U-28 crash Djibouti

[c53204]

Anyone have information on the U-28 crash nr Djibouti?

[Kreuger flap]

I have this little bit of information.

The U-28 was returning from a mission in support of Operation Enduring Freedom.

Captain Hall, 30, was a U-28A pilot on his seventh deployment. He entered the Air Force in 2004, receiving his commission through the Reserve Officer Training Corp at The Citadel. He had been assigned to the 319th SOS at Hurlburt Field since 2007 and had more than 1,300 combat flight hours.

Captain Whitlock, 29, was also a U-28A pilot and was on his fifth deployment. He entered the Air Force in 2006, receiving his commission through the Officer Training School. He had been assigned to the 319th SOS and then to the 34th SOS at Hurlburt Field since 2008 and had more than 800 combat flight hours.

Lieutenant Wilkens, 26, was a combat systems officer on his third deployment. He entered the Air Force in 2009, receiving his commission through the Air Force Academy. He had been assigned to the 34th SOS at Hurlburt Field since April 2011 and had more than 400 combat hours.

Airman Scholten, 26, was a mission systems operator assigned to the 25th IS at Hurlburt Field since 2009. He enlisted in the Air Force in 2007. He had more than 600 combat hours in six different airframes and was on his third deployment.

"The Hurlburt Field community expresses our deepest condolences to the family of the crew, and we share in their sorrow. Our efforts are focused on helping them through this difficult time," said Col. Jim Slife, commander of the 1st Special Operations Wing. "We will never forget the valuable contributions these brave men made to their country and community."

The U-28A is a single engine, manned fixed wing aircraft developed around the Pilatus PC-12 airframe that provides intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities in support of special operations forces.

The cause of the crash is unknown at this time. The Air Force is committed to a thorough investigation, and more information will be released as it becomes available.

[1771 DELETE]

Apart from the 1st pilot, there was not very much experience in this crew, is this normal for the USAF?

[Courtney Mil]

I would say that's a reasonable crew for any air force. Solid, experienced captian and some first tourists in the other seats. We all send first tourists to war, quite rightly. We can't aford to have aircrew sitting around waiting for experience before we send them off to their job.

Does that sound right?

[wiggy]

I think you're right Courtney, looks like the aircraft commander had 6 years service, all the others look like they were first/early second tourists....(Blimey even you and I were first tourists once :E).

All that said it's another sad loss and also a reminder that military aviation is, generally, a young "persons" game...

[c53204]

Exactly right. Experience only comes from doing what it is your trying to gain experience on/with.

Worth noting that a considerable number of high hour (experienced) aircrew have made fatal mistakes.

[tarantonight]

When things go wrong, why do 'We' always comment on lack of experience??, If all of the crew were on their first operational deployment, fair enough. We all start on the first rung of the ladder, whatever we do.

TN.

[MrBernoulli]

When things go wrong, why do 'We' always comment on lack of experience??Because it might be a part of the cause of the accident?

[zondaracer]

This actually is a normal crew make-up. The Aircraft Commander was a mid-level Captain, almost 8 years in service and probably been mission qualified on his MWS for 5 years.

Once you go up in rank past Captain, the flying hours decrease. In AFSOC, a typical 20 year flying career might yield only 3000 hours.

[4Greens]

They are talkning about combat hours. There maybe different hours away from the front line.

[GreenKnight121]

I think you're right Courtney, looks like the aircraft commander had 6 years service, all the others look like they were first/early second tourists....(Blimey even you and I were first tourists once http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif).

Excuse me?

7th deployment, 5th deployment, 3rd deployment, 3rd deployment.

Just which of this very experienced crew were the "first/early second tourists" you are referring to?

Captain Hall, 30, was a U-28A pilot on his seventh deployment. He had been assigned to the 319th SOS at Hurlburt Field since 2007 and had more than 1,300 combat flight hours.

Captain Whitlock, 29, was also a U-28A pilot and was on his fifth deployment. He had been assigned to the 319th SOS and then to the 34th SOS at Hurlburt Field since 2008 and had more than 800 combat flight hours.

Lieutenant Wilkens, 26, was a combat systems officer on his third deployment. He had been assigned to the 34th SOS at Hurlburt Field since April 2011 and had more than 400 combat hours.

Airman Scholten, 26, was a mission systems operator assigned to the 25th IS at Hurlburt Field since 2009. He had more than 600 combat hours in six different airframes and was on his third deployment.

