bmiBaby threads (merged)

[dog in park]

Good morning!

[Facelookbovvered]

We start the new thread with a polite good morning and what do we get? , called idiots and a side swipe at the MODs!!!

I think the Mods called it right in closing the last thread, when you get someone using bmi groups published accounts, which are i might global for the group not the individual units and then dividing the numbers by the number of aircraft in what are three very different business models and then passing the resultant numbers off as representing bmibaby trading figures!! FFS:ugh:

Anyway enough of the past lets move on.:ok:

[revo]

Which aircraft are still to get the new design baby, which they seem to put a different design on each aircraft?

Revo

[Montezuma]

I think the Mods called it right in closing the last thread, when you get someone using bmi groups published accounts, which are i might global for the group not the individual units and then dividing the numbers by the number of aircraft in what are three very different business models and then passing the resultant numbers off as representing bmibaby trading figures!! FFS

As if I'm going to tell the likes of you the exact figures :ugh::ugh:

They are on a need to know basis and you don't need to know :ok:

[Facelookbovvered]

Well that's very logical?

So you either know the figures but post something else, whats the point in that? why post anything at all?:8

Any way whatever the figures are I'm sure any prospective buyer will have full access to the management accounts, for all its fault bmi is not a tin pot business without books.:mad:

[Montezuma]

You got " in the general direction " which is good enough: you want the exact numbers - put in bid.

[frostbite]

What a surprise !

Airport owner may buy budget airline (From Echo) (http://www.echo-news.co.uk/news/local_news/9557816.Airport_owner_may_buy_budget_airline/)

[Flightrider]

Unless Stobart are suddenly going to a) acquire more airports or b) swamp Carlisle with enough capacity to take every man, woman and child in the area to Spain at least four times a year, then I can see easyJet being hugely uncomfortable with this move. You make a show of commitment to Stobart at Southend and then they bring their "own" airline in alongside you? Surely not.

[davidjohnson6]

Echoes of Manston and Plymouth here.

[Aero Mad]

Given that Easyjet has such a tiny presence in the Midlands, and they wouldn't bother pitting bmibaby against Easyjet at Southend because they would be subsidising both airlines, I suspect any such move would not be founded on the idea of both airlines competing in any way. They may want bmibaby for Carlisle - I doubt that Easyjet has any interest in that airport unless there are significant subsidies (ie. more than Southend - at least SEN has decent catchment and a direct trainline to Liverpool Street), which would probably make such an operation unviable for Stobart anyway.

[UN614]

Why would Stobart have to operate a passenger service? They are a haulage compamy after all.

[vulcanised]

How much difference can it make when you operate your own airline out of your own airport?

[airferries]

Oh come on. I am sure the quote from an 'insider' came from a post on here. Just because some journo in Basildon writes an article about said post, it doesn't make it any more likely.

[Expressflight]

I tend to agree with airferries on this one.

For Stobart to show any interest there would surely have to be a very large cash 'sweetener' from LH as part of the deal. Even then it would still be a very high risk acquisition going forward.

[Bam Thwok]

For Stobart to show any interest there would surely have to be a very large cash 'sweetener' from LH as part of the deal.

Replace Stobart with Jet2 and you're not far off the mark....

[Cazza_fly]

Replace Stobart with Jet2 and you're not far off the mark....

So now it's Jet2.com again? :ugh: Source?

I thought they declared themselves out a while ago...

[Say again s l o w l y]

Stobarts would make a lot of sense. I'm hoping that it is them as I think it'd give baby the best chance of turning into the airline it could be.

[eastern wiseguy]

This appears to be dragging on....could it be that any company, having had a look in depth at the opportunities available via Baby ,has decided that they would need SUCH a sweetener that it isn't worth their while?

[INKJET]

I'll give a £100 it's not and won't be Jet2 charity of your choice.

[giblets]

On the other, now closed thread:

Herr Piece
BIG announcement comming on the 29th

Did I miss something, or did BMI baby get down on one knee and ask one of her suitors?

[nigel osborne]

Giblets,

Think the big announcement was that they were turning a term sheet over and playing hangman on it :ugh:

Nigel

[groundfine]

I see that RishworthAviation are recruiting for Skymark airlines based Narita. B737NG with or without type rating and with potential for A330 and A380 in 2013.
Wikipedia has a bit of info on them.

[bmybaby81]

IAG has already plans of what to do with bmibaby if it is not sold by the time the bmi sale is completed. Have a look at this...

Bmi to be (http://www.abtn.co.uk/news/0117052-bmi-be-%E2%80%98integrated-quickly%E2%80%99-ba)

[runway30]

I do hope that I am wrong but I believe the proposed deal for bmibaby will fall apart if the identity of the bidder becomes known before completion. I hope there is a Plan B lurking in the background because what IAG has planned doesn't look pleasant.

[ballyctid]

Best of luck to all concerned, I am a victim of a previous "Willie Walsh integration" and it wasn't nice!

[1234567]

bmi has signed another term sheet for the sale of bmibaby to an EU based airline group. This potential new owner, which has operations in several countries across Europe, would acquire 100 per cent of the shares of bmibaby. This would include the aircraft fleet, the existing route network and the continued employment of the existing staff.

This non exclusive term sheet is in addition to the term sheet already signed with a UK based company in January 2012. bmi plans to sign a definitive sale purchase agreement with one of the parties in the next few weeks. The completion of the transaction would occur shortly after this, subject to receiving all the necessary approvals.

The bmibaby brand name would continue to be used for an interim period and bmibaby’s head office would remain in the East Midlands with the airline continuing to operate from its existing bases in the UK.

Wolfgang Prock-Schauer, chief executive officer, bmi, said:

“bmibaby has attracted a great level of interest and our discussions open up great future prospects for the airline and its employees.

“bmibaby is now seeing its highest ever levels of customer satisfaction, is achieving great on time performance and has an extremely dedicated and passionate team. The new owner would have the chance to build on this success providing a positive future for the business.”

bmi and the buyer have agreed not to disclose any financial aspects of the planned transaction.

Let the speculation begin!

[G-AWZK]

Inkjet,

are you still willing to make the £100 bet?

[INKJET]

On reflection no, I'll make it £200 will you match me? If your wrong?

[runway30]

That'll be ASL then.

[G-AWZK]

Wrong about what? So far you have told us the following:

Whilst i would not rule out further slot sales by bmi (to the highest bidder) in 2012 i think a take over of bmi by the IAG group remains very unlikely

BA won't be buying bmi

Jet2 won't be buying bmibaby

Baby is in BHD to stay

I have not made any definitive statements about who will be the eventual buyer. Some of the speculation makes commercial sense, some absolutely not.

This sale saga has been one of the more painful and drawn out commercial sales I have seen in a longtime. There is a lack of information coming from management about what is happening, and what is likely to happen to peoples jobs. It is unsettling and is having a detrimental effect on morale, in both Baby and Regional.

[LGS6753]

Inkjet -

Except Baby are not selling, it's Lufthansa selling, and they just want rid, as cleanly and cheaply as possible.

[nigel osborne]

Inkjet,

This is now a complete farce, and I feel so sorry that the poor employees have to hang on and on for what...yup ...another non binding term sheet :eek: !!!!

Willie Walsh on behalf of BA, and therefore IAG stated last week that Baby will be taken over by them and "restructured" at the same time IAG take over BMI, if LH cannot sign a buyer by that time for Baby. :(

That was expected to be mid march, pending no referrals to monopolies commission.So therefore LH have to then to actually find someone who wants to buy... not just sign a non binding sheet.

I am really hoping for the employees this can be achieved before this date.

Nigel

[INKJET]

Oh yeah of little faith!!

Buying selling it makes no difference taking on liabilities is the same as buying, but clearly some on here have no concept of that.

[G-AWZK]

Buying selling it makes no difference taking on liabilities is the same as buying, but clearly some on here have no concept of that.

Can you try that again in English?

If we are lacking in understanding, please do teach us. I am willing to learn...

[Montezuma]

Someone, not so many posts ago insisted asset value wasn't important: so what does baby have by way of potential?

Being as there are no assets.

[Arkroyal]

Guys guys, bicker not.

All will be clear............. In a couple of weeks!:rolleyes:

[G-AWZK]

Inkjet,

What you are saying is what I said a few months ago. No assets and large liabilities don't make a very attractive deal. Couple that to a loss making business unit and it becomes even less so. The dowry that would need to be paid to carry the liabilities and losses will have to be huge to make it viable from a purchasers point of view.

