Puma, Merlin etc

[Bismark]

Interesting article in DT this morning:

MoD balances books first time in four decades, Defence Secretary to announce - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/9086975/MoD-balances-books-first-time-in-four-decades-Defence-Secretary-to-announce.html)

To quote a section....

....The Navy’s ability to conduct substantial on amphibious operations will be restored with the MoD paying to convert all 22 of the RAF’s Merlin troop transport helicopters for sea movements. The Fleet will also receive funding to start building its fleet of advanced Type 26 frigates.
At least £200 million will be made available to upgrade the fleet of Puma helicopters that are likely to play a role in ferrying special forces around the Olympics.
The Eurofighter Typhoon, that had limited success over Libya, will now receive funding to allow it to carry a full array of armaments including the Stormshadow and Brimstone missiles.

Good news all round? Of course only after such speculation is announced but it may put to bed the acrimony over who has what SH........but I doubt it!

[Wrathmonk]

The Navy’s ability to conduct substantial on amphibious operations will be restored with the MoD paying to convert all 22 of the RAF’s Merlin troop transport helicopters for sea movements

A very poorly worded statement. It could also be taken to mean that it will be the RAF who will fly their newly converted Merlin's, off the ships, in support of Naval amphibious operations :E

Lets hope the ministers actual statement, rather than the 5th floor "leaked" sound bites, is a bit clearer.;)

[hulahoop7]

.... And where are the 6 mk3a going? Same place as the extra Wildcats?

[Unchecked]

It will definitely go ahead now. I'd like to add though (and perhaps continue the 'acrimony') that just because some money has been found and the books are balanced, that spending it in this fashion is still not necessarily the right thing to do with it. It's never been a cheap option and doesnt suddenly represent value for the taxpayer's money just because the money is there.

[Bismark]

Yes, but it rather neatly resolves the "you can't have Merlin if we can't keep Puma" argument. And with RN crews about to join Benson the announcement (if it happens) will be timely.

Now, about the 3As.......they would solve a thorny VERTREP problem for the RN.....

[Not_a_boffin]

Ah yes, the VERTREP or HU problem. Not sure trashing 6 perfectly good "potential" Junglie airframes is the best way forward on that - surely they should just end up with CHF along with the Mk 3s.

What is desperately needed is for someone to articulate clearly the VERTREP requirement for both QEC and the wider fleet. If I were a requirementeer, I might want to include a planeguard/utility element to that requirement as well.

Not at all sure the solution to that requirement looks like a Merlin. It looks to me like something with about 6000lbs USL, cabin space for 6/7 (winchman, swimmer plus up to 4 or 5 inadvertent swimmers), minimum required avionics (assuming no-one is thinking JPR/CSAR) simple airframe with simple log support and able to tolerate repeated sorties in one day.

Don't know what that looks like, but I don't think it's this...

Kaman Helicopters | KMAX Aerial Truck (http://www.kaman.com/aerospace/helicopters/products-services/k-max/)

unfortunately, don't think it's this either....

File:Wessex 1982.JPG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Wessex_1982.JPG)

[Charlie Time]

There are no 'extra' Wildcats as far as I'm aware.

[TheWizard]

Ah yes, the VERTREP or HU problem. Not sure trashing 6 perfectly good Junglie airframes is the best way forward on that - surely they should just end up with CHF along with the Mk 3s.



Which 6 'Junglie airframes' are those then??!

[Unchecked]

I'm not sure that 'if we can't keep puma you can't have merlin' was ever the argument. The argument was always why go to the expense of heavily modifying an airframe, training umpteen crews on it and them retraining another umpteen crews on something else. The cost of accommodating the crews near to benson is an eye watering waste in itself. Still don't see why the new chinooks won't be able to make their way down to yeovilton. The same amount of boots on the ground in half the number of airframes and crew. Now that's balancing the books !

[MaroonMan4]

I was watching this with interest - yes our airships did some extremly clever work to ensure our Puma II cockpits were saved, but despite being poorer than church mice were the politicians really going to do (another) political U turn, this time on SDSR. They didn't with the kipper fleet or with the carrier/harrier debate.

For the Prime Minister to stand up just over a year after publishing an SDSR report (that wasn't rushed!!) saying that the UK was going to have an amphibious capability and then say that the report got it wrong, and actually the nation does not need it (but will continue to fund many other inefficient HMG departments instead), was I think just not going to happen. He would be laughed at not only openly by Labour, but the nation. Just as we use the Battle of Britain to invoke memories, the Fisheads have the Falklands that continue to bubble away in the nations pysche - especially now.

As I have always posted, if UK defence wants an amphibious capability then quite rightly it should go to CHF and the Fisheads, and any other JHC dreaming of spreading maritime expertise throughout its forces is pure nonsense (just as all our Air Component TLT NITEX experience spread between the forces is now so watered down it is virtually invisible).

But if the Prime Minister really is going to stand up in Parliament and say that he got it wrong (or atleast his then SofS Def did ;) ) then maybe he will get away with a U turn on getting rid of a UK amphibious capability, in which case who cares which service flys the Merlin, and then cost really does come into it and you might as well leave it with us. We can all do a best effort on the rare occasions that we might have to do something from the sea if really pushed, where the increased risk is accepted, but it would have to be the exception and not a normal expectation from defence and the nation.

