:
I did my ratings in US back in 2009 , than had to quit flying for two years due to some family and cash matters. Long story short, I have only the FAA's CPL ticket +ME and IR and basically no hours. No option to legally work in US (EU citizen) so getting a CFI is pointless . I'm almost done with EASA conversion but there is no hope for a job and european instructor's rating is a pain.

I got an option of starting a job in europe (small twin, cargo carrying in 2 pilot operation so rest assured I wont be low time B737 killer) with just one condition - additional 250-300 hours of ME time. I've got some money to cover the TB but it's far from 40k needed for 200 hours on a rented twin. I know I could naturally p2f to get right seat time in a p135 operation, but I'm still hoping there's another way to get those hours.

Tried to send some inquiries to some small companies around the world (those accepting FAA papers) with an idea that I'll pay for all additional training costs, want no compensation etc. As expected, just a few of them replayed, mostly saying they would like to help but need to give priority to locals.

So, strictly in my case, what do you guys think I should do ?

As shi..y as it sounds, P2F in a p135 scheme seems like the only option.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to support p2f or justify the idea of getting into it. And though it's not going to put me into debt - I'd still gladly fly a light twin instead, perhaps doing something useful at the same time.

Sorry this post got so long - been reading these forums for last couple of years so I guess it just accumulated :E.

[zondaracer]

Why do you say this...
and european instructor's rating is a pain.

Sure instructing is not for everyone, but why is instructor experience viewed so negatively on this forum? I know that the JAA FI is a bit more hindering than the FAA Instructor system, but it shouldn't be discounted so readily. Just my opinion

[SloppyJoe]

Instructing? That's how people used to get hours for a job if they did not have enough twin time, oh yeah thats a pain. Yep, pay to be a pilot there is just no other option.

[dakov]

I know that the JAA FI is a bit more hindering than the FAA Instructor system, but it shouldn't be discounted so readily.

Agreed - I wasn't precise enough. I don't have anything against JAA FI system, but it takes a really long time to get to the point where you'll be actually instructing and building some time.

As I mentioned, I'm describing my case - all guys who have time and feel that they'll actually do great being an FI should definitely do it.

SloppyJoe - I kind of expected someone to reply in this tone. Being a 20 yo guy at the point where I am now, I'd go for FI rating straight away.
And I really don't want this to be another useless discussion between pro and anti p2f guys.

[charliegolf]

Hours.

If you NEED c1500 hours to thaw your licences anyway, why don't you GET 1500 hours first? You can do it self-funded, part time, actually learning about aviation and flying.

All the while, you have an eye on the market. You don't work for peanuts- you have a proper job.

Nobody talks about enjoying flying any more, only getting a job. It surprises me.

CG

[aviofreek]

Maybe the problem is not bridging the gap between 300 and 1500 but in our twisted way of thinking that's slowly been creeping on us over the years.
We live in INSTANT world. Dunno exactly how we got here, but evereybody wants to do something over night. Get rich over night, become celebrity over night... Become an airline pilot over night...
You can try to become instant celebrity and there is no danger in doing it (with the exception of losing dignity - but to some people today it seems to be overrated :ugh:).
I just think there's much more at stake (besides your dignity) if you start your aviation career like that.

Just ask any of the old timer pilots (or not so old ones) how they started their career. And after how many hours of skydiver runs, air taxis, instructing, days hanging on the local airfield just to get a sniff of burned 100LL have they landed a first airline job...

[Dofi27]

Fi jaa is o ly handering in uk. Go to Spain (you can instruct n English) and you will find much easier

[ChriSat]

Not a good idea in my opinion. Why doesn’t the FAA expand the CPL/IR syllabus, make the IRT/ CPL Skills test longer and more difficult, or even extend the TR course and base training. Upping the hours requirement isn't necessarily going to weed out the bad pilots, and I would argue after 1,200 extra unsupervised single pilot operations, one’s airmanship and piloting skills would probably be worse, and less “mouldable” for progression onto heavy metal.

I seriously hope this isn't something EASA are contemplating implementing in the future, by feeling they have to keep up with the FAA... and if they do there should definitely be some kind of grandfather rights for ME-CPL/IR's that have done their MCC or otherwise all my training will have been done under false pretences.