I hope that baby finds a benevolent investor, but now that the OFT have given the green light to the Mainline sale, time is going to be of the essence and I only hope that things move forward with the array of interested parties very quickly.

[dontdoit]

Heard WizzAir mentioned this morning :uhoh:

[BombardierCR7]

According to a Travelmole article:

"The airline announced that it had two term sheets signed for the sale - one to an EU-based airline group, which would acquire 100% of the shares including aircraft, existing routes and employment of existing staff and one to a UK based company"

Travelmole (http://www.travelmole.com/news_feature.php?news_id=2000589&c=setreg&region=2)

[JSCL]

Funnily, I heard AF/KL from someone this morning.

[160to4DME]

Funnily, I heard AF/KL from someone this morning.

Transavia UK; now that would be a surprise.....:hmm:

[Montezuma]

Let me see: Air France are cost cutting to save billions of € and looking to off load KLM.

But, Pierre et Marcel, Bonjour matelots, seeing the opportunity, bon chance, to take over an ailing low cost carrier with 14 antique 737s and les grand losses, dip their pain au chocolat into their cafe over le petit dejeuner and have a brainstorm - mais non - a stroke of genius....

"Pierre, ecoute mois"
" Nous must acheter la bebe de bmi plus vite parceque c'est un tres bon deal"
" Mais oui, Marcel,j'aime les cochons dans les pokes"

[apaul]

KLM has already had experience of losing money with Buzz. Why would it want to get hold of bmibaby and rack up more losses?

[toledoashley]

I like the Wizzair idea! Still think it will be Eddie Stobart though.

[MKY661]

Transavia UK; now that would be a surprise.....http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/yeees.gif

That would be cool, although remember what happened to the Danish company?

Hope Bmibaby gets a good buyer

[Binder]

You see I like Wizzair; But then I like Eddie Stobart too.

But which one is better?

There's only one way to find out..............



Binder

[md80forum]

My guess is that the buyer is a joint-venture to be formed by Finnair and AirBerlin.

[j636]

Ryanair is tight-lipped over Bmibaby takeover | This is Leicestershire (http://www.thisisleicestershire.co.uk/Ryanair-tight-lipped-Bmibaby-takeover/story-15420800-detail/story.html)

[bluepilot]

god help you guys if it is Ryanair, look at what they did with BUZZ, it will be painful and harsh.

[runway30]

The Western Mail have named the UK business that signed a term sheet as "Flyforbeans".

Welsh aviation firm in running to acquire low-fare carrier Bmibaby - Business News - Business - WalesOnline (http://www.walesonline.co.uk/business-in-wales/business-news/2012/03/07/welsh-aviation-firm-in-running-to-acquire-low-fare-carrier-bmibaby-91466-30474995/)

[The Eternal JP]

Love this article. In the space of 4 paragraphs it goes from basing 2 ac at Cardiff, so then quoting the bases would remain the same.................genius!!
:D

[bcn_boy]

It states that the existing bases would remain plus possibly two aircraft based in Cardiff. Your point is?

[rareair]

Never mind Buzz,

look at what they did (allegedly) with Air Polonia....

Surely it's in FR's interest for baby to be wound up at zero cost to them, and then move in quickly to fill any capacity gaps.

[carlrsymington]

Not in the business but...

Ryanair could be stringing all the players along to make life difficult for all.

1. Potential buyers would know that they are not the only candidate, possibly increasing the cost of a deal.
2. LH may or may not be keen to sell to Ryanair but if they thought "money" was there then maybe.
3. Finally, Ryanair could just pull-out near the end and leave all of the players high and dry. No buyer, no sale, BA get a reduced price.

Not sure of the legalities but Ryanair would play it mean.

BTW - I'm a baby supporter, flew 'em last month and going to Portugal at end of month.

[runway30]

There is only one thing wrong with this Ryanair theory, Ryanair is a single airline, it is not an "airline group".

[Cyrano]

There is no apparent basis to the Ryanair story. The newspaper article didn't adduce any facts or give any reason to believe that Ryanair might be interested. It essentially said "bmibaby is for sale. We asked Ryanair if they were interested and they said 'no comment.' COULD RYANAIR BE INTERESTED?" Slow news day I fear.

BTW I agree with a previous poster: why would Ryanair bother? They don't need bmibaby. I thought the suggestion of ASL was more plausible. Maybe entirely fictitious :cool:, but at least more plausible.

[caaardiff]

FFB have never had any aircraft and I don't think had an AOC.
There was a lot of talk in Welsh aviation at the time of how things were progressing, routes and a/c types had been discussed, they were (possibly still are) a registered business and even recruitment had started. But the market went to pot and the people involved went on to do other things, but are said to still be well in the loop.
WW's setup is the ideal setup to what FFB wanted. FFB were going to be a startup basing in CWL at first, which some (most) would argue is a risk in itself. However WW are a ready made airline. With new ideas and structure could be moulded into what FFB wanted.
I would like to think the idea of FFB isn't that far off the mark. But anything is possible. The whole article could just be speculation blown out of proportion.

[MCFARH]

With regards to why Ryanair want WW, The only reason comes to mind is that FR are stuggling to get Captains, no sooner do FO's reach command level they are promoted. And with taking on WW flight crew have the ability to fly 738 without much more trainning required. With regards to cabin crew, Ryanair have a high turnover in crew each year im sure having a further 450 (already based) wouldnt be much hassle to them.

However all a theory.. Waiting game ;-)

[G-AWZK]

There no chance of FR being involved with baby the management and AOC post holders would know what would befall them and would be gone in a flash and the company would fall apart at the seams, Lufthansa are not stupid ! an orderly handover to a new owner with maximum number of staff retained is a clear objective, the company falling apart in an uncontrolled maner would be far more expensive to resolve than what is rumoured to be in play.


One word; Buzz.

Business is business, and at the end of the day Lufthansa will decide based on what is best for them and their shareholders. To think they care about staff retention when it is no longer their responsibility, is being a tad naeive.

inky, I am not having a go at you, but if Ryanair put the best financial package on the table that costs DLH the least to unload the company that is what will happen. I am not saying that Ryanair are negotiating ( I find it unlikely), but they do have a well documented shortage of experienced crews and with Emirates specifically targeting Ryan crews, this is a situation that will get worse for them. I can see the logic in another airline buying WW just for the experienced flightdeck.

[FR-]

Your right inkjet, even Im leaving! I already have my start date with another airline. Ryanair have already put memos about unpaid leave again for winter 2012/13. Your also right we are well trained with regards to SEP/SOP but not customer service, I disagree with the highly motivated crews, with all this forced unpaid leave, and push on sales sales sales, many have just had enough and most crew actually hate the company and head office managers.

If Ryanair took on Baby good luck to the crews.

fr-

[dog in park]

They might keep it and call it 'GO2'

[nitefiter]

this is one baby Captain that FR will NEVER get their hands on!! id sooner pack in flying.

[Buster the Bear]

Emirates expect to recruit over 500 pilots this coming financial year.

[G-AWZK]

Well, the end of another week and we still have no idea what is happening to either baby or regional. It would be nice if someone, anyone gave us a clue....

[The Eternal JP]

Patience, patience. All good things.............

[johnnychips]

Patience, patience. All good things...........

....come to an end.

I think you're mixing up your proverbs. Try

'Everything comes...'

[The Eternal JP]

Nah, I knew exactly what I wanted to say. :)

[CabinCrewe]

and I knew exactly what you meant.

[TCAS_Alert]

Shoot me down in flames if you wish, but what about the likes of West Atlantic taking them on? Another airline operational in multiple countries across the EU, with a bonus of having a large operation at CVT.

They could perhaps eventually even re-establish passenger ops at CVT.... :hmm:

[G-AWZK]

Well, the start of a new week; apparently the EC will make a decision by the 16th.

Anyone got any idea what is happening with baby today? Emirates buying us over maybe?

Anyone? Ferris?

[LGS6753]

Sky News reporting that the deadline for negotiations over 'concessions' has been extended for two weeks, ie until the end of March.
So no news on the 'parent' negotiation until then.

[nigel osborne]

LGS.

Thats good news.. The EU were set to announce on Fri whether IAG could aquire BMI on Friday.

If approved BA on behalf of IAG stated they would take over Baby on the same date.

Another 2 weeks gives time for some heads to be banged together and for the brave to actually stand up and be counted.:ugh:

Nigel

[nigel osborne]

DDEE737

WW have been saying that it will have a buyer very soon since early December, so lets hope the deal can be finalised in time.

Its ok to say the sale of BMI to BA/IAG won't effect WW, but as I said, Willie Walsh confims they WILL take over Baby on the date the deal for BMI is approved by the EU if LH hasn't found a buyer for it..

