Bell 525 Relentless

[Senior Pilot]

Bell's latest teaser:

fs4RWw-ZuzM

sAQhrlQx5_c

[SASless]

In a Class all by itself.....

Not a Huey then.....must be yet another rendition of a Jet Ranger. Perhaps it will be some new thingy in the dashboard....say oh.....Sirius Sat Radio with an MP3 port for an iPhone or iPad.

Even if they bring out a "new" model....how much you want to bet the Rotorhead shall be old time Bell stuff....and nothing along the lines of an articulated rotor head....or have all the rotors in the same plane....and certainly it shall have an even number of blades....either 2 or 4.

You can also count on the seats being akin to sitting on a 2x10 plank....with no adjustment to it.

Do I sound cynical?:oh:

[Matari]

Senior Pilot's teaser (post 19) is kind of fun to try and figure out.

For example:

At :07 is that skid landing gear?
At :23-25 I see the crew door/window then three pax windows, so at least maybe 12 pax (4 across x 3 rows?)
At :28-29 the main rotor head appears, with big old lead-lag dampers (no fancy composite construction?)
At :11 and :34 a nice riveted panel joint (again, no fancy composites).

So, from all this I can glean we have a 12 pax, skid-gear equipped, conventional aluminum fuselage constructed, multi-bladed helicopter with a fairly standard main rotor head.

I guess we shall know soon enough!

[helihub]

Yes, it will be in a class by itself because they are inventing a new class name - Super Medium. Bell are Relentless in their marketing and cannot hide their trade mark applications ;-)

For a big corporation to seemingly put a lot of R&D money into a Super Medium really makes you wonder what the PR guys were doing that day. Maybe they were down at the Super Clairvoyant with the Finance Director?

Let's wish them the best of luck. If it is genuinely a new aircraft (they've said that before, right?), I reckon on 7-tonne auw to face the EC175 head-on. You can all mark me out of 10 within a few days....

Matari - I think there are a total of five windows down the side around 22-25 secs through that video

[Encyclo]

I Think we have finally broken the code on this latest Bell offering;

3 diesel engines,
9 blades
at least 3 skid tubes (redundancy?)
Full CRT cockpit

Come on guys, let's be a little creative :8

[SASless]

Latest rumor....Bell 214ST air frame, Y model Huey dynamics, Television Dashboard, retractable gear.....mix of old and legacy improvements....but not in any way a "New" helicopter.

We'll know before not too much longer won't we?

[Gordy]

Latest rumor....Bell 214ST air frame, Y model Huey dynamics, Television Dashboard, retractable gear.....mix of old and legacy improvements....but not in any way a "New" helicopter.

We'll know before not too much longer won't we?

Was on the show floor last night----Bell has their whole stand surrounded by a temporary wall so that no-one get get a look.

[John Eacott]

Latest rumor....Bell 214ST air frame, Y model Huey dynamics, Television Dashboard, retractable gear.....mix of old and legacy improvements....but not in any way a "New" helicopter.

We'll know before not too much longer won't we?

Here you go, SASsy

http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/4785-1/Bell+525.jpg

[topendtorque]

Large and "substantial looking" tail boom, presumably room for the billy lids.
tet

[griffothefog]

Bells 525 looks like a mini EH101... :sad:

[tottigol]

Reminds me of this:
http://crimso.msk.ru/Images6/AE/AE72-11/221-2.jpg

And is just as ugly.

[SASless]

I have been warned I shall eat my words upon the unveiling....comes from someone who is in the know!:\

We shall see!:oh:

[Tcabot113]

Tot,

On the 525 none of you are even close.

TC

[Savoia]

The about-to-be-disclosed Bell 525 certainly 'looks' the business and, from all accounts so far, will offer a capacity and range with the potential to successfully engage her competitors across the OAG market.

I sincerely hope that this time Bell gets it right. Technical merit and reliable performance are the minimum requirements of those serving the market which Bell now pursues but to experience the success they seek will mean matching this with real economic performance. This, with the latter addressed, will give them a chance.

Will they achieve it?

Here's a look at some of Bell's civilian blunders!

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-aJnd2c1s_xY/TzezLXa9iAI/AAAAAAAAHzY/tb0F12YrGtA/s800/222.png

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-Ynvr746-urg/TzezJ1a8bMI/AAAAAAAAHzY/4nIEG2RuQ6o/s800/214ST.png

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-N8Xg_4Ag0Dc/TzezJ11XewI/AAAAAAAAHzY/atMhNcScrdA/s800/206LT.png

https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ONpV47Eq9fQ/TzezLroL5pI/AAAAAAAAHzY/VjyExKj8qIo/s800/427.png

Congrats to the Bell 525 team for coming up with a sleek design and my best wishes for their success in this project.

This site presumably to come online later today? http://bell525smt.net/

[Gordy]

SASless...

I have been warned I shall eat my words upon the unveiling....comes from someone who is in the know!

I have it from someone "in the know" also---new model, he would not say much more, but I am guessing 5 blades..

[SansAnhedral]

I have been warned I shall eat my words upon the unveiling....comes from someone who is in the know!

We shall see!

Didnt you wonder why you were "quoted for posterity"? :}

[Savoia]

.. I am guessing 5 blades..

Bell do have a habit of prefixing their models using a numerical value which reflects the number of main rotor blades.

[SASless]

Sans.....I clearly stated I was guessing....and noted that I am cynical when it comes to Bell's history of innovation post the UH-1 series. Any one with inside info can of course think themselves sage and all knowing. I am outside the loop in that regard which any dullard would see as putting me at a disadvantage.

There is an old Greek Proverb that fits this situation....

"I should smell my hand and know what you are thinking?"

In this case my hand knows naught of what Bell is thinking....beyond what a little birdie told me yesterday. In due time we all shall learn of what Bell's latest offering holds.

We do know they have gone after a copyright for the "525" name.

Following their past record...first number denoting numbers of rotor blades...then odds are it shall be a five bladed head but that would be a first for Bell as it seems the Engineering Department has to use a thumb to count which limits them to no more than "four". As the second number could mean anything...and the third number being ever more nebulous...who knows what they shall roll over.

As you work for Bell...why don't you enlighten us...rather than sounding like a smart ass...errrrr...rather a Christian holding four Aces?

I am still putting my money on a 214ST Clone of some sort.....as if that aircraft had been modernized and improved it would have been a real Dandy....especially if it had anything other than a huge whopping two bladed rotor system and such a sorry excuse for an engine starting system. If Bell had done so...there would not be an AW-139 today probably.

[206Fan]

Starting shortly.

Bell Helicopter (http://www.bellonamission.com/webcast.php)

[Epiphany]

I'll bet it looks like a Bell 412 / AW139 hybrid - with the same UH1-H windscreen wiper motors.

[SansAnhedral]

As you work for Bell...why don't you enlighten us...rather than sounding like a smart ass...errrrr...rather a Christian holding four Aces?

I only wish that were the case! I just happen to have a few acquaintances in the loop, so to speak.

In any case, that was a rather slick looking mockup. Hope you got a chance to see the webcast.

[MikeNYC]

From Google Cache of the bell525 site:

FIRST commercial helicopter to define the super-medium class by combining best-in-class performance characteristics and passenger amenities with maximized situational awareness of the ARC Horizon flight deck.
FIRST commercial helicopter to incorporate fly-by-wire flight controls, delivering superior handling qualities and increased level of safety through the ability to seamlessly react in austere environments.
FIRST commercial helicopter to incorporate the Garmin G5000H, a touchscreen avionics suite, for enhanced situational awareness and improved pilot integration.
FIRST commercial helicopter to incorporate Bell’s LATD™ tail boom technology for improved hover performance.

[MikeNYC]

Site just went live: Bell Helicopter (http://bell525smt.net/)

http://bell525smt.net/_images/helicopter-grid.png



Seating 2 Crew 16 Passengers
Power Plant GE® CT7-2F1
Avionics Garmin G5000H™ 4x15-in. Touchscreen Displays
Flight Controls BAE Systems
Fly-By-Wire
PERFORMANCE
MGW >18,000 lbs. >8,180 kg
Speed >140 kts 260 kmy/h
Range >400 nm >740 km

[Savoia]

http://www.ainonline.com/sites/ainonline.com/files/uploads/magellan_overallview_print.jpg
The Bell 525 “Relentless” super-medium twin, the largest civil helicopter in the company’s history. The helicopter is an 18,000-pound “plus” ship aimed squarely at the offshore market with a range of more than 400 nm, at a speed near 150 knots and a ceiling of 20,000 feet


The 525 is a culmination of the “Project-X” and “Magellan” research programs that first came to light in a series of leaked inter-company memos more than a year ago. Bell has been working on the 525 “on and off” for more than a decade, said company senior vice president Larry Roberts. The helicopter’s value proposition is to offer medium helicopter economics while delivering large helicopter comfort and capabilities. It will be powered by a pair of GE CT7-2 engines (1,800 shp each) driving an all-composite five-bladed main rotor system and a four-bladed tailrotor. Roberts said the rotor system and transmission have been optimized for the engines. The aircraft will incorporate a triple-redundant fly-by-wire flight control system with a BAE flight computer that borrows lessons learned on the Bell/Boeing V-22 and AW609 (formerly Bell/Agusta 609) tiltrotors.

The big helicopter also will feature the new Garmin G5000H touchscreen-controlled glass panel integrated avionics suite with four main displays and Telligence voice command capabilities, two key components of Bell’s new ARC (awareness, react and control) cockpit. The ergonomic cockpit features pilot seats that J-track, pushing back and swiveling, for ease of egress. Right-hand, fly-by-wire side sticks replace the conventional cyclics. The ARC cockpit gives flight crews a level of comfort and awareness “they have never had before in a helicopter,” Roberts said. That includes the ability to see over the helicopter’s nose.

ARC is intuitive and can sense, for example, when system failures require an autorotation and it automatically sets up the helicopter to enter one. “The system gives the crew the ability to react very quickly,” Roberts said. “The pilot can think about other critical things in those five to six seconds rather than worrying if the collective is down and the aircraft is in the right attitude.”

“In critical situations the system identifies the problem and does something about it,” said Larry Thimmesch, Bell vice president of new programs.

While chock-full of new technology, Thimmesch said that the 525’s cockpit will not be so complicated as to befuddle pilots. “This is the first touchscreen interface in a Part 29 helicopter, but we are not over-designing this thing so it is the Starship Enterprise. This technology makes sense to the operator,” he said. That includes “unparalleled” real-time health usage and monitoring systems data transmitted via uplink with trend monitoring and diagnostic capabilities.

The 525’s composite and metal airframe also features an emphasis on ease of maintenance and durability. “Our design goal is to be able to remove and replace any (line replaceable unit [LRU]) aircraft component in ten minutes, and that includes access,” said Thimmesch. “To do that we used quarter-turn fasteners for non-structural aircraft panels and standard link fasteners to get around structural panels. Also, you don’t have to remove one LRU to get at another,” he said.