Although looking at it realistically it is highly unlikely, even if they did want to create such a law here in EASA land, it would probably take 10 years of rubber stamping to be put through. As others have said this might be potentially be achievable in FAA land but not here.

[MajorCorporalArse]

I keep reading this "ask any old timer pilots"..

I've managed to meet quite a few command pilots for cathay, qantas, dragon air etc.. All say stuff it just get your arse into a jet and try your absolute hardest use us (your connections) and get into it.

They have said on multiple occasions, "forget the smaller GA because that's one thing I wish i didn't bother with for a career as I'd prefer to do that for fun and get in the big ones, been in the industry 25+ years (one 45)

These are guys in their late 50's (most) really nice blokes, on good coin willing to help out on multiple occasions.

I think do what is best for you, try and fight your way into the industry (not literally but get your foot in the door anyway possible) Because whats right for one might not be right for you..

[hikoushi]

My two cents as a US major airline pilot who started as a CFI:

Not to advise for or against PFT, etc. That is a matter of personal situation or personal opinion. But, just as a counter to the "GA / FI experience is worthless" crowd who may discourage you from FI'ing.

Started as a GA pilot with no professional aspirations, had another career and flew for fun. A lot. Decided to drop everything else and go for it. Being in the GA world already, went the GA route. Just wanted to be an instructor, looked up to my CFI (an old-timer). Got CFI, instructed about 1500 hours; got tons of multi / XC / night, checking experience, all over the country. Got an ATP on my own dime, just for fun. Decided to try airline flying and applied to a regional. Got hired and flew turboprops and RJs around the US. Upgraded to captain, made check airman. Applied to and eventually was hired at a US major. Still there, still love it. Still flying GA on the side and instructing a little, too.

For what it's worth, without the CFI experience would've never made check airman at the regional. Without that experience would've never had a chance at the major.
Instructing teaches you to instinctively feel what the other guy is doing. How to remain in control of an airplane while someone else is (unintentionally) trying to crash it, and stay calm. Believe me this will help you when you get a command somewhere. If you are a nervous-nellie by nature it's not for you, but otherwise it's unbeatable "command" training. Just make sure you maintain your own skills, both so they don't rust and so you can effectively demonstrate to students (which itself is an opportunity to practice).

Don't know what makes the European system so hard to work with, but instructing is instructing and I guarantee you you will be a better, more well-rounded pilot from doing it.

Whichever way you choose, good luck.

[flyboy1818]

I'm instructing part time, its great fun but I will probably only fly about 200-300 hours per year. Thankfully the 1500 hour rule has not yet made an apperance in Europe. I believe its a case of sitting tight for the next year or so until things start to improve (I'm still sending out the CV's).

Pre 2007 instructors with 500 hour TT plus were getting turboprop jobs in the UK, I'm not far off that now so I'm just waiting for the market to improve.

I love instructing but it will never pay the rent and put food on the table at PPL level. The only people I know who can afford to do it full time are twenty somethings who live at home with Mum and Dad rent free or people who have retired early and have a pension income.

[cefey]

Pushing people to instructing, is the worst thing they could do.
Even now, there is A LOT of poor instructors, who doing it ONLY to build hours.
Do they have knowledge? Experience? Passion and desire for teaching? No! And those guys, suppose to teach future aviators to become good, safe pilots?
Do they really think, if the put a guy, who just want to get into cockpit of shine airplane asap, who dont cares about knowledge, to sit in right (instructor) sit for 1 year, he will become better, safer pilot?

Imo it should be a lot harder to become FI, then airline pilot. And wage should be accordingly.

[Mickey Kaye]

" but it takes a really long time to get to the point where you'll be actually instructing and building some time"

Depends who your work for but I certainly know people in the UK logging 800 hours a year instructing and they managed that one year after qualifying.

[M-ONGO]

800 hours a year of instructing... That's hard work. Makes you think what quality of instruction was given. Makes Ryanair look like a holiday, what with briefings and all.

[FlyingSportsman]

Cant talk for the US, but would have to agree with the talk about instructors in Europe. As a student myself, I have the oppurtunity to have a quick chat with a fair few instructors. General consensus seems to be similar as to what is said here.

Another point is salary; to fly 800 hours per annum could be a pretty draining experience, working out about 15 hrs a week if my maths is right, assuming 7 days a week available, complete other story if you want part time. For EU guys I believe average for PPL instructor is about 20-25£ an hour.

