Have you noticed the increase in cabin baggage?

[fury]

I haven't travelled down the back of a domestic flight for a while, but I was on a 73 last week and every overhead bin was full of small carry-on luggage. There seems to be a rise in carry on baggage for two reasons, 1. the length of time it takes to retieve checked baggage at the other end, and 2. the extra cost of checked baggage. The NTSB has noted a fault with overhead bins that may cause injury in survivable accidents.
Have a look when you next jump on board a flight and check this outthis NTSB hyperlink for mods to 737's http://r20.rs6.net/tn.jsp?et=1109391692355&s=10558&e=001z8vBhLwaob1vUXkdOwaVGVcJc2-M2JsYoOBpWUo1KcNgKm2n5UUNN1IOlkSin6O9K67CBHkbfAENM9HJae6qeZu ZHcLl83LCUHYwgaMAREPe4elUUOV1Lt2sgPtBvkuFqfFYfemxycm4sW5whLQ Y-t5opUiARmE-I2lHmS2IT3I=

[Roger Greendeck]

If you think it's bad here, try flying on a domestic sector in the US. There are a huge number of roll aboard cases plus handbags and backpacks. Some of this is for access in flight such as briefcases, handbags etc but most is to avoid checking the luggage.

Low cost operators have charged for baggage on the grounds of cost. Obviously it does cost fuel to carry weight and then that fuel costs more fuel but only charging for checked baggage and letting people carry heavy bags into the cabin doesn't make the aircraft lighter, it just looks that way when you use standard weights.

So here's my idea. Charge people a ticket that includes a baggage weight allowance (make it generous, say 30-40kg). At check in your checked luggage is weighed. At the gate your carry on is weighed as you present your boarding pass. At each point you receive a receipt for your own records but the computer calculates how much of your entitlement you have not used (hence the generous point above) and by the time you land your credit card has been refunded for the amount you didn't use. Frequent flyers could opt for points instead and get a bonus percentage for not taking the cash.

People like getting money, not shelling it out. Therefore, psychologically they will be happier even though the cost is no different than paying for baggage by the kg. The airline wins because it has the cash up front and if the refund is in miles it has it for even longer. The cost per kg can also be sharpened because the bean counters don't have to account for unknown amounts of baggage as there are no standard weights.

It will take some time to process each bag at the gate but there will be a decrease in time for pax deciding whether to pay for carry on and then processing that payment. If it reduces carry on the loading and unloading times will be faster and pax will be happier with the inflight experience.

And we all win because The risk posed by overhead luggage coming adrift in flight or in an accident is reduced.

[Jabawocky]

Simple...........BAN anything bigger than my laptop backpack, There is no need for anything more. That is what the hold is for.

And yes it drives me mad too. I struggle to use a small amount of carry on because of the LUGGAGE carried on.

[crwjerk]

Charge people a ticket that includes a baggage weight allowance (make it generous, say 30-40kg
You mean, the way it's always been on airlines? :D

[mates rates]

there use to be a 10kg limit in the CAO's but it seems to have been removed !!

[newsensation]

I thought that the Air Navigation Act required the pilot to know the Actual Take Off Weight of the Aircraft, with so many oversized, overweight, carry on bags how do you know?
CASA??

[apache]

I agree. It has been a thorn in my side for ages... but NO ONE in authority cares.

As far as I am concerned, ALL air tickets SHOULD be sold with a checked in baggage included. IF this means that LCC's have to raise their airfares by $20 ... so be it!

it seems that DECENT airlines are the ones getting punished for doiung the right thing.

BTW... if you REALLY want to put in a report... have a look inside the overhead locker. it WILL state a max weight. IF that has been exceeded then it is a reportable offence, IMHO.

[compressor stall]

I was paxing on DJ home the other day and two flights were combined due to u/s aircraft. At the boarding gate, the announcement came over that due to the full flight, the overhead lockers were going to be full so if anyone wanted to check their bags into the hold, they were welcome - and no charge would be made.

At least 40 people went to the counter with their overnight wheely bags and were happy to send them below.

Based on that observation, I'd say it's the cost, not the wait at the other end that does it for most people.

[layman]

What about an allowance covering total weight of: passenger + checked luggage + carry-on?

Passenger stands on scales with "all" their bags and coats and ... whatever else they are carrying onboard. No weight shown only how many points (using Roger G's idea) earned ... or lost?

Aside from logistics, time, customer pushback, infringement of 'rights'. any other issues to stop this being done?

Time is the issue with me. Getting to the taxi queue before my fellow riff-raff saves considerable time.

Disclosure: just a passenger of below average weight mostly on day trips with a small backpack who is a bit pissed off with the volume brought onboard ... and just a bit concerned about the (unknown) weight of it all.

[Ultralights]

how about a flat rate per Kg. including the pax weight... simple.
you can estimate weight when buying ticket, but at check in, get refund or pay extra if you over or under estimate... :}

i can see it now, Sydney to Melbourne, $0.99 per/kg!

[ampclamp]

cramming 150 plus bums into a 738 or the like with many pax carrying roller luggage is one of the main reasons for departure delays. Getting everyone seated and bags stowed is a major problem. If on time departures are paramount , the airlines need to sort it out.

[clark y]

The cost saving to the airlines is not just the mythical fuel saving but a reduction in ground handling facilities. i.e. 150 pax with 200+ bags in the lockers but only 50 bags in the hold. If the airlines could have zero hold baggage then they could completely do away with ground baggage handling. Just remember to keep you heads down when paxing so you don't get clobbered as others open the overfull lockers. I like the way it used to be.


Clark y

[Jabawocky]

Maybe the airlines should just do this.

http://media.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_C-17_Interior_Air_Drop_lg.jpg

[Captain Gidday]

I was paxing on DJ home the other day and two flights were combined due to u/s aircraft.
It's weird, isn't it, that most times there is a 'u/s aircraft' it works out that two planeloads of pax can be squashed into one aircraft.
I mean, what are the chances of that happening, randomly.

