Anti-loan dad

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Hi guys. So here's the deal: I obviously want to become a pilot. But my brother kinda stands in my way... he is planning on doing helicopter training. This is very expensive and our poor old father will have to foot the bill.
I want to be an aeroplane pilot, and I know the training for this is expensive too. So I would go the modular route as it will probably be a little less expensive than going down the whole integrated path. That said, it will still cost a fair amount of money and my dad would probably - (I'm estimating here) - pay about 25K. If that. He is a surgeon for anybody wanting to know the situation concerning dad. Even though he would technically be able to fund all my training, I'm sure you all know what I mean when I say I would hate to sponge off my dad too much.
That's where the loan would come in. He is totally (completely!) against racking up debts at such a young age - which I can understand. But what do you guys think? Is it possible to pay it back before my hair turns grey? Is there anyone here who has done this? Do you regret it? Is it very hard to pay back??

Thanks a lot :}

[OutsideCAS]

Follow your dad's advice, wait and re-assess in future years as to whether it is a path you still wish to follow. Now i'm afraid is not the time to rack up loan debt - your young, you can wait it out and reap the benefit when things improve.

[propellerhead01]

I took out a personal loan a year ago for part of my flying training, however if i could i would of 'sponged' of my parents. if you can avoid stacking up your monthly out goings it will make things alot easier whilst training:ok:

[AlexDeltaCharlie]

My £0.02

I've been thinking a lot recently about my own plans in flying- you and I are, according to our profiles, 17. At our age we're pretty fortunate in that we've a lot of time ahead of ourselves and, despite what the integrated schools told me at their open days, I'm reasonably confident that there isn't a dire shortage of 19/20 year old 200hr airline cadets at the moment or just round the corner.

I believe that at 17 flight training, university and/or saving up with a full-time job needn't be mutually exclusive. Obviously, it's not for me to give you advice, but my analysis of the situation is that there's not really any rush to get into any flight training yet, especially as a seventeen year old with all your options still available. A fATPL is a qualification to fly aeroplanes and if there aren't any pilot jobs available, it's an expensive thing to maintain with renewals, medical et cetera. Not to mention the loan repayments as well.

Unless of course you need a girlfriend in which case Cabair say they have the right career for us! For £70,000, of course :}
“Love is in the air!� - courtesy of Cabair - Press Release - Digital Journal (http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/579455)

My plans, in case you were wondering, go something along the lines of this (note that I'm not really interested in the airlines-I'm more into whizzwheels and pistons then Fly by Wire and magenta lines, although that's just me):

Finish PPL> Go to Uni (which happens to have a very reasonably priced flying club!)> Finish with more life experience and people skills > Find suitable work, ideally in the aviation industry> network, approaching people as a colleague or fellow weekend bimbler rather than a stranger looking for work > Finish modular CPL/IR in my spare time with no debt > look for ideal GA job whilst working (no rush, nothing to lose).

No P2F, no big upfront payments, no £1000 per month loan repayments, no £200 skills assessments. Obviously there's no 'partner airlines' and I won't get any gold epaulettes for training, and my chances of ever getting to buy my own uniform as an F/O for Ryanair are slim.

On the other hand, there's nothing to stop me enjoying my PPL at the weekends in the meantime, even if, God forbid, I end up visiting relatives and fly-ins and build up hours in an 'unstructured manner'. If I never find that dream bush-instructor-air taxi flying career, I'll still be a hobby pilot and an enthusiastic one at that.

If I could borrow and pay £80k knowing that the school won't go bust overnight and I'd be 100% guaranteed a long career full of the sort of adventures I've read about in 'Fate is The Hunter' I'd be down the bank tomorrow morning!

I apologise if this post came across as jaded and cynical, but I do try to make an objective assessment of the modern aviation industry, and to me it just doesn't make sense any more to go into training as soon as I finish sixth form given my personal interests and circumstances. Yours will of course be different and I wish you the best of luck with your career!

a wannabe struggling with the question of what he wants to be or not to be!