What with paying off flying loans, general up keep e.t.c it must be extremely difficult to keep your head above water. Not sure if the situation is similar in the US, but it leads us to a pretty bleak conclusion either way.

[chebrown]

get to Africa - I'm thinking of doing just that. Is anybody doing it. Can find a little info on it. Everyone says to just go there and find out which is what I'm doing in Jan 2013. I've been doing my own research but would love any suggestions??

[Lightning Mate]

Pushing people to instructing, is the worst thing they could do.
Even now,
there is A LOT of poor instructors, who doing it ONLY to build hours.
Do
they have knowledge? Experience? Passion and desire for teaching? No! And those
guys, suppose to teach future aviators to become good, safe pilots?
Do they
really think, if the put a guy, who just want to get into cockpit of shine
airplane asap, who dont cares about knowledge, to sit in right (instructor) sit
for 1 year, he will become better, safer pilot?


It's called the blind leading the blind.

[flyliberty1]

First off, I'm a bigtime newbie (disclaimer). But...it seems like the hardest part is getting from 250 to 500. After 500 you've had a few jobs, know a few people, etc. I've been doing a little research locally and the nearest diver driver job starts at 1000TT, but that's turbine. Seems like most jobs you need at least 500TT. I dunno, it seems like CFI is the only way to go to build that time (especially multi) unless you a)are independently wealthy, b)go to africa or something, c)know someone who can line up some work, or d)go to a flight academy (see a.)
Most aerial survey...500TT
Regionals...500-1500TT and ATP usually
I've read lots of forums with guys saying no low time jobs start until 500TT. I've also read guys saying they got jobs straight out of CPL, but that's usually because they knew somebody.
I agree with some folks, it seems so backwards having newly-minted pilots teaching everyone to fly. But, not everyone can just take there time and "fly for fun" and all that. Gotta put food on your table at the end of the day, especially after spending so much money on school!
Or do I have it all wrong?

[Lightning Mate]

Or do I have it all wrong?

You most certainly do!

[AdamFrisch]

Having zero interest in having a career in aviation (as I already have a great one elsewhere) I think the 1500hr proposal is a great idea.

1. First of all, it will get rid of all the 250hr ab initio cadets that are trusted to ferry 300 people around. It's insane. In no other business is such low time on the job allowed so much trust.

2. Secondly, it will force airlines to pay for training, type ratings and decent salaries, as the pool of newbies willing to sell their grandmothers gold teeth to get on a flightdeck will diminish. Supply and demand will be restored as fewer will now become pilots and/or reach 1500hrs.

3. Thirdly, it will force pilots to mainly work in varied situations and get experience, but not only that, probably in aircraft that don't have fancy FMS's or even autopilots. This will prevent them from becoming "children on the magenta line" and automation junkies. This will make aviation safer for all of us.

4. Fourthly, it might just introduce a lot of pilots to a different type of flying and alternative careers within aviation. Anything that weens the starry eyed of the "big jet" is a good thing, in my opinion. Aviation isn't just flying Airbuses and Boeings around.

The bad? As someone mentioned - if it forces people into instructing who don't have the aptitude or interest for it just to get the hours, then that's not good. Hopefully this will be a minority and those who don't want to do that can build time some other way. This is only a Part 121 requirement to have an ATPL - for part 135 or 91 for hire, it's still just CPL, so there's plenty of opportunity to build hours just like in the past - banner towing, parachute jumps etc, etc.

[Big Pistons Forever]

I agree with everything Adam has said. The 1500 hr rule's major effect will be to get rid of most of the posers who want instant gratification and are only in it for ego boost of saying they are "jet pilots".

These 250 hr wonders who are so caught up in the "Shiny Jet Syndrome" that they are willing to take a Part 121 FO job on a transport category aircraft for $18,000 a year have destroyed the US regional airline as a place where somebody could aspire to a decent career.

Forcing everybody to apprentice in GA will not only give them a bit of real world experience but also weed out those who don't have a real commitment to flying.

It will also force the airlines to treat their pilots better as the inexhaustible supply of starry eyed wannabes won't be there anymore.

[Big Pistons Forever]

The fundamental problem is a training system that insufficiently equips crew with the skills required, an airline system that places such demands on people that cross-country commuting is the norm and not the exception, and a regulatory system that fails to act with rostering patterns that are unsustainable by any reasonable human.