So LH/WW have till then to sign a buyer.

Nigel

[Halfwayback]

N O
I think you will find that the 'WW' he refers to is a well known figurehead rather than an airline designator!

HWB

[G-AWZK]

Given the extremely tight timescale, I just wonder how quickly DLH can close a deal for baby. The Regional deal has gone frighteningly quiet after months of work on that. Can Lufthansa move fast enough to get someone to sign a deal?

There is still no sign of a winter schedule - is this a significant indicator that something is afoot? Is it good/bad/insignificant?

[sunday8pm]

What about NAX, any chance?? :D

[eastern wiseguy]

I said it ages ago.......Is there ANY organisation that wants to take on Baby....look at the assets(the staff) look at the liabilities, old decrepit thirsty aircraft,poor choice of routes ,no slots worth talking about,loss making to the max.

Who would buy that?

The longer it drags on the more likely it appears that they will be lumped in with the sale and closed down forthwith.

[G-AWZK]

NAX as in Norwegian Air Shuttle?

Anything is possible I suppose, but can't see why they would.

[LGS6753]

If negotiations with a buyer for BMIbaby are ongoing at the time IAG completes on the Group deal, I'm sure IAG would continuev those negotiations.
They would be daft to halt a potential sale/giveaway, as they will otherwise have to wind up baby at a later date, with all its attendant costs.
I would be surprised if IAG are not 'in the loop' about DLH's negotiations

[Artie Fufkin]

The vast majority have new paint and fresh interiors and are now kept clean

...no doubt, top of the agenda for all investors. :)

[G-AWZK]

That facts are that two companies have signed terms sheets, ie they are interested in the business and already know the numbers. A term sheet is only an expression of interest. It doesn't mean much more than that. There is a long way to go between term sheet and closing a deal.

The aircraft are elderly, younger than BA 400's or Lufthansa's 300's/500's and far younger than the Jet2 classic fleet. Non of which are decrepit or thirstier than any other classic fleet world wide??the 737-300/400/500s are in their twilight years. In a modern world where oil is over a hundred bucks a barrel they make it more difficult to turn a profit.

As for routes, well closing CWL and MAN was madness, and the uncertainty over the future of baby will not be helping forward bookings, nor will the lack of a winter schedule.

I hope for all concerned that an understanding buyer is found, and Inkjet, the hint that you know more than anyone else is interesting, you must be the only person who does know.....wink wink.

[liverpool07]

The lack of a winter schedule means nothing-last year I don't think they went on sale until mid-April! Easyjet don't have theirs on yet...should we be worried about them as well.

[eastern wiseguy]

G-WK

Thanks you saved me the time....


Clearly you would be delighted were bmibaby to "be closed forthwith"

Completely untrue......I have a vested interest in them flying. I have a vested interest in ALL companies flying.(In UK airspace)

In view of your recent predictions vis

I would put it at 90%+ that baby will be sold before Xmas......3rd Nov 2011, 09:38

I shan't hold my breath on your knowledge of forward bookings.

Inkjet you really are a winker......spelling?

[nigel osborne]

Expressdriver,

Thought you gave a good and plausible if a bit long synopsis on this matter.

However with ever rising fuel prices and a fleet of gas guzzlers, for the new airline to be successful, they MUST be able to replace the current fleet reasonably quickly with more modern and fuel efficient planes.

Even Jet 2 with a fleet of older 737s are gradually doing this, leaving Baby the only UK airline left to start this process.

I am keeping my fingers crossed that a new owner, and crucially, one capable of having deep enough pockets required to turn the losses signs up in the next 2 weeks.

Nigel

[Say again s l o w l y]

737 CL aren't particularly gas guzzling compared to other aircraft. For the shortish flights that baby does with them, they aren't too bad really.

Classics will need replacing or upgrading due to plenty of other reasons, but fuel economy isn't really much of an issue.

[dog in park]

I feel a BMIbaby 3 coming on! lets all calm down
It is always quiet unless you are in the boardroom.
It does get lonely up in the country side outside the city so just ignore the wise guy.

[frequentflyer2]

It's currently being suggested on the BHD forum that MOL has been having discussions with management. Could there be some tie in with bmibaby here in view of the rumours about Ryanair wanting to buy it?

[G-AWZK]

That's not possible. Inkjet said Ryanair would never buy baby.

[INKJET]

Brevity, bloodly hell that's a first!!

[G-AWZK]

For a change I was agreeing with you inky. I can't see Ryanair having any serious interest in taking over baby.

I would still regard Stobart as a good result.

The fat lady has cleared her throat a number of times on the regional deal, but time is running out.........

[1234567]

Latest missive from WPS:

Regarding bmibaby we are in advanced stages of due diligence with one of the parties and we will be in a position to start consultation with employees very soon.

[dog in park]

Maybe SMB ?:E

[san diego]

Consultation usually means consultation in respect of redundancies, I fear Baby's future is not filled with rosy cheeks. The same may apply to Regional where the only potential buyer doesn't seem to have the money and we all know what that means

[G-AWZK]

Not Stobart? Air Contractors/ASL would be the only other mob I could think of.

Consultation with staff? That doesn't sound good.

[davidjohnson6]

Might be worth those working for bmi group having a read through TUPE (Transfer of Undertakings Protection of Employment) rules - which presumably would apply to Lufthansa selling bmi group to IAG / BA - there's plenty on Google

There's certainly an obligation on the outgoing employer (i.e. Lufty) under TUPE to consult with employees as part of the process

[Little Blue]

Spot on David. The word 'Consultation' has a double meaning.
I hope it is the positive, rather than negative.............

[Artie Fufkin]

David, BMI pilots are not employment lawyers, so "reading TUPE" would be completely pointless.

Surely this is what we pay BALPA for?

[davidjohnson6]

Artie - I'm not an employment lawyer either but I'm capable of doing a Google on TUPE and reading through what comes up. Maybe you understand only the basic themes rather than the more esoteric detail but better to know something than be ignorant. In any case if you are paying union dues then it's time for BALPA to show they are worth the money and come up with good information for all concerned quickly

[Buster the Bear]

Transfer of your current 'terms & conditions' to a new employer following a take over. Pensions are not covered.

The new employer might have better T's & C's which you can elect to transfer on to if you so wish.

Consultation means that employers must talk to staff about impending change. Nothing sinister, just the law.

[bex88]

Buster the bear..... Spot on a consultation is exactly that. Communicating with employees. This may be in the form of changes to working practice, company structure, pensions, terms etc etc.... a company must consult existing employees because some may not want to transfer over to the new company. Roles can also be merged or created so really the scope is endless.

Consultation was mentioned by WPS to mainline so it's not exclusive to baby and is a normal part of the process, unsettling none the less.

[INKJET]

I wouldn't get to excited over the word consultation, unions and staff repersentertives must be consulted on a change of ownership at least 14 days prior to such change.

The Sunday Times are reporting that Lufthansa are threatening to close bmi if the EU inquiry drags on, it says the EU have rejected the remedies offered by IAG/bmi as inadequate.

[G-AWZK]

There was always a danger of this, but I thought both IAG and DLH were savvy enough to avoid it.

The irony is that if the competition commissioners hold the deal up, Lufty pulling the plug will result in, well, less competition with a side salad of 3000 unemployed people.....
LUFTHANSA is considering shutting down its BMI British Midland subsidiary if the sale of the loss-making carrier is held up by Brussels.

The German airline agreed in December to sell BMI to International Airlines Group (IAG) for a maximum £172.5m, but the deal could be held up by a European competition investigation as last week Brussels rejected concessions offered by IAG, saying they were inadequate.

Lufthansa is desperate to offload BMI because it is a huge drain on its finances. The latest accounts reveal a £151m pre-tax loss for the British carrier last year. Lufthansa has set aside £108m to cover the deal, including the cost of taking on the pension scheme plus a dowry for IAG, owner of British Airways.

IAG wants BMI for its landing slots at Heathrow. A merger would boost its share of slots at the key hub from 44.8% to 53.5%.

Sources said that Lufthansa could pull the plug on the British carrier if Brussels decides on a protracted investigation. It is thought the Germans want to avoid the further losses that would accrue during an inquiry that could run for months.

A source said: “Both sides want to finish this deal. Of course, if you cannot see an end to it, that might be an option — to close it down.” Lufthansa declined to comment.

[Granite City Express]

This is turning into a royal cluster f#%k.

[no sponsor]

If Lufthansa declined to comment, then how do they know what they are actually thinking?

Surely Lufty will just flog the slots before they close down BMI?

