Question about Epaulettes/Uniforms

[Isaac2112]

Hi all, I am reposting this in the proper forum...I accidentally put this in a different forum.

I just want to get some advice from fellow GA prof pilots. I fly a Cessna 310Q for hire about 4 times a month to major international airports on the west coast. I usually carry 3 or 4 pax. I am single pilot (duh....) and not 135 (although I do have some experience 135).

Anyways, I never wear a uniform/epaulettes, but I occasionally see guys getting out of 182s, PA28s and PA44s all spiffied up. Could I wear epaulettes/uniform (not full regalia...) ? The passengers probably would feel a little more at ease. IN addition, ramp staff and security at these places treat me like shiz sometimes. But, they treat these other guys (in little 172s and stuff) better. I guess I am asking...is it pretentious of me to wear some bars...if not, how many bars ought I wear? Like 3?

Anyways, thanks guys.
About me: CPL MEL/SEL 150hrs Multi 400TT. Looking to move up....like everyone.

[goldeneaglepilot]

If you want to portray a professional image then in my opinion you need to dress the part.

However if it’s just a statement of “look at me I’m a pilot” then that’s self feeding of one’s ego. A private flight, flying your mates - no..

In the circumstances you describe it would seem that a uniform would add to a client’s perception of quality and value of the service. Do you see an Airline’s pilot dressed in Jeans and T-Shirt? What would you think if he/she did?

I’m surprised that you need to ask the question...

[Flaymy]

I would suggest no jacket. Just a practicality, in the seats of small twins they are neither comfortable nor smart.

[Pace]

Also remember that in many parts of the world a uniform is highly regarded and a must have unless you want to increase your airport transit time fivefold.
Try parts of Africa or the Arab countries ;)

On a Citation Ferry from India to The UK I had an Arab Co who insisted on wearing a full uniform with Admiral Bars and a cap for a night out in his homeland. I gave in and allowed him the four bars on the ground :E

As stated if you are a professional pilot then the image you give to the pax is all important. Black hair? dye in a bit of grey at the temples ;) and give that all knowing, mature look! RayBans to hide the terror in your eyes! Dark pants for obvious reasons :E Than you are all set to go!!!!

Pace

[Flaymy]

As for number of bars, personal choice. You are Captain, you have earned four and no-one would deny that. Single-crew charter is a tough job. If you think that looks pretentious there is nothing wrong with wearing three. Two would be putting yourself down. Times I have flown single-crew I wore whichever I found first.

Since you have the choice, get a girl to advise you on gold or silver. They'll know what suits you better. Preferably one you want to sleep with, as they love that sort of stuff ;)

[mutt]

I fly a Cessna 310Q for hire about 4 times a month combined with and not 135

I'm curious, what regulations are you flying under? 91,121,125,129??????

Mutt

[wingz5000]

I'm Aussie flying Ag in Asia, obviously I don't bar up on the job, but from time to time I do international ferries of Ag Planes. Then I do bar-up with Black pants and white shirt. And yes the full 4 bars. Its expected, opens doors, and they call me "Captain" !!

[KKoran]

Sounds like a '134.5' operation.

[what next]

Hello!

Could I wear epaulettes/uniform (not full regalia...) ?

You are a lucky man who lives in a free country, so you are free to wear whatever you like! I have flown commercially on piston twins for more than ten years and have never worn a uniform or stripes. Always thought it was inappropriate. And no tie either. Dark pants, white shirt and a blazer when meeting the passengers in the terminal.

Now they make me wear a „real“ uniform with stripes, tie, name-tag, wings and crew-badge (no hat, luckily...). Coparing the workload and the difficulty of the job, it should be the other way round. All I do now is checking that the copilot presses the buttons of the autopilot in the right order. One does not need to wear stripes to do that... Whereas operating an ageing piston-twin single-handed and looking after everything else alone really makes you earn your stripes. So if you feel at ease wearing them, wear them with pride. All four of them. Flying is never going to get as demanding for you again as it is now.