[SASless]

It was a single engine turbo-prop airplane that routinely gets flown single pilot in civilian use. Being an intel asset....tis not like they are throwing themselves at the ground dropping bombs or something. It was a landing accident was it not? There are no facts out about the incident at all....unless I have missed something.

Some of you folks just have to say something clever or stupid....depends upon how much credence you get by the reader.

[Chugalug2]

Well if nobody else is going to ask, then I will. What exactly are "combat hours"? How are they defined? Are they a US only concept, or a NATO one, or a generic one? Do Service Log Books even allow of the recording of such?

[Epiphany]

GreenKnight. The US term 'deployment' does not equate to the UK term 'tour' which is often 2-3 years. Pilots can complete several 'deployments' within a single tour.

[SASless]

EP....you folks "deploy" just as we do....during your "tours"....don't try to suggest your Lads and Lasses deploy to the Sand Box for 2-3 years at a time please.....or that there is anything notable about the difference in time periods British and American forces deploy. They all go in Harm's Way upon the direction of their leadership and all deserve our respect and admiration....no matter what the uniform or hat badge they wear.

The folks involved in this crash do exactly as yours do....are assigned "tours" at a Unit and deploy on operational assignments.

For a while some of our Army Units were deployed for 15 months in Iraq or Afghanistan.....entire units in "combat" for the whole deployment.

That fortunately is over and "combat" deployments are shorter now.

Various units/services have varying lengths of deployments. There is not a single standard but is determined by the Service and unit function.

The Logging of "Combat Hours" also varies by branch of Service.

Not all hours flown on deployment are considered "combat".

In the Army we used to break the hours into multiple categories....Combat Assault, Combat Support, Combat, and Non-combat.....what type mission you were assigned or what action you were involved in determined the category.

How the Army does it today....I am not knowing.

[Chugalug2]

Not all hours flown on deployment are considered "combat".
So what are then?
Thanks for the feedback, SASless, and I fully appreciate you are now "ex" and can anyway only speak for your Service and for when you served, but can you remember how you knew what category and what time you would log for each mission?
My old RAF Logbook only shows 1st pilot, 2nd pilot, and Dual, as authorised, and divided by Day and Night, as per sunset/sunrise. Captain time (ie in Command time) could only be extracted from the total according to authorisation and one's current status. About the only discretion left to one was the amount of Instrument Flying logged, if I recall. Presumably the various categories and amount of Combat time per mission logged would again depend on what a separate Combat Report stated, as its authority. Was that the case, and did Log Books have to be authenticated on a regular basis by a senior officer (mine was signed off monthly by both my Flt Cdr and Sqn Cdr)?
Sorry to be so inquisitive, but I have always found the differences that divide us across the pond as fascinating as the bonds that undoubtedly unite us. Some of your Warrant Officers rate a salute I believe, whereas only Commissioned ones do here. One can't help wondering if one of our senior Warrant Officers met one such of yours, would the latter rate a salute from the former? Could he/she reasonably expect to get it? I suspect that both would more likely go for a drink or two together, a far more military solution to the dilemma! :ok:
Sorry for the thread drift, folks. Simply file under "whimsy"! ;)

[SASless]

American Warrant Officers are Officers. The Army now considers a W-1 Warrant Officer a Warrant Officer (not a commissioned officer) and upon promotion to CW2 becomes a Commissioned Officer. The difference has to do with authority to command troops, issue Oaths, administer Courtsmartial and other legal issues.

Non-Commissioned Officer (which your Warrants are I assume) do not rate Salutes...only Officers....which include our Warrant and Commsissioned Officers.

In my time....there were three breeds of Cat....Enlisted, Warrant Officer and Commissioned Officer....thus simple and easy. Only the American Army could devise a system where a "Warrant Officer" could be a "Commissioned Officer" and thus complicate the heck out of something so easy and "Traditional".

The change has to do primarily with the down sizing in the Troop Stength authorized by Congress....which sets the numbers of Commissioned Officers the Military can have. As the US Military requires Pilots to be Officers....and in the past the Army was confronted with a crisis....too many Pilot slots and too few Commissioned Officer slots authorized....they went to using the Warrant Officer Rank as a way around that problem. Add later manning cuts and there are too few Commissoned Officers for the command slots and other needs thus the Army took another diversion and made Warrants Commissioned.

Simple ain't it.

Simple answer to your question as to exercising proper Military Courtesy....Your Warrants salute our Warrants....and not the other way around.... re Hand Saluting.

The general rules in my day....

Combat Assault....just that....when you load up Troops and land on the enemy or conduct an airmobile assault, provide gunfire support, or recon for an airmobile assault.