Thimmesch said Bell evaluated more than 20 years of data to identify maintenance cost drivers for the offshore industry in designing the 525 and found that 32 percent of maintenance is related to fighting corrosion. Bell is using monolithic composites in places susceptible to corrosion, such as the lower airframe structures, and also designing in floor drainage. “Once you get water into a structure, you can’t get it out so the best solution is to not let it get in there,” he said. Conversely, metal airframe parts are sometimes easier to inspect, so Bell has not totally eschewed them on the 525. “It comes down to using the right materials in the right place,” Thimmesch said. “Composites make sense for reducing the parts count and for complex curves, but for simplicity of design and structural integrity, metal makes sense in the ‘big bones’ structures.” Thimmesch calls the approach “hybrid construction.”

Roberts said the 525’s tailboom has been designed to provide less resistance and more lift that translates into higher hover out of ground effect altitude than conventional designs. “The placement of the tailrotor and the torque derived from it is based on a different formulation than anything you have ever seen before in the helicopter market,” he said.
While the five-bladed main rotor is a commercial first for Bell, its design will be fairly conventional. “It’s a conventional airfoil with canted blades to broaden the center of gravity envelope,” Roberts said. “You won’t see any big dihedrals on the tips.”

Entry to the 525’s 4.5-foot tall cabin is through a pair of hinged doors located between the cockpit and the first row of four seating areas or through a pair of large aft sliding doors. Each seating area offers comfortable four-abreast seating for a total of 16 passengers. A higher-density passenger cabin is anticipated. The aft baggage compartment will be configurable, possibly with a sliding cargo pallet, with room for the equivalent of 37 sets of golf clubs.

Roberts said the 525’s first flight would likely occur sometime in 2013 or 2014 and that the company is aiming for certification in 2015. He said the 525 will likely be priced between the AgustaWestland AW189 and Eurocopter EC225. The 525 was designed to be cost competitive from a value perspective for any mission between 50 and 400 nm currently performed by helicopters ranging from AW139s to Sikorsky S-92As, he added.

Concurrent to designing the 525, Bell is developing various kits for the aircraft and plans to have the most popular available when the aircraft is delivered. Bell plans to have a flight simulator on line by the time the first 525 is delivered. Second-tier kits will be available during the first year of delivery with more specialized kits coming later. In addition to offshore, Bell envisions a variety of uses for the 525 including law enforcement, EMS, SAR, coastal patrol and VVIP configurations.

Last month Bell CEO John Garrison announced that the 525 would be built at the company’s Amarillo, Texas plant, currently home of the Bell/Boeing V-22 final assembly line. That program has been a cash cow for Bell, but is widely seen as winding down in the face of anticipated Pentagon budget cuts. Roberts said it was a safe bet that Bell would offer a military variant of the 525 in the future. Currently 320 Bell employees in Fort Worth, Texas, and Mirabel, Quebec are working on the program. Roberts expects that number to increase to 500 in the near future. The 525’s program costs are estimated near $500 million and are part of a $1 billion facility, research and development and inventory investment program Bell announced earlier this year.


Bell 525 Relentless News Release (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/hai-convention-news/2012-02-12/relentless-525-be-largest-bell-helicopter)

[MikeNYC]

Seems it's designed to directly compete against the AW189, no? The external design also smacks of the 214ST with cleaned-up lines and a new tailboom.

[Anthony Supplebottom]

The link to the Bell 525 website at the bottom of post #1 is now fully operational and contains lots of interesting information.

A beautiful helicopter.

Well done Bell. :D:D:D

[jeffg]

Seems it's designed to directly compete against the AW189, no? The external design also smacks of the 214ST with cleaned-up lines and a new tailboom

When was the last time you saw a 214ST? They look nothing alike.

[Savoia]

http://shephardmedia.com/static/images/article/SMT_cropped.jpg
Bell's 525 Relentless mock-up debuts at today's Heli-Expo show

Bob Suggs is no longer with us and his wife Carol no longer involved in running the show .. making PHI's support for Bell all the more incredible! :ok: ;)

.

[MikeNYC]

When was the last time you saw a 214ST? They look nothing alike.

You see no similarities between this 214ST and the new 525 image above? Other than the obvious (new tail, rotor system, engine inlets etc) to me there is a clear lineage in the design from one design to the next.

http://cdn-www.airliners.net/aviation-photos/middle/2/8/0/0828082.jpg

[GoodGrief]

I see more similarities to the S76.

[Savoia]

Unless you are talking about a basic similarity in size there really is nothing to link the 214ST to the 525. If there is .. then please go ahead name them!

GoodGrief, instead of developing the 'D' model Sikorsky would have developed a '77' (or whatever) and taken on something like this. It would have been a 'natural' progression for the 76 in my view. Too late now but credit to Bell for pursuing this ambitious project.

[JB-123]

1. Side arm controllers in a civilain helicopter - very interesting and some would say about time?
2. Looks like a 76 on steroids
3. Unrestricted forward visibility - it will need it with the nose up attitude on a rig approach if the 76 is anything to go by
4. Competing against the 189 and the 175 and playing catch up - but good look to Bell

[Savoia]

Look! Gordy's new ride:

http://www.bell525supermedium.net/_images/missions/missions-firefighting.jpg
Bell 525 fire fighter

[rotorrookie]

The dinosaur has woken up of its long sleep finally and brought a great looking helicopter full of new goodies to the fight....

[rancid]

wowwww...:8:8

[Gordy]

Look! Gordy's new ride:

Yep...hopefully... There was lots of music and smoke for the unveilling:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/IMG_1553.jpg

This is the front end... The seats rotate out on tracks to allow easy access. It is a fly by wire helicopter with arm rest controllers instead of conventional controls:

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/IMG_1565.jpg

http://i76.photobucket.com/albums/j35/helokat/IMG_1566.jpg

[vaqueroaero]

I like it. Good to see they have finally got away from Kratos screens.
I hope it works out for them.

[Shawn Coyle]

The fly-by-wire part is pretty gutsy. Based on the work they've done with the V-22 systems. Triple redundant, etc.
Should be quite the interesting development.
Not sure the certification world for helicopters will be ready for this, but welcome to the 21st century!

[SASless]

Well praise the Lord!

If she flies as good as she looks....she will be a winner.

But....the proof is in the pudding as they say!

Somebody...quick...tell me about the pilot seats....they going to be as comfortable as a 2x10 plank? Do the Pilot access doors latch open or do you still have to use your foot to hold the things open? Do the doors open a full 180 degrees or only half way?

How's that left seat going to work for long lining?

Overhead Power Levers or just some posh switches that say....OFF/RUN/FLY?

[rotorrookie]

I wonder if its possible to play Angry Birds while flying, and another thing, after all these years of happiness over having your hand in your crotch all day long and getting paid for it, how the heck are you supposed to get used to this Airbus stick

[SASless]

Knowing the "Greenies" I was burdened with....this is going to be a Dog's Breakfast!:uhoh:

Unless the system is self diagnosing and has a big pink finger to point out the ailing module....then maybe things will work out.:ok:

[hillberg]

It won't look anything like the mockup. It will be a pain when it thinks for the pilot & surprizes him with an Auto Auto in to the ground.:eek:

#1 rule keep it simple stupid.:}
#2 rule let the military pay for R & D.:=

Certification will be a bitch.:mad:

[chopper2004]

Was standing near the front and got video footage though slightly disappointed by the music! Lol

Very interesting to millennium falcon style cockpit revolving seats :ok: but was genuinely impressed with the design and yes I thought at first some similarity to the 214st but was proven wrong.

Relentless by Name Relentless by Nature can see that a lot of hard work has gone into this

Round 2 tomorrow!

Cheers

[SASless]

Her feet seem awfully small....and if she rolls over on her side...how does one get out of her in a hurry?

[chopper2004]

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120104.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120100.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120106.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120114.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120158.jpg



http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120154.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120117.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/P2120157.jpg

Cheers

[somepitch]

Really nice looking machine IMO...

The first machine of that class that I've actually thought "Cool, I want to fly that!"

[Senior Pilot]

Well praise the Lord!

If she flies as good as she looks....she will be a winner.

But....the proof is in the pudding as they say!

Somebody...quick...tell me about the pilot seats....they going to be as comfortable as a 2x10 plank? Do the Pilot access doors latch open or do you still have to use your foot to hold the things open? Do the doors open a full 180 degrees or only half way?

What Pilot access doors? That's why they swivel, you have to get out via the forward cabin door: great for Emergency Exit, battling the bears for egress :=

Her feet seem awfully small....and if she rolls over on her side...how does one get out of her in a hurry?

My immediate thoughts were that they haven't learnt from the A109 development of the undercarriage. Retracting into the fuselage takes up space (which could be used for fuel or baggage) and lots of weight for complex undercarriage. A pair of sponsons would both widen the track for stability, and simplify the retraction and associated ironmongery.

But hey, what do we know ;)

[havick]

Do they have a flying prototype or was that just a mock up / concept?

[spinwing]

Mmmm ....

A good effort from the Bell folk ...

I think though that Agusta still have the front run with their 189 ....

Those that are familiar with the 139/189 can see how very easy it will be to put 'fly by wire' into those airframes as a natural development ....

I won't see it (probably a good thing ;)) as my 'useby' is rapidly approaching but others will ....

The Bell advantage as always will be SUPPORT of their product ... :D

[Encyclo]

Are the Pro Pilot Helicopter Product Support survey results out for this year?

Who's #1 this year?

[AdamFrisch]

Nice looking.....but didn't Sikorsky make this in 1977 already?

[Nubian]

From how the controls looks like, and it being fly-by-wire it must be an easy transition from a newish excavator..... but then again those skilled operators, may not want to take a paycut associated with the career move....:\

Is this a result of Mr. Lappos's involvement with Bell?? Sure looks like a 76, and didn't the RAH-66 have fly-by-wire....

[somepitch]

I don't see the 76 resemblance... Granted it's pointy at the front, has a tail rotor and some windows, but that's where the resemblance ends for me...:}

I think it's closer to the AW products if anything but the cockpit looks better with the big side windows...

[IceHeli]

That Auto Auto sounds a bit scary...

[tottigol]

Kuros to SP pointers, I'd like to add that for a helicopter (of any size) those swiveling seats seem to be an awful lot of wasted space, more like a show off.
The specs in the web site do not really knock my socks off so to speak: the 189 already does 16 pax, 400nm plus and 150 Kts cruise.
Good luck in certifying the very first CIVILIAN FBW in a helicopter.

"Auto Auto" ... with a female voice:D

[spinwing]

Mmm ...

.... "Auto Auto" ... with a female voice ...

It'll will fit so well with the "oh **** Oh ****" ... male voice!


:E

[SASless]

Gee....no Pilot Access doors...hmmmm odd thing that. The Captain is supposed to be the last person off a sinking ship right? "After you Bubba! Now Coey...do let the nice Man go first as he is a passenger, Lad!"

With itty bitty tires like the ones on the mockup....no risk of this thing ever working off other than steel decks or paved aprons, taxi ways, and runways.

Even then...it will take a strong deck to support all that weight on such a small footprint.

How's the gear doors going to like lots of mud and snow stuffed into them?

I know Bell has thought of all this as they put this concept together....right?

[jeffg]

Gee....no Pilot Access doors...hmmmm odd thing that

How big are the pilot acces doors on the S-92?