Happy landings,
max

[Isaac2112]

About the operation itself. To clarify. I do not own the airplane. I do not hold myself as a "package operator" capable of providing an aircraft, pilot services, etc on demand. So no, it is not a 134.5 Everything is part 91. Period. The owner of the airplane happens to also be the President of a Company, and therefore uses the plane to fly himself and/or employees to and from meetings. Definitely not 135. Clearly Part 91 stuff.
For example: if a man owns a G5 and wants to fly himself or some of his buddies somewhere on the company (offshore account in bahamas :oh:) he does not need a Comm Operator License.

Anyways, now you guys know. I fly a retrofitted T-41 (basically a 172) for photo flights also, and that is definitely not 135...

I figured I should clarify. Richard Nixon "I am not a crook" lol.

[Pace]

I fly a Cessna 310Q for hire about 4 times a month to major international airports on the west coast.

Isaac

I am sure it was this bit which looked odd? It reads like the aircraft is for HIRE while I am sure you meant YOU are for Hire while the aircraft is free to your employers employees on the course of his business?

Pace

[mad_jock]

I can't see a problem you wearing a uniform of some form.

Number of bars is up to you, don't see a problem with four.

As Pace says the uniform does open doors and cut down grief most of the time. If not for anything else that you look as if you should be doing what you do.

And I also think its fair game for FO's to wear 4 bars if its going to get us an advantage. Any country where the FO can speak the local lingo and I can't its swapsie time. This has led to some very nice pizzas delivered to the aircraft in France, fuel bowsers turning up out of sequence etc.

What you might get though is the feds coming and asking questions about what you are doing just as folk on here have.

Ask the bloke thats hiring you what he wants, he might not like the idea or he may love it. You won't know until you ask and it will bypass the "what the hell are you wearing" conversation.

[flynowpaylater]

Isaac

I am sure it was this bit which looked odd? It reads like the aircraft is for HIRE while I am sure you meant YOU are for Hire while the aircraft is free to your employers employees on the course of his business?

Pace


:D Pace - That's exactly my point (other thread).

If it has 4 legs and barks, it's probably a dog!!

[Tinstaafl]

I fly owners & their guests in piston & turboprops in the US now. None of the regalia, just chinos/slacks & a polo shirt. Everything neatly ironed, of course. I've seen similar on many corporate/business aircraft including jets. I've also seen similar but with standard business shirts, and I've seen uniforms. In previous 135/charter/airline jobs it was the whole uniform thing with bars. One of the reasons I chose non-uniform like attire for our little business is to avoid giving the impression that the flights are under Part 135 (they're not).

As long as what you wear is neat and appropriate to the situation, ie not usually jeans & T-shirt stuff, most pax under Part 91 ops won't think twice about it. Your demeanor & how professionally you operate the flight will count more. It doesn't matter how flash the clothing, if your operation comes across as disorganised or tardy, and with things forgotten or not done, then your pax won't be happy.

[ksjc]

You say you don't get the service you would like at the big airport FBOs. Do you give the boys a tip? Corporate jet guys know this helps tremendously. A 310 won't require as much attention as a Global or as much of a tip. Might help you out. I don't think the lack of attention has anything to do with what you are/are not wearing.

Regarding the uniform. I've been flying corporate worldwide for 25 years and have never worn the quasi-military pilot uniform. Dressed in business attire or golf shirts my entire career and find the crew ID badge is the only critical item. Outside N. America we always use a handling agency with escort through airports and he's the guy I give the $100 to...really helps to grease the skids.

Having said this I do notice that while my attire is the norm in the US it's out of the norm in Europe and elsewhere. I attribute this to culture more than anything else. I'm a Californian and I understand folks from other parts of the world take themselves and what they wear much more seriously.

I'm on the Global Express and turn up at some odd-ball places in the world at times. No one has ever asked me about a pilot uniform.

My theory is the guys who insist a uniform helps them are also the guys who actually enjoy wearing them. Just my experience though.

[WestWind1950]

I still can't get over meeting a balloon pilot in white shirt with 4 stripes.....

Actually, you should wear what your boss/passengers want you to wear. If the airplane owner wants a uniform with stripes, so be it. If he doesn't mind you wearing jeans, fine... it's actually HIS call, just like it's the airlines or other companies who decide what their crews should wear.

As a private pilot I have worn an overall with sew-on emblems, but NEVER stripes!