Direct Combat Support....you haul supplies to the troops that did the air assault, haul their wounded and dead, provide gun ship support of troops.

Combat Support....any flight that provides general support to combat operations, moving artillery, troops, supplies, or other operational tasks.

Non-Combat flight....Flights in a combat zone that are not operational in nature...training, maintenance, ferry flights, administrative flights not related to combat operations.

My first "tour" in Vietnam, Twelve Months long, assigned to the Unit in Vietnam, I flew 1100 hours with a 1090 being "combat" hours. We did not count "Missions" but did count "hours". Flight time was Skids up to Skids down....(or in my case Wheels up till Wheels down", rotors running refuel did not count as flight time. Longest day was 18:55....as Crew Rest limitations hinged upon the Tactical Situation.....when the ground troops were in heavy contact....we flew. We did have monthly crew rest limits but even they were negotiable. Average months ran about 90 hours flight time in my unit....with some months pushing 140-150 hours. Throw in slow times, additional officer duties, Unit Officer of the Day, Battalion Officer of the Day, Battalion Officer of the Guard, and time off....and the hours could drop to as low as 50-60 in a month. From June '67 to Dec '70....I accumulated 2200 hours I think it was. That included a full tour in Vietnam, a partial tour in Vietnam (got Medevacced after two and a half months), two Instructor assignments, and a full year of 15 months of training (Basic Infantry, flight school, and a Chinook conversion course, and later a Chinook Instructor Course). I was off flying status for three months during that time recuperating.

There was plenty of flying to be had in those days....much like today as our Lads and Lasses are operating at a very high operational tempo. A recent visit to Hunter Army Airfield in Savannah showed the aircraft there to be well used. Every one we saw had high airframe hours and lots of sand in their nooks and crannies.I was impressed by what I saw there....lots of well trained, well experienced, motivated Soldiers!

[Chugalug2]

Thanks again SASless, and I thought only the MOD could make something simple into a convoluted nightmare :ooh: Another one to impress in the bar then, "Did you know, and not a lot of people do,....?"
As slightly, well very slightly, more pertinent to this thread (which seems to have gone as far as it can anyway) is the recording of combat time. It would seem therefore that what you record is what you are authorised/tasked for. Fairly straight forward I suppose in these days of Expeditionary Warfare, but in a more General War, where you are pitched against a similarly equipped opponent, such pigeon holes might be overtaken by events, and a Combat Support become a Direct Combat Support, and then into Direct Combat as enemy air assets are put up against you. Mind you, if you survived that lot, the last thing on your mind would be the bureaucratic niceties of Log Book compilation!
Oh, BTW, please don't think I am denigrating in any way the dangers or challenges of the Vietnam War. I was at RAF Changi 1963-66, and many of us there felt uncomfortable about not flying alongside our American allies. It seems that there are PC wars and non PC wars, Vietnam and the WW2 Allied Bombing Offensive being in the latter camp. To my mind all wars are non PC and you fight them all to win to the bitter end, unless of course the politicians get in the way, as they invariably do.
Never mind the WO's, I would have liked to have had a beer with you, Sir. I did so with many other Americans though, usually at various Far East USAF airbases. I found only friendship and hospitality, and never a word of reproach at the lack of even "one British bagpiper" to stand beside them.
Stay well,
Chug

[SASless]

The classic Vietnam War story of Brit/Yank confrontation over the Coalition membership.....

British Fleet unit pulls into Subic Bay....fast forward to the evening in the CPO Mess (we called them Clubs)....well into the evening....overhead loudly whispered....something along the lines...."It would sure be nice if you lot (the Brits) would help out."

'Much louder was heard...."We considered it...but the North Vietnamese seem to be doing just fine without us!"

Much sound of broken glass and physical exertion heard immediately afterwards!

[Chugalug2]

:ok::ok::ok:

[US Herk]

Combat time will be directed on the authorisation. For USAF, it is directed as a mission symbol. Generally, O1xx is combat and O2xx is combat support.

[SASless]

Gee....and there I wuz thinking the Air Force considered anything without Pizza Hut or KFC.....Combat!

Admit it....you guys build the Officer's Club before you pave the Runway!

(Reminds self what "pavement" is.....)

[US Herk]

...have you been to Djibouti? That alone should qualify - KFC or not! ;)

[Hedge36]

Good lord, you chuckleheads could derail a slip-n-slide.

Remember, the initial question was: "Anyone have information on the U-28 crash nr Djibouti?"

[SASless]

The absence of KFC could very well be a contributing factor. Crew rest and efficiency issues of course.