[Wally Mk2]

EVERYTHING is based on one thing in aviation, MONEY! Safety & common sense take a back seat!
If the money greedy CEO's could get people to stand instead of sitting & carry all their bags on board they would, less handling of bags etc means less manpower means less outgoing costs.
Overweight A/C T/off world wide everyday despite the Regs, the Regs are like locked doors, there only for the honest thieves!

Recently we had a family of five (2 adults 3 rug rats) board at the last minute, 11 bags in total between them even though 10 was the max between them they still got thru.
No room for their bags/luggage as overheads where bulging already.Open cargo door remove all 11 bags from cabin & stow to lower hold inc some other extra large bags the 'trolly dollies' found stuffed under seats, great there goes several min delay!!!!!:ugh:
An easy fix is reduce the cabin bag size, not just the weight.


Wmk2

[Icarus2001]

I agree that this IS an issue.

However, at present airlines in Australia do not even KNOW WHO is ON their aircraft. So long as the sex of the pax at boarding gate matches the boarding pass then satff are happy.

What happens if I give my boarding pass to someone after checking in bags?

If you want to start somewhere with all this then start there. The whole system is flawed.

Don't think the security mandarins do not know this. Testing has shown how easy it is to do.

[Fris B. Fairing]

It doesn't seem so long ago that airlines went to considerable effort to encourage pax to stow their bags in the hold. Sometimes we would have two staff on the boarding gate just to police cabin baggage - because it was a safety issue. These days the airlines don't have the staff to police cabin baggage and their policy of charging for checked baggage effectively encourages pax to take as much as possible in the cabin. This is just one of many lessons that will have to be re-learned.

[Worrals in the wilds]

If I fly domestically I usually carry a max size wheelie carry on bag, because why pay more for the honour of putting it in the hold?

However, I do keep my carry on bag under 7 kgs and I can get it in and out of a locker in the time it takes some dribbling idiots (sorry, fellow pax) to figure out how their seatbelt works. :\

The airlines have created this rod for their own backs by grabbing the quick buck re check in baggage. It's more of the usual airline short term bean counting that we all know and love:}.

They obviously won't spare the resources to weigh bags at the boarding gate either, so no wonder pax are boarding with monster suitcases, garden statuary and microwave ovens when they know they'll probably get away with it. Everyone else...buy a hard hat and get ready to duck. :ouch:

[gobbledock]

Jaba, careful mate. Boston Bruce will get a chubby over that photo! A plane crammed full of bodies and what looks like just 1 cabin crew - his dream come true !!
Mind you, his little mate at another carrier, you know, the little fella who has minimal 'carry on baggage' of his own so to speak would also get excited amongst all those men, even room for the poodles !!

[Eastwest Loco]

Cabin bag smuggling has been rife for years too.

I pinged one "regular" who walked in with a regulation size cabin bag but was about 3" lower on the bag side of his body than the other.

Stick it on the scales mate drew indignant comments. 24 kilos of hand loaded competition shotgun ammo. Guess where that didn't go.

The best onboard effort I ever saw was in HKG on an AN 743 service with the Chinese boarding staff letting anything through and a lovely blonde lady on the door rejecting everything that was oversize.

One Chinese dude next to me did try to stash his gear under the seat in front of me and I told him to pound wet sand up his backside.The F/A's looked at each other asking how in hell he got on with it and made him go back and pay the excess and check it in I am 6'4" and that is MY SPACE!

Standard weights seem to have gone to hell as the punters will conceal what they don't want the airline to know about over their 7/10 kg carry on limit.

Give them an inch, they will take the full length of the runway and hopefully nothing beyond.

Bring back inclusive baggage as a legal requirement.

Safety is No Accident - on every TAA Load and Trim document and still valid now - if we could only pull the accountants away from the smell of the trough and the tasty revenue and potential bonuses for them.

Best all

EWL

[...still single]

Southwest Airlines in the US still allow TWO items of checked baggage for free. I think they are the only ones left who do this.

They have the fastest turnarounds of anyone.

Just sayin'...

[KittyKatKaper]

I am still amazed that in this day and age of technology we are still using 'standard' weights for pax.

How hard would it be to put a low-profile weighing load-cell in front of the check-in counters., you will then have the pax+luggage+carryon weight.
I mean, at the flaming poxy 'self check-in' kiosks there already is a weigher to weigh the hold baggage, so why not expand the footprint a bit to include the baggage+pax+carryon ?

Sure., there will be technical issues such as people clustering at the counter or self-checkin area, but a bit of 'could you please step behind/off that line' and some basic sanity-checking of the total measured weight would solve that.

If the airlines measured the real pax+baggage+carryon weigh they could then maximise their freight load, but only after taking in to account the captains view of how much fuel to take for the trip + Wx + probable delays.

[Icarus2001]

Now that is funny.

If the airlines measured the real pax+baggage+carryon weigh they could then maximise their freight load, but only after taking in to account the captains view of how much fuel to take for the trip + Wx + probable delays.

If the airlines measured the real pax+baggage+carryon weight then they would prove something that they actually already know. Their aircraft are overweight!

Major ripples through the industry with airfares jacked up 10% overnight.

I agree that the technology is available, just as it is for oleo based on aircraft scales. There is no appetite for this for commercial reasons but remember everyone SAFETY FIRST and SAFE SKIES FOR ALL.

[Eastwest Loco]

Good call Kitty, in that the "pay for baggage"has blurred the lines a lot.

Back in the day of the Mk1 F27 which had only 780 gals underwing and 810 gals overwing fuel capacity (and we often had to get Spud Whitely at Wynyard to wingwalk for the extra 30 gallons) we tried to get out ofweight problems by weighing the passengers (36 or 40 max) their bags and hand luggage.

It was quite amazing that the most you would win or lose was around 20kg total.

If the weight problem couldn't be solved quite often the Bomber Command boys and the ex New Guinea guys would modify the load and trim sheets themselves and roll zero flap wet power and if the girl didn't want to unstick they would crank 16 degrees of flap in an suddenly they were at 40 feet.

I was told it was the same in Goroka - just get airborne somehow by the end of the runway and put the nose down into the valley.

Where have those days gone. 200 feet coastal between DPO and WNY, follow the railway line and turn port 20 at the Spencer Division Hospital?