[what next]

Having said this I do notice that while my attire is the norm in the US it's out of the norm in Europe and elsewhere.

And vice-versa, this "greasing" of yours may be the norm in the US, but certainly not in central and northern Europe! If at all, then the owner or passengers will tip the handling agent, but we pilots? From our salary? Sometimes, we will offer the leftovers of our catering or a bottle of beer to a refueller, but that's it. And we are not used to getting tips ourselves. Not from corporate passagers anyway.
But here (central and northern Europe again), too, it is the crew ID rather than the uniform that opens doors.

[Isaac2112]

<P>Ok. Thanks guys. PACE--yea, I probably could have worded that differently, I can see how it arouses...questions. <IMG class=inlineimg border=0 alt=0 src="http://www.pprune.org/forums/images/smilies2/eusa_wall.gif" smilieid="18">&nbsp;I am sure some of the people from the FAA are great guys<IMG class=inlineimg border=0 alt=0 src="http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif" smilieid="9">&nbsp;but I never hope to have to meet any of em. </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>As for Uniform-whoever mentioned Golf shirt and slacks=genius. I was living in this absolute world of either casual or formal. This is a happy in-between. I think I will talk to the boss-man. I guess that is easier than just trying to read his mind. </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>As for what color epaulettes i should use Flaymy: Talked to the girlfriend. She is all about the gold ones...I guess it matches my skin tone and hair color--and the airplane has a vintage look (with gold trim) and I guess gold=vintage. Who knew right? </P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>
<P>Anywhos thanks guys. Glad to be a part of the forum. You all seem like stand up fellas <IMG class=inlineimg border=0 alt=0 src="http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif" smilieid="23"></P>

[Pace]

KSJC

It is a cultural thing. Some now have designer made suits with bars embroidered into the material so that they look more business like than the tradition white shirt and dark pants.

In other parts of the world a uniform is regarded as status and commands respect so really its different horses for different courses.

Position flights for maintenance in the jet we purely wear jeans and casual clothes but carrying Pax traditional pilot wear.

I also had a female co pilot who is a stunner and well endowed up top. She had a habit of wearing pilot shirts a size too small so that every time we hit turbulence the shirt had a habit of popping open but I reckon that was on purpose to ruin my instrument scan :E

Pace

[NuName]

I fly all over the world and your attire is a rarity, I do see it but not very often. I fly in jeans when the boss or his guests are not on board, another rarity. He expects me to represent him as his captain, reasonable I suppose, that's what he pays me for. I also sometimes have government people on board, jeans or even smart casual would not be fitting. Even in the USA most crew's in the FBO's wear a uniform, albeit a lot of them with the leather bomber jacket fashion. The guy's on AOC work would not have a choice and the rest of us conform to convention or comon sense. I have never, never ever, met a pilot that wears a uniform that his employers do not wish him to wear, let alone wear a uniform contrary to the empoyers wishes because he thinks it looks cool.

[ksjc]

NuName and others...

Totally agree that one does not want to wear attire the boss is opposed of. My boss could care less what we wear, just that we get the job done safely and efficiently. I have been in the part 91 owner world for many years but flew 135 jet charter prior and even then wore business attire....no uniform. No problem.

In the US the majority of uniformed guys you see are employed by NetJets and the like. The pilot uniform is a must in this environment for standardized look and to satisfy the variety of pax they service.

Again, I have seen no advantage to wearing a formal uniform in my travels but I don't work in an environment where I am left on my own to navigate my way in and out of foreign airport terminals...always with an escort. This admittadly is a big advantage.

[mutt]

We were full uniforms complete with hats and even an overcoat, company supplied and mandated. . But when the aircraft is empty, we can change, but the expectation is that the uniform will be back on at the destination.

Ksjc, as for tips, do you have a float? I have noticed that my colleagues are bad tippers. . .

Mutt

[ksjc]

Mutt.

My employer requires us to spend our own money on trips and we are reimbursed including tips spent. There is even a "Line Service Tips" category on the expense report. It's to be expected in the US.

At least $40 on arrival and occasionally $100 if we need special attention or "hangar is full"....sometimes the hangar is not so full. On the GLEX everything costs more....including tipping.