[SASless]

Jeff....think companionways on big helicopters.

76's have an unusual use for pilot doors too....but having to swivel yer chair around to exit the cockpit? May we assume the side window will be jettison able thus providing an emergency exit? That would be logical.

[griffothefog]

And legal Sas...:eek:

[PANews]

Do they have a flying prototype or was that just a mock up / concept?

When Garrison was specifically asked whether metal had been cut on the prototype he effectively refused to aswer which seemed to suggest no.:ooh:

With a first flight in just two years I would have expected that something had been 'cut' ..... the mock up probably used existing parts for the 'finished' items like u/c.

[griffothefog]

There is no doubt Bell are long over due in the civil arena for such an aircraft, but the cynic in me says they are pushing a product they cannot deliver until well after AW and EC get there girls on line :=

I mean certification for a plank cockpit? Years....:ugh:

[Lonewolf_50]

SAS, and various gentlemen ...
But....the proof is in the pudding as they say!

World Wide Words: Proof of the pudding (http://www.worldwidewords.org/qa/qa-pro1.htm)
They also say that "The proof of the whiskey is in the flame!" ;) Well, they do where I'm from.
... after all these years of happiness over having your hand in your crotch all day long and getting paid for it, how the heck are you supposed to get used to this Airbus stick
The answer to this was provided later ...
Is this a result of Mr. Lappos's involvement with Bell?? Sure looks like a 76, and didn't the RAH-66 have fly-by-wire....

Yes it did, cyclic on the RH side. RAH-66 also had no rudder pedals. Save weight but added a required monkey skill of "wrist twist" for anti-torque control.
Bell has retained rudder pedals. Wonder why they did that? (Hmm, perhaps due to its not being a DoD contract? :-)
Retracting into the fuselage takes up space (which could be used for fuel or baggage) and lots of weight for complex undercarriage. A pair of sponsons would both widen the track for stability, and simplify the retraction and associated ironmongery.
Yes, but then it wouldn't look as cool as an S-76. (The Lappos influence seems a valid assumption ...)
There is no doubt Bell are long over due in the civil arena for such an aircraft, but the cynic in me says they are pushing a product they cannot deliver until well after AW and EC get there girls on line
I mean certification for a plank cockpit? Years....
They may be relying on some political muscle for US cert, and once US cert, some momentum for other certs ... but I agree with your point.

It appears that they won't be 'first in" at this point.

[jeffg]

Companion ways yes SAS, I knew the answer before I asked. Just pointing out that not having pilot access doors is not all that unusual. The swivel seats are for standard ingress/egress, and it looks to be much easier than a S-92 normal ingress/egress via the companion way. The big windows are jettisonable for emergency egress.

[Savoia]

They may be relying on some political muscle for US cert.

Unquestionably.

Nice to see what a little product launch can do to Textron's share price!

Close of business Friday:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-fGApB-RL3gY/TzmB6vlaHVI/AAAAAAAAH0s/ENvI9E_eMrQ/s800/TXT%2520Share%2520Price%252011th%2520Feb.png

4pm Eastern Standard Time today:

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-P2vzlmnJaZI/TzmB6ixukgI/AAAAAAAAH0s/ka0RGMfWL_I/s800/TXT%2520Share%2520Price%252014th%2520Feb.png

[Brian Abraham]

The cockpit has certainly come a long way since the first baby Bell with the throttle twist grip on top of the cyclic, collective control by vertical movement of a lever sticking out of the instrument panel, and directional control by lateral movement of the collective lever.

Looks nice, and agree looks 76ish on steroids.

[Capt Hollywood]

Hmmm, where have I seen that before....

http://i112.photobucket.com/albums/n197/danodwyer/Hosted%20pics/Bell525.jpg

[Mitch Vernon]

Love your work CH

[B1.3 Drifter]

Is it just me or are the 'Professionals' on here being a little unrealistic?

It's a medium twin helicopter!
Hello! It's going to bear some resemblance to other medium twin helicopters. Does an Airbus not have some similarities to a Boeing?

It's a Bell!
Hello! It's going to bear some resemblance to (and probably share some parts with) other Bell's. Does an EC130 not have some similarities to an AS350?

It's nice to share opinions and even a little speculation and banter but some of the 'Statements of Fact' on here would make us think you've had first hand contact with the design process. Not surprisingly, some have already been proved dead wrong (SASless et al) and no doubt others will be.

Not surprisingly, those that have actually been present at the launch have made the most clued up posts and all seem to genuinely like the product. Lets hear more from them and less from the armchair experts.

Fantastic work Bell. Keep it up and lets judge it as each phase is completed and revealed rather than before.

Carry on

[industry insider]

Looks to me like they copied this 2002 prototype from Bristow Redhill Engineering...

http://i186.photobucket.com/albums/x191/timhcollins/bellsky.jpg

[Savoia]

I.I. What on earth is that! :eek:

[SansAnhedral]

II looks an awful lot like an actual SAC design

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/S76shadow.jpg

(I sincerely hope nobody was fooled by that rather poor photoshop)

[Lonewolf_50]

Sans, is that an S-76 that was used to try out some of the FBW controls for RAH-66? My memory seems to put that association together, but I am not sure why.

[SansAnhedral]

You hit the nail on the head. It was called the S-76 SHADOW (Sikorsky Helicopter Advanced Demonstrator and Operator Workload).

They even painted it, for some odd reason

http://www.aviastar.org/foto/sik_shadow_1.jpg

[SASless]

B1...when we get to seeing part numbers on this 525....we shall see how much 214ST stuff is there. I shall not be surprised to see some. Do recall Bell 47 parts were incorporated on 205,212, and 412 aircraft models.

It is easy to prove one wrong when one is putting forth satirical talk. I applaud you for being able to do so.

[griffothefog]

We just love to be negative in our old age, but some chaps just don't get it :{

[matt82]

Such things are called MAPL - "modern affordable product line" :oh: ... also in case of parts....

[Lonewolf_50]

Thank you, Sans, this means my memory is better than I thought. :ok:

[EN48]

Who's #1 this year?

At the Bell Technical Briefing at HAI was announced that Pro Pilot results have Bell in the no. position again - IIRC 17 consecutive years

[Encyclo]

17 was last year; should be 18 in 2012.

Congrats to the fine people of Bell Support.:D

I wonder what the ranking is for 2012?

[MLHeliwrench]

We shall see whats under the hood, so-to-speak.

The CT7-2A powers the 214ST so I would not be surprised to see if they use the C-Box from the ST for these new CT7-F models.

I could not tell from any of the pictures if the cabin is open beneath the mast. Anyone have any pictures showing this? They may even keep the Transmission from the ST if there is a "hell hole". I would hope they make a simpler single "big gear" one like the 429 which would keep it all on the roof.

When I was on the Bell 214ST maintenance training course two years ago, one day there were 6 bell design engineers crawling all over the training airframe taking notes. We joked with them and asked if bell was coming out with a 414! They said we weren't to far off.....

All I know is I sure hope they found a better way to start the damn GE engines rather than using 8 relays to put the batteries in series after 6 seconds, then take the generators off the bus and straight to the other engine letting them rip up to 40 volts/ 600 amps. I am sure these new engines are full FADEC and starts will be a simple computerized affair.

[Matari]

MLHeliwrench:

I could not tell from any of the pictures if the cabin is open beneath the mast. Anyone have any pictures showing this?
No hellhole. Cabin is open four rows, four across, 16 pax.

Bell Helicopter - Interior (http://bell525smt.net/interior)

[skadi]

Question about Sikorsky Shadow: Did they upgrade the prototype with PT6 Engines? On the pics same C/S, but different donks...

skadi

[Bell_Flyer]

I wonder if the 5 rotor blades will require 5 TT straps that expires every 2 years? Does anyone know? :)

[Savoia]

I wonder if the 5 rotor blades will require 5 TT straps that expires every 2 years? Does anyone know?

What I heard was that this was precisely their intention. Indeed the proposed straps (so I understand) made an important contribution to the programmes fiscal viability in hastening the closure of their cost recovery period.

Apparently though, it was Bell's marketing team who eventually suggested that the PR associated with five lots of biannual strap replacements might work against their campaign to bring this bird to market and so it was decided that their 'excessive-profits-from-purposely-poorly-designed-parts-related-revenue-generation' strategy would be handled more surreptitiously! ;)

[Shawn Coyle]

It has an APU for starting. Nice move.

[MLHeliwrench]

Nice! and APU is a great feature.

[SASless]

One APU beats the 214ST start system by light years!

Is the APU Battery start.....or use a hydraulic accumulator like the Chinook?

[PhlyingGuy]

Bell helicopter shows off newest product (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/10/31/bell-helicopter-shows-off-newest-product/)

Nice video!
:D

[Anthony Supplebottom]

Are we meant to guess where this new article and video are?

[PhlyingGuy]

Bell Helicopter Shows Off Newest Product « CBS Dallas / Fort Worth (http://dfw.cbslocal.com/2012/10/31/bell-helicopter-shows-off-newest-product/)

Trying this again... I had to wait until the post was approved the first time and I'm not sure what happened?

[Ascend Charlie]

Oh, the journalism...

"Fly-by-wire means a computer sits between the pilots hand control and the rudders.":{

[tottigol]

At last they finally replaced the wire cables that were in the previous airships.
See? And we all thought that Bell built helicopters.

[PhlyingGuy]

The Bell 525's enhanced specifications include a flight cruise speed at max continuous power and max gross weight of 155+ kts (306 kph), a range of 500+ nm (926 km) and a useful load of 7,400+ lbs (3,357 kg). The maximum gross weight for the Relentless is 19,300+ lbs (8,754 kg). The Bell 525 Relentless can also perform CAT-A take offs and landings to and from a helipad at maximum gross weight on a hot day.

Based on continued engagement with the Customer Advisory Panel, Bell Helicopter has updated design features as well. Sponsons were added to the aft fuselage for retractable wheeled landing gear and internally-stowed floatation devices. The sponsons will provide a weight-efficient configuration for fuel-efficient, high-speed flight. In addition, a cross-sectional area of the tail boom was reduced to optimize payload and airframe lateral drag in sideward flight. Cowls and fairings above the cabin roof were modified for easy maintenance. With the input of pilots, the flight deck arrangement was slightly adjusted to further improve situational awareness.


Bell provides 525 Relentless program update | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://helihub.com/2013/06/17/bell-provides-525-relentless-program-update/)

[tottigol]

Wow, talk about smoke and mirrors.


A max cruise speed of 155+ Kts definitely excludes the 500 nm range, make it more like maybe 400 nm, "MAYBE" if you want to keep the OGP fuel reserves.

For that 500nm range the "whatever whatever" carries a full bag of 634 (+) gallons, that's a whopping 4311 lbs of gas to go there at best cruise (definitely NOT 155 plus knots).

A best 7400 lbs of USEFUL load @ that range leaves the unfortunate customer with 3090 (optimistic) lbs of payload; in the GoM on crew change day that means 10 pax plus bags, that is if you consider the pilots as passengers.