LCCs have thrown away a great deal of common sense for the sake of dollars.

Best all

EWL

[aluminium hail]

Aviation - Measure everything with a micrometer, mark it with chalk, and then cut it with an axe!

However I think the axe seems to be cutting higher and further to the right each time I swing it. :=

[Normasars]

Just looking around the terminals that I visit on a daily basis, one would be hard pressed to find a set of scales that could take the "average" passenger weight these days. Let alone the additional checked and carry-on stuff. Every second punter needs an extension seatbelt :eek:

[27/09]

The carry on baggage issue was aired in the New Zealand Herald recently by the travel columnist. It was a very very good article. Take a look here Jim Eagles: Do carry-on bag hogs get you riled? - Travel - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=10782213)

There was a follow up article here Jim Eagles: Angry readers react to overhead locker hogs - Travel - NZ Herald News (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/travel/news/article.cfm?c_id=7&objectid=10785286)

I particularly liked this bit of the second article

If that doesn't sound very encouraging, Thomas AB suggested a tactic frustrated passengers could adopt.

"Whenever I go to my seat and my overhead locker is full, which happens often, I take out some luggage and put it on the floor. If someone from another row claims it, I pass it on to them to store above their row. Most of the time the stewardess intervenes and takes away their luggage to store it somewhere else. Works for me."

[teresa green]

Your not wrong, I use JQ fortnightly to NTL to see the family. I am just waiting for someone to bring a small fridge. The stuff that comes on board is unbelievable, tennis rackets, small boogie boards, strange wrapped brown paper parcels, HUGE backpacks, over sized cabin bags, and I think the CC at the gate, knowing the turn around time, feel obliged to let it go, or keep the aircraft on the ground. The cabin is fast becoming part of the cargo hold.

[Counter-rotation]

http://s1078.photobucket.com/albums/w485/Lifeisaholiday/?action=view&current=Photo0627.jpg

[Counter-rotation]

Dammit :O, I can't get my post to show the image... It's of a guy, heading down the aerobridge with a PIANO ACCORDIAN strapped to his back. :}

[Wally Mk2]

'TG' perhaps we ought to load all the pax into the lower hold/s as there pressurized anyway & dump the bags/freight in the overhead lockers, at least the freight/bags don't smell & behave like animals in flight!:-)

Once upon a time it was considered a privilege to fly only afforded by the well to do & therefore flying only attracted the well mannered & educated people who knew how to behave & traveled with dignity now it's a free for all & a 'cattle ship' in the sky !!!!

Putting the fairs up to fix a lot of aviation's problems would be at first a backward step as customers wouldn't fly for a little while but like petrol that goes up day after day at first we all bitch & moan about it but we still cue up for it as it's a necessity just like flying is now for the masses. The boguns are hooked:)


Wmk2

[Worrals in the wilds]

Wally, hear what you're saying but the so called privileged pax can be just as revolting to deal with. Appalling tantrums about having to put their phone down for a whole eight seconds to go through an X ray (But I'm important! It's an important call! Laws don't apply to me!:*), Dodgy proposed carry on items like spear guns excused by "but I'm Business Class"...of course violent people can't possibly afford business class fares :rolleyes:, monster, toddler style tempers because the Qantas Club won't allow twenty inebriated, non-flying friends as 'guests' on one standard Membership card...Pollies who behave like a commercial airline is their own personal RAAF One so they can turn up when they feel like it (departure times and schedules are so plebian, whatddya mean the other 150 pax can't wait for me? I'm Important, they should be grateful to share my air for a couple of hours:hmm:)...Massive amounts of undeclared dutiable / quarantine controlled goods because they were 'too busy' to read the declaration properly, particularly the bit that lists the penalties:ooh:... :mad: 'em all.

Dealing with pax helps you to realise that a small but significant proportion of humans are basically hairless chimpanzees. Other people may like to differ (and I respect that) but I never saw much difference between the swanks and the ferals in this respect.

The difference with the ferals is that a lot of them aren't experienced air travellers and the rules haven't been well defined. If there was a big message that popped up when you book a ticket saying "this is the max sized bag, you need to wear shoes or you don't get on and don't think we're going to serve you a lifetime's supply of piss in an hour forty flight" and it was enforced with a rod of iron, most people would cotton on quickly. The trouble is, there's no consistency, no clear rules and no set standard about how to behave.

You wouldn't get in to a major city hotel restaurant drunk and wearing thongs and boardies, and most people know that. Why is it different for an airline? That's the airlines' fault for not setting a standard and having the balls to enforce it. Same with bags.

[gobbledock]

Nothing changes, sadly it is the passengers that take the fun out of flying for a living!

[Icarus2001]

the well mannered & educated people Putting the fairs up to fix a lot
I love irony.:rolleyes:

[fencehopper]

I'm well under the standard weight for a pax and it annoys me that i don't get credit for that. I can't remember the last time i had checked baggage. Even when going overseas i just take a cabin sized bag. Weight limit here in OZ but none in the US. Yes every overhead bin is full in the US no one checks baggage, hell i even saw people with small dogs and cats in a small carry on. There should be a weight limit on carry on bags, when we landed at Salt Lake City after a frantic last second go around we spanked on and a bin popped open and i lost a tooth when a real heavy bag wacked me in the head. Worked out OK tho. Few hours delay then bumped up to first class for the rest of the trip and a fat cheque for next years trip.
FH

[Worrals in the wilds]

...hell i even saw people with small dogs and cats in a small carry onCool. :E
I remember a bloke with a kitten in his overcoat pocket which was found at the screening point. The wand person thought it was a toy until it tried to bite her. He kicked up a hell of a stink when he was told kittens weren't allowed in the cabin. Even after the airline offered him a free cage in the hold to make him be quiet (for the kitten, not him, tempting though it was ;)) he still carried on like a pork chop. From memory, niether of them ended up flying.

Pax...:rolleyes:
i lost a tooth when a real heavy bag wacked me in the head. Out of interest, did you sue?