[Lightning Mate]

however if i could i would of 'sponged' of my parents. if you can avoid stacking up your monthly out goings it will make things alot easier whilst training

That sums up the British standards of English education very well!

[Whirlygig]

he is planning on doing helicopter training. This is very expensive and our poor old father will have to foot the bill. More fool Daddy then.

Sorry, but is bro' the prodigal son? Helicopter training costs up to CPL/IR with ATPL theory credits costs THREE times that of aeroplank.

Whilst one should never criticise another's parenting skills, I would have thought it's a bit rich to fund one child through rotary training and give nowt to the other?

Or is this whole thread hypothetical? :hmm:

[student88]

I'd be extremely hesitant on training at the moment. No one really knows what Europe is about to do. Airlines here are still somewhat fragile and it's being reflected in other parts of the world now too.

Get a job and save money like you've never saved before. Do as little of your training on credit as possible. When you start seeing green shoots of recovery then start thinking about training.

I did more of my training on credit than I planned/would have liked to. Paying £500+ a month on loan repayments for the next 5 years won't be pleasant. Yes it'll be worth it in the end but theres no point suffering when you have the time to save money. Yes, it's less than most CTC/OAA students are paying back but that doesn't make it ok.

[propellerhead01]

That sums up the British standards of English education very well!
that's what you get for using pprune on the mobile.
Thanks for pointing that out,i will try to be a better person from now on. :hmm:

[pudoc]

Could you get a loan from your Dad and pay him back when you can? I'm sure he's nicer than the banks.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

OutsideCAS, I don't want to wait! But I guess being impatient and making the wrong decisions now will certainly not benefit me later on, you're right :sad:
average-punter, I have heard about the BBVA loans, and you're right, they look far from desirable! :yuk:
propellerhead01, trust me, if you're tight with your dad, it's a terrible feeling having to take large amounts of money from him. Have to think about his future plans too! haha
Whirlygig, sorry, I maybe didn't express it clearly but my brother hasn't actually started training and therefore dad hasn't made any financial decisions yet. You have to remember though, dad doesn't even know that I want to become a pilot yet!!!! :uhoh:
student88, thank you for the advice. Saving like hell sounds about right! What kind of licence do you have? How can you afford to pay that back? DO you have another job or are you flying?
And pudoc, I suppose it's possible but the way things are sounding in the industry, I wouldn't be able to pay him back for a looong while!

Thanks!

[propellerhead01]

I take your point TheFirstDohrnPilot but as pudoc says the banks are not very nice at all.

And im sure you dad wont expect to make money off you, i took out a £15000 personal loan with interest ill end up paying 20k back.

Try and avoid it if poss, ive got a few friends that had to turn away first flying jobs because they wouldn't be able to afford repayments.... bummer!!!

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Yea, you're right dad probably is nicer than the banks! He wouldn't claw back money from me like the banks seem to be doing to you! Unlucky mate. And ye, that is a major bummer indeed! But surely any job is better than none? Should they not just have accepted the job anyway? haha I don't know their situation so sorry if I'm being a bit naiive :ok:

[Whirlygig]

sorry, I maybe didn't express it clearly but my brother hasn't actually started training and therefore dad hasn't made any financial decisions yet. You have to remember though, dad doesn't even know that I want to become a pilot yet!!!! Well, you did say that your "poor old father will have to foot the bill" ... that does rather sound like a done deal. One of the reasons why correct English is so important - it prevents misunderstandings. I took your comment to mean that your father was duty bound to pay for your brother's helicopter training whereas that is not the case?

Anyway, maybe it's about high-time you actually talked your parents (that will include your mother by the way) about your career aspirations. Until you have talked to them, there is no point in pre-empting their answers and opinions. Get in there first before bro' does. ;)

[Grass strip basher]

You are 17. Get down the local flying club and get involved. Get your face known. Help behind the bar (when old enough). wash aircraft, scab backseat rides with the regulars etc etc. Anything to get into the air (flying lessons for birthdays/christmas etc). Go to a university with an air squadron (free flying!)etc etc. All of this should be your first steps that you should be doing NOW. The financing CPL, ATPL etc should come several years down the line for someone of your age. One step at a time.