The 19,300 lbs MGW minus the useful load leaves a BOW (hey we're forgetting the pilots here, right?) of 11,900 lbs (right on target with Bell's best policy of lightweight airframes if we have to learn from the 429 :rolleyes: ).

Based on continued engagement with the Customer Advisory Panel, Bell Helicopter has updated design features as well.

"Sponsons were added to the aft fuselage for retractable wheeled landing gear and internally-stowed floatation devices. The sponsons will provide a weight-efficient configuration for fuel-efficient, high-speed flight."
Because YOU KNOW that NO OTHER helicopter with retractable landing gear comes with sponsons and internally stowed floatation devices.

"In addition, a cross-sectional area of the tail boom was reduced to optimize payload and airframe lateral drag in sideward flight."
Because YOU KNOW that helicopters DO spend most of their flight time going sideways, especially the ones going offshore.

"Cowls and fairings above the cabin roof were modified for easy maintenance."
Easy maintenance of the cowling themselves or something more important, like the engines for example.

"With the input of pilots, the flight deck arrangement was slightly adjusted to further improve situational awareness."
So that the pilots CAN share their main egress with the first row of passengers (as in the S-76), having also to swivel their seats around to get out of the door, AFTER having to slide them backward.:ok:

[Ian Corrigible]

Update on the 525's schedule, c/o Flight.

Bell 525 'lagging' behind Q4 first flight target (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bell-525-39lagging39-behind-q4-first-flight-target-403829/)

The FF slippage is not unexpected for such a complex platform, though the claim that Bell plans "delivery to launch customer PHI in the first quarter of 2016" is eye-catching. Does Bell really have any chance of certifying a super medium twin in the space of ~12 months? As a reminder, the AW189 took 26 months from FF (or 51 months if one counts from the AW149's first flight), while the EC175 took 49 months.

I/C

[John Eacott]

ANALYSIS: Bell 525 Relentless cutaway and technical description, Flight Global
(http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/analysis-bell-525-relentless-cutaway-and-technical-405541/)

If everything goes to plan and Bell Helicopter delivers its first 525 Relentless in 2016 to an as-yet unannounced customer, it will mark the end of the first chapter in the battle for market supremacy in the emerging segment for super-medium rotorcraft. Rivals AgustaWestland and Airbus Helicopters have already attained certification of their offerings in the weight class with the AW189 and EC175, respectively, so to some extent Bell is playing catch-up. Of course the company argues that the 525 will be worth waiting for – offering a higher maximum take-off weight (MTOW), better performance and reliability and, with a cockpit kitted out with the latest avionics and fly-by-wire controls, massively enhanced safety.

Of course, at this point in the development – with first flight still several months away – those performance characteristics are still at the theoretical stage, but Bell remains confident. It has already raised the maximum speed and range on one previous occasion and still remains coy on the MTOW figure, merely saying it will be “north of 19,300lb” – or 8.75t – suggesting a further bump at certification.

But to fully appreciate what Bell is trying to achieve, it is worth considering the drivers behind the evolution of the new segment. All three rotorcraft manufacturers are pitching their super-mediums primarily at operators working in the offshore oil and gas transportation industry, with search and rescue the second target market. Growth in oil and gas has been characterised by the movement of exploration facilities further offshore, requiring more capable rotorcraft to service them. That has given a boost to sales of heavy rotorcraft – essentially the EC225 and Sikorsky S-92 – but has also led to a requirement for something larger and more capable than a typical intermediate helicopter such as the 12-passenger, 6.8t AW139.

That was the message the industry delivered to Bell when it embarked upon the initial studies for the programme in 2009. Its customer advisory panel (CAP) featured operators representing all major segments, says Bell senior vice-president of commercial programmes Matt Hasik. And although the airframer knew from the outset it would be “a medium-twin or medium-plus-type aircraft” regular contact with the CAP over the early months meant it was able to “finalise and crystallise the key value proposition and characteristics of the aircraft”. Hasik goes so far as to suggest that customers “have their fingerprints on the design of this aircraft”.

“One of things that we heard from a number of our oil and gas customers was the landscape of the oil and gas market was changing and potentially changing quite dramatically over the next 10 years,” he says.

“We wanted to ensure that we were designing and developing and flying an aircraft with superior productivity and economics. That’s where the size and capability of the 525 as a super-medium really fits well for us.”

At the time of the 525’s launch at the 2012 Heli-Expo show, AgustaWestland and what was then Eurocopter had already shown their hands with their super-medium helicopters, so Bell had reasonable visibility on where to place the Relentless.

During the design process, a number of factors were addressed, including performance, reliability, in-cabin comfort, safety and ease and cost of maintenance. “Across every single one of these dimensions, it will be a best-in-class machine,” says Hasik.

In the offshore market, safety has not been far from the headlines recently, with a focus in particular on the North Sea. Hasik points out that of the 11 design recommendations contained in the UK Civil Aviation Authority’s CAP 1145 report issued earlier this year, “the 525 is already compliant with 10 of them”. (For the record, the only one that it – and every other helicopter – cannot meet is the requirement for floatation devices at the top of the fuselage). Stability is ensured through the design of its floatation system and a low centre of gravity, says Hasik. Bell has tested a scale model of the 525 at sea state 6 for standard wave forms and sea state 5 for the uneven wave form (the maximum sea state currently available on the test rig). In both cases it passed without problem, he says. Passengers seated in the four rows of four seats all have easy access to large doors on either side of the fuselage, enabling easy exit. “No passenger is more than one seat away from the outside of this helicopter,” says Hasik. Elsewhere, the cockpit combines the all-new Garmin G5000H avionics suite and touchscreen displays with Bell’s developed-in-house fly-by-wire controls. It will be the first, and for some time the only, commercial helicopter to employ FBW technology, with other manufacturers shying away from the complexity inherent in its development. However, Bell feels that with its several decades of experience behind it – notably on the Bell Boeing V-22 Osprey and AW609 tiltrotors – it can afford to take a risk, albeit a calculated one, on the 525.

“When we stepped back and listened to our customers about their requirements for productivity, safety and reliability, and the kind of things pilots have to do in harsh operating environments, whether landing on a helipad at night in bad weather or performing a SAR mission deep offshore, the capabilities fly-by-wire provides is game-changing in terms of the commercial helicopter today,” says Hasik.

He describes the sidestick controls as “simple and intuitive” and a “natural evolution” of the systems on the AW609 and V-22. “It’s like having something better than a four-axis autopilot on all the time.”

A pilot can initiate a turn and even retrim the aircraft on the way into it and the helicopter will “maintain the attitude, heading, altitude and speed even if you are nowhere near the controls”. It will prove particularly beneficial in high-workload situations where task saturation becomes an issue, Hasik says, adding that with the FBW system, “you can very easily put the aircraft into a very safe operating condition and put eyes out of the window with less worry than you might normally have”. Tactile cues, like those found on modern fixed-wing transport aircraft, have also been added to the controls, allowing the pilot to receive simple feedback about what the helicopter is doing.

Another notable safety feature is triple redundancy on all the hydraulic actuators moving the critical rotor components. “Even in the eventuality of a twin failure the pilot retains sufficient authority to fly the aircraft safely,” says Hasik.

The cockpit features an unusual layout in that the pilots have no doors. Instead, their seats release backwards and pivot along what Bell calls its “J-Track” – as the name suggests, a J-shaped seat track – to allow them to exit the aircraft through the main cabin doors. This allows the creation of a “much more unobstructed field of view” in the front of the aircraft. The absence of cockpit doors and associated structures has removed weight, as well as what Hasik calls a “maintenance headache”.

Power on the 525 comes from a pair of 2,000shp (1,500kW) General Electric CT7-2F1s, a variant of the engines installed on the AW189. The GE powerplants were selected, says Hasik, for two reasons. First, a long history of service with the US military aboard Sikorsky UH-60 Black Hawks has shown the engine to be mature, easy to maintain and reliable, even in difficult operating conditions. “It makes it extremely suitable for this application for a commercial segment where harsh environments are the norm,” says Hasik. The other reason, he adds, is customer demand: “We had some very specific input from a number of operators” which suggested there was a “strong desire” for the incorporation of GE engines onto the Relentless.

Those turboshafts drive a fully articulated, five-blade main rotor with a 55ft (16.7m) diameter and a four-blade tail rotor – both fabricated by Bell from carbonfibre – via a total of seven gearboxes. These are designed to work as efficiently as possible in the event of a loss of lubrication, and Hasik says the company is confident that the 525 will “not only meet but exceed” the 30min main gearbox dry-run capability required for certification. Special finishing operations have been used to produce the surfaces of the gear to maximise the ability to operate with reduced lubrication. Additionally, the gearbox design eliminates the high-speed planetary phase, therefore removing a significant source of heat generation. The gearbox also contains a case-to-ring gear joint designed to efficiently transmit heat away from the box.

Hasik points to Bell’s most recent transmission developed for the 429, which continued to operate for just shy of 4h in a complete run-dry scenario. A small design tweak has also reduced the possibility of a loss of lubrication in the first place, with Bell attaching the main oil cooler directly to the gearbox, so there are no lines or hoses to connect – or conversely to come loose. “It’s a simple thing, but it’s a design feature that helps to reduce the possibility of a leak within the system,” says Hasik.

What all that power should give the Relentless is Category A performance at maximum gross weight. That includes a maximum fuel load of 1.9t based on the standard 2,460 litre (650USgal) fuel tanks, two pilots and 16 passengers in the baseline oil and gas configuration. If a customer wants to trade payload for range, it will be able to fly eight passengers 500nm (925km), compared with 250nm for 16 passengers.

“We did a tremendous amount of homework on operating economics and productivity to ensure we put an aircraft together that met customer expectations for deep offshore missions,” says Hasik, who suggests it makes more sense to measure the 525’s productivity as airlines do with commercial aircraft – on a cost per seat mile basis. Being able to move a large number of people on a deep-water mission means the “economics are compelling”. He also argues that in some circumstances the 525 will be able to out-compete the 12t helicopters sitting in the weight category above it, through offering both better payload/range and lower fuel burn.

The 525’s hybrid composite-aluminium fuselage – around 50% is carbonfibre – enables weight saving over an all-metal construction. This has proved vital in achieving the design of the very deep tail boom without adding significantly to the overall mass. That depth is crucial, however, as it has allowed Bell to create an aerofoil from the tail boom – what it calls the Lift Assisted Tail Design – which harnesses the downwash from the main rotors to provide additional anti-torque control, reducing workload for the tail rotor. Composite has also been employed in and around the cabin – notably in the supporting structure – to minimise the possibility of corrosion inherent in operating in a highly corrosive saltwater environment. Passenger comfort has also featured high on Bell’s list of priorities, with the standard 16-passenger configuration featuring 20in-wide Mecaer-designed seating. Bell also offers a 20-passenger, high-density variant with 16in-wide seats.

Although the planned first flight of the 525 has slipped to early 2015 from late 2014, Hasik is confident the programme is largely on track. The first flight-test article is being put together at its facility in Amarillo, Texas, with assembly due to finish by year end. The main and tail rotor components are currently being produced along with gearbox components. Safety-of-flight testing will be under way shortly as Bell begins the countdown to the maiden sortie. The second flying prototype is following hot on the first’s heels, with the third further back due to the need to produce a ground-test vehicle for installation on an iron bird test rig. A further two test machines will eventually join the fleet, although the latter pair will be closer to the eventual production configuration. Hasik says Bell has been impressed with the benefits that 3D design has conferred on the production process. “It’s been phenomenal how well parts have been coming together and fitting together in terms of fit and finish – that’s been unprecedented in our experience.”