[Wally Mk2]

'worrals' I think yr more ref to the modern day so called educated well to do pax behaving like you described in which case yr mostly correct I was more ref to pax in the era of pre mass transport DC6's etc, they where the 'proper' pax to have aboard:-)
Some of today's bogun pax treat flying as it where just boarding a public bus that is rough as guts to them it's hurry up lets get aboard with as much stuff as we can carry for free & behave like cattle!
Also 'worrals' am not too sure "fencehopper's name is Sue but with a name like 'fencehopper' ya just never know:E" (sorry 'fence' just a little joke):)


Wmk2

[skipper1981]

What happened to the sizing frames that stood adjacent to the check in counters that served as a guide to the size of carry-on bags? I am apalled at what some airlines let on board nowdays,to say nothing of the extra weight involved.

[Fris B. Fairing]

I recall a little old lady who was relieved of excessive cabin baggage at the gate. Says LOL: "You will be careful with it won't you? It's very fragile". Staff at the gate thought they better ask what was in the bag. Says LOL: "It's my son's crash helmet".

Bell? Arai? Royal Doulton?

[Alloyboobtube]

So if you operate at MTOW and/OR MLW then you will have in most cases exceeded the stuctural limits of the aircraft.
For example if 200 pax have an extra 10 kg of cabin bag and or excess chub above standard weight then the aircraft could be 2 tonnes heavier than predicted. (not unrealistic).
Can engineers comment on how much buffer is allowed on structural limitations.

[PPRuNeUser0212]

how about the fare is for 130kg (person, checked bags and 7kg carry on) then charge whatever each airline charges per kilo over, but 7kg "carry on" is the upper limit.
Then we won't have to stand behind the suits trying to cram suitcase into the overheads.
Political Correctness and Sensitivities Ignored.

LHS

[SpannerTwister]

Here's a controversial thought for you, I mostly blame the CSM's !

Most of the posters in this thread are suggesting that "the airlines" should enforce the rules.

Well hello !!!

What is the suggestion, That AJ stands at each and every boarding gate and inspects / measures / weighs each and every passengers bag ?

No, The CSM's need to "grow a pair" and tell the boarders to make sure that cabin baggage limitations ARE ENFORCED.

And in the event that any ground staff or duty airport manager gives the FA's / CSM's a hard time then the Captain needs to stand up for the cabin staff and tell the ground staff that these are the rules and the cabin staff are right to enforce them.

I'm definitely not one for supporting AJ, but in this case "The Company" HAS made the rules, if the staff are not going to enforce them, whose fault is that ?

Captains reading this, on your next flight TELL YOUR CSM's THAT YOU EXPECT THAT THEY WILL ENSURE CABIN BAGGAGE LIMITATIONS ARE ENFORCED.

ST

[indamiddle]

skipper, re the size test units in the lounge.
pax have no idea what they are for. a number of years ago at syd domestic i saw a punter with bag in the unit and dragging the whole contraption by the strap handle up the concourse to their gate lounge. they must have been from a place with lots of snow. best laugh staff had in years.

[ditzyboy]

In my experience, baggage is fairly well scrutinised at Qantas Domestic, with a dash of common sense thrown in.

One problem is that the 767 interior was designed in the late 70's/early 80's when pax did not bring on as much luggage and the original 737-800 interior was designed around a two class capacity of 150 - not the 168 or more that you seen at our full service airlines.

Another problem is the refusal of most pax travelling on business to put one of their two bags under the seat in front. This is due to the lack of legroom and it also seems to be some sort of 'status' thing - like claiming the most space makes them feel better.

Many times, I've have pulled up male pax with three or more pieces tell me they are carrying them for a female colleague who has already boarded. I have caught a couple out, but what can one realistically do in most cases?

Cabin crew can be pressured to make it work as current procedures have the baggage loading equipment withdrawn when the last pax scans their boarding pass - which can easily be ten minutes before they enter the cabin (let alone attempt to find room for their luggage). This means that the pax luggage, which is fully compliant with (or even less than) the allowance is not able to fit in the cabin and will follow on the next flight (hopefully). Try telling someone going to Adelaide for 4-8 hours that their bag will be 2 hours behind them! Not a position most cabin crew are comfortable with.

The only answer I can think of would be to rip out seats or restrict the allowance to one piece of DOMESTIC size luggage. Can't see either happening, sadly.

Anyone ever observed how few pax are at the carousels and compared it to the number onboard? I know of CSMs who have delays due to cabin baggage track down the number of pax vs. the number of checked bags. The statistics shocked me.

Back up from the pilots would be great, but do they have the time to be exerting such authority in the current work environment? Do they want to be involved in what the punters see as a purely customer service issue? I do not think many pax make the link between baggage allowances and safety.

[SpannerTwister]

(1).......... with a dash of common sense thrown in.

(2).....I've have pulled up male pax with three or more pieces tell me they are carrying them for a female colleague who has already boarded..... but what can one realistically do in most cases?

(3)......Cabin crew can be pressured to make it work

(4).......as current procedures have the baggage loading equipment withdrawn when the last pax scans their boarding pass

(5).......which can easily be ten minutes before they enter the cabin (let alone attempt to find room for their luggage).

(6)........This means that the pax luggage, which is fully compliant with (or even less than) the allowance is not able to fit in the cabin and will follow on the next flight (hopefully).

(7) Try telling someone going to Adelaide for 4-8 hours that their bag will be 2 hours behind them! Not a position most cabin crew are comfortable with.

(8).......Back up from the pilots would be great, but do they have the time to be exerting such authority in the current work environment......I really think we're close to finding the cause of the problem with excess cabin baggage, It really seems to me that STAFF don't / won't enforce the rules !!

(1) OK, Sounds right off the bat you knowingly allow "some" excess baggage on as a matter of course

(2) What can you do if someone presents with three bags....Tell the pax that HE is permitted TWO bags, and if his female colleague wants to come and get hers FROM THE BOARDING GATE she is welcome to come back

(3) "Pressured" to do their job, which is to stop the excess baggage that they are complaining about ?

(4) Not your problem, besides the B737 can have bags thrown in the holds basically right up to pushback, the belt doen't leave the B767 "boot" until just a few minutes before pushback.