If you really really want to do this make sure you are fully aware what it involves. Why does your dad not know you want to be a pilot? Is this because you have never shown any interest in aviation/you just had a moment of enlightenment? If so how do you really know this is what you want to do for the next 40 years of your life??

You are 17 and most likely have never had a full time job. I am not meaning to be rude but you probably have no REAL concept of the value of money. You have years and years ahead of you. Maybe plan on entering full time training in your mid-20s and work for a few years to save 10-20 grand to take the edge off any debt. That will give you much better perspective. You will still be considered "Young" (other than by the RAF... who aren't really recruiting much at the moment anyway)

That your father is a surgeon puts you in a very lucky position. But it will be all the sweeter if you go out there and do a bit of grassroots flying first & come up with a proper plan to achieve your goal... much better than "daddy can I have some money please"..... but you seem to already know that.
Good luck... and get down to you local flying club... :ok:

[paco]

Just to put things in perspective - you will be taking on the equivalent of a mortgage. Given that you will have to live somewhere as well, you will be paying that twice over before you start eating.

I know you're keen, but you will have to learn to be patient when you start flying, so you may as well start now! :)

Having said all that, it isn't impossible - I'm sure with the right motivation you will get there - just don't lose sight of it in those dark hours. I would suggest however that you can fly aeroplanes and still have fun without being in the airlines. Firebombing, etc. I lost count of the big jet pilots who used to come and admire the DHC2 (Beaver) I was flying and wished they were still flying one.

Good luck

[magicmick]

Of course you (and your brother) could look to the military who will not only train you at the tax payers expense but will actually pay you a wage while you’re doing it. Also when you decide to leave the military world and enter civvie life as a pilot, the military training will be well respected by civvie employers.

It is true that post the recent SSDR the military is currently laying people off, however it is interesting to note that in the latest tranche of RN redundancies there is no requirement for pilots or observers to apply and having spoken to a senior RN observer recently he reckons that the RN are desperately short of aircrew at the moment.

You’re still relatively young, get the A levels done, consider a degree (many unis have University Air Squadrons associated with them which will provide you 30hrs good quality SEP training at no charge to you with no obligation to join the military on completion).

Just a thought as to how you and your brother might save the old man a whole wedge of money.

Good luck with whatever you (and your brother) choose to do.

EDIT: Of course if you don't fancy the BS and discipline of the military or being shot at by nasty people, perhaps you could convince your brother that it might be the way ahead for him and you poach the cash that your dad had put aside for his helicopter training!!!!

[MartinCh]

grass strip basher is quite reasonable.

At your age, if you want to fly fixed wing, you better get involved. At your age, you can get lots of heavily discounted and FREEE flying and I don't mean only cheapo or free gliding (improves your stick skills etc).

Though I can feel for your brother. He won't get as easy way into job with helicopters. But hey ho, rack up a debt and daddy will cough up, if secured on your/his house, isn't it so?

You can do your training fairly cheaply. You can do your CPL and SE IR, thus saving on renewals when there would be no good hiring market later on, the SE IR keeping the ATPL theory credits and then when time right, do your ME IR.
Actually, NO. Just do the CPL/MEIR modules once the job market is good. Beforehand get other requirements out of way. BTW, you can use some gliding PIC towards the CPL issue 200hrs, but it's not worth the aerotow only training in terms of hours/expense. If you like flying, gliding is great fun and winch launch training is cheap for youngsters with almost nil membership and reduced flying.
If you're involved in gliding, get your RAF/air league scholarship for PPL(A). Get some towing in over the summer - PIC time for you. Do whatever extra XC time before or after.