But remembering that the 525’s design has been driven by its customers, Bell is not neglecting them. A meeting of the CAP is due in December at Amarillo to review the progress and see the first aircraft coming together. It may not be available next week, but Hasik is convinced that it will be worth holding out for.

“What we have tried to outline for our customers are the reasons why it’s worth waiting,” he says.http://www.eacott.com.au/gallery/d/7049-2/Bell+525+Relentless+cutaway.jpg

Full size cutaway here (http://www.flightglobal.com/assets/getasset.aspx?itemid=58474)

[Ian Corrigible]

Bell confirms delay to 525 service entry (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/bell-confirms-delay-to-525-service-entry-413420/)

Initial deliveries now "currently forecast for late Q1 2017," 2-years behind the 2015 (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/textron-hints-on-first-bell-525-delivery-in-2015-388464/) date originally floated for Relentless when the program was unveiled in 2012. Still, as Bell's CEO points out,
"people are postponing their major capital acquisition decisions [due to the fall in oil prices] and that’s a good thing for us."
A large order announcement during next week's PAS is hinted at.

I/C

[Ian Corrigible]

Bell Helicopter and Milestone Aviation Group sign LOI for 20 Bell 525 Relentless (http://www.bellhelicopter.com/en_US/News/PressReleases/NewsRelease/NewsRelease.html?ReleaseID=bb666e1f-4f97-4729-b351-513534485fdc)
These aircraft will serve a variety of roles with Milestone’s lessees around the world, including oil and gas, emergency medical service, search and rescue, and utility opportunities. Delivery of aircraft to Milestone is expected to begin in late 2017.
This also represents Milestone's first order with Bell, after several large AW139/AW189, H225 and S-76D/S-92 contracts.

I/C

[HeliHenri]

after several large AW139/AW189, H225 and S-76D/S-92 contracts.



and H175 ;) (28 purchased the same day)

[The Sultan]

After a brief ground run period the 525 has completed first flight.
The Sultan

[chopper2004]

Yep seen a pic form some1 outside the fence on FB,

No official word as yet,

cheers

[The Sultan]

I had the Youtube video linked, but I deleted it after it was pulled from Youtube.

The Sultan

[John Eacott]

Bell's official photos are now online, here (http://www.bell525.com/first_flight)

http://www.bell525.com/_images/1V6A8698.jpg

http://www.bell525.com/_images/SDSL8875.jpg

http://www.bell525.com/_images/1V6A8741.jpg

[laurenson]

have you seen Bell525 first take off, the helicopter looks unstable and with a an aft centre of gravity.

[terminus mos]

This is going to be a good helicopter. Watch out H175 and AW189. At the next show, the Bell Stand will be on my list.

[Nige321]

lamkjerkOfA

[The Sultan]

Laurenson

First flight conducted in 20 knots gusting winds so they already doubled the envelope of the S-97 on its first flight. As to aft cg it is designed to carry 18. Since it only had a crew of two, one would expect an aft cg.

The Sultan

[laurenson]

yes, I have thought that the helicopter is empty, but with full fuel and no passager or test recorder in board, the helicopter will be even more aft CG :confused:

[Lonewolf_50]

have you seen Bell525 first take off, the helicopter looks unstable and with a an aft centre of gravity.
Laurenson:
Did you arrive at this conclusion from being there during lift off and observing this evolution closely, or from viewing a youtube clip?

Sultan:
What has the S-97 got to do with this?

Double the envelope? Do you have the telemetry data for both first flights? :confused:

PS: Tip of the cap to Bell and the 525 team, glad to see the program making progress.

[laurenson]

You have right Lonewolf_50, first congratulation to the team.

Then when I compare the H160 and Bell 525, it seem the bell helicopter is less stable even if the wind could explain that.

[Lonewolf_50]

You have right Lonewolf_50, first congratulation to the team.

Then when I compare the H160 and Bell 525, it seem the bell helicopter is less stable even if the wind could explain that. Perhaps my eye is not as acute as yours in discerning such things. Hell, I'm getting old :{ and the eyes sometimes need a second look to see things clearly.

Anyway, it's exciting to me when someone gets a new model working.
(I still am sad that Comanche got canned. That was a cool bird).

[ATN]

HI,

Why is the T/R tilted downwards? New trend?

[Ian Corrigible]

ATN,

Here you go:

Why angled/tilted tail rotors? (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/339360-why-angled-tilted-tail-rotors.html)
Canted tail rotor pylons, why? (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/426163-canted-tail-rotor-pylons-why.html)
20 degree cant on CH-53 and HH-60 (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/19569-20-degree-cant-ch-53-hh-60-a.html)

For its part, Bell says the main benefits of the 525's canted TR are reduced fuel burn (in combination with the 'lift assist tailboom design') and improved CG characteristics.

I/C

[ATN]

IC,

Thank you. It escaped me that the thrust coud be directed the opposite way, as for example the H175.

[heli1]

Can anyone recall any other time when three brand new helicopter designs have made their first flights all within the same six weeks? Ruling out the S-97,which is XP, it will be interesting to see which of the other two gets certificated and into service first?

[noooby]

I take it they are NOT looking at moving into the HEMS/SAR market with this, looking at the size of those main wheels. Or are the photo's deceiving and the wheels are actually bigger than they look??

[whoknows idont]

I take it they are NOT looking at moving into the HEMS/SAR market with this, looking at the size of those main wheels. Or are the photo's deceiving and the wheels are actually bigger than they look??

Why would you want to do civil HEMS with a 20.000 lb helicopter? :confused:

[The Sultan]

Noooby

The wide stance of the landing gear on the 525 makes it ideal for rough or at sea landings unlike the Puma series and by observation the new Airbus 175. Example below.

http://flightsafety.org/hs/hs_sept-oct04.pdf

The Sultan

[qwerty223]

175 maybe, but saying Puma has short leg just too far.

Take out the sponson you will see...

[griffothefog]

Love the ideology but.......
That is the ugliest piece of **** Bell has ever designed in modern times. :{
No wonder the UH1 has reigned for so long.

[Variable Load]

I can't help but think of this when I see the 525 front end:

http://www.aviastar.org/helicopters_eng/sik_shadow.php

[noooby]

whoknowsidon't, there are quite a number of S-92's on civil SAR around the world, so there is a market. And now the 189 is also entering into that market.

[NickLappos]

The only way to judge the front end of a helicopter is to see how much external visibility it gives the crew. The 525's pilot seat shows scads of excellent visibility, with a wide field of view side, down and cross cockpit.

[whoknows idont]

noooby, are you talking about exclusive SAR helicopters or maybe regular offshore buses that are on call for SAR missions?

[noooby]

Both. CHC, Cougar, Bristow. They all operate 92's either as dedicated SAR or as offshore with SAR provisions.

Of course they could always incorporate the 139 soft field fix of Slump Pads! :ugh:

[CTR]

Nick, Hope you had your own small celebration when the 525 flew. Bell would not be flying the first Fly-by-Wire commercial helicopter without your vision and faith in the engineers at Bell to make it happen. You made a big impact in your short stint at Bell.

Have fun,

CTR

[The Sultan]

From Flight International:

During flights, the GE Aviation CT7-powered helicopter has been taken to speeds of up to 162kt (300km/h), an altitude of 1,200ft and bank angles of 35°.

Not bad after 20 fh for a self funded FBW aircraft. The speed is near Vne and while the altitude looks low it is because they are operating out of a base at 3700 ft. Since 6K DA is a standard cert alt this fits into the test plan.

CTR: The 525 comes from the BA-609 and Bell 429 design teams, both before Nick.

The Sultan

[domperry]

Mea culpa, it's actually an altitude of 12,000ft. Somehow a zero got lopped off that figure.

[The Sultan]

From FG

Second Bell 525 takes flight

24 DECEMBER, 2015 BY: JAMES DREW WASHINGTON DC
Bell Helicopter’s second 525 flight test vehicle has lifted off in Amarillo, Texas, after completing a series of ground checks.

Supporting the development of the first commercial fly-by-wire helicopter, FTV-2 joins its orange sibling (registration N525TA) that conducted the maiden flight of the super-medium type in July.

The new aircraft, tail number N525BK, sports a blue paint scheme, and is pictured in hover on 23 December.

Bell 525 FTV-2 took flight on 23 December

The Sultan

[SASless]

CTR, Nick's contribution to Bell is well regarded.

Is Sultan even known outside Bell?

[SansAnhedral]

525 is apparently exceeding 200 kt in flight testing, as announced by Matt Hasik, Bell's executive vice president for Commercial Business at Heli Expo this morning.

[evil7]

???

If it has been flown at 162kts already and Sultan remarks that has been "near" VNE - how can it be flown in eccess of 200kts??

or is 40+ kts off "near" to VNE??

[noooby]

Just because it can be flown at 200 knots, doesn't mean the Vne will be anywhere near that.

The 139 can fly well in excess of 167 knots, hell, it will climb at 100Pi and 167knots, but that is where the Vne is set. Partially due to bird strike limits on the plastic windshields.

Will be interesting to see where Bell set the Vne on the 525 after testing is completed.

[The Sultan]

Evil7

This is the link to the flight.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/airplanes/n525ta/#8ebf997

For this flight ground speed was very close to CAS.

If memory serves the target VNE was around 165 knots. For cert you have to demonstrate 1.11 VNE. Once the ship was flown the drag was found to be less than the most pessimistic drag analysis so the higher speeds are now being considered.

The Sultan

[chopper2004]

Hi guys here are my photos of Flight Test Vehicle #2 at Louisville , KY. earlier in the week,

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger031/IMG_7649_zps6kotndg5.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger031/IMG_7616_zpsjwfgmd3k.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger031/IMG_7613_zpshaaupf50.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger031/IMG_7592_zpscld49lz5.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger031/IMG_7600_zpsgm3lw7rn.jpg

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger031/IMG_7593_zpspeydkw99.jpg

cheers

[chopper2004]

3rd prototype flew (photo courtesy of Bell) today

cheers

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g209/longranger/longranger077/13062538_1310931615601478_455633312363557727_n_zpshvlqdydb.j pg

[NickLappos]

We commercial developers set Vne where it supports a cruise speed, not where things come to pieces at an engineering stress level. In fact, every limit is set that way - where the business plan is met, not where something is likely to break.
Why? Because we test to support safety and sales, not to make a nice research project.
That being said, anyone who knowingly violates a red line (thinking there is always plenty of margin) is in uncharted territory, and foolish in two ways: First, you endanger yourself and your pax and Second, you might be accruing damage so someone else down the line will suffer.

