Married Quarters for the axe

[ALM In Waiting]

From today's Times:

Deirdre Hipwell, Deborah Haynes
Last updated February 27 2012 12:01AM
Married soldiers living in Army accommodation will be forced out of their homes under cost-cutting proposals being considered by the Ministry of Defence.
The move, which would lead to thousands of people from the Armed Forces being driven into the commercial property market, is part of a plan to reduce Services accommodation under a “New Employment Model”.
It indicates a potential shift away from the tradition of encouraging soldiers to move with ease around the country and overseas with their spouses and children.
Subsidised military housing for those with families is a career-long entitlement and has been referred to as a “staunch pillar” of the military covenant that the coalition has pledged to uphold. The MoD is discussing ending the right to a home after eight years of service.
One former head of the Army said that he understood the need to reduce the bill for accommodation, but that additional funds must be made available to buy or rent private property with ease.
If not, the MoD risked creating a system of “weekly boarders”. “It is not the right way to be. We have enough forced separation through deployment and training exercises,” General Lord Dannatt said.
Morale in the Armed Forces is already low after thousands of redundancies.
A final deadline has yet to be agreed, but The Times understands that cutting the housing entitlement to around eight to ten years of service is regarded as the preferred option. Afterwards, military families would have to find accommodation themselves.
Major-General Patrick Cordingley, a retired commander, said that the proposal would place an additional strain on the military, particularly when people were sent to fight overseas.
“It would be a bit of a let down,” he said. “Soldiers who get married are expecting to be relieved of the worry of where they are going to live while they are serving. I think [being made to find their own accommodation] is something that soldiers will find difficult.”
Married serving personnel or those in a civil partnership are offered subsidised quarters to make a long-term career in the Army as attractive as possible. The guarantee creates tight-knit military communities as well as producing a flexible workforce.
The new proposal would create what one officer described as a “postcode lottery”, with some postings, such as those around London, particularly undesirable because of the high cost of living, unless the loss of subsidised housing was matched with an increase in wage.
Captain Doug Beatie, a Military Cross recipient winner who retired from the regular Army two years ago but remains a TA member, said: “I don’t think it will go down very well. It is a cost cutting effort and . . . There will be no added incentive for the soldier to stay in the Army if he has to go and pay for private accommodation.”
The mobility of soldiers made it difficult for them to buy or rent a property in one location, Captain Beattie said, noting that he had lived in 14 different married quarters during his career. “If I am a soldier and I get married, one of the great plus points is you get accommodation. If they are saying to me you are not going to get accommodation until I organise it for myself, that will be incredibly difficult on myself, my wife and my family.”
Plans to create so-called super-garrisons across the country would provide stability for regiments, and could encourage personal home ownership, but individuals would still be expected to travel, including to the front line. The Army is the most mobile division of the Armed Forces, with the highest proportion — at least 60 per cent of personnel — living in Service accommodation.
The MoD’s family housing bill, however, has risen annually. It stands at more than £318 million a year, making a change in the system inevitable at a time when the military is under huge pressure to reduce expenditure.
The size of the Army is due to contract from just over 100,000 to 82,000 by the end of the decade, but military planners must still find housing for 20,000 troops stationed in Germany who are scheduled to return to Britain over the same period.
An MoD spokesman said: “The New Employment Model is looking at a range of measures connected with provision of support to our Service personnel from 2020, including accommodation. A report is due for consideration by the Defence Board in the summer of 2012.”
A survey by the Army Families Federation showed that 89 per cent of soldiers who responded thought that Service accommodation should be provided for the entirety of their military career.
Julie McCarthy, head chief executive of the federation, said military housing was the only way families could hope to spend quality time together given the demands of army life. Giving evidence to a parliamentary inquiry into Service accommodation, she said soldiers considered subsidised housing a “staunch pillar” of the military covenant that the coalition Government had promised to uphold.
“They see it as very much a huge part of their terms and conditions of service, and putting aside everything else that is being offered, that for them is the big thing,” she said.

[newt]

WOW! Yet another blow to morale.

Why on earth do the troops have to put up with this?

The cost saving looks very small when looked at in the overall defence expenditure. One has to wonder if there is enough single mens accommodation left to accommodate all the commuters and what will be the cost of home to duty travel?

Scrap Trident and give the boys and girls decent accommodation:ok:

Oh and I bet this will not trouble more senior mates living in the most expensive accommodation!!

[green granite]

Yet the MOD can afford to pay their staff a £40 million bonus. :mad::ugh::ugh:

[Jimlad1]

"Yet the MOD can afford to pay their staff a £40 million bonus"

Two minor points - one, the MOD is the title of the Department which encompasses the three services and the CS. Your thing should read 'the civil service'


Secondly - its not a bonus, its the non consolidated element of the pay award, payment of which is designed to reduce the long term CS pension bill. A subtle, but very important difference. The CS didnt ask for it, dont want it, and would lose it tomorrow if they could. It exists purely as a means to save money.

[Mach Two]

Great, so do we get to pay for our moves on posting now too? I am furious about the whole accommodation thing. What with this, pensions, allowances and rubbish admin support, it's now time to leave.

[earswentpop]

There is a whiff about this. If it comes to pass, as described, it would be a slam-dunk for Annington Homes. I'd be interested to exclude the possibility that any of the decision-makers or key influencers have any association with AH.

At the practical level I can't see how this can work. In a 27 year period I had 18 house moves, only 2 of which were of my choosing.

This all began with Mr Portillo who tried to stump up £1.5Bn for a pre-election tax cut bribe back in '97. Thanks, mate. Cameron needs a Clarkson. Yes, in front of his family. We could mop up the mess with the Covenant.