There are many ways to save cash while building skills, airmanship, knowledge. Oh, and btw, doing Uni that can get you reasonably paid job, is important, too. There are people against it, but trust me, it's easier to study when you're young and staying at home with parents. Also saves money for living cost.

I spent best part of my 20's working on my rotary (and fixed wing alongside, partially) training/career and I know value of money. When at your age, I couldn't even dare to hope for aviation career due to my background and life. So yeah, count yourself lucky to be in well-off family, in the UK, at that age.

EDIT: Just my personal opinion, but, why don't you quit that ridiculous motto/location in your profile, FDP? For someone in your circumstances, it makes more fun of you than some benefit and I doubt it'd impress chicks this way on this 'aviation anoraks' forum anyway.. :}

[Aware]

Your poor Dad with two of you who want to be Pilots :{:{

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Whirlygig , bro is already in there... nothing I can do. And my mum knowing about this is irrelevant because she lives in a different country and has pretty much no say in what I do. But I guess the time will come... :E
Grass strip basher, I just want to say firstly and most importantly: my interest in flying was not brought about by some random recent enlightenment. I have loved the idea of piloting, planes and GA since I was really young. I have travelled about a lot and love airports, planes and everything that goes with it! :} Now that that's cleared up, I like your idea of going down to my local airfield and having a look about - seeing if I can help out or just watch. But I live somewhere where that's sadly not possible. There's a little airport which does nothing apart from landing flights from Aberdeen, Edinburgh, Glasgow and that kinda stuff. The only jobs there are luggage handlers or working behind a desk... These things aren't open to me. Such a shame. Also can I really wait that long till I start training? Will the training costs not just soar and never really be reduced? Will the demand ever shoot up again? What do you think?
magicmick, I don't really fancy a military career. But now that you mention it, my bro has thought about joining the marines... maybe I could convince him... I like your thinking! :E
MartinCh, I know I'm lucky. But I don't think Uni is for me... don't have the grades... :( And OK, I shall change my location but... chicks? On PPRune? I think not... haha!
I know, Aware, poor guy! But that's just how it is! He would rather I become a doctor or lawyer but... no, I wanna fly! :}

Thanks

[BerksFlyer]

Studied harder at school got good A levels and gone to uni studying law.

There is a strange infatuation with law degrees on this site. There is no shortage of aspiring lawyers.

[Aware]

If you gotta fly you have to I understand that.

I taught a Doctor once to fly, he then went from being a Doctor to a fund manager in the City. Why because his Dad forced him to be a Doctor and he never wanted to be.

For what its worth my Kids are following non aviation careers having seen all the heartache this industry causes, but both have expressed an interest in learning to fly and gaining a PPL. So who knows, but I personally being an instructor examiner now wouldnt recommend spending much money on this industry at present, do it on the side down the modular route by all means, still dodgy though with so few getting jobs at the moment.

Have two plans one of then can be aviation but have another one as a backup, the Dr thing would be a good back up, many of my clients are surgeons and they earn twice or three times what an airline captain earns.

[magicmick]

Hi FDP, glad you appreciate the workings of my warped mind. If your bro wants to fly helicopters for the Royal Machines he will have to join as a commissioned officer, the bootnecks used to allow non commissioned to fly but not any more. After officer basic training he would then have to serve a period as a junior troop commander with at least one operational tour under his belt before he could apply for flying training. After that he would have to pass medical and flying aptitude tests before starting flying training. He could not join RM straight away as a pilot in the way that he could join RAF or RN as a pilot.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

AIMINGHIGH123, that's all fine and sounds ideal. But lets be honest, BerksFlyer and john_smith are probably right. You need heaps of luck and you have to be very smart. If I had the grades I probably would go and do law or medicine. This may sound cheesy but that's why aviation is perfect for me. You don't need excellent grades and it goes hand in hand with what I'm passionate about. It's still hard work (and you still have to be intelligent!), of course, and the pay may not be as great as in medicine or law, but, to me, it's the best job ever. Sitting in an office all day pushing paper, or doing endoscopies... no thanks!
magicmick, sounds pretty tough. I shall suggest it to him nonetheless... :}
Aware, taking it slow, doing the modular. That's my plan :)

Thanks everyone

[206Fan]

There is a strange infatuation with law degrees on this site. There is no shortage of aspiring lawyers.