CTR, I have a lot of faith in the Bell 525 team, and in the basic design. Articulated head, canted tail rotor, FBW advanced controls, big spacious cabin, Garmin cockpit, massive pilot visibility, and a dozen other facets were decided while I was there, and I agree, it was a blast! I had always wanted a shark's teeth smile painted on the nose so it could bite its competition in the butt. I think it will make one heck of an impact on the market.
Nick

[zalt]

we test to support safety and sales
No comment.

[Outwest]

I think it will make one heck of an impact on the market.

If there ever is a market again......

[riff_raff]

Interestingly, this article says Bell claims they achieved a 200kt forward speed with their 525 testing. Pretty impressive for a conventional helo.

Third Bell 525 Joins Flight-test Fleet | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2016-04-27/third-bell-525-joins-flight-test-fleet)

[dangermouse]

EAS, TAS or IAS?

it doesn't say


DM

[212man]

Interestingly, this article says Bell claims they achieved a 200kt forward speed with their 525 testing. Pretty impressive for a conventional helo.

Third Bell 525 Joins Flight-test Fleet | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2016-04-27/third-bell-525-joins-flight-test-fleet)
It doesn't say 'level flight'. The EC155 was flown up to 210 kts and the head up to 240kts but in a dive. I've been up to 195 kts in the prototype.

Vne is far less about aerodynamics and more about component life as well as practicalities - no point having a limit that can only be achieved in a 3000 ft/min dive!

[SansAnhedral]

EAS, TAS or IAS?

it doesn't say

As mentioned earlier

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/aircraft/n525ta/#8ebf997

edit: looks like flight might be out of the databank now.

[Paul Cantrell]

I've kept my eyes open and haven't seen much info about the FBW system in the 525 other than it's triple redundant and a derivative of Bell's tilt rotor work.

Does anybody have any more information about it? I'm curious about what kind of software/computing redundancy is used (I did some work with Boeing and with the safety cert guy from the 777 and was impressed that they used 3 dissimilar processor chips to avoid computer architecture bugs causing issues among other strategies).

What kinds of strategies are used to avoid RF induced interference? (thinking of the UH60 issues flying near radio/tv broadcast towers).

Is it safe to assume that the hydraulic system is conventional, and only the command of the servos is FBW?

Maybe a pointer to any articles/white papers on the design of the FBW system?

Thanks!

[Ian Corrigible]

This paper from EASA's 8th Rotorcraft Symposium held in December 2014 provides some insight into the FBW system: Model 525 Relentless advanced fly-by-wire – The pilot’s safety advantage (http://aerossurance.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/7.1._Bothwell_Bell-Model-525-relentless-advanced-fly-by-wire-the-pilot-safety-advantage.pdf)

I/C

[voando]

Page 4 of Model 525:

Newman and Lambregt closing comment – “overall FBW and envelope protection have prevented accidents and saved lives. In the past 15 years, there have been 27 stall
accidents in commercial transport operations with 848 fatalities –
not one was a FBW airplane”

Errrm, AF447 ?

[riff_raff]

FAR 29.695 requires single fault tolerance capability for flight critical boosted control systems such as hydraulic actuators used for rotor blade pitch. Single fault tolerance would mean having two independent actuation systems capable of performing the same function, where in the event one experiences loss of function for any (credible) failure mode, the other will be capable of continuing to perform the function as required for safe flight. This means every half of a single fault tolerant system must be able to operate independent of the other half, from end to end.

Having functional redundancy in just part of a system is helpful, but does not usually meet full system functional fault tolerance requirements.

[The Sultan]

With fake outrage the editor of the Helihub website generated an open letter "shaming" Bell for promoting the 525 as an EC225 replacement (see below):

19 May, 16, Source: HeliHub.com
Respected aviation media outlet Aviation International News has run a story quoting Bell saying that their new 525 Relentless helicopter, currently under development, is a “Super Puma replacement”. Helihub.com has requested validation of the quote from Bell, but despite opening our email within one minute of sending it over four hours prior to us publishing this piece, the company has failed to respond. We cannot believe that Aviation International News would publish wording they cannot stand by, so we have to assume the quote is correct.

How can a manufacturer of the standing of Bell stoop so low as to malign a competitor aircraft at a time when there is a significant safety focus on the AS332/H225 following the accident near Bergen in Norway on 29th April?

Now that the latest EC225 info on the latest fatal crash points to a design deficiency and the 225 is looking at another extended grounding at best (despite Airbus's press releases saying nothing to see here all is fine just a mechanic screw up), Helihub should apologize to Bell and request Airbus to apologize to all maintainers. I know they won't because they would loose all that "advertising" (payoff) money.

The Sultan

[Never Fretter]

Truth is the 525 is maybe a 332L replacement. The Helihub point is more that the 525 should be marketed on its merits.

Airbus never said a mechanic screwed up as you put it. You are just showing your prejudices by that interpretation.

[helihub]

Never Fretter - yes, exactly my point. Thank you.

[birmingham]

Truth is the 525 is maybe a 332L replacement. The Helihub point is more that the 525 should be marketed on its merits.

Airbus never said a mechanic screwed up as you put it. You are just showing your prejudices by that interpretation.
Absolutely, if you follow the other threads here on that one you will see that there are seven potential scenarios, some inter-related. The suggestion that this whole thing was caused by the omission of a safety pin suffers from the a total lack of evidence to date but relies on other people's interpretations of a rather vague AH statement. In addition the chances of it being caused by a single event such as this seem very small at this stage (fatigue has been found in a gear stage and is being further investigated). Have a heart for the people who worked on this machine who are going through a very difficult time

[The Sultan]

Airbus aimed everyone at a loss of a support link and away from the transmission which led to people focusing on installation issues (i.e. the fault of the maintainer) so I stand by my statement. As to seeking marketing advantage from a competitor's real or perceived issue, Airbus is the master. So no tears here if they are on the receiving end.

The Sultan

Helihub: Still waiting for the retraction.

[Never Fretter]

Airbus aimed everyone at a loss of a support link and away from the transmission which led to people focusing on installation issues (i.e. the fault of the maintainer) so I stand by my statement. As to seeking marketing advantage from a competitor's real or perceived issue, Airbus is the master. So no tears here if they are on the receiving end.

The Sultan

Helihub: Still waiting for the retraction.

Sad to see one so bitter and twisted.

[megan]

Hiccup?

FAA Sets Special Certification Conditions for Bell 525 | Business Aviation News: Aviation International News (http://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/business-aviation/2016-06-21/faa-sets-special-certification-conditions-bell-525?eid=325861977&bid=1444690)

[Lonewolf_50]

Why would that be a hiccup, megan? The salient points of that article.

Therefore it is necessary to determine the structural factors of safety and operating margins such that the probability of structural failures due to the application of loads during FBW FCS malfunctions is not greater than that found with rotorcraft equipped with traditional flight control systems. To achieve this objective and to ensure an acceptable level of safety, it is necessary to define the failure conditions and their associated frequency of occurrence.” Seems a prudent approach.

With the FBW FCS system, fully operative strength requirements of Part 29 need not be investigated beyond limit conditions “when it can be shown that the rotorcraft has design features that will not allow it to exceed those limit conditions.” In evaluating failure conditions shown not to be extremely improbable, loads assume failures begin in 1g level flight and include pilot corrective actions. The special conditions also provide that special periodic inspections, daily checks and pre-flight inspections may be used in lieu of failure-detection and -indication systems, but “must be limited to components that are not readily detectable by normal detection and indication systems and where service history shows that inspections will provide an adequate level of safety.” Is it "service history" that you feel is the location of hiccup in this case?

[megan]

I just thought may be the FAA seeking special conditions for certification at this late stage of development may cause a delay. Nothing more, nothing less.

[CertGuy]

It does seem to be late in the program, but most recent TCs have a number of special conditions. I think at least the first special condition has been applied to all the Part 25 fly-by-wire airplanes. Not so sure about the other.
Certguy

[heli1]

So....is there a subtle link here to the AW609 crash report where the FBW AFCS overcompensated? Bell developed the software for that too.

[JohnDixson]

Lonewolf, is the underlying issue that Part 29 and the attendant Advisory Circular has failed to keep up with flight control technology?

[SansAnhedral]

the AW609 crash report where the FBW AFCS overcompensated

Thats what you gleaned from that report? :suspect:

[heli1]

Thats what you gleaned from that report? :suspect:

Merely shorthand for a detailed report!

[The Sultan]

Heli

Why bring the 609 into it? By the way the Bell software worked fine at higher speeds with the original tail.

The Sultan

[jeffg]

Lonewolf, is the underlying issue that Part 29 and the attendant Advisory Circular has failed to keep up with flight control technology?

nailed it! :ok:

[Kobus Dune]

With fake outrage the editor of the Helihub website generated an open letter "shaming" Bell for promoting the 525 as an EC225 replacement (see below):

19 May, 16, Source: HeliHub.com
Respected aviation media outlet Aviation International News has run a story quoting Bell saying that their new 525 Relentless helicopter, currently under development, is a “Super Puma replacement”. Helihub.com has requested validation of the quote from Bell, but despite opening our email within one minute of sending it over four hours prior to us publishing this piece, the company has failed to respond. We cannot believe that Aviation International News would publish wording they cannot stand by, so we have to assume the quote is correct.

How can a manufacturer of the standing of Bell stoop so low as to malign a competitor aircraft at a time when there is a significant safety focus on the AS332/H225 following the accident near Bergen in Norway on 29th April?
Now that the latest EC225 info on the latest fatal crash points to a design deficiency and the 225 is looking at another extended grounding at best (despite Airbus's press releases saying nothing to see here all is fine just a mechanic screw up), Helihub should apologize to Bell and request Airbus to apologize to all maintainers. I know they won't because they would loose all that "advertising" (payoff) money.



You are perfectly right, sultan. Especially since yesterday in Chambers Creek.

[chopper2004]

Just got heads up from Bell aa they are offering a multi mission Advanced Tactical Transport version, (images courtesy of Bell)

cheers
https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4403/36064667593_ef99d90882_h.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4419/36064670063_00b6cea08f_k.jpg

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4385/36064665333_c519e08445_k.jpg

[dangermouse]

Boy, that is one UGLY looking helicopter

DM

[Self loading bear]

Five a breast for military transports.
What would be seat width available for those pumped-up gym type special forces?

SLB

[Tickle]

I thought exactly the same thing. Looks like it'd be a squeeze, but seems to work:

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2012/03/28/article-0-125B8438000005DC-582_964x683.jpg

[Ian Corrigible]

Leathernecks deploying in a C-17, sans tactical vests. Those five-across seating pallets are 108 inches wide. For comparison, the 525's cabin width is 91 inches, so 16% narrower.

I/C

[CertGuy]

Sumo Wrestlers

[The Sultan]

You all seem to think this is aimed at fat US troops. I am sure five Gurkas {toughest fighters in the world} would fit nicely in a row..

[helicopterray]

How many 525s are the Gurkas buying?

[Self loading bear]

I believe Gurkha's have a higher operating ceiling without a Bell strapped to their backs.
Bell 12.000 Ft. (From a quick tour of the Bell spec)
Perhaps Vertical Freedom can tell more about the Gurkha's?