But please, if this Telegraph report is true, then thank goodness as this has undoubtedly been the worst year for joint relations that I can remember, including going back to before the JHC days and RAFG. In my personal opinion it has been shocking, with poor leadership by our airships, with some bad behaviour all round and politicians that have been financially focused on years 1 to 4 at the detriment of capability and through life costs. Poorly briefed with incorrect or mis-information, no wonder in 10 years time we will probably be looking back at these years with disbelief.

I will say though to be fair the saving of the Puma was some extremely clever work by our senior leadership, well done and this decision, combined with our new buy wokkas should enable AMP's team to lead a managed path from Merlin cockpits to our shiney new aircraft. Speaking to those up the road, it is the basic fear of job security which is driving this under belly of resentment, not any real hatred of CHF. The airships might be looking to save station commands and how to grow the next CAS, but all the shop floor is interested in is their jobs, when are they going flying next and do the young keen thrusters have a career ahead of them?

[Yozzer]

Speaking impartially and without prejudice; I sincerely hope that bodging aircraft designed to be land based into a 'marinised' fleet in austere times does not conclude with an aircraft unfit for purpose that is dangerous. A job well done is never done without cost, and cost cutting usually costs lives.

Not said to provoke willy waving and in ignorance of the differances between the present grey fleet Merlin and the SH variant. Aware though that the transition could be a step too far. Is Joint Force Merlin still an option? If not, we may as well chin the JHC concept and put RAF SH back under command of AIR.

[hulahoop7]

Lynx Wildcat Numbers in The Royal Navy Forum (http://warships1discussionboards.yuku.com/topic/19361/Lynx-Wildcat-Numbers#.Tz6cP1FLP4s)

[MaroonMan4]

Yozzer,

The days of bespoke aircraft for niche jobs have long gone - maybe with the exception of Attack Helicopters. Look around at NH-90 and all its variants and roles, the new AW family of aircraft, and even the old Sea King was designed as a maritime aircraft, but by all accounts is used effectively and safely by many customers in land roles.

Although not an expert on the Merlin LEP, I think the majority of the costs were in the upgrading and modernising the aircraft, not the marinisation bits, but I do know that other nations are safely using it in a land and maritime role.

As to all SH under Air Command, I believe that this is seriously being looked at as under the new MAA rules and regulations it is believed by many that CAS is really the only person that has the qualifications and experience to be a proper Senior Duty Holder.

Unchecked

Now do not go putting silly ideas like that into the centre's mind, you will only start this whole thing off again. How many times do I have to say that although the twin TQ monster is awesome, it is not the panacea and cannot do everything and does have limitations (I know, I find it hard saying that!).

Aside from that, DE&S will most certainly not go for a split hub, and again why train Fisheads on a completely new aircraft when we can transition our own crews across with all their experience levels. At least Merlins keep it all in the same Fishead family.

If memory serves me correctly (and we do have to be honest and fair here) there is not that much extra cost to defence for the Merlin transition as we would still have to train our own crews anyway over the next 4 or 5 years. The bean counters do not care what the colour of the cloth is of the student - the bean counters are colour blind and just see 'pilot under training', do you think they care which service actually flys it at the end of the course, and what his/her specialisation is.....nah.

[ramp_up]

Well it must be 6 months since the last well the FAA should have the new Chinooks gag. I would suggest that you work out how operate with 2 Crewmen first before attempting to ask for even bigger toys. No offence meant but learn to walk first before running.

I am also lead to believe that the transfer is reversible and dependent on it being cost effective and in the public interest.

Notwithstanding this, I do hope the transfer takes place without hitch, however just don't hold your breath. Be assured though that it won't be the shop floor that try to upset the apple cart.

[Engines]

MM,

I was interested in the statement you made in your last post:

As to all SH under Air Command, I believe that this is seriously being looked at as under the new MAA rules and regulations it is believed by many that CAS is really the only person that has the qualifications and experience to be a proper Senior Duty Holder.

Having read the MAA RA1020, which states that:

Each Service COS shall be an SDH by virtue of position, and shall personally appoint by name ODHs and DDHs within their AoRs.

my take is that CNS, CDS and CAS are SDHs by 'virtue of position', and that the 'qualifications and experience' bit comes in at ODH/DDH level. What do you think?

Best Regards as ever,

Engines

[MaroonMan4]

Engines,

Yes, I agree what the current MAA rules say, but don't you think in the future that it just makes sense to have an air minded senior officer, that has grown up in an air environment, with experience and qualifications in the air, as the person accountable and responsible to the SofS for the safety of military things in the air, not one that is used to digging trenches or sailing on boats?

Back on thread, ramp_up, couldn't agree more, and although I can buy into (forgive the pun) Merlin transition not costing the tax payer that much, it does have to be in the public (national strategic) interest.

As per SDSR currently there is a declared requirement for an amphibious capability, but if we really are that broke and the NHS or Welfare budgets require the dosh, then I can conceivably see a U turn and that is why CHF and Merlin would go. Not because of any single service agenda, quite simply because we as a nation cannot afford the number of helicopters and especially the niche capabilities offered by specialist organisations like CHF.

I have been quite open given my experience of the wokka on board in that any number of Chinooks embarked would not truly satisfy the amphibious requirement, and that is ignoring my body shuddering at the thought of deploying at sea for any longer than I have to, but if we really are that broke and cannot afford all the 'clubs in the golf bag', then now we have Puma and a new buy of Chinooks, we really don't need Merlin if the amphibious stuff is no longer required.

[pr00ne]

Charlie Time,

"There are no 'extra' Wildcats as far as I'm aware."