[toledoashley]

Maybe theres hope for SRB?

[LTNman]

All the people I know that have been TUBE'ed have ended up being worse off but not in the first year.

[Airclues]

no sponsor

I doubt that ACL would approve the slot transfers, knowing that Bmi was going to close down.

From IATA rules on slot transfers;

7.15.1 An airline that ceases operations at an airport must immediately return all of the slots allocated to it for the remainder of the season and for the next season (if already allocated), and advise the coordinator whether or not it will use the slots in the future.


Dave

[le grand fromage]

A couple of points on the TUPE and slot issues raised by a number of posters.

TUPE only applies where there is a transfer or sale of a business as opposed to a sale of a company (which is why no consultation is required for the sale of bmi to IAG as its the parent company of bmi that is being sold).If consultation is being proposed it suggests that bmibaby might be sold as a business and not by selling the company bmibaby limited. Not totally sure why that would be, but could be because the aircraft were actually leased to british midland airways limited and so a sale of the company bmibaby ltd doesn't accomplish what the buyer actually needs. The only other reason for consultation would be if large scale redundancies were being planned, but that seems unlikely as either a sale will happen or the whole business will be closed by IAG or LH in the doomsday scenario below.

On the slots and potential close down scenarios, it is highly unlikely that LH could transfer the slots to themselves and then proceed to wind up bmi. The slot regs require that they are operated at least 80% of the time , so LH would have to find the means to fly these 50 odd slots in order to retain them, which means aircraft, crews and routes. Even if they could find the means, what makes you think they would lose any less than bmi operating the same slots? Selling them on to other airlines is not realistic except at the margins....50 is an awful lot of slots to sell quickly particularly when the buyer has to find a slot pair to exchange for the pair it is buying, and there are very few airlines out there looking to increase capacity in a hurry.

If close down is really an option being contemplated by LH then they would probably simply pull the plug by putting in a liquidator and walk away from the whole thing including the pension scheme. Financially that would be a lot better for them than the deal on the table, but reputationally it would be disastrous. Can't see them doing it. It's an attempt to get the EC to roll over quietly.

[G-AWZK]

If close down is really an option being contemplated by LH then they would probably simply pull the plug by putting in a liquidator and walk away from the whole thing including the pension scheme. Financially that would be a lot better for them than the deal on the table, but reputationally it would be disastrous. Can't see them doing it. It's an attempt to get the EC to roll over quietly.

DLH have already set fire to over a Billion euros in the bmi group. Why should they care about reputation?

[davidjohnson6]

A few well chosen threats would likely be listened to carefully by unions at Austrian as well.

Europe is in recession amd has no immediate prospect of economic good times returning quickly. Sometimes companies have to turn nasty as part of a capitalist environment. The German unions are unlikely to make a significamt protest as bmi snd AUA are only damaging increased salaries for staff in Frankfurt and Munich

[Facelookbovvered]

I don't think this is all brinkmanship on Lufthansa part, rather a statement intended to focus the minds of the EU

Equally a walk away leaving unpaid creditors would do immense damage to Lufthansa international reputation, the money might be hurting but that can be earnt back.

bmi is over what ever happens now, the press coverage this weekend will further undermine ticket sales, the trickle of staff leaving will increase week by week, this needs sort by month end and i suspect that the UK Government will be making calls to the EU early this week to tell them to stop faffing.

A sad end to a once proud airline RIP bmi:(

[stormin norman]

I'm not sure this government have the fight for anything aviation at the moment.

If BMI is a massive drain on LH cash, then without drastic surgery it will soon be bleeding BA dry as well.

[G-AWZK]

Have heard there might be some good news this week for Baby... :ok:

[bex88]

good news would be very welcome at bmi. As long as its not a communication saying that the catering company has agreed to increase the meat content of the hot wraps by 5%!!!!!

[Flying Wild]

Have heard there might be some good news this week for Baby... :ok:

That old chestnut. If I had a penny for every time I heard someone say that, I'd be able to buy Baby!

[Say again s l o w l y]

I've heard that too from people who should know.

As with anything, it might take a bit longer than everyone would like, but from the sound of it, there might be some good news soon. Which I would certainly welcome.

They just need to get Regional sorted now...

[Nimrod6]

If I had a penny for every time I heard someone say that, I'd be able to buy Baby!


From what IAG are demanding I think you could've given a penny for every time and still be able to buy Baby!!

Wish everyone at baby the best of luck with it all - it would be a crime to lose the product.

Nimrod

[Jonty]

Good luck to all at Baby. Good bunch of guys.

[Flying Wild]

Well at least we've moved from a few weeks to a few days!

Yup, I'm sure we'll find out 'on Friday':rolleyes:

[Say again s l o w l y]

We'll certainly find out by next friday at any rate...

[dog in park]

Just saw the loads for the BHD bucket and spade routes. lets just say they are good:ok:

[IB4138]

Excuse me pointing out.....It's Friday........

[Flypuppy]

dog in park,

Define good....

[dog in park]

Good in like a picture of Angelina Jolie eating a tub of strawberry ice cream with a tea spoon.......

[Flypuppy]

I was thinking more in terms of load factors, but Angelina Jolie with nothing but a teaspoon works for me.....

[dog in park]

100-96%
YES some said it would fail.

[Flying Wild]

Going to be interesting getting out of BHD with a full load.

[eastern wiseguy]

Mongrel...how's the yield?

[dog in park]

Eastern eejit ,Don't know but would say fine. :E

[eastern wiseguy]

Mongrel

Don't know


And that says it all......you have as much of an idea as anyone else.....:=

[dog in park]

but they are still full! and thats what matters on a first season.:D

[Flypuppy]

but they are still full! and thats what matters on a first season.


It isn't. Yield is everything.

I understood that flights to the med were being load limited out of BHD, so 100% load factors are not possible. tech stopping in EMA as well?

[Facelookbovvered]

The despatch office here have been told that sales on AGP,FAO,ALC are capped at circa 140, think the others are more or less unrestricted so if they sell 140 I guess that's 100%??

I think the plan is to see how it goes, but I guess there will be a sweet spot or perhaps an un sweet spot of wind direction low pressure wet run and male/ female mix that might throw up an RTOW issue.

I think it's fascinating that people who said they'd never sell or start or baby wouldn't last are now concerned about whether they can lift the pay load!

I do agree yield is the key, but without bums on seats you can't manage the yield, again the usual suspects were complaining about baby's prices being high, it's seems you can't win

I see the morning BHD EMA Flybe was canx due fog at EMA at least the 737's are Cat3. It rare not to get in with a Cat2 aircraft, it must have been bad the EMA website shows the FR Dublin having diverted.

[North West]

I do agree yield is the key, but without bums on seats you can't manage the yield

:hmm: Without bums on seats you can't manage the ancillary streams, but for seat yield I'd love to know how you can change it once people have actually booked.

[Facelookbovvered]

I take your point, but what i meant was that once you've sold say 50% of seats i guess you can tweak the prices up, when you at 75% a bit more and the last 10-15 i guess you can up them again? , but yield is not my department....off course a good % of sales will be through travel agent allocations i guess, the GVA have been.

[mart901]

If you've filled 140 seats on a 737-300 there isn't many left to fill and having looked at the prices from early on till more recently they have never been exactly rock bottom, I can't imagine them having a poor yield. Interestingly now the "they will be lucky to fill 20 seats" mob are nowhere to be seen now on here. A lot of the seats will be travel agency sold through the association with the Co-op.

[righthandrule]

If a lot of seats have been sold in blocks to travel agents then there is even less control over yield. Travel agent blocks are sold at the lowest price to make it viable to package the holiday at a profit. Say 50 seats per flight are taken at base price by a travel agent, the airline then has to sell the remaining 98 seats themselves. To capture good early bookings, a good proportion of those 98 seats will need to be sold at a low price to get any bookings at all, really only leaving 10-20 seats to collect yield on. However conversely run the risk of selling the flight all yourself as the airline, the route may be a flop and all 148 seats may have to be sold at a low price to fill the aircraft. Whilst sensible to take allocations to start off, baby needs to sell to the high yielding flight only passengers to actually make any money. Making money on holiday allocations works by moving volumes with very low yield per passenger. Baby is far too small to do this. Going down the leisure allocation route at a new base will guarantee good loads for the first season as generally a new base won't make any profit in its first year. However, anyone can fill a plane by flogging the seats to travel agents, I bet the prices sky rocket next year when they realise naff all was made on these routes this year.

[EI-BUD]

I can't imagine them having a poor yield


Imagine, imagine that the market was so plentiful that everybody has good supply of passengers, and each carriers makes a good return.