[green granite]

Two minor points - one, the MOD is the title of the Department which encompasses the three services and the CS. Your thing should read 'the civil service'

It comes out of MOD funding.

Secondly - its not a bonus, its the non consolidated element of the pay award, payment of which is designed to reduce the long term CS pension bill. A subtle, but very important difference. The CS didnt ask for it, dont want it, and would lose it tomorrow if they could. It exists purely as a means to save money.


Ah! so the Telegraph is lying then:

"One senior civil servant was awarded an £85,831 bonus on top of their six-figure salary - at the same time as members of the armed forces have been subject to a two-year pay freeze and 20,000 are to be made redundant.

The bonuses have been paid since April last year and have seen more than 55,000 officials awarded extra payments for their performance - out of a payroll of 83,000."

The rest of the article (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9090668/Ministry-of-Defence-civil-servant-awarded-86000-bonus.html) is equally damaging, but you recon it's not true so that's ok then.

If it's awarded for performance it's a bonus.

[Whenurhappy]

The seeds for this train crash were sown in 1994-1996 with the disposal of the majority of 'MQ' housing stock in England (c 46,000 units) to Nomura Bank. The majority have been leased back on particularly equitable terms (for the owner, that is) but the contract is up for remenal in 2021. In planning (and fiscal) terms, that's not too far away!

The cost the re-lease this housing stock will be crippling so there has been a lot of work done over the last few years to think the MOD out of this problem. One suggestion was to offer a grant at a fixed point (eg 5 years, let's say) to encourage SP to buy their own places 'outside the wire'. However (and I recall posting this on an earlier thread), some excellent modelling was conducted by DASA that mapped the post 2013 airfield lay-down affordability, The result was that some SP would have enormous commutes and with some more modelling, the number of additional deaths from RTAs could be predicted with deadly accuracy.

Furthermore, when this was PTT's with the Treasury, it was made quite clear that there would be no double dipping; ie, if SP took the money to live outside the wire, that same SP would have to pay the 'commercial rate' to live in Messes and Barracks if they became week-day bachelors. Moreover, this policy didn't account fro the 25% of RAF Personnel employed outside the RAF's TLB - anywhere from Northern Norway to, well, New Zealand.

The Army did some interesting work with Mixed Housing in Colchester, proposing 3 storied town houses that could be occupied by singlies and small families, however it was felt after a bit of testing (ie proposing the idea to the troops, rather than in the middle-class minds of the officers devising this scheme) it wouldn't work. SLAM - which has delivered high-quality accn to single personnel (and I mean proper SLAM, not some of this outrageously expensive and craven PFIs) was bitterly opposed by the Army, but eventually accepted through gritted teeth, largely driven by legislation, critical reports from the Adult Learning Inspectorate and the fall out from Deepcut.

Similarly (and my figues are 2-3 years old) the Army was opposed to any recognition of de facto partners, simply because of the impact on housing provision. It was assessed that the Army would need an additional 18,000 SFQs to meet this requirment, quite apart from the 15,000 bratwurst eaters due home during this decade (plus their snivelling primark-clad children). Quite a bit of work was done to have SP recognised as Key Workers, so that they could benefit in various sweat-equity and rent-to-buy schemes. Sadly most of this is in the South east and there are many more applicants than properties.

Bottom line (and we made the move 15 years ago) - get your own house/flat/caravan.

[Jimlad1]

GG - At the risk of going off target here, let me explain the so called bonus. The MOD does its pay deals for civilians in three year tranches, and the last one was signed up to in 2008, to cover 08-11.

About 12 years ago, to reduce the overrall pensions bill, the MOD was forced by HMT to siphon off a wodge of cash that would normally have been included in the pay award and instead of paying it as payrises, pay it instead as a non consolidated 'performance award'.

This meant that at my level, instead of getting a £500 pay rise, which then added to my annual salary each year, and in time would contribute to my final pension, I instead received a taxable grant each year of roughly £500 (in reality far lower as I was more junior back then), which did not add to my salary, and did not count towards my pension. The result is that my annual salary is £5-£6000 below where it would have been, and my pension is also impacted.

So, its not a bonus - it never has been a bonus, its not coming out of additional funding, its coming out of same wage pot of money that pays all the CS salaries. Its a very devious means of saving money, and has also managed to cause immense PR damage as people associate 'bonus' with fat boy bankers rewards.

The specific DT example is of an SCS, who is on completely different T&C of employment, and also the DT has a long standing and well known agenda of reporting a very interesting interpretation of anything to do with the MOD CS, and in particular trying to make out that anything CS get or do should be shown in the worst possible light.

If it makes you feel better, there is no current pay deal in place, and there is to my knowledge no performance award being offered this year.

[Courtney Mil]

Good explanation, Jimlad. It kind of works like flying pay in that increases current income and the individual's tax bill, but isn't reflected in the pension.

[Ken Scott]

And yet some families are able to claim enough housing benefit to fund an equivalent 7 figure mortgage to live in the Boroughs of Chelsea & Kensington...

Benefits families could pay off £1m mortgage - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/9107504/Benefits-families-could-pay-off-1m-mortgage.html)

Almost 100 families are raking in enough housing benefit to fund a £10 million mortgage, raising fresh doubts over the Government’s cap, figures released yesterday show.
Some 30 families are receiving £1,500 a week — three times what they would be earning on a national average wage — to pay their rent while another 60 are receiving up to £5,000 a month, according to the Department for Work and Pensions.
All the claimants, who would be able to fund a seven-figure mortgage at those rates, live in the London boroughs of Kensington and Chelsea or Westminster.

In total 130 families are given more than £1,000 a week,including 80 who receive at least £1,100 a week, according to figures obtained under the Freedom of Information Act.