Time to be a little more aware mate, there are four additional Wildcats, to go to SF as LUH, thought to be for 657 Sqn, along with four that were originally destined for the Army in the original role. So it's now 28 for the RN, 30 for the Army and 8 for SF, hence four extra Wildcats.

[snafu]

MaroonMan

Don't overlook the fact that, if you're suggesting the MoD decide to ditch the amphibious capability, it's slightly more complex than just CHF. You're suggesting the LPH (including the CVS currently covering the role), all of the supporting assets and...oh, yes.....the Royal Marines. Plus the fact that it's a core national capability as defined in SDSR, it's not quite as simple as just saying that we made a mistake and don't need it to resolve some bad relationships between services over a few helicopters.

[Bismark]

.....and of course amphibiosity is of greater value, across the range of operations the Government may wish to undertake, than many of the RAF and Army capabilities. So I think the amphibious case is here to stay....as is CHF, indeed one could see the maritime capable helo element expand.

[Evalu8ter]

Bismarck,
You are quite correct that Amphibeous Ops are here to stay - they offer an effective way for govts to influence, deter, fix or, ultimately, engage with hostile forces. To be effective you need the correct shipping and trained staff officers; you don't need CHF....though it is doubtless more efficient with them. The LitM RW capability will not expand; TAGs will always seek to draw in components that offer complimentary capabilities (esp CH47 and AH) so any "uplift" will be from existing JHC fleets. I'm sure a large chunk of the post-Afghan "regeneration" will be spent trying to get the CH47 and Puma 2 fleets back up to speed for LitM (not to mention a large % of CHF who've never embarked due to the Herrick focus...).

MM4; I don't see any issue with a 4* soldier or sailor being the SDH for air assets under their command. One could argue that what does a FJ CAS know about the issues of RW or AT fleets? The answer is a robust chain of ODH/DDH/SO to provide that expertise, as happens now.

[Finnpog]

I do chuckle at MaroonMan's trolling / Jack & Royal baiting, it is a shame that it does get bites rather than Wahs.

If, for example, the argument about chopping another RW SH goes, then hacking the Junglies is totally arse about face - as they can do the same basic that the Puma force does, but also bring amphibiosity as well - so why cut the team which brings more capabilities to the table? :ugh:

I can see some of the logic in proposing that the Strategic lead should have an Air (not necessarily RAF) suite of qualifications and experience - however unlike the views of previous high ranking officers, would this person not be better to come from an Eng or Logs background rather than having just been a 'stick-monkey'? :sad::E:ok::oh:

[Engines]

MM,

Interesting reply. You say that:

I agree what the current MAA rules say, but don't you think in the future that it just makes sense to have an air minded senior officer, that has grown up in an air environment, with experience and qualifications in the air, as the person accountable and responsible to the SofS for the safety of military things in the air, not one that is used to digging trenches or sailing on boats?

No, it doesn't make sense.

These aren't the 'current' MAA rules. They're the rules. The rules from the independent organisation that is charged with setting down the rules. The fact that they are not rules you agree with is imaterial. They are the rules.

Now to the content. The MAA has clearly said that each service's COS is to be the SDH for that service 'by virtue of position'. His (or her) job is to build a proper DDH/ODH accountability structure to manage and deliver safe aviation. For my part, I am absolutely sure that the RAF can do that. So can the Navy and so can the Army, because they are all professionals.

They probably won't all do it the same way, because they are professionals and will adapt and build their ODH/DDH structures to meet their own operational needs. And that's a good thing, because it gives them all a chance to learn from each other.

And exactly what is an 'air minded senior officer' anyway? Care to define that? Evalu8ter poses a very fair question - FW 'minded' or RW 'minded'? Let me add mine. 'Manned' minded or 'UCAV' minded? '1Gp' minded or '2 Gp' minded?

What grates here (and as rare example I am going to admit to a grating feeling) is the inferred assumption that the RAF are the sole and only professional 'air minded' practitioners in the UK military. They are not. They are extremely good at what they do, and I take special care always to acknowledge that. But to infer that the FAA and the AAC don't know how to manage and deliver safe aviation is just, I'm sorry, poor. That sort of argument lets down the RAF just as much as it offends the other two services.

And it's exactly the sort of argument that is being deployed right now. It got started in earnest during SDSR and many of us know that it's getting worse. By the day. What bothers me most is not the existence of that argument. What bothers me most is that the aviation professionals in all three services are being let down, right now, by it. Because if the senior staffs are spending their time trying to snatch each others 'rice bowls' (and that is exactly what is going on right now) they are not spending their time making sure that the people at the sharp end are getting the kit, training and support they need.

Sorry if this sounded like a rant. It's not intended as such. As ever, let's all stay behind the people doing the business in the air, on the sea, and on the sand. The last most of all, because the bombs are in the sand.

Best Regards as ever

Engines

[Neartheend]

Funny how only a few days ago it was briefed in front of the RW RN 1* that all major projects including Mk3 - 4 conversion (MLSP) and crows nest (Mk1) were on hold due to the treasury...... The delay will now put everything beyond 2016. You only need to look at the Mk1 - Mk2 upgrade to see how long it takes from contract let to 1st cab at QQ BD and beyond.

[Admin_Guru]

One could argue that what does a FJ CAS know about the issues of RW or AT fleets?

Airmanship.
Flight Safety.
The value of training.
Acceptance that appropriate preparation requires financing.
That short cuts cost lives.
That Haddon-Cave is a man to be respected.