(5) As above

(6) There would be more room for compliant luggage if the non-compliant luggage was stopped at the gate !

(7) "I'm sorry sir, you bag exceeds the allowable limits, we can try to get it in the hold for you if you like but it might miss the flight."

(8) Agreed, If the cabin crew / CSM find something over the limit the flight crew MUST back them up 100%

As long as the cabin crew do not enforce the baggage allowances, who can complain if passengers bring what is indeed permitted by the cabin crew ?

Sure, the Jetstar / Tiger / LCC passengers whine and bitch that they need to check in half a day before their flight, but THEY KNOW THEY HAVE TO, AND THE CONSEQUENCES IF THEY DON'T !!

I'm sorry, but your post just seems to me to be a bunch of reasons as to why cabin crew don't enforce the rules.

ST

[Worrals in the wilds]

You're probably right, but IME; whatever the occupation frontline serfs only enforce rules if they are confident management will back them up, even if it pisses off customers.

If they're not confident they won't play, because it's not worth the potential embarassment when the manager backs the skanky pax (sorry customer / 'guest' :rolleyes:) over the serf in the interests of 'customer service' and 'goodwill'. :yuk:

From your username, I assume you are a LAME? Being a skilled tradesperson is very different from being a customer service serf, you have a lot more say in how things are done because your qualification allows you to sign off on things and your manager can't override that, even if they wanted to. As a serf, your options are pretty much shut up or push off.

This is where responsibility passes up the chain to the management who have to say 'This is what we expect, and we will back you up on it.' Ten to one...that isn't happening. If there was a culture of enforcing the baggage regs throughout our major airlines, we wouldn't be seeing these issues.

[SpannerTwister]

WitW.........

Yes, Unfortunately, I have to agree with you 100%, if the boarding FA doesn't have confidence that their CSM will back them up, if the CSM doesn't have confidence that the local airport manager will back them up, I guess it does make it harder for them.

If they're not confident they won't play, because it's not worth the potential embarassment when the manager backs the skanky pax (sorry customer / 'guest' :rolleyes:) over the serf in the interests of 'customer service' and 'goodwill'. :yuk:

Nooo....That wouldn't happen would it !!!

Of course, from the companies point of view, is there really a problem ?

Some flights are delayed a few minutes while passengers stow their luggage, I bet that doesn't count against any managers KPI...So no problem :yuk: !!

ST

[Oriana]

I bet that doesn't count against any managers KPI...So no problem

WRONG!

It does count against a manager's KPI.

The problem is the airport managers want the aircraft off their ramp asap, on time.

SO, oversized bags get to the gate, the boarding CC gets no support from the ground staff, the bags make it to the aeroplane, so no delay down to airport staff.

It now becomes the aeroplane's problem, and the delay goes down to the aircrew (as the pax have boarded IAW with airport ground timeline), the ground crew close up the hold, then it's left to the CC to offload the bag, and have to explain to the passenger that the oversized bag will not go into the hold, and will be sent on the next flight.:eek:

Funnily enough, the local ground manager or team leader is usually not anywhere near this scene, and so the CC and the CM are left to deal with the irate pax, and then have to cop dirty looks (or worse) for the duration of the flight. Some have the balls to do so, others don't have the stomach for the extra grief.

The flight ops management get stung for the delay, and it affects their KPI - so then all the most minutae of details are scrutinised to see where a few seconds can be shaved off preparing the aircraft for flight can be found, including unrealistic timelines that aircrew have to work through in order to avoid an email asking to 'please explain' why their ship was 2 minutes late off the blocks.

Oh, and don't get me started on verifying that the actual weights in the OH lockers are not in exceedance of the locker weight limit - apparently, to monitor that with scales at every gate, would require 'costly' calibration and verification to each scale as they are deemed 'commercial'. Conveniently, the only system in place to 'monitor' this is - standard weights.:hmm:

[mates rates]

As with all of these things the real reason for originally limiting overhead baggage was the effect in an accident.Do you want to be killed by being hit on the head by some bulky/heavy piece from the overhead locker or have your exit blocked by same and die by being trapped in the ensuing fire?That's why there needs to be a return to size and weight limits as originally legislated.

[framer]

It now becomes the aeroplane's problem, and the delay goes down to the aircrew (as the pax have boarded IAW with airport ground timeline),
We have motivated our people, but we've motivated them to achieve the wrong thing. Each individual department wants to achieve their own goal regardless of whether that is good for the operation as a whole. KPI's are a flawed system and they prevent teamwork.

[SpannerTwister]

I bet that doesn't count against any managers KPI.......WRONG!

It does count against a manager's KPI.

The problem is the airport managers.........Ah...Thanks for that, I never realised that that was how the chain was working !!!

Each individual department wants to achieve their own goal regardless of whether that is good for the operation as a whole. KPI's are a flawed system and they prevent teamwork.

And the "segmentation" of the business is, IMHO, a total disaster for the very same reason you mention !

Everyone is looking after "their" KPI's / budgets / departments, completely without regard as to what is best for "The Company".

/ Bangs head against wall :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:! ! !

ST

[Counter-rotation]

Not sure who here is a driver, who's a CC etc... But:

If you are truly worried

1) Safety incident reports guys, that's aircrew and CC.

2) Get the "managers" to respond - I bet I know which side they will support. Now you have all the ammo you need to act without fear, one way or the other.

3) Captains can start briefing, reminding CC that safety reports will continue to go in, if they don't take it seriously (dependant of course on step 2).

4) Pax get the picture - eventually (can't hope for miracles!)

Do we (pilots) arrive at a destination with low weather, and THEN start thinking about an alternate? Do CC commece checking fire extinguishers are on board AFTER a fire breaks out?

Start tomorrow, people. Hang that, start today.