Last year, another family who fled war-ravaged Somalia exchanged a modest home in Coventry for a £2million house in West Hampstead, north-west London. Saeed Khaliif, 49, who was unemployed, was able to sign what was believed to be a £2,000 a week lease for the six – bedroom property despite having no connection with their new area.

It does seem to be in comparison rather shabby treatment for servicemen who will have to find private accommodation on postings not necessarily of their choosing.

[Blacksheep]

Away back in the seventies, when we still had Married Quarters as a matter of course at all stations, there was always a shortage of MQs and a long wait for an allocation when posted to a new station. That meant "weekly boarding" on camp and a long drive home when off duty. We spent months in this situation, the last time being seven months wait at Northolt while the family remained at Brize Norton under "60 Days Notice". This was the main driver for my own departure from the Royal Air Force: the disruption to family life was simply no longer acceptable. The Royal Navy never had a proper Married Quarters provision and my mother and I lived with my grandmother for several years, while Dad only came home when he had leave. Inevitably, he left when his 12 year engagement was done, even though he loved the actual job. It seems to me that nothing has changed and the MOD simply doesn't give a toss about loyalty. There's plenty more innocent/gullible (and perhaps more importantly, still single) young folks out there to replace those who leave. . .

[orca]

It would be nice to hear a coherent argument about this. Something along the lines of:

'The AFPRB is no longer able to trot out lines such as MQs and Pensions were taken into account - so have been forced to recommend a rather large pay increase.'

But you can't do that and cut costs.

[green granite]

If it makes you feel better, there is no current pay deal in place, and there is to my knowledge no performance award being offered this year.

So the whole of the Telegraph's article is a bunch of made up falsehoods and the comments of The MoD who said it was impossible to rein in bonuses this year were never said.
Under a three year agreement made by the last Government performance awards were part of the total wage bill paid out naturally, it is just that a proportion of pay was spent on a performance basis.

Somebody somewhere is spinning methinks, who though I'm not sure.

[Red Line Entry]

Green Granite,

Don't swallow the rubbish that the DT comes out with. The kernel of truth that should give you an indication of what's really important is the size of "the average award, which is taxable, was £677".

So keep the CS pay low, carve off a bit of it and call it a 'bonus' to reduce the pension and you can paint them as money-grubbing chislers till the cows come home.

I'm military but I've got a huge amount of respect for the CS as a whole. Yes, there are some wasters but that's true of some Service personnel too. Most of them do a bl00dy good job for not a lot of dosh.

[A2QFI]

Plus I might add, the bonuses are not paid to all CS staff. People are written up and put into a "pool" of similar grade staff but not comparable employment. Last time I went through this ritual humiliation I was in a pool of 8 which included 3 of my work colleagues, a met man, an H&E adminstrator, 2 people from Abbey Wood Procurement and a lecturer from a Staff College. Eight years ago BTW.

[FJ2ME]

Guys can you take your squabble about CS bonuses to a new thread please and stop diluting the impact that this enormous change to all of terms and conditions would otherwise have?

This is precisely the sort of change that saves pennies and changes the face of the Forces forever. Never mind trying to keep experienced people in, why on earth would anyone join these days is starting to beggar belief. PAYD, DII are just 2 of the ducks nibbling us to death today and now you want to evict us, stump up circa £1500 a month to find equivalent Accn and with no accompanying increase in pay, do Fu@£ off! We need some active representation in parliament pronto or this will kill HM Forces in the long term...

[Kreuger flap]

Can I be the first in the queue to buy one of those delectable properties in Carterton please? They must worth at least £2.45

[Jimlad1]

But does housing REALLY matter? Time for me to play devils advocate here - please bear that in mind when replying, I'm just trying to explore this in a bit more depth.

The assumption seems to be that this will kick off in about 8 years time, so in line with the FR2020 assumptions, and also post at least one SDSR which will doubtless see manpower shrink further, and also about the time the 2020 SDSR is kicking off, which will see even further cuts.

For years provision of housing has been a reasonable provision of service -as MOD notes in its news blog, the current employment model dates back 40 years, and the deal has been that people had limited mobility back then, and could expect regular postings across the world, and it wasn't always easy to find the means to subsidise a second career for the wifes / husbands. Additionally, people married a lot younger, and had kids far earlier. So, historically provision of cheap housing made sense as a means of encouraging people to stay in when they had a family to look after, and they were travelling across the globe.

In todays society, and particularly in 8-10 years time the forces are going to be far more sedentary - an RAF of 6-10 main bases, plus support stations seems a not unreasonable assumption. We will be looking for supporting a smaller force of people, who will by and large be in their early twenties and thirties, with a smaller pool in late thirties onwards. This manpower pool will probably be mainly single / relationship based, and not necessarily as heavily marriage based. Peoples expectations change, and less people will probably marry at 21-22 and then expect a service quarter for life. Additionally, the massively increased social mobility through cars and easy transport, plus the realisation that many partners need a career too, means that I can see there being less demand for service family housing, as people have kids later on, and don't settle down.

So, you have a more socially mobile population, and a workforce who are less likely to be married in future. Therefore, the need for MQs diminishes. Add to this the realistion that with static bases, the number of Hong Kong - Germany - Cyprus - UK moves are going to massively reduce in number, and suddenly you have the ability to have a fairly static movement plot, in which settling down and weekly commuting becomes more feasible.

I can see a new model emerging whereby MOD says that it will provide top quality singly accommodation, encouraging people to move back into messes (and in the process reinvigorating mess life, which currently suffers through far too many people choosing to live out). Then service members can chose to maintain a home at their own location of choice, and commute weekly to said location. It reinvigorates the unit as a hub, and means families can settle down. Retain a limited pool for housing for people who go to special places, or overseas, or remote locations, but make clear that for 95% of HM Forces, their private lives are their business. What MOD will provide is the ability for you to stay cheaply on site if you wish to do so, or let you live off at your own cost.