The fact is nobody outside of the senior people in baby know what the yield is. A few weeks of improved loads do not spell out that baby is making any reutrn at Belfast City Airport, and a while the numbers have improved on Stansted and Amsterdam, there certainly don't appear to be where they need to be and based on the type of fares they are offering (very attractive), it would appear that the yield certainly is not breaking any records. Then again the market is crowded. However, the competition have deep pockets and it was never going to be a smooth ride.

If demand is so strong, why is it that the comparative price on baby to Malaga, Faro etc is so so much cheaper, even when we consider that a portion of seats are allocated to travel agents baby still charging rock bottom on many dates, suggests to me that the demand is not as high as it would appear.

Finally, to me the least of Bmibaby's worries at this time is whether the BHD base is working or not, the fact that the no deal has been concluded by now March 25th (for the sale of) is a big area for concern.

Good luck to one and all concerned. Me, I remain to be convinced that Belfast City is working or remotely close to working in a commercial sense for them.

EI-BUD

[INKJET]

It is very early days for the Med flights at BHD and with an early Easter this year the loads will get a boost, but the year round stuff is very important, it was that that killed CWL.

The loads on the domestics plus AMS vary enormously and with only one route out of STN marketing is a challenge, this next week see the Tues & Wed rotation to AMS stop apart from the odd few days over the next couple of months where advance booking were strong and this should help the route by pushing pax into either Monday or Thursday or up the road to BFS.

Overall the move to BHD is positive and the numbers on both BHX & EMA are many times better than those achieved at BFS, yield? it can't help but be better when you have 130 bums on seats instead of 30.

[eastern wiseguy]

A very sensible discussion on yield........however........all of this might be academic if the sale doesn't pan out as hoped.

Is there ANYONE sitting on the sidelines waiting for (let's say) IAG to dump Baby and then pick them up for a quid...a la Chinese and Rover?.

Where will that leave the plans?

[INKJET]

The answer to that is who knows, but i can't see much happening before Easter now given the EU intervention, in the mean time its business as normal and the flights are busy.:cool:

[Tiny Monkey]

All this waiting for the official announcement is incredibly frustrating, however the rumour is that the not-so-mysterious European Airline Group signed on the dotted line last Wednesday. Surely it has to be announced this week?

[CabinCrewe]

not so mysterious ?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Friday again tomorrow...

[Arkroyal]

Call me simple if you like, many do................but

If I was negotiating to buy baby, and was looking at having to pay £x for it, I'd be talking to IAG.

IAG get baby for nothing, in fact less than nothing. Won't the price be easily negotiated well below £x once Willie is saddled with baby?

Either way someone must know, and it's downright rude to keep the supposedly valued workers in the dark

Some light please, and soon!

[The Cleaner]

So if baby is to be given away, why not regional? Especially as at least we know there is a definite interested party 'Granite'. Can you allude to the sources saying baby will be given away??

[INKJET]

I think the correct term is negative premium !

The only liabities extend to staff and lease contracts all of whom are in bmi not baby, baby is a trading name only, ie bmi trading as bmibaby, if/when sold then all the baby bits will be wrapped up in bmibaby ltd 100% shares of which will be bought buy the acquiring company, all historic trading losses will cease on that day mean while forward bookings monies will go with the new company, a good time of the year to buy it I would have thought:cool:

[Flypuppy]

The only liabities extend to staff and lease contracts all of whom are in bmi not baby, baby is a trading name only, ie bmi trading as bmibaby, if/when sold then all the baby bits will be wrapped up in bmibaby ltd 100% shares of which will be bought buy the acquiring company, all historic trading losses will cease on that day mean while forward bookings monies will go with the new company, a good time of the year to buy it I would have thought

That was not quite how I read things but unfortunately I have signed an NDA - would like to comment further but can't!! :bored:

[babybaby]

bmi is a trading name of British Midland Airways Ltd, not bmibaby.

bmibaby is a trading name of bmibaby Ltd.

Check respective websites.


babybaby :{

[TakeNote]

From what I am aware of, paperwork for bmibaby was signed last week. Also, The BA CFO is visiting Donington Hall next week.

[1234567]

Latest from WPS:

Dear colleagues,



I am pleased to advise you that the EU Competition Authority has today approved the sale of bmi to IAG. This is one of the major pre-requisites of the transaction and will enable the completion of the purchase to take place.



Today's successful outcome is the result of months of hard work. I would personally like to thank those who contributed to the process and to all of you for continuing to provide a safe and customer focused operation. As you know, a completion of the sale to IAG is regarded as fundamental to the future of our business, so today’s news signifies an important milestone for bmi.



In terms of next steps, we will work with Lufthansa and IAG to fulfil all the necessary pre-requisites of the sale and we are now working towards a completion date of around 20th April. From this date IAG will be our new owners and we would no longer be part of the Lufthansa Group. As previously communicated, we will continue to operate our summer 2012 schedule as planned.



We know that you are waiting for more information regarding integration plans and what these plans will mean for you. The integration roadmap is being finalised and it will be shared with you during the consultation process which will start shortly. Our business will undergo major changes during the integration process and this is necessary in order to achieve the synergies needed to make the business viable.



With respect to bmi Regional and bmibaby, both businesses have attracted interest from potential buyers and discussions continue. For both airlines, the sales efforts will continue and the summer schedule will operate as currently planned. If the airlines become part of the IAG transaction there are no plans to integrate them into BA.



We recognise that throughout this process you will have lots of questions, so we will ensure that we provide regular updates to you as and when new information becomes available. You can continue to contact the **** email address with any queries you may have.



Until the date of completion, please be mindful that there is still some information that we are unable to discuss with BA. We will circulate guidelines to the senior management team so please speak to your manager for guidance.



With best regards,



Wolfgang Prock-Schauer

[mart901]

Any news guys? All gone quiet on here.

[Jonnyf]

bmibaby Announce New Routes from Birmingham Airport - Birmingham Airport (http://www.birminghamairport.co.uk/meta/news/2012/04/customers-get-a-slice-of-the-action-with-bmibaby.aspx)

[davidjohnson6]

Jonnyf - it's nice to see new routes finally become reality, but these routes were announced on 18 May last year
Seven new routes for summer 12 | 2011 | bmibaby Travel News (http://www.bmibaby.com/bmibaby/news/2011/seven_new_routes_for_summer_12.aspx)

[INKJET]

Fair point but least you forget a few years back baby would launch, chop, change, canx and often all before it started, these days they are a reliable carrier that makes or try's to make routes work, EG BHD AMS

All the new routes for Summer have got off to a great start and BHD is doing very well which shows what can be done given the state of the Belfast market for baby 18 months ago.

[mart901]

They are probably doing better and more reliable than ever before, be good to see them sold onto someone to develop it and invest. They really need a winter schedule to raise revenue.

[Grotehaasje]

Sorry chaps: it looks like game over.

Heard that ACL had pulled out leaving no one interested in taking over baby.

[runway30]

That'll be the moment that they saw the books. There were two parties interested.

[Grotehaasje]

Indeed R30: they are not pretty reading.:eek:

[runway30]

Perhaps the other party can't read accounts?

[thebayflyer]

so what's going to happen? Curtains for Baby?

[runway30]

Grotehaasje, what has happened to the other party?

[Grotehaasje]

Long story: the bid, from the other party, was for both Regional and baby and was rejected.

They wanted, apparently, individual bids and the preferred bidder for Regional was Granite: who was in the frame for baby has been discussed here.

Then they changed their minds: then changed then again, and again.

Hence the other party is no longer in the chase: if it all falls apart they may examine picking up the remains, but unlikely to consider any action without a substantial sweetener and the liabilities being written off.

If you want an opinion, the probability of baby surviving is low.:sad:

[Say again s l o w l y]

Errrr. I don't think you're talking about the same people.

Unless you have solid gen on this, then I'd be retracting that if I was you. There are hundreds of people in baby who might be affected by this and if you are simply parroting a load of old tosh with no basis of fact, then you are putting a lot of people through anguish for no reason.

I think I know who you are talking about and they aren't the party interested in baby now.

The baby deal is for baby only, not Regional too.

[runway30]

Regional - 1 Bidder, assumed to be Granite, unable to raise the money

Baby - 2 Bidders: One is a UK Company, the name has been mentioned in the press, the other is an EU Airline Group.

Which of these have dropped out?

[Jonnyf]

Easyjet have stated there after acquiring 2 loco's. Any chance?

[runway30]

Inky, what have I said that is well off the mark?