I know of at least one individual commanding an aviation support unit who has none of these assets and as such, is a liability.

however unlike the views of previous high ranking officers, would this person not be better to come from an Eng or Logs background rather than having just been a 'stick-monkey'?

Believe me; that is your worst nightmare. AAC - FAA - RAF aviators, who cares; but postmen should stick to posting letters and fluffing duvets.

[Bismark]

.......you don't need CHF...

Evaluator,

Sadly you do. Only the CHF are charged with being the experts in embarked amphibious helo ops. While the RAF (and AAC) may contribute task elements when required they generally have no interest other than "are the RN going to provide a safe system for me to operate from the sea?" and generally want to get on and off asap. The "safe system" is provided by maritime trained aircrews, engineers and ship staff who have an interest in the capability. Someone has to write the rules, regs and op procedures etc. So it is in the interest of the SofS that he has a body of people who have such a capablility......hence CHF. Indeed Cmd JHC has to ensure such a capability/expertise is available to CinCFleet and thus I assume he has been arguing heavily for its retention (but with the current incumbent I am not holding my breath.)

[MaroonMan4]

Finnpog,

I do not know whether to be honoured or flattered by your belief that I am a troll, but I do feel kind of nervous as Admin Guru appears back on the scene and posting here:eek:

I agree totally that the UK should have an amphibious capability (so no Royal baiting).

I disagree with the current trend by JHC to make everyone capable of operating from decks, woefully naive and hence if the nation does need an amphibious capability, the helicopter bit is best placed with the Subject Matter Experts (and what ever anyone says, as a force CHF certainly could cobble together much more embarked experience than anyone else, even despite HERRICK).

I disagree that the Chinook is the solution to everything, whether in the Land or Maritime environment, and we are much better placed serving the Land requirement if something else can do the majority of the Maritime lift without us.

But......and this is where I try not to come across as a troll, but a sense of reality, and as Neartheend reminds us, we are broke and just maybe there are some political U turns around the corner on SDSR (which wasn't rushed don't forget!) which might just see the requirement for Merlin and CHF removed. If not removed, just delayed and deferred by the politicians to the point where it becomes just too expensive (my guess, around 2015, when the current Govt could do with some MOD money to sweeten up the election hope and a Merlin project behind schedule, over budget due to political indecision in 2011-12 will send it the same way as the NImrods - to the breakers!).

I really do hope that the Merlin transition goes smoothly, there is absolutely no reason why our manners cannot smooth the outflow into both Puma and Chinook, to give Defence a relatively cost effective amphibious helicopter capability (which whether we like AW or not does put money and jobs into the Yeovil economy rather than France or Eastern Europe wherever the Puma upgrade is taking place), but Defence is broke and unlike our airships managing to get positive funding for Puma, I don't quite see the same interest or imperative from the Fishead hierarchy with Merlin, probably because they have ships and submarines to save, and helicopters aren't really the core equipments, or maybe an amphibious force has not been deemed an essential capability by the politicians, who knows?

Harsh, but only trying to be realistic in these financially screwed up times.

[Admin_Guru]

I do feel kind of nervous as Admin Guru appears back on the scene and posting here

A bit uncalled for I think; and if you look at my user CP you may notice that I never went away. Back to the thread................

[NutLoose]

Not a Boffin some of these not suffice?

RAF - Griffin HAR2 (http://www.raf.mod.uk/equipment/griffinhar2.cfm)

[Spanish Waltzer]

Nut,

Not sure the Griffin HAR2 would be an ideal choice. Last time I was briefed there were only 4 procured for the specific role in Cyprus. They dont have a folding MRH and they dont have an AFCS night overwater hover capability :eek:

Not ideal for a maritime SAR helicopter :ugh:

Then again that link implies differently so maybe things have changed :confused:

[Evalu8ter]

Bismarck,
In an ideal world I agree with you entirely. However, the ATG Staff officers are the important piece here and they are currently drawn from (quite sensibly) CHF. There would be nothing to stop RAF/AAC pers from attending the AOPC, take part in a couple of desktops and then be ready at the start of the re-gen cycle post 2014 to run through a number of Wadexes etc before declaring a capability. Would there be a drop in efficiency - absolutely yes - but CHF themselves have suffered from a lack of embarked time recently. Flying from a deck in the Littoral in a modern helicopter is not hard; planning the DOTAH and fly-out tables is. You could, if so minded, make this a task of other aircrew apart from CHF. Is it any different to posting officers with no procurement experience into PTs/FLCs/CAPs? I don't think so (and before you ask, I've worked in procurement, completed the AOPC and done a number of amphib packages both live and practise. I may be a crab but I'd rather be in an air-conditioned cabin than stuck in a dusty tent...). If the right people are given the right training then CHF could fold. I would rather they didn't, they continue to provide an excellent service, but they could, just, be seen as gold plating. Anyway, let's hope the Merlin transfer goes ahead as planned. Time to draw a line methinks.

Engines re SDH et al - as ever, put more eloquently than wot I can...

[Engines]

Evalu8ter,

Re SDH et al - don't think so, mate, just trying to keep up with you, as ever.

My take on the 'joint' experience is that, sadly, putting 'joint' formations under the ownership of a single service command isn't working as it needs to. The situation gets even worse when heads of those joint formations don't act in a 'joint' manner.

CHF had a solid, sound and useful (albeit limited) capability when part of Fleet. Knew who they were, what they did, led by a small but motivated staff and (as I remember it) worked just fine with anyone else when detailed off to do so. Not sure they have been any better as part of JHC, to be honest. Just more staff.