I think the future mainly single / loosely attached workforce is less concerned about married quarters than our predecessors. Even now, many of my peers chose not to live in quarters, but weekly commute and either live in a mess or flat.

As for why would anyone join? For the reason people have joined since time immemorial - adventure, excitement, good comrades and lots of fun. People dont at 21 worry about cheap housing or PAYD or DII - thats the sort of thing you get cynical about over time, but everyone is cynical about some aspect of their workplace experience. I'd argue this won't hit recruitment, although it may hit retention if brought in too soon.

Personally this could be an interesting move which could have unforseen and hugely positive consequences for Mess life (and bars)...

[A2QFI]

Some CS live in FMA so they have an interest in this. It wasn't a squabble but we'll stick to the FMA aspect, speaking personally

[NutLoose]

Perhaps replace the quarters with an MP's second home allowance... The whole system is driven by political short sightedness, sell the stock off to generate funds in the short term knowing full well that you will be out of power before the issue comes to ahead and it will be someone else's problem, and stuff the poor sods it will effect.
At this rate ITV will be hosting the new series My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding RAF Edition. They are reducing the services to a bunch of pikies.

[Always a Sapper]

Jimlad, a fair enough argument, but throw the cost of fuel to get you home into the hat and I don't think there will be as many takers as you think.

With Dieso fast heading to £1.50/ltr now, just what is it going to be in say 8 years time? Or are we all going to be using public transport or cycling everywhere?

[Scuttled]

If this were part of a "joined up thinking policy" it could work.

American forces do not have a large stock of housing for their many hundreds of thousands of personnel, they instead give their personnel a housing allowance each month based on rank, time served and other factors.

With our reduced numbers of personnel, this could work well for us. The housing headache disappears. Our people rent locally. If you buy, when you move on it is normally possible to rent your conveniently located house to another serviceman. Close a base and it doesn't matter. Relocating personnel with insufficient housing available from Annington is no longer a problem.

Even at a nominal £500 per month, I am guessing this would be cheaper than paying Annington and administering the rental FMQs.

The problem, clearly, is with the way we are treated in the uk with continuously eroding terms of service. Even if we started off as I outlined on nominally £500 per month, you just know that in 10 years time it would be the same rate or lower and taxed into insignificance.

FMQs would be a distant memory and the allowance would quietly fizzle out. Shame for the government and us really.

[BEagle]

At this rate ITV will be hosting the new series My Big Fat Gypsy Wedding RAF Edition. They are reducing the services to a bunch of pikies.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Bow_top.jpg

Airmens' Married Quarter of the future?

With Dieso fast heading to £1.50/ltr now

Chap, diseasel is not an officer's fuel.

[Scuttled]

"Caravan?"

"You were lucky. We had to live in a cardboard box int middle of t'road. We used to dream of a caravan."

.........sorry, assuming nobody has got round to this shameless plagiarism yet this week?

:}

[Uncle Ginsters]

They're surely missing something here:

By suggesting that there's an entitlement to MQs until 8-10yrs service what they don't realise is that now everyone will be in MQs!

Why? Because everyone, on serving 5 yrs or so, will have smashed through the bright-eyed phase, realised what the military is really about, and subsequently left at their 6-yr option...QED, there's no-one left with more than 6 years under their belt and everyone needs an MQ :D

[Grimweasel]

I agree with the earlier posts. Why stay in a military where any benefits to serving Queen and Country and being stripped away by successive Governments intent on saving their own skin and that of the financial industry?

As for the 1000 odd vermin that are allowed to claim benefits allowing to pay for million pound mortgages - they should be rehoused immediately. Stuff like this makes my blood boil. I read last week of a 5th generation of benefit claimants that refuse to work because the state has continually provided for these leeches. Until we get a government with balls and an opposition in true opposition (ie both parties not occupying the same central political ground) there will be little change. Time to the conservatives to lean back swiftly to the right and eradicate the leeches that are bleeding this country dry.

Roll on Jun 12... tonight's sub standard PAYD meal in the Officers' Mess that I wouldn't feed to my cat, along with the transit accommodation with no heating, plastic mattress and no hot water was the final nail, along with the housing news today. Military Covenant my ar$e. Too bitter to stay. :mad:

[NutLoose]

In the Nutloose world you would get full benefits for 2 years, at the 2 year point they would cease.. Housing benefits included.
You would be given the opportunity to recieved basic food coupons to buy my meals at feeding kitchens and to avoid cheating of the system, I would make the coupons system reliant on having a chip installed under the skin to identify the person to the coupons. If you can chip a dog, a scrounging work shy layabout should be no problem, And for those that moan about it, let them support them

Ok the latter may be extreme. The only way the system can survive is to stop the drain and to stop the leeches feeding on it... The yanks did similar to the first part and 1/3rd of people found a job overnight

[glojo]

Should we also perhaps look at the bigger picture of this crazy suggestion.

Royal Marines\Army

When a Commando Units deploys to somewhere like Afghanistan they leave behind their loved ones and it is these people that are left to raise the family and also WORRY about their husbands\partners\wives\girlfriends\etc etc etc.... These people are left in an empty house and usually in constant fear of that dreaded knock on the door. If they are surrounded by other wives who are in exactly the same position then there is immediate support. Married Quarters are usually extremely close to the base of the relevant unit which also means support is only a few paces away. If we do away with married quarters then we do away with this VERY close knit community which in times of need are assets that no amount of money can buy.

Do we seriously believe that any senior politician gives two hoots about the welfare of those that serve our country?

[Courtney Mil]

Nutloose, some may say a bit harsh, but I cannot fault your idea. Might help if we kicked out a few people that shouldn't be here.