If not truly worried

1) Accept it and move on. :ouch:

[ranmar850]

It has to start with check-in staff...oh, wait, we don't have them any more with QF and J*, (Virgin?)do we. Just staff assisting people to use the automated check-in. Or people do an online check-in beforehand. So they arrive at the gate unscrutinised, and the gate staff don't pull them up. Not that check-in counter staff are blameless--I was sitting near the gate waiting for Skywest boarding in Perth last year, near a woman carrying three large tote bags. The gate attendant spotted her, walked over, and asked if she had checked in downstairs? Yes, was the reply. The incredulous attendant then directed the offender back downstairs to check in some of her excess. I felt like cheering.:ok:

[teresa green]

And don't you just love the ******** who slams a OVERSIZE backpack down on top of your Laptop. I now try to keep it with me, not always easy on the A320 run to NTL, especially as they put most staff into the emergency rows, but they know me now, and know trying to relieve me of it, is not easy. It just fits into the Magazine rack.

[givemewings]

Oriana, :D you have described it perfectly.

With all due respect Spanner, I have observed on many occasions the bagagge loaders being withdrawn -10 to departure and the handlers (especially in Sydney) moving off to unload/load the next aircraft. I'd regularly end up on the airbridge with 6-12 oversize bags, with no-one pickig up the phone, the dispatcher had :mad: off to god knows where and the clock is ticking.... I've done my bit... where is everyne else?

Safety reports do diddly-squat, I must have lodged a dozen or more in my time at QF on this very issue. Never got a response.

A large problem as mentioned is the pax. They flat out refuse to put a laptop bag under the seat in front. Refuse to take my advice that on the 767 the inboard locker is smaller than the outboard and stow their bags accordingly. Ignore me and do what they want. Clock ticking. Now have to rearrange said bags. Numpty refusing to put the laptop bag out of the o/h and under the seat in front of him is holding up the exit row briefing as those pax have no choice but to put their bags up (o/h above exit row is taken up with assorted sh!t like jackets, small handbags etc. Verbal altercation ensues when pax are politely asked to hold jackets and stow handbags under the seats. Pushback cannot happen until briefing is complete.

Boarding held up while bags are in aisle. Crews getting frayed tempers after copping (uneasonable) abuse from pax who think they have the right to carry on a small horse.

In my opinion these are the issues:

1. Ground crew not backing up cabin crew b/c they don't want to deal with it (quote from ground crew in Sydney some years ago "I don't get paid enough to deal with this sh!t")

2. Inadequate signage onboard (my suggestion for placards for Priority Storage for Exit Rows was ignored by 2 airlines)

3. Differing cabin configurations. QF in particular needs a separate test unit for as long as they operate the 767.

4. Clearer baggage rules printed in BOLD WITH PICTURES on the back of boarding cards.

5. Check in staff who actually gie a rats'. Unfortunately those of us that do, and try to do our jobs properly, get so pissed off with this current state of things that we quit, thus making the problem worse. It's a vicious circle.

I could go all day.

If you think cabin baggage is bad in Oz or US, come fly in the Middle East. It's ridiculous. Full hold-sized suitcases coming in as 'carry on'. Don't think so mate- back to the gate for you!!!

PS- for those who think the overhead locker above their seat 'belongs' to them- if someone has carry-on sized bags in there, and is sitting within a row or two, then they are entitled to keep it there. The locker is a shared space, there is not one for every seat. For you to move it because you're so dependent as to need your bags right above your head, is extremely rude and could leave you open to accusations of attempted theft from said bags if anything is missing. You pay for a space to stow your bag IF AVAILABLE, if not then board sooner. IF the bags are bigger than carry-on size, feel free to advise the crew who will deal with it accordingly.

Behaviour like this doesn't help the situation and often leads to fights onboard.

[skybed]

listen and listen carefully
no one is backin up a CSM or CC members when it comes to excess baggage.Try to read the updated baggage allowance domestic and international. try to find any hand luggage in transit with a transit tag.try to check the allowance for FFCL/FFPO/FFPL etc. or FFBR etc. and lets not forget the code share partners etc.:ugh: It's a lot more complicated thats why no one wants to enforce restrictions especially airport managers( previous posts on KPI's):ugh:


Its a bit like RSA(responsible service of alcohol) in the lounges. how many pax would you have to unload if you put a breathalysers at the gate?
Bars are supervised in the lounges?
Just saw another big porky flying by..............
S

[psycho joe]

I'd add that Airlines should be also pro-actively educating the few large chain stores that sell the majority of luggage.

On plenty of occasions I've seen large behemoth, wheeled suitcases proudly extolled as being the largest case that will (cough) "fit" into an overhead locker. :eek:

[framer]

One of you CSM's who are planning on retireing should spend the last month or two traveling with a set of digital bathroom scales. Set them down by the door and weigh any larger bags and line up all >7kg ones in the bridge and refuse to carry them in the cabin.
It would annoy a lot of people but you'd force a change and make me laugh at the same time. It could be your legacy :) (In addition, you may save some kid from having his head stoved in during an over-run or turb some time down the track).

[Slippery_Pete]

I travelled in cattle class today on a domestic and saw the BIGGEST suitcase you have ever seen go down the aisle (one with the four little wheels on the bottom). The CSM allowed it to go straight past them during boarding.

It only rolled down the aisle in business, once cattle class was reached, no matter how much the dumb b**** tried, she couldn't roll it down the aisle (even side on, what's the width of the aisle in a 737?).

She then proceeded to pick it up and carry it above the level of the seat backs to get it down the back.

She shoved the bottom of it in a locker and it became jammed. When she couldn't push it in, or get it back out, she promptly sat down and left it hanging precariously over someone in the aisle seat. Eventually an FA from the rear came forward and extricated it. Where it ended I'll never know.

I would have been putting it squarely up the clacker of the staff at the boarding gate and the CSM.

My solutions:

1. This paying extra for checked baggage crap has to stop.

2. Passengers who check in online should have to put their luggage in the demonstrator unit while their boarding pass is scanned at the gate. Surely the software could identify passengers who have checked in online and flag them, requiring the demostrator unit to be used.

3. Gate staff need to enforce limits - number of bags AND size.

4. Aircraft crew have to enforce limits - FAs, CSMs, and with the unequivocal support of the skipper should it get to that.

Safety reports do diddly-squat, I must have lodged a dozen or more in my time at QF on this very issue. Never got a response.

Typical of modern SMS systems. A complete waste of time (despite what Fort Fumble says).