Getting helicopters to sea on large ships in benign seas isn't a high end flying (pole and pedals) skill, although highly skilled pole and pedal types are often encountered. The really necessary skills, as you point out, are the planning and airmanship aspects, and getting the deck to work. But the most essential thing for proper delivery of ANY capability is commitment, from the top to the bottom. And when one service decides that it should justify and preserve its own capabilities by diluting or denigrating those of the other two, that damages that sense of commitment. (Trust goes out the window as well).

Best Regards as ever to those out there in harm's way

Engines

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

why cut the team which brings more capabilities to the table?


Because it costs more? Whatever one's allegiances or preferences, the Merlin costs far more to operate than Puma. It would be very sad to see CHF go, but then it was also sad to see the back of Harrier, Ark, Nimrod, and the need to save money has hardly gone away...

As for the Griffin HAR2, I wouldn't trust a word on the linked website - full of bolleaux of many varieties (eg under Sea King, 22 Sqn based at St Mawgan, or Squirrel, 'max altitude 16,000 feet', and apparently used by '60 (Reserve) Squadron'...good to see that the powers that be have made sure that they are bang up to date with their FJ content, such as the recent renumbering of 19 Sqn to IV Sqn, but it's a shame that the Hawk T1 is attributed to IV Sqn...need I go on...):ugh:

[orca]

Hello RW types. You appear to be dancing around a subject vexing the light blue side of the FW equation.

If you are going to go to sea, which the RAF 'will' (for the sake of argument) do to augment CHF or replace CHF...pick either, it doesn't really matter...then you either have to fit into a system or bring one with you. A whole one. At the moment we have an ever decreasing amount of maritime expertise. For fairly obvious reasons RW is better placed than FW. That dwindling expertise is keeping us safe to a degree and crucially, to my mind, the 'we can do without the niche capability, gold plated capability' argument misses the point. It is that core that allows the 'bolt on' to function. It is that core that provides the guys who run the deck, who position the ship, who grew up through CHF and now supervise it.

Does Odiham want to provide a full time flyco team? How about ATC? If not full time then for how long prior to an embarkation? Who will validate the Air department? Who will check the camrex?

You can't rely on a system being in place whilst arguing for the removal of the very thing which feeds it.

If the RAF, or some within it, want to replace CHF because it's a niche capability, just like some would argue they have the same aspiration to man FW in its entirety - could they please be coherent enough to tell us where the Cdr Airs, Lt Cdr Flyings, SO2 RWs, SO3 HECs are going to come from?

If the answer is: 'The Fleet Air Arm of the RAF' where you go from RAFC Cranwell to RAF-det HMS Collingwood to earn your spurs on a bridge and then spend your career operating from a ship or at least on a badged FAA-of the-RAF squadron with a higher embarkation cycle than the RAF SH fleet, and then go on staff tours directly related to the capability...then that is a sound answer and I applaud your thinking. But the implication of that isn't just distasteful to those joining the RAF, it's impractical as well. It's everything wrong with our Joint thinking. We have asystem that provides this already, manned by people who want to do it. Bizarrely enough they don't spend every waking hour dreaming up reasons to take over the AAC or any other SH provider.

So come on then, what's the plan? Let's hear what the end-to-end RAF plan is to replace CHF. Not just in the cockpit, but in the ships, in the hangar, in flyco the whole darn shooting match. Because all that is fed by CHF.

[high spirits]

I have only just read this utter bolleaux article. Yeah good one matelot. All 22 cabs modified my aarse. (by the way, the next time you leak from MOD to your mucker in the telegraph, get the numbers of ac right-there are 27 gusting 28 mk3/3a).

This will go ahead, or not when ministers are told the truth about the cost of the transfer. Not the 'zero cost option' chuff that has been spun so far.

[teeteringhead]

But to infer that the FAA and the AAC don't know how to manage and deliver safe aviation is just, I'm sorry, poor. I think you miss the intended point Engines, or at least as I've always understood it.

No-one (well, not me) questions the professionalism of the aviators of the other Services, but - crucially in my mind - aviation is only a part of those services, and rarely if ever seen as the most important.

My view is that when (financial) push comes to shove, the AAC in CGS's eyes will always lose out to tanks/regiments/more bayonets, and for 1SL boats and ships will always be more important than the FAA. Whilst CAS may (probably will :() prefer something fast and pointed to something rotary - at least it's air!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

get the numbers of ac right-there are 27 gusting 28 mk3/3a [sic]


Is the entire current fleet being transferred?

[Engines]

Teetering,

I do my best to stay 'on thread' and address the point - apologies if I'm not succeeding.

My quote there was in response to a suggestion that only an 'air minded' CAS could be a Senior Duty Holder (SDH) in the new MAA arrangements. That suggestion betrayed (to my mind) a fairly typical mindset that 'as 'air' isn't the most important thing to the RN and the Army, the RAF are the best placed to do it'.

It's one I profoundly disagree with. The RAF are 'best placed' to deliver those capabilities that they are charged to deliver. And, in general, they do it. There are some good arguments to be had over the emphasis that the RAF have placed over the past 40 years or so on fast jet acquisition (especially AD aircraft) at the expense of AT, SH and AAR, and ISTAR, but they are for another day.

But I contend that the RN and the Army are quite capable of delivering capabilities via the use of aircraft. They've done so for many years, and in areas where the RAF are basically uninterested or just don't think are required. (Maritime fixed wing is a good example). And the Navy and the Army will deliver aircraft programmes. On the Apache, the Army took a massive hit on other more traditional equipment programmes to buy it.