Glojo, absolutely spot-on, shipmate!

[A2QFI]

Even one hoot would be welcome!

[greenhaven]

Let me introduce my serving military ‘friend’ Fred..

Fred got his mortgage just before the economy went breasts aloft and probably, with hindsight, overstretched himself (he included Flying Pay as part of his income, but everyone does that, right? :ugh: ). Unfortunately, he has now lost that (extended higher rate) flying pay – almost instantly – due to a medical downgrade, but thankfully has been allowed to branch change within his Service for the remainder of his full-term commission as Fred still has a broad depth of experience both in and out of the cockpit and actually quite likes the job. He still has got a bit of equity in his house, but after making tentative noises to his mortgage company, he won’t be in a position to get a similar mortgage/re-mortgage, what with him now 25% per annum worse off. After lots of cutting back, getting Mrs Fred back out to work and child in nursery, he reckons he can just about cope.

So say, for arguments sake, he gets posted to Northwood in a few years.

Renting his house out in the SW won’t cover rent in the Northwood area and (without knowing the MQ situation up there now, let alone post any changes) he wouldn’t be entitled under the new scheme to get an MQ anyway. So, he commutes from the SW to London, filling up at £2/litre but the frozen-since-2010 GYH payments don’t come near to covering the fuel on his 14 year old Mondeo (which now also costs £1000 per year to insure) he’s out of pocket again. So he begins staying at NWD on a fairly permanent basis and Mrs Fred decides that the nice young builder who lives across the road is a better bet than an absent, increasingly poor husband and father. Right, sod this for a game of sailors, says Fred, and 7 clicks later finds he has 12 months to run and starts looking for a job in a market already saturated with the smart military types with his skillset who were forced out or left under SDSR 2 years earlier. At least he has no flying pay to lose on PVR because that went 2 years previously anyway :ok:

So, nice military pension to look forward to – Fred is glad he remained on AFPS75. Unfortunately, this has to be split between the first Ex-Mrs Fred and child No. 1 (sorry, Fred didn’t mention that earlier ;) ) and the second now-also-ex-Mrs Fred and child No. 2. Oh well, he wants to do right by his kids so fair enough. At least the gratuity should help. Unfortunately, after the Budget of 2012 (or 2013) it’s now taxed at 40%, and is also split between the ex-wives. Because he straddles 2 pension schemes (entirely administered on JPA) it has become so complicated that it now takes SPVA an average of 14 months to sort out and commence payment. He must therefore sell the house. Unfortunately, the housing market is still stagnant and that previous equity is now at best a big fat zero but likely negative so any money he walks away with either goes on repaying the mortgage company the outstanding amount (enforced by the Family Court because he was awarded a gratuity) or the ex-wives’ (and their respective new partners') housing needs. So, after nearly 20 years of Service he ends up with nothing, living rough and drinking cans of Special Brew stolen from the Co-op :{

So HMT, for Fred’s sake, please don’t tax our gratuities or remove in toto our FMQ entitlement – the lesson here is that personal circumstances aren’t always as straightforward as they appear and a blanket removal or instigation of a mandatory 8 year cut-off for MQ entitlement may not suit all!

[Victor Inox]

A job in the armed forces is not the usual 9 - 5 job. As others have pointed out, servicemen are deployed overseas and need to know that their families are in safe and comfortable accommodation.

Many of today's youths are physically and mentally unfit for the armed forces (besides the fact that many are unfit for any form of employment). It's no longer a case of wanting the best - but of needing the best. There are few jobs with such a high risk of losing your life - and the package must reflect this.

[A2QFI]

A tiny aspect of this dire scenario is £1000 to insure a Mondeo! Where does Fred live and/or has he got a carp driving history?

[NutLoose]

If indeed he has a licence in the first place, a lot of people may not have one.

[greenhaven]

Just to clarify - Fred's predicament is an extrapolation of current trends - think 'Ghost of Christmas Future'. He tells me his last insurance bill was £300 though, and only has 3 points...

[A2QFI]

That's a relief - for the moment!

[ukmil]

One would assume, due to the nature of the 2 year posting for most of our commissioned folk, this rule may well be waivered for those.

[Hovermonkey]

Sad to say that this is just another nail in the coffin. Most of my colleagues and I are now seriously looking into leaving as the Ts and Cs of this so called 'career' gradually get eroded. No realistic promotion prospects until at least 35, pension getting worse, FRI being axed (probably), drastic reductions in flying hours (a struggle to keep current as it is) and now MQ entitlement going. If my peers and I are a microcosm of people of similar time done/experience levels in the UK's Flying Arms, MOD are seriously going to be looking at a big experience gap after we've all left in a couple of years and the more experienced guys have jumped at the end of their careers. There is no longer a reason to stay in this job.

[Widger]

You cost too much
Your SFQ costs too much
Your SLA costs too much
Your allowances cost too much
They dont want you
They want you to leave to save money
Wake up, smell the coffee, leave before the rush!

[Melchett01]

You cost too much
Your SFQ costs too much
Your SLA costs too much
Your allowances cost too much
They dont want you
They want you to leave to save money
Wake up, smell the coffee, leave before the rush!

We're cheaper than Ursula Brennan and the politicians. Can't we just take a few of them out and shoot them to save a few quid that way?

[NutLoose]

I am looking forward to the day when the Station Commander at Brize Norton who will be a 1* at that stage is told he isn't entitled to a quarter because he has been in the RAF for too long. Can I be there, please please please?

Given it's location on camp would be ironic if it was sold off and the Civi that bought it started bitching about the noisy aircraft... I remember when to overcome the single accommodation shortage they stuck airmen in some of the empty quarters on camp.. All went swimmingly until the RAF got the first bills in, the guys had the heating on 24/7 and controlled the temperature at a comfortable level by opening the windows.... Oddly enough they found accommodation for them pretty rapidly.