[Granite City Express]

Regional - 1 Bidder, assumed to be Granite, unable to raise the money
The funding has been agreed, and a deal is being - or has been - arranged with IAG. This intel came from a well placed source in management.
The person who told me is high enough up the tree to know.

[EI-BUD]

Inkjet, what a lot of tosh in your last message, I have read post after post of this super charged positivity, which is admiral, but I sense its all wishful thinking on your part.

I'm am sad to say that I feel bmibaby has a bleak future despite them being a competitor to the organisation that I work for.

Good luck to all staff.

EI-BUD.

[Van G]

GCE

If the well placed management source is who I think it is I'd take that with a huge pinch of salt.

I'm not saying it won't happen. I just think there's a lot of pro granite management spin at the moment and what facts it's based on is sketchy.

[Grotehaasje]

SAS, save the indignance and read the post.

It doesn't say the bid is for anything but the individual brands.

Your energies would be better placed questioning DLH management and baby management: just ask them WTF is going on?

The deal for bmi has been cleared, so far, and the reported target date for ink on the proverbial is 20 April: that's 13 working days, including today.

With the track record of DLH so far in concluding the sale you better hope they can pull a white rabbit out of the hat.

[Say again s l o w l y]

Uh Huh and if you understood what was going on, then what's happening is that Baby and Regional are simply not going to be sold by DLH, but by IAG. Not much has changed really apart from that.

Granite (if they do actually have the money and meet the pre-conditions this time) are still the most likely to buy Regional.
I know exactly who you are talking about in relation to the combined deal, but I also know that they pulled out a long time ago.

I think you've added 2+2 and come up with 8.

I am very suspicious of anyone who says that they know exactly what's going on, simply because nobody really has the entire picture available to them.

I'm hopeful that baby is going to be sold, but until the deal is signed, then anything can go wrong and it can fall apart right up until the last minute.

[INKJET]

The facts are that the sales procces is continuing and whislt this may or may not be completed before the 20th under DLH or it may continue under IAG, of course it can't go on indefinitely and it may fail to be sold, but other than the timescale nothing has changed, so let's give it until the 20th, clearly there is a willing seller and there are a number of willing buyers, we want the buyer to be the one that keeps the most jobs, not just pilots but baby staff and of course management.

I have no issue with you felling that I am being positive, even optimistic, but through my eyes I feel I'm also being realistic, let's just give the teams on both side space to seal this deal, if it falls apart, I will readily say I called it wrong.

Have a good Easter despite the snow!

[VC10man]

My wife and friend were going from EMA to Cologne in May, the flight has been cancelled.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/icon8.gif
I and 3 friends were going from EMA to Cologne in October, the flight has been cancelled.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/icons/icon8.gif
Is this the end?

By the way all you clever folk who have joked about "VirginBaby", I was the first poster to use VirginBaby in February. It does have a nice ring to it, come on Sir Beardie, give it a go!:D

[INKJET]

Yes I'm afraid it is the end, the end of CGN (Cologne) that is.

CGN has been a poor preforming route for most of the time its been on sale and was a route we operated at the request of LH who which ever way you looked at it covered the costs, so it stops 3 of May, sorry about that.

We can use that aircraft slot for something more profitable.

There (probably) has never been a Virgin-baby and there won't be with us either.

[frequentflyer2]

In the news section of their website, they have apologised for people receiving multiple e-mails from them. They claim 2011 bookings were uploaded in error. If you were informed of the cancellations by e-mail, perhaps it was all part of this glitch.

[INKJET]

Frequent flyer no its not an e-mail glitch last CGN is 3rd of May

[VC10man]

There has been a virgin baby, his name was Jesus. So I suppose the new airline could be named "JesusAir" :=



I apologise for the bad taste of my post, before I get some stick.

[Narrow Runway]

Surely the best name would be "Baby Jesus"?

[INKJET]

Not bad taste, but your right good time to stop digging a hole is when your in one, hope you get your German travel sorted without to much inconvienece. Cancelling is not something we do lightly these days, trust me, but there comes a point where there's no point an 50 or so on a 737 doesn't pay for the gas.

New name will be interesting!

[VC10man]

It looks like Germanwings from Manchester for my wife in May. She has booked a hotel for 4 nights in Cologne with a no cancel clause, it was cheaper, she's a bit mean.
I will wait a while for my trip in October to see what happens. I hope Easyjet come back and take over the Baby slots. It would be bad for Ryanair to have a monopoly IMO.
To me it looks as if Baby are finished, sorry Inkjet, but no one seems interested in taking over the loss making baby.
My daughter lives in Jersey and we fly there quite often, I hope this flight will continue.

[dog in park]

The tea leafs say it will be fine. Now enjoy Easter. :ok:

[FQTLSteve]

Hi VC10man. Just a little info which may be useful, but Dusseldorf is perfectly good alternative airport to visit Cologne. There are very frequent daily services from both MAN & BHX with BE & LH. Cologne is less than 50km distant easy by car and train, very short transfer time.

Hope you have a good time, there's a fantastic pub in the Old Market Square, full of character etc.....but you probably know about it!

[handsfree]

Peter's Bar I believe.

[nigel osborne]

Inkjet,

Sadly the bottom line here is that LH set a clear deadline, like any other business does in takeovers or mergers.

The companies coming to the table failed to meet that deadline after months of talks.

LH have been generous in extending the deadline, lets hope IAG does the same.

Nigel

[VC10man]

Thanks for the info, Steve. I will look into flying to Dusseldorf and will certainly try Peter's bar!

[easy6826]

I hope baby survives, I have ex easyjet colleagues working there now and really hope they will be flying this time next year

[Facelookbovvered]

Well a company that's cutting a single underperforming route CGN whilst in ownership talks shows commercial focus in my book, if it was to be closed at the end of Summer then why bother? or an immediate shutdown, again why bother?

Clearly some one has their eye on the ball and I wouldn't have thought CGN wouldn't be top of BA concerns. I hope baby gets a new owner soon.

[mart901]

Its been a while since WW cut anything and the new summer routes out of all 3 bases seem to be performing extremely well. Its not saying some other sweetener couldn't be offered to lure a buyer in. Be interesting to know what IAG,mean when they say they have plans for baby in the event of aquiring it.

[Granite City Express]

Well a company that's cutting a single underperforming route CGN whilst in ownership talks shows commercial focus in my book, if it was to be closed at the end of Summer then why bother? or an immediate shutdown, again why bother?Because until a sale is finally completed it is Business As Usual - anything else would be commercial suicide. Since the staff know nothing it would make sense to continue as though nothing has changed.

Its been a while since WW cut anything and the new summer routes out of all 3 bases seem to be performing extremely well. Is 2 base closures not enough? Unless they are showing consistent load factors in excess of 85% and corresponding good yields, I would be reluctant to say the routes are doing extremely well.

Be interesting to know what IAG,mean when they say they have plans for baby in the event of aquiring it.All communications from both IAG and WPS have made it clear that niether Baby nor Regional will be integrated into BA, so unless there is some desperately optimistic thinking in Hastings House I don't think IAG have any plans for either, with the exception of closure. If no winter schedule has been released for Baby yet then I guess that gives an indication - the baby website doesnt go beyond 31/10/12 btw.

I am willing to bet that the new owner of Baby is IAG... :sad:

dog in park
The tea leafs say it will be fine.If we have resorted to the Mystic Meg School of Management then we truley are f@ked! If you work for bmi in any management capacity you should be ashamed. The total lack of information has been appaling, certainly in ABZ we know the square root of shag all about OUR future and whether we will be able to pay the mortgage next month. I am starting to get angry at the way we, the staff, have been treated throughout this whole exercise, and still with less than 10 working days to go we STILL know NOTHING! :mad:

[thebayflyer]

I wish people would engage brain before posting. We are talking about some people potentially losing the roofs over their heads.

[mart901]

Given that Ryanair, king of load factors can't even hit the 80% mark at the moment dont you think expecting 85% consistently out of bmibaby is rather a big ask? I think its fair to say consolidating their limited resources into the midlands has been a good move, giving them a stronger presence.
As for lack of information I've been through 7 company take overs in my life and each time its felt like theres no information and everyone is being kept in the dark. If theres no worthwhile info nobodies going to contact you. Imagine if they did announce every bit of news - you would feel a lot more dejected in the long run.

[Say again s l o w l y]

GCE, we have been told that there will be no sale of Baby or Regional prior to the sale to IAG. They will become part of IAG and will then be either sold or disposed of by IAG.

Whether Granite or ASL/whoever end up buying the two business in the end, I don't think anyone has an answer on that at the moment.