It's my view that the RAF would do well to take a long hard look at the way the RN and the Army develop their officer corps, and perhaps aim to deliver people who are more widely experienced, and perhaps less 'air minded' and more 'capability minded'. That, by the way, is not a slight on the very many RAF officers I've worked with over many years, who were all (with very few exceptions) quite exceptionally professional and dedicated to their service.

Best Regards as ever to those doing the stuff at the sharp end,

Engines.

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

Yes, the RAF is losing all HC3 and HC3a to CHF. This is confirmed. Puma 2 is also confirmed for the RAF. Out.

[Alpha Whiskey]

for 1SL boats and ships will always be more important than the FAA.

I think you will find retention of Merlin LSP is 1SL's top PR12 priority.

[Neartheend]

Seemingly not. The Math has been done and the sheep trading has begun. Stby for JFM.

[Engines]

JTO,

Thanks for the response. If you have special access to inside information of the concerns of the Secretary of State for Defence, I will of course yield to that. But in my career, I tried to follow the well worn rule of 'follow the last order'. And those orders, as far as the SDH issue go, are pretty clear and less than a year old. Just for clarity, the relevant MAA reg reads as follows:

'Regulation 1020(2) - Each Service COS shall be an SDH by virtue of position,
and shall personally appoint by name ODHs and DDHs within their AoRs'.

The acceptable means of compliance is also clear - 'SDHs should ensure that the ODHs and DDHs that they appoint are SQEP (see RA1020(3)). '

The MAA preamble to this lot also helpfully points out that: 'The key DH level is the Operational DH (ODH), by virtue of the unique combination of: their competencies, training and experience; “their relevant knowledge of operational requirements; their immediate and daily access to the views and expertise of Front-line air and engineering crews; and the most direct interest in ensuring the safety and airworthiness of their aircraft

So, my conclusion is that COSs are the SDH 'by virtue of position', and the SQEP issue becomes relevant at ODH and DDH level. Seems pretty clear, and I, for one, don't think that Timo Anderson just 'gaffed' this one off. Perhaps he did, or perhaps the Sec of State really is going to get this bit changed after less than a year. Why?

I have to gently raise a couple more issues. First, and importantly, what exactly do you mean by an 'aviator' or 'aviation qualified' when you talk about an SDH? Pilot? Navigator? Observer? 'Air-minded'? (I love that one) Or how, since we are talking about safety management here, and oversight of a complex and essentially technical area of activity, an Engineer? Nothing I read in the RA says it can't be, except that an SDH has to be a service COS.

Of course, getting the SofS to insist on an 'aviator' as SDH would rather 'situate the appreciation', wouldn't it? It's highly unlikely that the RN or the Army would have an aviator as their COS. And if CAS became SDH for all military 'air', well, the logic would no doubt flow that he would then have to have command responsibility for it. And ownership.

Let's just be clear on this. The RN and the Army have experienced people who meet the requirements set out by the independent regulator, and who, most importantly, have a direct interest in ensuring the safety and airworthiness of their aircraft. They've been doing this aviation stuff for a few years. They know what they are doing. Just like the RAF in fact. Just one difference - they aren't going around trying to convince politicians that the other two services somehow aren't capable of operating aircraft safely.

As someone who did this aircraft safety stuff for a living for around 30 years, but in a dark blue suit, I find it just a bit wearing. So, I strongly suspect, would my many highly professional and extremely capable friends in the RAF.

Best regards as ever to those doing something useful,

Engines

["Running in"]

Engines - absolutely spot on!

Neartheend! Dream on mate!! Dream on!!!

[snafu]

Engines

Having participated in a formal visit to the light blue a few months ago, I was interested to hear a relatively senior Regiment officer justifying their role as essential to have an 'air-minded' organisation to provide airfield defence. While I'm grateful for the job that they do, having spent more than enough time flying in and out of Bastion under their FP cordon in the immediate surroundings, I'm intrigued by the suggestion that a Service CoS needs to be 'air-minded' and wondered how our light blue brethren might feel about a Regt CoS? :E

[MaroonMan4]

Orca,

A good academic post on 19 Feb-not saying I agree, but certainly thought provoking.

AW, I think that you might find that even if 1SL does care two hoots about CHF and Merlin, rather than all his other floating toys, I think that you will find find he will be struggling. Neartheend might be a little closer to the truth, but even then a Joint Force Merlin is looking a tad optimistic, as any Merlin Force at all is looking dodgy if MLSP is not funded.

I know that some of the Merlin guys cannot believe that we were willing to sacrifice them in order to ensure the survival of Puma, but if the posts and rumours are true and due to the dire financial situation the people at the top directed that a RW type was to go, better the type that was not RAF don't you think? Otherwise we would have not only been looking at handing over Merlin to the Fisheads, but binning Puma, with only one RAF RW then we were not looking in a good position.

However,due to some good work by our Airships we now have enough cockpits for our Merlin guys to transfer into when they switch off the lights at Merlin OSD, with Puma safe, and our new buy Chinook. I reckon that Defence still has a pretty capable (and affordable) RW capability across all environments.

I think it always does pay to have the right people at the top informing the high level meetings where these kind of decisions are made.

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

the RAF is losing all HC3 and HC3a to CHF


I'm aware that the RAF will cease to operate the Merlin (under current plans), but that doesn't mean to say that every airframe will transfer to CHF. In which case, the article to which High Spirits objected may turn out to be accurate (in terms of fleet size, at least).