[NutLoose]

There is an epetition running, see


Say NO! to plans to cut service Family accomadation entitlement to 8yrs/10 years serivce, - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/30448)

[LFFC]

Guy Hands set for £3.5bn Army housing deal (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/constructionandproperty/9684591/Guy-Hands-set-for-3.5bn-Army-housing-deal.html) 9:18PM GMT 16 Nov 2012

Guy Hands is poised to agree a £3.5bn deal with Japanese bank Nomura to take control of Annington Homes, which manages almost 60,000 Army houses in the UK.

Mr Hands, who runs private equity firm Terra Firma, originally bought Annington in 1996 when he worked for Nomura.

Annington manages 57,434 army homes – known as the married quarters estate – which makes the company one of the largest private owners of residential property in the UK.

Since 1996, when the Ministry of Defence sold the “lease and leaseback” assets for just £1.66bn, Nomura is thought to have made almost £2bn in profit.

Terra Firma has been managing the company for Nomura, but it is understood that Mr Hands has wanted to take full control for the past six months.

Terra Firma investors have agreed to pay £500m for the asset together with £500m of new debt to be raised through a high yield bond organised by Barclays. That £1bn will go to Nomura, while £2.5bn of existing debt in Annington will be transferred across.

Since the Annington deal was first done, the company has made almost £2.3bn in rental income and more than £3bn in sales from the houses, which have been auctioned off.

The original deal gave the MoD a 58pc rental discount, but has been criticised because it was fixed to house prices that have risen exponentially since 1996.

[A2QFI]

SFAIK Annington have an interest in ALL military homes, not just the Army ones

[essexlad]

Awesome! I think id rather PVR at 8 years and find a better job than be forced to pay an extortionate price to live in some s***hole just because its within a reasonable distance to camp.

[Stuff]

If subsidised* housing is removed will we all be getting an increase in basic wage to cover the reduction in benefits?



* I've lived in some utter dumps that aren't worth £1 a month never mind the grade 4 charge. It's never been really clear if I'm subsiding the MoD or the other way around.

[glad rag]

Shocking indeed.
Not much to say apart from having been on det and had word from family that sig other was very ill it distracted ones mind to say the least, service advice was ****.
And this was a double generation service family, on both sides, who were frightened by the sudden lack of interest from those they thought were on there side as part of the big family.

Nothing like the worry about of those at home to totally screw an individuals performance on Ops when all the other stresses are pitched in.

:mad:Carp.

[VinRouge]

Isn't this part of the new employment model? The deal being, you get stability (read longer tours with guaranteed no move) in return for no sfa no cea etc. personally, if I could guarantee 12 years in the same location I would be happy to move out of mq's

[Twon]

Vin,

The problem being is that past experience shows that the benefits (SFA) will be removed long before the changes (stability, tour length etc) materialise, if they ever make an appearance. You could say this is a cynical view point but is often borne out by the reality in all MOD change programs.

Twon

[Skeleton]

I love this site. It's heartening to know that people think this crack pot idea will work. It's even more heartening to be told this will work by civilians who would rather curl up and die than move more than two yards away from the semi they've lived in all there lives.
I bought two houses during my 27 years of service. On both occasions I contacted the posting guru and was assured that I was going nowhere for a long while. On both occasions I was promoted within six months and shipped miles away. Before you ask mr cs, I would have been moved even if I had turned the promotions down.

This idea is barking.

[SOSL]

Daily Telegraph 22 Nov 2012 - Page 5

"Troops may use pensions to buy homes"

An article, obviously based on a MOD press release, which sort of suggests that this may be a benefit to service persons.

"The Defence Secretary suggested that changes could be made in military pay rules to help more service personnel buy properties"

Doesn't say why they would need to!

"Part of the new model for military careers would involve more personnel buying their own homes, instead of living in MOD accommodation"

Doesn't say that MOD accommodation would be withdrawn!

Transparent spin by the MOD Office of (Dis)Information and sadly swallowed, hook, line and sinker, by a gullible newspaper reporter.

Rgds SOS

[Pontius Navigator]

SOSL, true.

Now it may work for an army battalion based at some ex-RAF base or historic barrack - shades of regional recruiting again.

The same applies to RAF aircrew on a single role type such as AT.

Many groundcrew have been static for many years - policy was no posting unless to fill a vacancy.

But while not moving units I would love to see how the posters can fill billets without moving people.

[Backwards PLT]

I think the gist is (if I read it right) that they won't force anyone out of MQs but they will encourage you with stick (increased prices) and carrot (large loan for sod all) and much increased tour lengths for most. I know I'd much rather live in my own house but certainly can't afford the move costs every 2.5 years.

Very disappointed by the total lack of detail in the NEM announcements today.

[Pontius Navigator]

It would work for units but not for people in the units. Two of the sqns I was on moved stations and there would have been no way that any new policy could have avoided that. Honestly I can't see how they can avoid that in future either.

It is all very well coming up with the future basing strategy but ultimately that will never be set in bricks and mortar.

[Doctor Cruces]

Cynical ploy for Dave's Tory mates to make loads more moolah from everyone else. Who can afford to rent in London an a junior ranks pay? Cynical ploy to make people leave before a full service pension will be paid.

It stinks to high heaven. Covenant...yeah, right!!

Doc C

[muttywhitedog]

CAS/CinC's/AOC's outer office would have a pretty different make-up if this was introduced, as you'd be hard pushed to find any SAC admin, chef, steward or driver that could afford to live in London or High Wycombe.

In fact, you'd probably have to shut almost every base in southern england or make it a £35,000+ pa posting only - £18,000 pa will not get you a flat, let alone a family home.