Indeed. There is a serious shortage of Electrical Engineers though.

[mad_jock]

Why is that davy?

Have they been clamping down on curb crawling again?

[206Fan]

Not enough people studying it plus the majority of Engineer Job Vacancies available at the minute are looking Electrical and Software Engineers. A friend of mine got his Full Degree Course and Two Year Masters in Electrical Engineering paid for through a Scholarship. Thats how short it is.

[aviofreek]

Do you like flying or do you just like the idea of being a pilot (Ray-Bans, uniforms, flight attendants, traveling, fancy hotels...)? I'm not trying to be mean, just you remind me of me when I was 17. And 18. And 19... Up until a while ago...

If you're really passionate about aviation, there are way better payed jobs out there. Think about Licensed Aircraft Maintenence Engineer or ATC.
And if you really are passionate about flying those jobs would provide plenty of fun hours in the air. And even fill a few holes in poor ol dad's budget after he coughs up all the money for heli training.

I'll leave you with a thought of an airline pilot whom I have met on my medical: Being an airline pilot is like eating your favorite cake. If you eat it every day, eventually you'll get sick of it.

[pudoc]

Why is that davy?

Because electrics is the most boring and tedius thing I have ever come across...excluding the Antiques Road Show.

[206Fan]

Because electrics is the most boring and tedius thing I have ever come across...excluding the Antiques Road Show.

More so to do with the shear amount of Maths.

[Hovermonkey]

If your brother wants to fly rotary from zero, he could seriously do a lot worse than the military. He obviously won't have to pay a penny and the flying is about as varied as it gets - I'd try and push him that way if I were you - maybe you can then try to get funds from your dad! :E

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

aviofreek, how would you get to spend fun hours in the air as an ATC? And no, I don't really care about the pay. The things you mention, (Ray-Bans, etc) are a nice touch, but it's like you say - the novelty will wear off...
Besides, I don't even like shades!! haha. And you can't be telling me that ATC and engineering are half as fulfilling as flying :eek:
What happened ''up until a while ago''???

Thanks

[Genghis the Engineer]

And you can't be telling me that ATC and engineering are half as fulfilling as flying

I can't speak for ATC, but my career in engineering has been every bit as fulfilling as my career in flying and I would hate to give it up any more than I would my flying.

Delivering a really well flown flight, or teaching somebody to fly a new aeroplane, is fantastic.

Solving the problem of why something failed on an aeroplane, certifying a new piece of kit, or seeing something that you designed built and flying, is every bit as satisfying as a good flight.

I'm not a maintenance engineer (well I am, but not to the standards of many of the people you'll find on Pprune), but I certainly know maintainers who get a similar level of satisfaction from delivering a serviceable aeroplane on time against a lot of adversity, or finding ways to incorporate a difficult modification.

G

(Chartered Engineer with PhD, Commercial Pilot with instructor and test pilot qualifications)

[wiggy]

Chartered Engineer with PhD, Commercial Pilot with instructor and test pilot qualifications



Blimey Genghis that's a genuinely impressive CV you've got there - but tell me, what do you did you do with all your spare time when you were younger? :ok:

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Hovermonkey, my plans exactly :E
And G, sounds like you enjoy what you do a lot! Nice.
And wiggy I think our friend Genghis wouldn't have had much spare time with that kind of CV... ;)

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

DelayReducer, that's not patronising - it's good advice. I don't think I would start training right away. I will certainly look for some kind of work, though, to take the edge off my training costs. Doing it piece by piece should help too :ok:
And, I would love a job in the aviation industry but what's open to me if I don't go to uni?