All I'll say is good luck to my colleagues in all companies. This is a rubbish time for all of us at bmi.

[Sonic Bam]

We haven't been told what is planned because:
1. BA/IAG are not allowed to discuss or tell British Midland Airways Ltd what is definitely going to happen because this compromises the competition legislation and BA are totally paranoid about being prosecuted for this again
2. They (management) could tell us what they think might happen but what if it doesn't pan out that way? They would then be accused of being idiots for getting it wrong.
3. Potential buyers for Regional and baby will have non-disclosure clauses written into the agreements so management can't legally tell us what's going on. If they did then the potential buyer could sue the company.
4. I think some people in the company know what might happen with BA but again, they will be bound by non-disclosure agreements until the sale is completed.

I'm as pissed off as the next person not knowing about my future but I understand that I can't be told until the deal is done. We've just got to get on with it.

[Say again s l o w l y]

That has changed a bit since the deal was approved by the EU. We now know a bit more than we did about what is going to happen to mainline, for example 4 departments have already begun their consultation period required before redundancy. Many others will be starting that process from next week.

It's also clear that there will be very few people taken into BA from bmi apart from flight crew. Certainly people based at Donington are highly unlikely to be taken on at least. Now, we all knew that, but it's now been confirmed in briefings this week.

When it comes to what happens to regional or baby, then no-one in bmi is really in control of that. It's a buyers market there and you can't make any judgements until the deals are actually signed and sealed. At the moment, that hasn't happened for either company for whatever reasons.

[mart901]

Also baby is a brand in its own right that has its own unique and well marketed mascot, particuarly well known in the midlands and that carries weight to potential buyers. Regional is a subsidary type brand that doesnt really resound in anyones mind for anything.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

Apart from the bulk of your post being a complete waste of energy: have you actually seen the numbers - huge losses, passengers down 50% in 4 years etc etc this takes the biscuit -

that why FR parked 25%+ of their fleet this winter and lots of crew got forced unpaid leave.

You definitely don't know what you are talking about: parking was for a completely different reason.

[random_bandit]

One thing I find truly amusing is the pleasure some people seem to get in shooting down positivity...

Big win for you, you've proved someone is wrong, you've also made a lot of people feel worse about their future.

Nobody on here knows anything more thathasn't already been released...

[INKJET]

I think you'll find that I'm spot on.

But hey ho it's a free press. It's a baby thread.......

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

That will be why there are no plans to park anything for winter 12 :rolleyes:

[Granite City Express]

Inkjet, if you are who I suspect you are, you don't deserve to be in management. If you deliberately set out to drive a wedge between regional and baby then mission accomplished. Muppet.

Regional is an odd ball in that it has little or no control over its income, sailing on the coat tail of bmi mainline and its ad hoc work for BEline and Airbus and at this level is profitable, remove any or all of them and it is difficult to see a business case. It also has assets in the shape of its ERJ but the world has moved away from small jets due to high fuel costs, so out side of bmi/DLH/BA it is not clear to me how it could support it's self from an ABZ base, plus unlike baby it seems that DLH actually wants some one to pay for it?this is complete bull****. The reason that DLH can ask someone to pay for it because it has assets and has been profitable recently and has few large scale liabilities. Unlike baby which has NEVER made a profit, NO assets apart from a cartoon character and bucketful of liabilities and rented old aeroplanes with tired cabins.

If baby is in the best shape ever then you deserve to be closed down. You couldn't make MAN work which is a woeful example of management, and the idiotic excuse that CWL made losses in the winter so close it completely is stupidity of the highest level. You have to cap pax levels because your aeroplanes can't carry pax luggage and fuel from your new super base BHD to the med without tech stopping in EMA :eek: that's going to be a good move. NOT.

I could rip the rest of your Soviet style Baby propaganda to shreds but anyone who understands the business would see how ridiculous your assertions are. If Baby is so fantastic why are Lufty having to PAY others to to haul the wreckage away??? AND STILL THERE ARE NO BUYERS!!

You will of course now lump me in with all the anti-baby group, but then you seem to think it is fair game to attack my division with twisted logic and insults

[sjm]

If inkjet is who I suspect, he is ex-regional

[mart901]

On the subject of airlines pulling out of bases why do bmibaby get so much stick. What about BA who have pulled out of almost every airport in the UK, easyjet who pulled out of EMA, Ryanair who have pulled out of just about everywhere at some point including Manchester and Belfast City where they themselves couldn't operate full aircraft due to payload restrictions.

[Deep and fast]

You have to cap pax levels because your aeroplanes can't carry pax luggage and fuel from your new super base BHD to the med without tech stopping in EMA that's going to be a good move.
Granite city express
I can remember a significant number of times we left luggage golf clubs and guns behind on the Embraer due to max zero fuel weight so you are hardly talking from a position of strength and also the charters with ABZ crew that went to Portugal that didn't have a hope in hell of getting to destination without a tech stop and the man cag which was much the same. I am ex regional but don't throw stones in glass houses.
D and F

[Deep and fast]

Oh and didn't regional re finance some of the early Embraers to raise operating capital in 2009.
Granite you can only be at greater risk without the parents money and route influence.

D and f

Edited because I posted after too many beers!

[TURIN]

Say again s l ow l y

It's also clear that there will be very few people taken into BA from bmi apart from flight crew.

It is clear that you need to take the blinkers off.
BA require at least another 250 engineering staff-now. Gawd knows how many more due to natural wastage over the coming years.

The trouble is they are needed at LHR not EMA.

Be well and good luck all. You will need it. :ok:

[Say again s l o w l y]

There are 4800 people at bmi. 250 is a small percentage in my book. My blinkers have been off my head for months over this.

When it comes to job security, from what I can see/have been told, the closer you are to the actual operation, the better.

Donington Hall seems destined to close, whilst that wasn't said explicitly, there wasn't a lot of guesswork needed on that when we got a visit from BA.

Anyone who thinks that the majority of jobs at bmi are safe or likely to be taken on by BA, is I'm afraid, only fooling themselves.

Some people will of course be taken on, but the unpalatable reality is that the majority of us will have to find new employment in the near future.

Hopefully Regional and Baby won't have to go through this.

[ZeBedie]

We have now entered the profitable half of the year. Why is the buyer not getting on with it, rather than let LH/BA take the early Summer revenue?

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

bmi 4800 staff and about 50 airframes.

cf Ryanair with 8000 ish staff and 300 airframes.

No wonder they can't make money!

[Say again s l o w l y]

Yeah, thanks for that Einstein... It's a few more than 50 airframes though.

Though how many RYR staff don't show up on the staff numbers as they are contractors?

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

27 Airbus at bmi
19 ERJs at Regional
14 737s at baby

Do the sums Einstein!

I was being extremely generous: if you work on the 4800 at bmi divided by 27 frames it is even worse!

[Little Blue]

Erm, who's gonna tell him ? :sad:

[TSR2]

Erm, who's gonna tell him

That 50 is really 60 :ok:

[brian_dromey]

I would point out that FR are well known to have the majority of their aircraft crewed by "contractors" and are thus, not included in total numbers of FR employees. There are two benefits for FR, they can park up aircraft, or expand the schedule as market requires it with the nice benefit of being able to say how few employees they have compared to the average airline. I also think its fair to say FR have a pretty bare-bones HQ operation, no customer service department to speak of, no GDS to support, no e-mail address, no FFP, no ground handlers, no minatenance, etc. Their only point of contact is the website and a contracted call centre. I'm not saying this is wrong, but I'm saying if you are going to compare, FR is probably not the best, someone like easyJet might be more appropriate, or better still BA or Virgin.

[BasilFawlty]

FR have it's own maintenance facilities at DUB, PIK, STN and HHN.

[FR-]

Ryanair does have its down ground handing in Dublin. Maybe you should look how many people actually work in head office. The difference with regards to staffing levels is, everyone who is in ryanair is required, no one extra. And endless middle management walking about.

fr-

[The Royal Family]

endless middle management walking about.


Welcome to bmi :ugh:

[mart901]

Don't FR also do their own handling in NOC?

[FR-]

Yes your correct about NOC, I think FR did in MJV aswell but I cant be sure.
So when are we expecting to hear whats going on with Baby?

fr-

[nitefiter]

before last xmas mate!!!!

[AirGuru]

We can only expect a Baby announcement after the sale of BMI has been completed with IAG in my opinion. What happened to the two interested parties that were rumoured a while ago, one was a EU based one and one was Welsh if i recall ?

[Arkroyal]

FR

It is really quite simple.