Barking idea.

[Tricorn]

The base area housing allowance (or whatever the MoD would call it) would have to be very generous for postings 'down south'!

[whowhenwhy]

£35K+pa? It that's all you're pulling in you' need about a £250k+ deposit if you wanted to buy anywhere near High Wycombe.

[Lima Juliet]

You need about a £250k+ deposit to buy anywhere near High Wycombe

What tosh, here is a new housing development near Aylesbury. About 15 miles from RAF High Wycombe, about 20-25 minutes commute. There are even cheaper places to be bought in Aylesbury and High Wycombe (although they're old victorian terraced properties and would need a lot of work).

New homes in Aylesbury - New Berry Vale - New Homes by Taylor Wimpey (http://www.taylorwimpey.co.uk/newhomes/south+midlands/newberryvale/)

As a 1st time buyer you would only need a £5k deposit for some of the smaller properties...

Taylor Wimpey South Midlands - Firstbuy (http://www.twfirstbuy.co.uk/)

LJ :ok:

[TheWizard]

Have you been to Aylesbury recently??! :eek:

[Lima Juliet]

Aylesbury is no worse than other local towns that you might be based near

Wittering - Peterborough
High Wycombe - High Wycombe
Shrivenham - Swindon
Henlow - Bedford or Letchworth
Odiham - Basingstoke or Aldershot
Coningsby - Boston

There are plenty of rubbish market towns/cities out there...

LJ

[muttywhitedog]

Ok if you have no kids, but the price shoots up for a 3-bed house.

[Lima Juliet]

The average 3 bed in Aylesbury cost ~£200k (the average 2 bed ~£120-140k). The average Cpl earns about £30k pa. A mortgage company will normally loan to about 4.5 times single salary with a £40k deposit so our Cpl would be £25k short. However, for those with working wives earning another £20k and a loan of 3.5 times joint salary and we start to get towards the right numbers:

3.5 times £50k joint salary = £175k loan maximum with a £25k deposit (which is 87.5% loan to value)

The only question is, where does a Cpl with a young family find £25k? That would be where a scheme would need to provide help - which is my understanding of what is being considered for the New Employment Model and the loss of SFA after a set amount of time. Also, I believe that options to pay slightly more for those not entitled to SFA is also being looked at.

This is from the MOD's NEM frequently asked questions:
10. Will Service provided accommodation be available in the future?
Yes. Service provided accommodation will remain an important part of the offer for those people that need it. However, overall, the NEM programme seeks to maximise stability, support personal choice and reduce the dependency on publicly supported accommodation. Consequently, options for a different approach to the provision of accommodation are being explored, one of which includes improved financial assistance for personnel to buy a home.

For a Sgt, who earns £35k then the sums are better - that extra £5k makes the first single income example affordable.

LJ

[Lima Juliet]

I would imagine the NEM scheme to be something like this...

Catalyst Housing Group, the Government-appointed HomeBuy agent for Berkshire, Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire, has launched a new scheme which offers first-time buyers up to 50 per cent of the cost of their home.

MyChoice HomeBuy will be available for households with annual incomes between £20,000 and £60,000.

Buyers will pay 1.75 per cent interest on the half paid for by the scheme.

The buyer will have to take out a conventional mortgage on the other 50 per cent.

The scheme is aimed at public sector key workers such as health professionals, teachers, firefighters and emergency service employees.

Which would be affordable for the average Cpl and at the end of it they would be better off than just renting a quarter. :ok:

PS. Just done the sums for the £200k example in this scheme and you would pay £145/month for the interest only equity portion and about another £500/month on an £85k mortgage. Total £645/month. Now if the MOD increase the wages by £400/month to cover for the loss of quarters (a pay increase of £600 before tax for a Cpl) then the Cpl would be better off with a house they own, the MOD would not have to pay for SFA upkeep and SSFA when no quarters are available and possibly everyone would be a winner?

[Party Animal]

LJ,

You were making sense until you got to this bit:


Now if the MOD increase the wages by £400/month to cover for the loss of quarters (a pay increase of £600 before tax for a Cpl)


But I guess the effects of last nights waccy baccy were starting to kick in as you got to the end of your note? Or are you looking ahead to the year 2035? ;)

[Lima Juliet]

No waccy baccy across my Movember effort, my friend.

In Feb 12 it was reported that the annual SFA bill was ~£318M. It also reported that ~60% used SFA/SSFA. So for 30,000 RN, 80,0000 Army and 30,000 RAF personnel then 60% would be 72,000. Divide £318M by 72,000 and you get roughly £4.5k each. Now not everybody will need a rise to buy a home as big as a Cpl - so there should be a small saving to be had. Furthermore, people would be on the housing ladder and would expect to have a large part of their home paid off by the time they finished their service (like we used to in the old days with tax-free lump sum). Happier people means safer aircraft and better productivity, plus also the experience may stay in one place increasing our chances of better air power provision.

The USAF do something similar with a housing allowance that is added to wages. You can either rent (and waste it) or buy with it and invest it.

It's different, but it should work if done properly - and there lies the problem, now where's my waccy baccy! :ok:

LJ

[Roland Pulfrew]

Leon

but it should work if done properly

And therein lies the problem with your cunning plan. We are talking about the SCS and HMT here who will just take your £318M as a savings measure to be spent on the NHS or social security. ;)

And of course shouldn't you figures be divided by all of the armed forces personnel? We all need accommodation, and it would be somewhat divisive to say to Cpl Bloggs here is an extra £X.xK for your housing allowance, but Cpl Jones you already have a house so you aren't entitled.

Do the singlies get this allowance so that they can buy their own home? After all they only have a single income to get on the housing ladder with.