Thanks

[Genghis the Engineer]

Blimey Genghis that's a genuinely impressive CV you've got there - but tell me, what do you did you do with all your spare time when you were younger? :ok:

My wife claims that I'm incapable of sitting still doing nothing!

G

[cgwhitemonk11]

Thought I'd add my own experience...

Finished school in 2006, got the second highest grades in the county. Offered Law in one of the best University's in Dublin. Delighted as many uncles and also my mother worked in varying parts of company/family law.
Took a year out to decide what I wanted to do, got a job in a bank for a year and decided sitting in an office just wasnt for me and randomly decided that I was becoming a pilot.

Asked my parents could they afford it and they said they would struggle but they would scrape it together (they are divorced too so I had to to have that tough conversation twice!):ugh:

Paid the €2000 deposit myself and from that years work I saved up €12,000 and basically paid for my living expenses for the 12 of the 18 months I was in flight school in a foreign country.
Passed all 14 ATPL exams at first attempt with an average of 97.7% and passed all practicals first time. The world had turned upside down a few months after I started flight school so my parents struggled and alot of nights I sat awake worried would they be able to do it but they did and I could never repay the faith they put in me and am so proud of them.

Then in 2009 I fell for the hoax of a A320 type rating with no job and paid over €20,000 to fly that big jet for an hour. (My lawyer uncle footed that bill and I will have to pay him back one day, he hated his hugely paying London City job and quit that same year).

Anyway cutting to the chase:

I was shocked I hadnt walked into a job which I'm fairly sure I could have done in any other career. It was a lesson I needed to learn, I had worked in bars as a kid so I got a job in a bar in Dublin and started saving. Then I got a job in a bigger bar, and now I work in the busiest one. I worked my ass off for a year, took three months off to go to the Caribbean and fly over there(which was my dream and the original reason why I chose to become a pilot). Came home and got my old job back luckily and started saving again.

Now I've been home 5 months and my savings have been good and I have put myself in a position where if I have to P2F it I have that choice, but so far I have said no to the ' great offers'.

My point is this: go get a job, or do what previous posters have said and get the military to pay for it (great idea in my opinion!) because its all about the benjamins in this business these days, but it can be done if you work hard.

I'm 23, have around 500 hours total time, an A320 rating and all the time in the world to pay back my parents for their help. I calculate that I've paid for approx 30% of my training out of my own pocket, now that might not seem like much but when you consider that 30% is almost €40,000 it seems like alot!

Best of luck and hope you find my experience helpful.

[aviofreek]

Sorry man, what I ment was, licensed ATC and AMEs get well payed to support all the flying you want.

I mean if you like flying as in "being the pilot and manipulating controls in order to actively fly an airplane" don't think you'll enjoy much working for airlines... That's my humble opinion, all the airline CPLs and ATPLs here are more than welcome to prove me wrong...

At the end you'll end up spending hard earned money flying gliders or aerobatics over the weekend to get that flying fix. Somehow spending SH!+ loads of money in order to "get where you wanna be", killing yourself to repay it, just to end up spending more money on something else, doesn't seem logical. (Hope that answers your "What happened a while ago" question)

I just think, after a few bad financial decisions of my own, you should earn some money first before you spend it all

[Poeli]

I completely agree with aviofreek.
Don't think lightly about €10k. Try working that together, it's hard (I am someone with some expierence doing jobs from airports to factorys)

And please don't underestimate the feeling of finishing a project where you worked on for 2-3 years as an engineer. It might even be more fulfilling than flying an Airbus/Boeing for those 2-3 years.

[TheFirstDohrnPilot]

Thanks for that cgwhitemonk11! Definite helpful and a nice story (smart chap!). Where did you do most of your training if I may ask? And, why didn't you go the modular route? That way you could have worked and trained at the same time, couldn't you? Also... you got a job now after all that expensive training...?!
aviofreek... I see what you meant now! haha

Thanks