Since October last year we've been told we'll all know in two weeks.

In two weeks time, when we know nothing we'll be told after another 14 days.

After 14 days when we are told Jack sh1t we'll know after a further fortnight.

Simples :rolleyes:

[Flying Wild]

Apparently the Welsh lot were preferred buyers until they realized they had their sums wrong. DLH went back to the EU group with an unrealistic timescale to complete. it'll probably complete after IAG take possession, but then again could happen before that.

[AirGuru]

Thank you Flying Wild ! Hmm, yes that does now look possible then ! So there aren't any current bidders then, at least not speculated by the media. I believe that the welsh ones involved previously wanted to set up their own airline, but must have made some serious miscalculation when it came to Baby !

[Flying Wild]

Wind back the clock several months and both the Welsh and EU groups were in the frame (probably the two term sheets previously mentioned). Two bids were submitted to DLH, one significantly lower than the other. DLH in their collective wisdom went with the unknown Welsh quantity and look where we are now.
If they'd taken advice from those in the know and hadn't just gone with the cheapest option, perhaps we wouldn't be in this situation now and Baby would have an idea of it's future... As it is they had to go cap in hand to the EU group and ask them to proceed.

[AirGuru]

Cant have looked very good for the Baby representatives then !
I just do not understand, why DLH went with the lower offer ? And then why the welsh group pulled out. Surely, if you had the intention, you would just put your head down and go for it. But that doesnt seem the case ?

[sjm]

If the rumours at baby are true, you couldn't make it up, if it wasn't mine and others futures on the line I would find it funny....it amazing that a company the size of LH didn't know what a shower this lot were.:mad:

Disclaimer : I have no factual evidence to back this up( purely hearsay) no animals were hurt.

You haven't seen me right!

Standing by for the incoming phone call .........:cool:

[runway30]

One of the directors of the company was declared bankrupt before the term sheet was signed.........you'd think that Lufthansa would have noticed.

[eastern wiseguy]

If folks like INKJET are to be believed .Baby has a heap going for it.......why not a staff buyout?

[AirGuru]

Yes, indeed R30, i would have thought that any potential buyers were financially checked out by DLH before any term sheet was signed ! True shame, i thought that they could have done well at Baby, but hey ho, im sure baby will find a buyer.
Then again, the only thing going for it is its amazing staff members, and its established brand and route network. Other than that, there are severely outdated aircraft still in operation, and a huge saddle of debt for any buyer to jump onto ! If i was interested in getting an airline, i would rather start afresh than to acquire baby, if im honest. Whereas an established airline could say the same, why would we need baby's fleet etc. where we have our own, and are quite capable of expanding by 14 Aircraft. But as i said, FR and EZY among others would love to see the demise of baby, to hook into the market at baby's bases.
Personally though, i wish they are saved, a good, historic British airline with British bias and great staff who i have dealt with before. Don't want to see them gone to waste !

[Flying Wild]

Cant have looked very good for the Baby representatives then !
I just do not understand, why DLH went with the lower offer ? And then why the welsh group pulled out. Surely, if you had the intention, you would just put your head down and go for it. But that doesnt seem the case ?


My Bold. I understand that they may have neglected to factor in the massive maintenance costs which are looming on the horizon for the classic 737s.
Sounds like a pretty basic thing to get wrong.

From my perspective, Shame on DLH for not looking into the background of prospective takers. They've wasted several months now and it isn't helping morale.

[Justin Cyder-Belvoir]

What a brilliant plan :D

If folks like INKJET are to be believed .Baby has a heap going for it.......why not a staff buyout?

There are enough staff to make it viable:ugh:

Over to Inkjet for the reasons why not:D

[TwinAisle]

Can I suggest that some recent posters who clearly know nothing but speculate a lot just do everyone a favour and shut up? I refer particularly to AirGuru - or should we call you Aviation Wales, Benjiman or what? - and FlyingWild - several posts of speculation based around a speculative newspaper article adds up to nothing.

Let those who are involved do what they need to do; you aren't involved, those that are will be under serious NDAs and won't be writing on here, and all you are doing is adding to the tension amongst people with a career interest in this affair. Stop it.

TA

[Say again s l o w l y]

There's a lot of total nonsense been posted recently about Baby by people who really do seem to know naff all.

[MANTHRUST]

Rumour Network?

[Say again s l o w l y]

I would use a phrase that more closely resembled "Rollocks Network" rather than Rumour in this case.

[pwalhx]

There is a subtle difference between rumour and speculation, unfortunately I suspect there has been more of the latter.

[INKJET]

The BR may lift a little tomorrow!

[nitefiter]

lifting it a little won't help, from the general mood amongst the troops it needs to go ways up.

[BAladdy]

The sale of BD to IAG is on track to be completed in just over a week. Under the terms of the deal LH must sell WW by the start of May. If they fail to do so then they are required to pay compensation to IAG to cover the cost of disposing of WW.

According to the following article IAG have already a drawn up a plan of what to do with WW should LH fail to sell it.

What future for Bmi Regional and Bmibaby? | ABTN (http://www.abtn.co.uk/news/0317190-what-future-bmi-regional-and-bmibaby)

I am guessing that the IAG plan to do one of three things:

1. They have a buyer lined up already

2. Pay another carrier to take WW of there hands as they did with BACON to BE

3. Close the airline down and dispose of it's assets

[sunday8pm]

Which outcome do you consider most likely?

[1234567]

To the bmibaby team,



You will have now read Wolfgang’s update with respect to the proposed integration of bmi into BA.



With respect to bmibaby, discussions with potential buyers continue. I appreciate this process has taken some time and we are all keen that a conclusion is reached soon. We still have time to complete a sale and bmi will continue to support the bmibaby business until the integration process is complete.



Throughout this period our business has continued to operate and trade very well, and I am very thankful to all of you for the professionalism and commitment shown. In order to remain attractive to a potential acquirer we need to ensure our business continues to perform well, and I therefore ask that you keep all energy channelled into driving our business forward as normal. It really is very much business as usual at the moment.



As soon as more information becomes available we will update you.



Thanks,



Julian



How long will the goodwill last without any concrete information?

[the_penguin]

Whew - BALPA is on the job and is going to save us!
I feel safer already. I could be a very grateful little penguin if all goes well.:rolleyes:

[nitefiter]

yes i can sleep sound at night now as well, i feel supremely confident that BALPA ,will save the baby and regional guys.
I'm really glad i paid them all that money.
Does anyone know what the redundancy terms are??

[DomyDom]

I really hope everyone at BMIBaby is okay and that they are bought out while minimising job losses. A little suprised to see the lashing out at BALPA. Hopefully Baby employees (Inkjet?) were giving feedback when the current 'crazy gang' managment were 'leading' with their 'dump loyal MAN customers/expand at MAN/retranch to BHX/go to the Canaries/consolidate at East Midlands strategy':ugh:. Oh Dear Oh Dear Oh Dear.....

[nitefiter]

Lashing out??? lets see who gets hung out to dry!! then the "lashing" will really start. If anyone out there, is waiting for BALPA to save them, then they are sadly deluding themselves!!! Fact..:mad:
I was once proud to wear the uniform and be a part of what was a great airline. Shame on them!!!!!
Baby has been raped and pillaged by mainline constraints , no investment, and bad management decisions for years, and now we are going to pay the price.
I dont blame our current management for this mess, they have been shackled from above to a basket case at LHR for years .

[ZeBedie]

Is it possible that the potential buyer is waiting for the sale to IAG to complete, in the hope of getting a better price than they would have got from Lufthansa?

[Erwin Schroedinger]

I may be missing something here, but when Lufty agreed to sell bmi and baby for less than bmi alone, surely they shot themselves in the foot.

Nobody in their right minds would want to pay good money for baby if they could avoid it. Anyone interested in acquiring baby for nothing would surely wait for the almost inevitable acquisition by IAG and take it off WW's hands. Even with such a deal, both parties win. Lufty pays for it.

WW has stated, before completion of the bmi purchase, that he already has plans in place to dispose of baby. Could it be that baby employees fearful of IAG acquisition are, in reality, lined up for a pleasant surprise? For a while, unless losses are resolved, at least.

Business Air ditto, perhaps? Can't see why not.

Or am I being overly optimistic or just plain dim? :confused:

[random_bandit]

Erwin

I reckon you're right on the money mate. Lufty seem to have put the baby sale on the backburner to hurry through the bmi sale, but this will ultimately cost them more...but at least they'll have ditched the £4m a day loss maker (is it per day?)

[runway30]

Er....£4 million per day! Somebody didn't do well in maths at school did they?