And of course encouraging people out of MQs will have a big impact upon the military. As people move out into the wider community, the military community around the unit will gradually disintegrate. If no-one wants to take on the secondary duties on base (running the clubs, societies, scout/brownie packs etc etc) because they live on base then another of those little intangibles disappears forever. If you want an example of this, you should have seen what happened to the social life at Kinloss when large numbers of personnel were moved from MQs on base to PFI MQs 10 miles away in Elgin. :(

[Lima Juliet]

Roland

No one said it would be easy...:ok:

Yes, I agree with the majority of the points but I really don't believe that we have a choice. Our housing stock is knackered (because Portillo agreed to sell it off in the late 90s) and we have no money to replace. Everyone recognises the need for providing accomodation for our forces (just like schemes have been develpoed for nurses, policemen and firefighters). It's just how to do it.

I don't know what the final solution will be - it's just my guesswork and rumour.

LJ

[SOSL]

You don't get owt fer nowt! Loan to buy house = smaller pension and most guys and gals need all the pension they can get,

Rgds SOS

[Onceapilot]

Quite right SOS.
How this plan will hold together for any period of time is beyond me. We had various schemes to help saving for housing and then, the big sell-off's that benefited a few, then the Annington sell-offs that helped even less! Now, it seems, the whole basis of service accommodation is to be dissolved. I doubt that the scheme will give any more in the long term towards the total value of the employment package. I may be wrong. I would like to see more serving personnel own their own homes but, it has long been a strength of the services that affordable quarters would be available wherever you might be posted (if accompanied).
Hope I am wrong about this.

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

Coningsby - Boston

Yes, knew someone who rented in Boston Distinct disadvantage not speaking Portuguese or Polish. Raff.

Still more English than of the other places.

[SOSL]

Hi, LJ. Sadly, the "housing ladder" tends to slope downwards these days. Boys and girls with negative equity don't always perform well.

Rgds SOS

[TheWizard]

At least 'they' are addressing the issue for 'singlies' at some stations.

RAF Odiham accommodation plans approved (From This is Hampshire) (http://www.thisishampshire.net/news/gazettenews/10069307._/?)
RAF Odiham accommodation block approved - News - gethampshire (http://www.gethampshire.co.uk/news/s/2124608_raf_odiham_accommodation_block_approved?)
A PLAN to build accommodation for officers at RAF Odiham has been approved.

The Ministry of Defence applied to build a block near the current officers’ mess to stop reliance on off-base housing and to house officers associated with the base’s planned 12 new Mk6 Chinooks.

The two-storey block will contain 44 bedrooms for junior officers and nine larger suites for senior officers.


Well, the commissioned ones anyway.

[Heathrow Harry]

sure as hell no cheap accommodation around Odiham!!

[Lima Juliet]

Basingstoke is near Odiham (9 miles)...the average prices look about the same as Aylesbury:

BBC NEWS | In Depth | UK House Prices | Basingstoke and Deane (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/shared/spl/hi/in_depth/uk_house_prices/html/24ub.stm)

Here is a 2 bed terrace up for £184k

House for sale/rent in Chineham, Basingstoke - Winkworth (http://www.winkworth.co.uk/sale/property/WNKBAS000161?offid=81&choose_type_sales=1&fromofficelink=1&under_offer=1&issold=1&offset=0)

Or a 2 bed house in Alton for £187k

Warren Powell-Richards Estate Agent (http://www.wprhomes.co.uk/details.php?id=ALT0001776)

:ok:

[whowhenwhy]

LJ, my apologies but I was thinking far too parochially with a clear eye on self-interest. You're absolutely right that property is available at those prices and salary multiples if that's what you want and where you want to live.

[Courtney Mil]

I think you all may be missing a very important point. The statement about giving service personnel long tours and stability to buy, own and live in their own home is utter (to quote BEags) bolleaux. As the services contract, it will become increasingly difficult to find any 'slack' in the system and the "HR" people will be making the same old phone calls explaining why they would love to leave you there, but the needs of the Service.....

You know where this is going. Pilots will still do 2-3 year front line tours, same with engineers, loggies, scribblies, etc., etc. They will need to be posted to new roles for their careers and, more significantly, to fill the gaps as the Service needs them. Sorry, RAF centric, but that's the one I know.

Stability. Utter rot. You'll be buying and selling, renting and disputing contractted lets just as much as you are now.

Discuss.

[Lima Juliet]

Courtney

I bought quite near your locale - within 90 minutes of quite a few places - Wittering, Wyton, Cranwell, Waddington, High Wycombe, Benson, Brize Norton, Northolt, Northwood, Shrivenham, Cosford, Brampton, Henlow, Halton, Bentley Priory (when we had it :{) and by train to MOD Main Building. I knew I would have to suck-up a 90 minute commute for some postings (the normal maximum time allowable), and have less than 35 minutes for others. I would get HTD and also it was better than living in the Mess during the week staying away from my family. 9 years later and 4 postings in, I haven't found the need to move. Yes, I might have been given something like the dreaded '4Ls' of Leuchars, Lossie, Linton or Leeming; but there are enough people who want to stay in those places.

It can be done with a bit of lateral thinking and a broad portfolio of skills. It can knacker your car though - one of the 2 year tours I put 50,000 miles on a diesel!

It is also not unusual in civvy street. I'm sure there are those in your Finmere village that commute daily to the City via Bicester North - probably a trip of over 90 minutes? Plus they will doing that for life (or until they jump off Canary Wharf!).

Finally, I don't like the idea of the SFA rumours, but I'm trying to reassure that there are alternatives.

LJ

[Widger]

Knew this was coming amongst other things under the great sounding New Employment Model and was another reason 18 months ago I told the MoD to shove it up their hoop! Look on the bright side...someone probably got an MBE or promotion out of these bright ideas!