Cheers SLB

[malabo]

Fuzzy memory, but the internal cabin width on an S76 was 76 inches and we'd jam 4 across in the pre-Sumburgh days. Then the 139 came out with a 80 wide cabin and we flew 5 across. So 91 for the 525 should be plenty for 5 across in some applications, just like the 189 at a slightly roomier 94. Operators don't care, it is a contract/regulator restriction to max 4 across for offshore whether it is a 332, 92, 189 or 525. NS rig pigs are double the mass of a typical Macao gambler.

[minigundiplomat]

The 525 will be a great aircraft, and will no doubt have numerous military applications, but the published fit is fantasy.


Its fine if the troops are in clean fatigue, but they never are - why would you want a helicopter to take you somewhere with no personal equipment? most troops will be wearing body armour, chest rigs or assault vests, drop leg holsters, probably some kind on daysack or back mounted equipment and for more than 24 hours, they will have rucks/bergans - there is no floor area to place them.


And they need to pray there is no heavy weapons platoon......

[Lonewolf_50]

Unless the Army writes a spec for that kind of troop transport, I see only foreign sales as potential options when the 525 goes live/gets certified. The Army is already looking into two other platforms for the tactical transport: Valor and Defiant.

[Cyclic Hotline]

Rather interesting bit of information on not bidding the USAF UH-1N replacement contract, that appears without any formal announcement that I've seen. The 525 would have appeared to be a serious contender for this mission.

Maybe they think it'll go through multiple bids and they'll still be in with a chance later? Bell Helicopter Declines to Compete for Huey Replacement Program (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2017/9/20/bell-helicopter-declines-to-compete-for-huey-replacement-program)

[Self loading bear]

Maybe they think it'll go through multiple bids and they'll still be in with a chance later? Bell Helicopter Declines to Compete for Huey Replacement Program (http://www.nationaldefensemagazine.org/articles/2017/9/20/bell-helicopter-declines-to-compete-for-huey-replacement-program)


The contract award is expected at the end of May 2018 with deliveries beginning in 2019, industry sources have said.

Multiple bid rounds to be completed in May 2018 and delivery in 2019?

I don't think that is feasible.
I think the 525 is simply not ready in time.

Cheers SLB

[The Sultan]

https://www.ntsb.gov/investigations/AccidentReports/Reports/ASR1801.pdf

[Encyclo]

Hi Sultan,

Here is the correct link for the report:

NTSB Bell 525 Accident Report (https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20160706X42741&AKey=1&RType=Summary&IType=FA)

Very sad...

[The Sultan]

Encyclo

Thanks.

[GKaplan]

Page 8: 323 and 756 total flight hours?????

[whoknows idont]

I also find the reported TT of the flight crew surprising, to put it midly. As well as a couple other details of the report.
CVFDR installed but not operational? No cockpit cameras? OEI training mode safeguard completely eliminated?

That is certainly not how I would have imagined testing of these regimes on such a complex helicopter would have gone down nowadays at one of the major players in the industry.

The data in the report seems unbelievably undetermined to me, considering these test flights should be monitored way more closely than any other type flight.
The 525 with only 2 SOB sure can carry a ****load of FTE, why not use that to the max when going simulated OEI at 185kt?
:confused:

[finalchecksplease]

I think these helicopter hours could be correct theoretically if they got ATPL H add on from an ATPL A, but would be amazed that Bell would employ test pilots with so little hours in helicopters.
Maybe it is just their civilian experience, not their previous military time, not sure how the NTSB list the experience of pilots.

[The Sultan]

From the report:

The pilot held a letter of authorization (LOA) from the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) dated December 2, 2015, authorizing him to act as pilot-in-command (PIC) of the Bell experimental helicopter designated model 525. He completed crew resource management (CRM) training on January 12, 2015. The pilot graduated from the United States Naval Test Pilot School (USNTPS) in 2010. He then worked on numerous flight test projects involving the Bell AH-1W (SuperCobra, a twin-engine attack helicopter) and UH-1Y (Venom/Super Huey, a twin-engine utility helicopter). On September 23, 2013, he was hired by the Bell Helicopter flight test department as a pilot for the Bell 525 program.

The copilot held an LOA from the FAA dated December 2, 2015, authorizing him to act as PIC of the Bell experimental helicopter designated model 525. He completed CRM training on January 12, 2015. The copilot completed US Navy flight training in 2000 and graduated from the USNTPS in 2006. He then worked on numerous AH-1W and UH-1Y test programs. On August 2, 2010, he was hired by the Bell Helicopter flight test department as a pilot for the Bell 525 program.

[LRP]

I think these helicopter hours could be correct theoretically if they got ATPL H add on from an ATPL A, but would be amazed that Bell would employ test pilots with so little hours in helicopters.
Maybe it is just their civilian experience, not their previous military time, not sure how the NTSB list the experience of pilots.


The NTSB just puts down whatever you put down on the form (6120). Obviously someone other than the pilots filled it out and probably entered what information they had access to.

[Gregg]

Here is the link to the accident docket at NTSB. See attachment 10 for details on pilots.

https://dms.ntsb.gov/pubdms/search/hitlist.cfm?docketID=60663

[Matari]

Spotted the Bell 525 in Canada (Scroll to 10:52 to catch a glimpse):
Bell 525 doing cold weather testing .

[AnFI]

I read thisDCA16FA199, Bell 525, N525TA but i didnt' see anything about hydraulics saturation
maybe i missed it somewhere
is the hydraulics in this machine able to deliver pressure with those stoke lengths at that frequency?
seems like a big job for a hyraulic pump

[Matari]

Some more footage of the 525, still testing up in Yellowknife. Plus a few words from the Chief Pilot about his favorite pubs in the Northwest Territories. Starts around 4:00...

525 in Yellowknife

[chopper2004]

The German Bundespolizei are looking to modernise their air support fleet, probably starting with replacing their Airbus Helicopters H155 as they are 2 decades old. One option according to this article is non other than the 525.

https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/german-federal-police-plans-helicopter-fleet-renewal-460725/

Bell promoted parapublic missions for The Relentless when it came out, remember the various SAR mock ups at Heli Expo or Farnborough over the years?

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/400x289/b760d560_c898_4cea_9a21_58a0e4de156b_5d8f7e142cd492bbabff695 9b654023df420b7e7.jpeg

Any thoughts?

cheers

[HeliHenri]

We are at the end of the year and still no news from Bell about the certification.

[The Sultan]

Heli

You can thank Boeing and it’s Max fiasco for cert delays.

[PANews]

Bell appear to be saying that the FAA have now increased scrutiny on self certification And [apparently] finding grounds for criticism in the Bell system.

Which begs the question..... are there Max type technical errors in the product line?

Kill 250 at a time in a jetliner and there is rightly a furore but the deaths of a few here and there cause less concern [until something large and Airbus drops into the North Sea]

The regime of self certification may be behind the unchecked ‘errors of judgement’ that led to the creation of the 427 that did not meet JAR requirements [fuel Tanks in the cabin]. Unlike the MD900 that had similar non-compliance issues the answer was not modification, they had to go the whole way with a new 429.

[HeliHenri]

The partial government shutdown in January had Indeed an impact of certification process of all aircrafts but it's over for months now.
Several fixed wings new aircrafts have been certified this year by the FAA and none manufacturer has use the 737 Max excuse to explain delays in their certification process.

[The Sultan]

Heli,

How many are fly by wire rotorcraft being certified in the FAA Southwest Region?

[HeliHenri]

The Sultan,
The certification process of the first commercial helicopter with fly-by-wire flight controls can only be very difficult and there is no shame to get delays to achieve it but is it the fault of Boeing ?

[EvaDestruction]

Bell appear to be saying that the FAA have now increased scrutiny on self certification And [apparently] finding grounds for criticism in the Bell system.

Which begs the question..... are there Max type technical errors in the product line?

Kill 250 at a time in a jetliner and there is rightly a furore but the deaths of a few here and there cause less concern [until something large and Airbus drops into the North Sea]

The regime of self certification may be behind the unchecked ‘errors of judgement’ that led to the creation of the 427 that did not meet JAR requirements [fuel Tanks in the cabin]. Unlike the MD900 that had similar non-compliance issues the answer was not modification, they had to go the whole way with a new 429.

I doubt Bell is cheating in this certification effort.

Boeing WAS cheating with the MAX certification. The professional approach should have been an entire new type certificate for the MAX, not an add on to the original 737 type. The professional approach would have cost too much money and Boeing would have lost ground to Airbus. They are really going to lose ground now.

Best of luck to Bell.

[SansAnhedral]

.
The Sultan,
The certification process of the first commercial helicopter with fly-by-wire flight controls can only be very difficult and there is no shame to get delays to achieve it but is it the fault of Boeing ?
.

That certainly seems to be the implication according to articles like this

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2019/12/16/bell-525-relentless-certification-737-max.html

[roscoe1]

Let's put any blame where it is due. Yes, Boeing is at fault but they share the blame for the Max crashes with the FAA. Perhaps right down the middle would be putting it fairly. The FAA has always been a reactive response organization. It's time to move into the 21st century and become proactive with regard to technology that they obviously didn't know enough about. If we are going to allow big business to self certify, or at least certify the data used for approval, then we need a much more powerful watchdog to rein in companies that are more concerned about their shareholders than the public good. For Pete's sake, the FAA embeds personnel at Boeing and other major manufacturers. What the heck were they doing from 8 to 5? Could Boeing employees just walk in an talk to them without repercussions?

Given the history of the 525 and the complexity of fly by wire systems with their non-adaptive algorithms for responses to unusual flight parameters, the " this looks like it'll work , were running up againt our budget" line of reasoning just isn't good enough. For an industry that touts safety, it's still all about the money. Isn't this a lesson learned from before the space shuttle Challenger disaster but sadly illustrated by that event? A design weak spot, warnings from engineers, incomplete burn throughs of the o rings on previous flights, yet it still came to happen. I have to admit I'm a bit of a Luddite. I also believe it to be true that just because you can do something doesn't imply that you should. I'm not even sure what the real benefits of computer controlled FBW are. I'm sure someone can educate me as to why it is so valuable on the list of things that may make aircraft better in some way.

[HeliHenri]

That certainly seems to be the implication according to articles like this

https://www.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/2019/12/16/bell-525-relentless-certification-737-max.html

Have you read the article you mentione SansAnhedral ? "When asked if the increased level of focus from the FAA has slowed down the aircraft's certification timeline, O'Neil said that it is difficult to say."

[EvaDestruction]

To keep things in perspective, the practice of in-house DARs and others has worked fine for many long decades. Boeing and most other manufacturers have been up front and honest, and the FAA keeps a close eye and responds accordingly. It has been a practical system for many years. I'm just guessing that Bell has a similar system in place.

In this case Boeing cheated and the FAA failed to catch it. IMO the solution is to prosecute the individuals who cheated, and hopefully it won't happen again.

A larger FAA is not necessarily the answer.

[roscoe1]

To keep things in perspective, the practice of in-house DARs and others has worked fine for many long decades. Boeing and most other manufacturers have been up front and honest, and the FAA keeps a close eye and responds accordingly. It has been a practical system for many years. I'm just guessing that Bell has a similar system in place.

In this case Boeing cheated and the FAA failed to catch it. IMO the solution is to prosecute the individuals who cheated, and hopefully it won't happen again.