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

TOTD,
I can only foresee the current plans changing due to the onset of conflict. They are to all intents and purposes concrete. As for the number of cabs, expect all to be transferred.

[Bismark]

MM4,

Those with the real power in MoD (and the Treasury) are certain the Merlin will transfer lock stock and barrell. The also seem to have a big downer on the senior RAF.

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

Quite so, Bismark, that's about the long and short of it.

[high spirits]

MM4,
There are 35 mk3 crews. There are less pumas in the P2 programme than we have at present, and the present force is full to bursting. We are getting 12 of the 22 promised wokkas. Do the maths.....

Do you really think the Merlin crews can be absorbed into Puma and Chinook? I can't really get bitter over handing Merlin to the RN as they need something to replace the SK with. The decision at the moment is to transfer it lock stock. That's life.... However, mk3 is patently unsuitable, will cost a packet to modify and train the new crews and will not be fit for purpose at the end of it. MLSP fixes what aint broke and makes no performance enhancing difference to what is a wheezy airframe. The RAF will end up deploying to sea anyway to augment the lift required.

What's the point of crowing about Puma? Puma 2 is a minor sop. It polishes the turd for another 10 years. Whoopy do..

[althenick]

I think I might be over simplifying things but i've seen other related threads where it has been mooted that the Sim at benson would have to be transfered to Culdrose and Jungly SK Crews would need training from the RAF to fly the HC variant.

Now then here is a pic of a Merlin HM Cockpit

http://farm5.staticflickr.com/4128/5038224285_67f469891d_o.jpg

And here is the HC


http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafcms/mediafiles/2A23C338_5056_A318_A85144D01DC5995B.jpg

Please forgive my ignorance but even to the untrained eye I dont see too much difference between either, in fact I would aver that The HM variant is slightly more complex due to the nature of its task. What would be the problem with taking SK pilots and putting them through Merlin HM Training and then when the time comes deploying them on HC. Same with Ground crew. In fact other than the Rear opening up. the HC variant must be a less complex helicopter.
Sorry for rabbiting on but the debate has piqued my curiosity. :ok:

[Kreuger flap]

The difference is, the bottom picture has seen action in a war zone. Not just mooching around the world on the back of a boat.

[ralphmalph]

Yep, it sure has.....

And there are plenty of balloon cables and Hesco Bastion walls that would show the scars of the Merlin HC being there!

What a useless and pointless comment!

Serves no purpose, just like this one!

Can we get back to the point?

[Tallsar]

Althenick
A perfectly reasonable comparison ..as the HC3 was based largely on the then available cockpit and systems when ordered in 95. That happened to be the RN Mk1 standard. There are a few differences, including mission systems, communications and If you look carefully, changed display units for map and FLIR in the Hc3

Bear in mind too that the 8 Mk3as inherited the New LCD based cockpit...so that is significantly differrent.

Furthermore, the RN (MCSP)MK2 is on the threshold of service entry with attendant simulator changes, and of course that too has a new LCD based cockpit system with new misson system/ computers. Will any Mk3 SLEP copy this?

Hence there will be several significant "fleet within fleet" issues, all if which
will potentially affect any transition programme, depending on such things as who is doings what with the simulators, conversion programmes of both services, airframe availability and of course the timings of all such events.

Although I suspect moving the Mk3 sim is unlikely, sometimes such events can prove the most cost effective in the full scheme of things, despite the apparent hassle up front.

Whatever the final decision in these matters, I just hope it remains consistent, because it seems to me there are quite a few variables that need resolving...and once the plan is sorted, any small change will only create delay
and add more expense.

[high spirits]

At the nick.
One cockpit is not NVG compatible. One is. Can you guess which one?

The sim will have to move in the fullness of time to either yeovs or culdrose. The mk1 sim would not have the capacity to train both. Not with the vast majority of conversion hours in the sim as they are at present. A lot of people dismiss it as a factor in the process. It is highly used for both conversion and maintenance of currency and tactical knowledge.

It still doesn't change the fact that marinisation will add weight, and without better engines, gearbox and tail rotor it will cough and wheeze more than it does now....and the chinook will have to go to sea to augment it's crapness.

[TheWizard]

If we are playing spot the difference, the pilots in the first photo have always preferred ths same sex!

Touche :eek::}

[engineer(retard)]

If you have to be "air minded" to hold airworthiness responsibility the SofS must have blagged his CV:

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | People | Ministers | Secretary of State for Defence (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/People/Ministers/SecretaryOfStateForDefence.htm)

[Courtney Mil]

With that background he seems the the obvious choice because, erm, ah. Forgot now.:eek:

[Bismark]

I hear CAS was at Benson the other day telling them to get on with the transfer to CHF....has it started yet?

["Running in"]

Although there are some RN/ RM aircrew already serving on Merlin front line the 1st transition crews ( 6 pilots 6 crewmen) start at Benson next month.

[Unchecked]

Next month ? I thought it was supposed to be this month ? What happened there then ?

["Running in"]

Serviceability issues combined with Op tempo I believe.

[Unchecked]

Oh right. Good to see the age-old Merlin serviceability issues have finally been sorted out and the Operational tempo is slowing down to finally allow a nice, smooth transition to go ahead.

["Running in"]

Yep, but hey. We all knew it was never going to be easy!

[xenolith]

You seem to be talking to yourself. BTW wrong heel.