.

The problem is that as long as airline bean counters treat training as an undesired expense which is to be minimized to the greatest extent possible and regulators get political heat from the airline lobby anytime they try to tighten things up, nothing is going to change.

The 1500 hr is far from the perfect solution but it has the very great strength of being unambiguous. There is no way this can be interpreted by airline execs to their advantage, which invariably means cut corners to save money. On average a 1500 pilot starting his/her first job rings more to the table than a 250 hr pilot fresh out of a college puppy mill. I think this is a good thing and will ultimately produce both safer operations and better terms and conditions for pilots.

[AdamFrisch]

The 1500 solution, as BPF, mentions isn't a perfect number.

But, if one were to hour build outside of instructing, either by renting or owning a small cheap aircraft (and I'll get back to that point), one would quite quickly go crackers by doing 1500hr circuits. So, in the event of a student wanting to hour build out of his own pocket, I think out of sheer self preservation (unless one wants to be permanently committed to a looney bin), it would eventually expands one's flying and result in longer cross country trips and facing the unknown. And I'm here slowly approaching my point: I've learned more from long distance flying to unfamiliar airfields, bad weather and challenging airspaces and procedures than I've ever done from anything else. I say this as a low time pilot. It has given me immense and valuable lessons and I'm sure it has given me better skills. So, in the very rare case that some mental self punisher would do 1500hr circuits, I think valuable skills will be developed.

Regarding the point of aircraft ownership for hour building: It would be a great service to all aviation if the effect of meeting 1500hrs would mean an increase in aircraft ownership. We couldn't ask for anything better.

[F4TCT]

In regard of building hours by taking parachutists up - well from what ive heard, its hard enough getting into that as it is as there's only so many parachute schools and aircraft to fly.

I inquired once and they wanted a min of 300 hours and rating on a Cessna caravan so surely gaining that is just as expensive as doing loads of hours in a share aircraft at £75 an hour or whatever...

I'd like to instruct one day and to be fair, i would find being an airline pilot boring. Id like to be a more hands on sort of pilot and gain some job satisfaction out of instructing for the rest of my days...

Dont get me wrong, throwing a big piece of metal round the sky would be awsome, but doing it everyday i think i would be bored.

Each of us have different ambitions and theres always both good and bad for a certain argument. People become complacent.

[Rogan82]

I was one of those who took the instructing path at 19 years old. With no money left and no one willing to pay much I joined the air force and have not looked back. All of my friends who went the non instructional path are still second officers for the majors. I have moved on from my heavy multi time and am back instructing (in the Airforce). There is many ways to skin a cat!

[sevenstrokeroll]

boy I hear alot of complaining about how hard it is. Well...Lindbergh instructed and that's good enough for me.

Give up everything and you will get ahead...think that it will be an easy course and you are wrong, unless daddy has lots of money.

IF it were easy, everyone would do it. you are being weeded out by those 300 to 1500 hours. I am a damn good pilot and it came from sacrifice not an easy time of it.

When I was waiting for a new student, I would read and enhance my knowledge. I would listen to other instructors and what they said to their students. I would go to the bench and watch landings and learn.

Do whatevery you like. Blame the FAA or the wretched way you guys do things in Europe.

But put up or shut up...put up by paying your dues the hard way.

[Nekro]

Most people here are complaining about no jobs etc. well if you think you have bad luck then ask a pilot from the Middle East. well, for a normal guy with say an ATPL/JAA licence in Europe, you can go to your local flight academy and apply for an instructor/bush pilot/sea plane pilot/ small cargo companies. if not then you can go 1 or 2 hours away and apply to other similar places if your local place are not hiring or w.e.

In the Middle east there is no sea plane/bush pilot/flight academys. I repeat, there are are barely any FLIGHT SCHOOLS in here. so guys have to travel to get their license and some have to travel to get :mad: jobs to build their hours since local airlines don't hire low hour pilots. and when they come back, you know what? for me, I have 2 bloody airlines to apply to. I'm from Bahrain and we have 2 airlines and one of them is like shutting soon.
if you think your chances are low, then ask me! I'm basically getting the :mad: in every "door I open". I can't work in America and Europe due to my nationality. my only chance is Bush pilot in Africa. it's a :mad: career to go with, but I damn love this job so you have to take one for the planes.