Also, this helps us on return visits as the guys remember.

[RainingLogic]

KJC - Nice try.

Unless your an occasional contract pilot, your not covering your own expenses and waiting weeks for reimbursement. The fact that a biz owner would trust his pilots with his families life and a $25 million dollar plane doesn't jive with him not trusting you with the hotel bill, taxis and meals.

That said, it also requires the pilots to be carrying serious dedicated plastic for just aviation trips, requiring a credit line most pilots don't have, and an accounting system most pilots aren't smart and disciplined enough to maintain.

So I call bull****, but if by some stretch you are flying for an outfit that makes you cover your expenses, they must have been burned by pilots before, which talks of their hiring practices...which not surprisingly jives perfectly with the pay to fly, my buddy got me a job type of mentality so rife in this forum.

Just an observation.

[ksjc]

RainingLogic-

Easy there Chief. Why so hostile?

Having the crew pay their own expenses and then get reimbursed is not uncommon in the industry, at least in the US. Not sure how long you have been around this biz but if you recall TAG Aviation (US) was an industry leader. I worked for TAG for many years and this is how they managed crew expenses.

Although I fly for one individual I am "employed" by a large aircraft management company who processes my expense reports along with 100's of others every week. I don't hear many complaints about the system.

Yes, I do have a dedicated credit card with a high limit but this is a requirement for employment where I work. Your remark about questionable hiring practices doesn't fly as a credit check is done for all applicants and if one can't qualify for high limit credit one is not going to get the job. Good credit is often associated with good character.

Sometimes my monthly cc bill exceeds $5K and my expense reports match. What's so hard about managing that?

[mutt]

We on the other hand dont spent 1 cent of our own money, nor carry a company credit card. Everything is arranged for us, right down to the limo to take us from New York to recurrent training ......

Hence the reason my colleagues aren't the greatest tippers!

Different stokes for different folks.

Mutt

[ksjc]

Mutt.

That's nice but how do you rent a car? .... or pay for a taxi or bus, or buy a meal where YOU want to eat, or get a Coke from the food simulator, or buy a coffee, or get your shoes shined, etc?

I would think any sort of travel, for work or otherwise, requires a credit card and some amount of cash to get through the day?

I do see that with your structure why tipping can be a burden for you and your colleagues.

[cldrvr]

Same here Mutt. Company credit card, company cash. Never in 2 decades have I had to dip in my own pocket for expenses for any outfit I have ever flown for. Just about everything at destination is prebooked, even use the company cash to tip the barstaff.

Seems to me KSJC is either not very trustworthy, hence the steps his employer has taken, or he is taking the mickey here as he is a not very trustworthy employer himself.

[ksjc]

Wow.

Just trying to answer a guy's question about Epaulettes/Uniforms and the thread turns into bashing the character of someone you don't even know. Bummer.

I like to think we are here to help each other along. I guess I'm wrong.

Last word: I work for a company who employs over 200 pilots and 50+ flight attendants and we all manage our expenses the same way...using a personal CC. Does this mean we area all not trustworthy? We are not a cookie-cutter flight department...each crew has the flexibility to choose where they stay.

[long final]

The way it is here now ksjc - unfortunately.

I work for one company with company CC and everything covered. The other company I pay out everything and claim back everything, just as ksjc - so I wonder what that makes me or my employers?

Both companies are great to work for and I have every confidence I will get paid within days of submitting my expenses. I have worked for both for 6 years and never once have had an issue regarding payments.

Horses and courses.

[NuName]

Well I get to see both sides of the fence, I sometimes find myself in the position where I have to use my credit card, and have done over many years. Because of this my credit limit has crept up to a truly amazing amount. I aint been burned yet (touch wood).

[mutt]

That's nice but how do you rent a car? No need, if i need to get somewhere, transport is supplied.

or pay for a taxi or bus, or buy a meal where YOU want to eat, or get a Coke from the food simulator, or buy a coffee, or get your shoes shined, etc? We get daily per diems for this sort of stuff.

cldrvr, you have to appreciate that there are many different ways of doing things, ksjc is detailing what appears to be a standard US system, just because its different shouldnt be taken as an indicator of his character, to do so, is IMHO extremely rude.

Mutt