[Bismark]

Upsdaisy,

There is no comment because it is on this thread:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/484284-raf-merlin-crews-screwed.html

[Climebear]

Interesting snippit in ACGS's note on PR12 dated yesterday (available on the intranet) that includes a line in the Annex on the funding for the Puma life extension and the delivery of the 14 new Chinook Mk6s.

[Unchecked]

Upsdaisy - how very mature of you. Well done.

Climebear - the statement also included a bullet-pointed paragraph confirming the acquisition of Wildcat and the MLSP for Merlin (didn't detail which Mk but I guess it's the 3 as Mk1 to Mk2 conversion has already started, I believe, but standby to be corrected) and funding for the ASSESSMENT phase of Merlin marinisation. I highlight the word assessment, as if the assessment decides that marinisation is a no-go, then the question of why not Chinooks for the CHF should probably be answered IMHO.

[triboy]

Armed Forces: Helicopters

Questions

Asked by Lord West of Spithead

To ask Her Majesty’s Government how many Royal Navy aircrew and maintenance personnel have now converted to the Merlin 3 helicopter. [HL2992]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government when the first Royal Navy Merlin 3 helicopter squadron will stand up as part of the Commando Helicopter Force. [HL2993]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether marinisation of the Merlin 3 helicopter has been fully funded in the Ministry of Defence forward programme.[HL2994]

To ask Her Majesty’s Government whether the handover of the Merlin Mk3 airframe to the Commando Helicopter Force will take place if marinisation has not been completed.[HL2995]

The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State, Ministry of Defence (Lord Astor of Hever) (Con): As of 31 October 2013, 31 aircrew and 150 maintenance personnel have converted to the Merlin Mk3 helicopter. 32 aircrew and 33 maintenance personnel are currently undergoing conversion training, with a further 24 maintenance personnel entering conversion training before the end of the year.

The first Royal Navy Merlin Mk3 helicopter squadron, 846 Naval Air Squadron, will stand up as part of the Commando Helicopter Force in autumn 2014.

The ship-optimisation of the Merlin Mk3 helicopter is part of a wider package of aircraft enhancements that form the Merlin Life Sustainment Programme. The programme is currently in its Assessment Phase; programme funding will be considered as part of the Main Gate Business Case.

The transition of the Merlin Mk3 airframe to the Commando Helicopter Force is already underway and is due to complete in advance of the planned modification of the airframe.

[Pheasant]

I wonder at which point the CHF take command of the transition and thus have control over training etc?

But well done the RAF Merlin boys and girls for getting on with the job.

[Ticked all the boxes]

Shame they won't fit in the hangars at Yeovilton if on jacks. I'm sure maintaining them on jacks outside the hangar won't be a problem...

[Talk Split]

RN take control of Trg at DDH handover...

[Pheasant]

Yes but when is that likely to be?

[oldgrubber]

TATB,

I suspect just saying it won't convince you, so.....

Yeovilton- a few tiger shots from my visit to 814NAS ? FighterControl ? Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast (http://fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&p=406609)

A picture is worth, etc etc.

Cheers now

[Just This Once...]

I'm not sure your picture will convince him and whilst my knowledge of hangar heights is non-existent I do know enough to recognise that your photo is not of a Merlin Mk3/3A!

Got any pics of a taller helicopter?

[Just This Once...]

So apart from the different landing gear, different wheels and the lack of folding tail boom the height of the Mk3 is just like the Mk1…

Again, I've no idea about the hangar but the photo of a Mk1 on jacks with its tail folded does not provide the answer. Photos can be deceiving but the rebuttal photo does appear quite close to the overhead structure I would be surprised if the clearance remaining would allow for an un-folded or non-folding tail.

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8288/7749623990_4502f5c8fe.jpg

Not a great deal of clearance when not on jacks - again, tail boom folded:

http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8284/7749655354_e87692675c.jpg

[oldgrubber]

Just This Once,

The MK1 Merlin is 6.6 metres to the top of the tail rotor disc.
The MK3 Merlin is lower (a few cm) but I can’t remember exactly and it really doesn’t matter in this case.
The undercarriage components are interchangeable between MK1 and MK3 Merlins, the differences are:
1/ Removable stub axle to allow another main wheel (MK3)
2/ No sprag lock (MK3)
3/ “High flotation” front tyres (MK3)
4/ Inboard tie down fitting (MK1)
There are a few part number differences etc but the point is the gear is the same in height and stroke.
When I taught jacking to the baby mechanics I’m sure we briefed that the hangars at Culdrose had a minimum clearance of at least 8 metres to the metal trusses, that is at the sides as some hangars have the apex interior construction which is higher.
Culdrose has had some new builds lately but even in the old hangars it wasn’t a problem for the Merlin unless you jacked under a light pendant. The Seaking hangars at Yeovilton are the same as the MDMF hangars at Culdrose and the aircraft fit lovely in there.
So to summarise, a spread Merlin at 6.6 metres is 1.4 metres below the metal trusses (assuming 8 metres from floor to trusses) at its highest point. The main oleos have a stroke of 406mm, which gives a total gap of 994 mm as the wheels leave the ground. Add a random 194mm for clearance and you still have 800mm clearance. If you want to reclaim top clearance turn the tail rotor so two blades sit at 45 degrees to vertical and apply the rotor brake, or position the aircraft so that the tail rotor is between roof trusses and of course always jack in the middle of the apex if you are able to. Piece of cake for people used to jacking at sea.
I’m too old to go clambering around with a tape measure so if you want an accurate roof truss height I’m afraid you have to ask someone else and I’ll concede the point if I’m wrong.

Cheers