A larger FAA is not necessarily the answer.

Not larger, just more efficient and smarter. It is the FAA's mission statement that shows they missed this boat, despite Boeing not being forthright. I suggest you read this 2015 NTSB audit report about the FAA ODA program before you give them a pass. The FAA often ignores NTSB recommendations; I wonder how many of them in this report were complied with. https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.oig.dot.gov/sites/default/files/FAA%2520Oversight%2520of%2520ODA%2520Final%2520Report%255E10-15-15.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiB_MXB9b3mAhVEuZ4KHZ1HBQMQFjAKegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw3H2AYrgc8cbwz2SqaT5nWI&cshid=1576628168420
Mission

https://www.faa.gov/templates/4/assets/img/share_18x18.png (https://www.faa.gov/news/stay_connected/)
https://www.faa.gov/templates/4/assets/img/chalkwork/print_custom_18x18.png (https://www.faa.gov/about/mission/#)

Our MissionOur continuing mission is to provide the safest, most efficient aerospace system in the world.Our VisionWe strive to reach the next level of safety and efficiency and to demonstrate global leadership in how we safely integrate new users and technologies into our aviation system. We are accountable to the American public and our aviation stakeholders.Our Values

Safety is our passion. We work so all air and space travelers arrive safely at their destinations.
Excellence is our promise. We seek results that embody professionalism, transparency and accountability.
Integrity is our touchstone. We perform our duties honestly, with moral soundness, and with the highest level of ethics.
People are our strength. Our success depends on the respect, diversity, collaboration, and commitment of our workforce.
Innovation is our signature. We foster creativity and vision to provide solutions beyond today's boundaries.

[pitchlink1]

Surprisingly quiet from Bell at HeliExpo 2020 on certification of the 525. Does anyone know anything on when they expect to get this aircraft certified? FAA? EASA? And with de-ice?

[LTP90]

Surprisingly quiet from Bell at HeliExpo 2020 on certification of the 525. Does anyone know anything on when they expect to get this aircraft certified? FAA? EASA? And with de-ice?
They wouldnt offer up a date. I was told that they kept setting dates that kept slipping(for whatever reasons you want to use) and it was easier PR wise to not give a date. I was assured they are steaming full speed ahead towards certification, and I have no reason to not believe them.

[SASless]

Basic problem is the FAA lags behind the Industry in Fly By Wire Technology issues beginning with a lack of staff that are fully competent in the technology thus Industry. has to educate the FAA while moving towards certification.

Some at the FAA are reluctant to acknowledge that I am told thus making for some problems in the pace of progress.

I know one Manufacturer included that in their calculations and did not go forward with FBW in one of their new design aircraft.

[pitchlink1]

Basic problem is the FAA lags behind the Industry in Fly By Wire Technology issues beginning with a lack of staff that are fully competent in the technology thus Industry. has to educate the FAA while moving towards certification.

Some at the FAA are reluctant to acknowledge that I am told thus making for some problems in the pace of progress.

I know one Manufacturer included that in their calculations and did not go forward with FBW in one of their new design aircraft.

..being the H160 I assume? If so, even with the experience from partnering on the military FBW project NH90 they did not take the risk. Sounds like a good call by Airbus Helicopters.

FlightGlobal and other sources in last month indicated leasing company Milestone is about to walk away from a tentative 20 aircraft order for the 525 due to delays and downturn in oil.

[chopper2004]

Here are my photos of N525TY at the show on static at the Bell booth and on departure on the Friday.

cheers


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/c02780b9_fb50_48ad_ac9d_168b7a642068_c38fffea6ef7db317664f7f fc6bdc04537acca7b.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/ab749fbc_7f63_4322_8140_31862d6b12c2_17b046c34433c00bd6c9f88 bb3dbd52e7d0d3cde.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/ab8a8465_c30b_4aca_b9f6_327e12d5c995_5d1d3e41a254c327102652f 4b0ad56d87e4fa2b1.jpeg
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/946e93e1_9538_4d8e_b461_b0b77fe20b16_23397f2829bc0f6701a6a6c e0de9dd7f41e4c235.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/2e173d1f_4c47_4253_b910_9cbdd1218994_dde830fb3bd23ed784b19b0 4861cb4c2adc8b1bc.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/a884b72f_5b59_4ee6_9e09_171e7041e6b2_3fc6c304303080b415ce69d 61333230d0478f3c6.jpeg
https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/01e0a11c_55a3_4266_9d7f_98e4c3a23612_c1f8fc35950d3886af52813 cc0075828898003c8.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/64eb0c1a_a225_46d5_b6e6_88cdeef82135_12f5846c5e582c54b5c775e 688046c1e7d091940.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/7b2ad654_caa9_4d18_93e5_b65f4e0a23f0_57bdbdd8e5d63e6e4a9cd2b 353c703a31a6c2884.jpeg
https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/720x960/e9f66cd7_7bf8_467f_ae54_2bc746f21c09_afcf8166a00c69f55619b7e 76ba116c4d2b09183.jpeg
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/072abf50_638d_4bf4_9e4d_e3c41eba08f4_369f5d7bbee777dc5345e40 c1231b67b73e9cee1.jpeg
https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/4c19043f_6ff5_4e16_a6ec_d51766839110_44d48f787d704db0d3935bf c4576841c5e1b6693.jpeg
https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/40f5742c_28c1_47be_9990_b3e5ab5dffd6_89cedf1a07dc4b4773d6161 aed1aed0883dc25d8.jpeg
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/48926187_ad5c_4cca_8dfb_e511c8ec9fe8_0531c494c3bc1a1df55b308 99c8dc29a0ee2dafb.jpeg
https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x640/30a9b519_f3ee_467b_b5be_dfe31de99cd0_93beb8efe0e2cec5a3afced f812a4e02e7ee37b1.jpeg

[pitchlink1]

Nice pictures, but those seats in the back for sure has no recline? The "Pull After Emergency Landing to Fold Backrest" ribbon on the seat - does that indicate you would need to fold the backrest on the next row to get out from the seats in the back?

[chopper2004]

Nice pictures, but those seats in the back for sure has no recline? The "Pull After Emergency Landing to Fold Backrest" ribbon on the seat - does that indicate you would need to fold the backrest on the next row to get out from the seats in the back?

it’s only for show purposes and experimental stage, is not the final final.

Cheers

[Watson1963]

Two 525 videos from Bell today ...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tn9fpgblUtU

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wO6nGXOM3o

[FC80]

Decent video by Bell, low corporate BS and plenty info. Not convinced it’s going to be particularly spacious for our rig-working compatriots though, I suspect the 92 will retain that title. Doubt the bean counters care much about pax comfort though.

Triple redundant flight control actuators and eliminating the high speed epicyclic module would appear to be impressive safety enhancements.

[PhlyingGuy]

Decent video by Bell, low corporate BS and plenty info. Not convinced it’s going to be particularly spacious for our rig-working compatriots though, I suspect the 92 will retain that title. Doubt the bean counters care much about pax comfort though.

Triple redundant flight control actuators and eliminating the high speed epicyclic module would appear to be impressive safety enhancements.

They talk about the spacing at around 5:30 in the video... 20" seats with a pretty big dude in it. I do know some offshore cajuns and nords bigger than that though! Always funny to see them squeeze into smaller aircraft.

[industry insider]

I hope survival suited "Doug" likes playing footsie with his fellow workers.

[tu154]

Lots to like. However not sure about the pax arrangement. Getting in and out with the front door side pax seat occupied could be interesting. Also hard to see how a cabin/cockpit barrier might be incorporated as per all of the current north sea fleets.

[rotor-rooter]

Flight International is reporting that an unidentified O&G operator is commencing operations with the 525 in 2022. Anyone with any additional information?

[wrench1]

The original launch customer was to be the yellow and black variety......

[212man]

Reported last year that launch customer would be Wintershall: https://helihub.com/2020/01/29/bell-and-wintershall-dea-set-sights-for-innovative-north-sea-operations/
Doesn't give any clues who the operator will be

[gmrwiz]

By when is certification foreseen?

[chopper2004]

Reported last year that launch customer would be Wintershall: https://helihub.com/2020/01/29/bell-and-wintershall-dea-set-sights-for-innovative-north-sea-operations/
Doesn't give any clues who the operator will be

Wonder if it could be Babcock? Guess we wait till next year

cheers

[industry insider]

Wonder if it could be Babcock? Guess we wait till next year

I doubt it now that CHC has purchased Babcock Offshore.

[domperry76]

By when is certification foreseen?

Bell says it's on track to submit all the certification paperwork by mid-year, leading to FAA certification at some point later this year; EASA certification follows 6-9 months later.
It will be interesting if PHI is the launch customer (I'm assuming it's a US operator simply based on the certification timelines) given they are also adding the H160 in the same timeframe.

[gmrwiz]

Many thanks domperry76

[Apate]

Wonder if it could be Babcock? Guess we wait till next year

cheers
That is such a strange thing to suggest. Sure this is a rumour network, but any rumour should come with a tiny snippet of possibility. This has zero chance of being true :confused:

[nowherespecial]

Surely if it’s Wintershall DEA then it has to be one of CHC or BRS, or anyone else with a decent foothold in Norway.

[Copter Appreciator00]

Poor Doug steps into the cabin at 5:45. and has to sit through the whole demonstration, head-and-eyes forward... he might still be in the bird.
I was wondering, the Super-Medium market has been around for some time now, with the Agusta/Bell-13... sorry, Agusta/Westland 139 , AW189, S-92, and H175 filling most of the long-offshore market.
For the onshore, and near-offshore, we see the AW139, AW169, EC145, H160, H155, and legacy S-76, AS365, and Bell 412s in the mix.
What will convince operators to adopt/switch to the Bell 525 (which is say, 6-8 years late to the category party) and not to say, replace a high-time AW189 with a new AW189?

[rotorrookie]

It's been a complete radio silence from Bell about how the 525 project is going, nothing.

[HeliHenri]

The news is few days old :
Bell targets 525 certification in 2023.
.

[Lonewolf_50]

The news is few days old :
Bell targets 525 certification in 2023.
.
That gives them 10 months to get it done.
We'll see.

[HeliHenri]

https://verticalmag.com/news/bell-targets-525-relentless-certification-in-2023/

"Bell is in the final throes of the certification program for the 525 Relentless and anticipates certification of the super-medium, twin-engine helicopter by year-end, company executives said during a recent media day in Fort Worth, Texas."
.

[HeliHenri]

Bell 525 certified this year ?!

Bell aiming to wrap up 525 certification flight tests in first half of 2024 - Vertical Mag (https://verticalmag.com/news/bell-wrap-525-flight-tests-certification-2024/)

"The first production aircraft is set to roll of the manufacturing line in Amarillo, Texas, later this year"
"In terms of naming customers or a delivery schedule, the company is providing few details at this point"
..

[Sir Korsky]

This aircraft will quickly become a pilot's favorite with the G5000. Unquestionably the best avionics suite I've ever experienced. Beautiful Garmin intuitive logic. If you can work an iphone you'll have no issues with this ride ! Good luck to Bell with this fine machine !