[Worrals in the wilds]

...how many pax would you have to unload if you put a breathalyser at the gate?Gee that would be nice. Much easier than dragging them kicking and screaming out of the back row on arrival after they've made dicks of themselves for the whole flight.

Gotta say (and feel free to disagree, it's just my experience), the vast majority of disruptive, violent and downright feral pax who I've seen cause problems were either intoxicated/high when boarding, or made themselves that way mid flight, usually by consuming an entire family ration of duty free spirits.

Of course a few unfortunate people are psychotic or deranged and flip out without warning, but I can only recall a handful of them versus a hundred or so drunken yobs, many of whom should never have been allowed to board in the first place. :ugh:

Again, it's not considered important by airline management (I guess most drunks travel without doing more than pissing off their fellow pax, only a few end up getting hauled off in chains) so it's not worth the aggro for the crew or the ground staff, who know they won't get backed up by the airline should said drunken yob turn out to be a cabinet minister or reality TV star. The airline with the guests used to be particularly bad for checking in people who could barely stand; dunno if that's still the case. Of course there's no check in anymore so as long as you can hold it together for the five seconds it takes you to present your boarding pass, you're home and hosed. :rolleyes:

[SLFAussie]

I'm guessing that people posting in this forum haven't seen Ryanair's ruthless efficiency with cabin bags. With the advent of internet check in, gate staff at Ryanair look at each bag and if it looks remotely oversized, the passenger has to put it into the gauge. At many gates every bag ismeasured and Ryanair enforce a strict one bag rule - ladies' handbags included. There are always a handful of people who have oversized bags who inevitably arc upabout having to pay extra for it to go into the hold, but the gate staff are implacable, and security is never far away. It works because Ryanair see hold luggage as a revenue stream, but I suspect also see hold luggage as a barrier to fast turnaround times.

For all of Ryanair's perceived flaws it's punctual, and I've never had a problem stowing my cabin bag.

[Servo]

Went to the states last year. Flew Virgin America and SouthWest domestic a number of times. Both airlines were quite ruthless in regards to overweight and or oversize cabin baggage. Had gate staff at aircraft entry door, removing bags, tagging and into the hold. No if's or but's. Worked well.

We are too politically correct now days, and afraid to upset the passengers.

[indamiddle]

over the last 5 years i have had a checked in bag lost/left behind around one third of the time. when my crew bag was put down the slide in sydney because "the plane is full, we'll put it in the hold and you can collect it in melbourne". it wasn't in melbourne,it was still in sydney at the bottom of the slide with the 5 commercial pax bags. i had to ring sydney to get them to check the slide. our bags turned up 3.5 hours late! i had only one night in mel. now i tell the punters in front of ground staff that if they give up the bag it will not be on the flight. i know this causes a fight between me ground staff and pax but until they stop closing up the hold so early or staff wait so long to put the bags down the slide i will continue this.
i am with the punters on this one all the way.

[ditzyboy]

I completely agree, indamiddle. It almost seems that there is no system in place for luggage to be taken from pax at the gate.

If there is a system, it almost always does not work. Some ground staff appear shocked when I have a pax gate check their bag - some ground staff appear as if they have never had to do it before. They definitely make you feel like you are a rogue flight attendant and the only one ever to have gate checked a bag.

In my experience, Melbourne has (for the last ten years) horrific wait times for bags to turn up on the carousel. I have waited for my bag longer than the flight duration. After being burned a couple of times, I can see why pax push the limits.

We seem to have stamped out those ludicrous Samsonite suit packs with semi-rigid edges. That situation was getting beyond a joke. They would take up a whole locker on a 734. Suit packs with rigid edges are not allowed - but what makes it rigid for the purposes of cabin baggage allowance? I tried for YEARS to get an answer for cabin and airport management - NEVER did get one.

[framer]

It doesn't matter if the pax have to wait an hour or two to get their bags, we make heaps more money than we used to by reducing staff numbers and putting them on part time contracts. Thats all that matters.

[givemewings]

I'd put the 737 aisle at about 18inches... only because I'm 16 inches acros at my widest point (how many boomerangs is that again?) :E

Ditzyboy, I couldn't agree more, those 'suit packs' were seriously taking the p!ss! Even worse are the 'rolling wardrobes' that pax insist are 'suit packs'.... Err. it's got wheels and a handle- it's a bag!!

And WTF is with parents putting all their kids' cr@p up in th o/h when little Timmy's feet don't even overhang the seat. I make them put the 'Trunkie' (fark I hate those things!!!) under the seat in front. They bitch and moan but eventually they do it when I point out that all three kids don't need that space and they have 2 bags over their allowance....

In some cases, the gate checking is actually a good threat... if you want to make someone stow a bag under the seat in front.

I once secured the cabin, only to arrive in the galley and fid that while my back was turned some idiot had put their far too large bag in the galley, just sat it next tot he jumpseat!

End result... no space for it as it was far too large and we had to get the bridge back on. Pax complained no end but luckily we were backed up fully. After said pax called me a c--- in front of the ground staff, it was no wonder his bag never turned up in Adelaide when we did ;)

[fury]

In a Curt Lewis article a couple of days ago, it stated that Boeing were redesigning there overhead bins to fit more in!!!! I think this just a band aid over the problem. Education and enforcement of the rules needs to be given to the public.
For me, I don't want 42 kgs above my head, ready to dong me when things start going pear shaped. If you look at the stats on the number of bins that have failed after an incident and I am sure that everyone would want it all in the hold, where it belongs.
Get the airlines to take control or get CASA in with one of there restructured audit teams to audit flights after they land at Sydney at rush hour. Prosecute the airlines for permitting and the pax for failure to follow directions. Maybe then, crews won't be blamed for allowing this to happen.

[givemewings]

A couple of years back they WERE auditing bags; what, if anything, came of that I have no idea.

Back around 2006, there was a guy in Perth who was excellent at sending people back to the desk if the bags were over 7kg's. Recently when I was there, it seems all security guard at the entrance to the Customes queue is there for is to check a boarding pass and make sure you have a tiny plastic bag...!

[james ozzie]

I am a serial complier and get annoyed at what I see other pax loading.

BUT I think people are smarter than we realise - if you hump your unchecked portmanteau to the gate, it gets blocked and put into the hold, at no charge I understand. Whereas if you check it, you pay. Either way, it goes in the hold. Special Bonus: as a late loaded bag it presumably gets off loaded first.

[Professional Amateur]

BBC - Travel - More space for carry-on bags : Business (http://www.bbc.com/travel/blog/20120309-more-space-for-carry-on-bags):E

[Tableview]

Text of a letter which I sent to BA last week :

I travelled yesterday on BA 718 from LHR to ZRH. The flight was full and I was in the last 10 or so passengers to board. My seat was in row 15, less than half way down the aircraft but my progress and that of others was impeded by people blocking the aisles trying to force their carry-on baggage into the overhead bins. Ahead of row 15, the lockers were crammed to the extent that some could clearly not be closed, and when I got to my row I saw that the space under my seat was fully occupied by my neighbour's backpack. I asked him to remove it and he asked me where I expected him to put it (I was tempted to tell him!), the space under his seat being taken up with his 'computer' bag which was bigger than my standard sized carry on case. He also had a large bag of 'duty free' which was in the overhead and he became aggressive when I suggested he had too much carry on baggage.

It was clear that there was no available space in any of the overheads and a crew member took my single small carry on and stowed it elsewhere for me whilst other people continued shoving and arguing. It was clear that my delightful neighbour was not the only person, by a long way, to have significantly exceeded the allowance.

This is not a particularly unusual situation based on observation over many flights and many years

The crew handled this very well, despite the unpleasant attitude of some passengers, but should not be subjected to this on a daily basis. Nor should passengers like myself who try to respect, and not circumvent, the rules. Why are the clearly publicised limits not enforced? I appreciate that people can bypass the check in counters, but why, as the sole user of T5, are BA not able to get the security and gate staff to enforce the limits?

I should appreciate your comments and more importantly, some evidence of intention to act on this.

[Mr & Mrs Rocketboots]

Flew domestically on our national carrier with the koru on the tail yesterday. From check-in area to the gate, several signs advising that carryon must weigh 7kg or less and will be checked.
Anything to do with the new fare structure recently introduced for domestic?

[YPJT]

SAA had the right idea out of Joburg especially for the flights to certain west African destinations. There would be a ground staff officer with a fist full of luggage tags at the aircraft door. If your bag looked overweight or was too large they would take it off you, no questions asked and give you a baggage receipt.
I saw one or two try and argue but soon changed their tune when it was pointed out that as the hold was still open, their other checked bags could just as easily be removed. :ok:

[Propstop]

Yes; that I saw on every Luanda flight.

[teresa green]

Flew from OOL this morning to NTL, it was bucketing down, and right in front of me was one lady(with small baby attached) one enormous pillow, two little guys both wearing far to big backpacks, the lady was wearing two backpacks, ( I guess one was full of baby stuff). We were left stranded on the front stairs in pouring rain, as the pax up ahead were slowed down by the overhead locker stuffing, I saw the skipper have a quick glance and saw him shake his head, as his pax stood like cattle in the rain. OOL when are you going to be grown up enough to put arms in? I just grabbed one little tyke who was about to go A over H on the slippery stairs. If you are going to be one of the big guys, forget all the pretty gardens and cute coffee shops and get some arms in, it is 2012 last time I looked.

[redsnail]

easyJet enforces the "1 bag" rule. They do use size as a criteria as well. If it's too big or too many, they'll take it and tag it plus make you pay £40 per excess item at the gate.

Baggage allowances | easyJet.com (http://www.easyjet.com/en/planning/baggage.html)

[Cargo744]

I can't tell you how happy I would be to see some of the so called carry on being rejected at the boarding gate. It amazes me what people get away with as carry on baggage. I have had many occasions on dj sitting in row 3 with no one in that row but the overhead locker being full with big bags. It is the first row of economy but it seems that some lodge their oversized bags there then go to their seat further down the aircraft. I was told by a host that it was ground ops issue and not her problem. There lies the problem.

[Animalclub]

easyJet enforces the "1 bag" rule. They do use size as a criteria as well. If it's too big or too many, they'll take it and tag it plus make you pay £40 per excess item at the gate.

Now that makes sense... it would soon stop these problems!!

[framer]

I was told by a host that it was ground ops issue and not her problem. There lies the problem.

OK, how about all Captains brief our pursers that if they come down hard on oversize bags we will back them 100% and we expect them to do that. Maybe we will see some action then?

[givemewings]

Framer, add to that briefing a chat with the ground staff/dispatcher at your gate that any delay due bags will NOT be accepted by the cabin crew and will be assigned a delay code due ground handling.

You will see a difference in their attitude to the bags and helping the CC at the gate, I assure you.

If you can all start doing this, it WILL make a difference. Of course you'll get a 'please explain' for the CSM from the higher ups because of the KPIs but if you lodge a safety report/ICAN regarding the oversized bags being a hazard... they can't exactly punish them now can they? You're just following the rules.

If you are on a B767 it gets a bit more difficult.

Let us know how you get on, minds are curious!!! :ok:

[SpannerTwister]

But for your entertainment may I present, on a not unrelated note..

The crap we put up with getting on and off an airplane - The Oatmeal (http://theoatmeal.com/comics/airplane)

ST

[givemewings]

Actually I think it's closer to this:

Nicoderm Flight Attendant - YouTube (http://youtu.be/vp1QuYNBuZU)

(And the newer, longer version:
Nicoderm Advert Crazy Flight Attendant (Extended Cut) - YouTube (http://youtu.be/ev1ecd02Fd4))

It'd be funny if it weren't so true! I recall having very, very similar urges to do the same with said oversized baggage at one stage.... Actually, I could have thought of one or two better places to put it :E

[sheppey]

With 75 percent of Virgin Australia passengers wearing thongs (the rubber foot one's), and most males wearing board shorts and the occasional black singlet I wonder what the OH&S issues apply to the flight attendants forced to put up with the whiff of stinky feet? Suggest a surcharge on the ticket if you want to come aboard wearing thongs? :ok: