Pilot sues Virgin

[teresa green]

It would appear that a rather senior F/O has decided to sue Virgin, because his Nav Bag is to heavy and he has done his back in. He said he should have been given a small computer on which to store his manuals. I must say I am speechless, though I have sympathy for anyone with a bad back, but we have all been lugging around Nav Bags since day one, and whilst I have heard whinging about it, lots of whinging, suing the company was not on the radar. It will be interesting to see how far he gets. (He wants over a million). Perhaps you should all jump on this cash cow if he is successful.:confused:

[Capt Claret]

Often it takes some sort of action such as this to make the power's that be listen, as opposed to just saying "no" and forgetting about the issue. :{ :ugh:

[waren9]

Obviously isn't that keen on a command then.

[CFD]

Shouldnt be speechless. Had the same happen to me. Had surgery over three years ago, and now on various permanent use of pain meds - loss of medical and a career of over 20 years. After all this time I am still not able to work full time and my employment options are extremely limited.
In my safety report to management I stated that carrying jepps in the nav bag was an issue (with various other items mine was over 15kg's) and why couldnt they be supplied to both pilots on the flight deck as in my last airline in Europe. Their answer was it was extremely unlikely to happen again.

[fmcinop]

That's why they invented Nav bags with wheels. As a training captain I used to carry twice the crap I did as a line captain without any problem at all.

All this was done with 2 titanium plates and 8 screws holding my back together. I certainly know all about serious back injury and pain.

With the issue of iPads this all should be a thing of the past anyway.

[Arm out the window]

He will be bloody lucky to be able to link the bad back directly to the carrying of a nav bag, I'd think.

Being charitable, it's possible, but to establish it as a work-related cause that the company should pay for is a bit of a stretch.

Realistically though, how hard is it to carry a nav bag? Sounds suss to me.

[LMFAO]

Good luck to him. Australia wake up and look at the rest of the world.

[Keg]

One of the reasons QF went from individual Jepp charts for 737 pilots to aircraft manuals was due to the potential injury risk of guys and gals moving bags in/out of the flight deck. Carrying them wasn't the issue, manoeuvring them in confined places was. There were a number of crews who had injuries- albeit none as serious as this one it appears- and thats why they made the change.

[The The]

News article says he was injured on Dec 29 2009 and claimed he should have had an iPad instead.

iPad was first released April 2010. Doh!!!

[chickoroll]

Seriously!the people claiming a bad back due carrying Jepps what's next?

[Dangnammit]

Chicko- Coffee in half cups to avoid too much strain, oh, and it can't be too hot either otherwise you may burn your tongue.

Seriously, carrying a heavy bag on one side over time , without a countering weight in the other hand can put a lot of lateral strain on your back.
It's not the weight, it's knowing how to lift, and I did furniture removals casually for 15 years- some pieces well over 100kg with 2 guys. Harden up!

[ad-astra]

Perhaps those Kangaroo Court Lawyers here can explain to me what this pilot should do for a career having not flown since 2009.

Perhaps those concerned about his potential Command in Virgin Australia can tell me what he should be doing when the daily chores are limiting.

Perhaps those that have lifted all manner of weights can tell me what they would do if they incurred an injury at work and their career, lifestyle and future were put on permanent hold.

Perhaps those who critise the specific Court action on the basis of what is written in a newspaper should have a very firm reality check!

Don't hold back if you have the FACTS but I find it pretty low to consign a pilots career and future to attitudes of "harden up" and "sounds suss"

PPRune at its best!

[parabellum]

Is it only in Australia that pilots are required to carry their own Jepps. around with them? The electronic age is taking over but throughout my career the Jepps. were on board the aircraft, two sets of common use approach plates, one set of the rest, per aircraft, maintained and updated by the Tech Library and frequently changed when the a/c gets back to base. What is so difficult about that?

When I had minor back problems my AME, also a Specialist in Aviation Medicine, said "get wheels", for both cargo bag and nav bag, forget the macho image!

[ad-astra]

parabellum

There is no requirement for us to carry our own personal set of Jeps.
It has been company policy to issue individual sets to each crew member.

It appears that this policy is about to change albeit somewhat late for some crew.

Wheeled bags are part of the solution but I would hazard a guess some of the posters above you have not been on a 737 let alone tried to wheel their Nav bag into position in the cockpit of a 737.

'Nemo Me Impune Lacessit' is rather appropriate in this situation!

[hoss]

Parabellum, that's fine but just remember "real" Pilots carry Nav bags!;)

Btw, absolutely outrageous claim in my opinion.

[fmcinop]

ad-astra,


last time I checked I had just under 7000 in B737 so I do know about manoeuvring a nav bag into place.

The B777 is really not much better as was the EMB.

As my personal trainer keeps telling me...."toughen up princess".

[ad-astra]

As I said - PPRune at its best!

[18-Wheeler]

Good career move. </irony>
Princess - Either get a nav bag with wheels and drag it behind you or get a backpack. I used both for years.

[PT6A]

I think a few airlines have been sued successfully in the states... I can't remember where I got that info from .... But it's in my head from somewhere.

I can't understand the logic from a cost point of view in making every pilot have a set of personal Jepps.

[teresa green]

A good time to bring to your attention what us old pilots suffer. Skin Cancer and bad backs are way up there, (there is no excuse whatsoever for any of you younger blokes getting skin cancer these days, oh and watch that area around the neck/chest when shedding the tie.) The other problem that can come up is varicose veins, as the sitting for long hours with the blood all pooled in the bottom half of your body puts pressure on your veins, the ones in your legs are bad enough but if you get them in your groin, well, what can I say that does not make your eyes water. More sinister problems showed up with the crews especially on the 747SP with a far more than normal rate of brain tumours, both malignant and benign, as well as a reduced fertility rate, this of course was shared by both CC and Tech crew. As I now belong to the retired blokes group we share our "ills" which for countless hours of flying have bequeathed us, so going on that info, I suggest a good sun screen always, plenty of sport and activity on down time, go consult a good chiropractor regarding a cushion to support your spine and never fly without it, get up a least once a hour and stretch hard, keep your weight down, sleep every chance you get, and everything you use should be on wheels, keep your stress levels down (hard in this world) and you will be fitter and healthier blokes than us at retirement.

[rmcdonal]

Keg, I find it interesting that one part of the group have a case for aircraft Jepps but other parts use pilot issued Jepps. I have not been on a 737 flight deck in a while but I would imagine that its about as cosy as a Dash8 flight deck.

[Martin VanNostrum]

The pilot in question's back went out as he attempted to lift his nav bag out of the confined space next to his seat. He now is crippled by the injury and unable to work. It happened while on duty. He is entitled to compensation. Some of you are a heartless lot.

[Kelly Slater]

PT6A, in most cases, the pilot pays for his Jepps so it costs the company nothing. If the company provided ships libraries, that would cost the company money and they would have to increase airfares, not be able to remain competetive and have to sell the airline.

[Keg]

rmcdonal, it was a holdover from the short haul/ long haul thing. I think AN used to have pilot issued Jepps domestically too. QF being a long haul airline had aeroplane charts- probably due to the number of charts required to be carried.

Are you guys using aeroplane charts or do you have a personal set?

[rmcdonal]

Personal set, with a company set for PNG Ops. Its the complete set as well not just company specific routes and ports.
There is always the talk of IPads (Probably the same talk in every airline in OZ) but I am as confident in that happening any time soon as I am of Mainline recruiting.

[Kenny]

in most cases, the pilot pays for his Jepps

After 13 years at the pointy end, I've yet to pay. In fact I can't think of any airline that makes you pay for such an important tool of the trade.

[BPA]

NAV bags with wheels helps when you are walking around the terminal, but the don't help when you are putting the bag in or taking it out of the flight deck and this is when the injuries are occurring.

[Anthill]

As a courtesy to the next pilot: when you leave the flight deck, slide the seat fully forward and also tilt it forward. This makes it easier for the next guy to slide their navbag in beside the seat. :ok:

I am aware that plenty of people have 'done their back' with a navbag over the years. This is the first time that I have heard of anyone claiming compo.

Do operators to FLI and KI still require that pilots load 55-65Kg bags of cray fish in and out of the aircraft whilst bent double?

[Capt Kremin]

OHS regs require the employer to forsee, without limitation, all possible health and safety threats to employees and mitigate against them.

This sounds like a threat that was forseeable. Unless they put in place controls to guard against this and the employee ignored them, the Company is liable. That is the law.

[F Scaler]

I haven't had to carry Jepps for a few years now. Medical problems aside (although certainly acknowledged), I'm not sure how any modern outfit, especially in a state such as Australia, can pass a QA check with a standard industry audit and knowingly have 1000's of manuals updated by thousands of different crew. I can certainly say the number of trip plate errors have been vastly reduced by having a company updated onboard library. Have a look at your company ops manual; Who owns the Jepp manuals? If they are owned by one of the Flight Ops departments, they should update them.
The obvious benefits-
Updated on the correct date/time
Updates won't be missing
Subscriptions saved will pay for staff to amend the librarys
There will be a system in place to please CASA


I know your big enough to know how to update a manual by now, but?
Ok, I'm wasting my breath. Bring on the EFB?

[Arm out the window]

sounds like a threat that was forseeable

Having to lift a 15 kg nav bag onto a shelf is a threat?

That's far from a difficult task for any reasonably fit person, and I dare say if you can pass your Class 1 medical it shouldn't be classed as a threat or problem.

Employers should have to provide a safe workplace, but I think this is the kind of thing that takes OH&S too far. Lifting an item the weight of a nav bag onto a shelf should not be classed as something that requires special procedures or assistance.

Edit: Sorry, I see from posts above he didn't have to lift it onto a shelf, but slide it out from next to his seat. That would require some twisting, I guess, but it's still not something I'd suggest is the company's problem. Any reasonably fit person should be able to do that.

[pull-up-terrain]

The pilot who is sueing Virgin is 57 years old (sounds like he is about to retire and is trying to get as much money from the company as possible).

Has anyone noticed that the incident occurred in 2009 and the ipad didnt come out until 2010...

[Capt Claret]

One former colleague has lost his career due to a back injury that presented on the flight deck, lifting & twisting his nav bag from it's outboard stowage. Another colleague had significant time off work due to a similar injury.

It's got nothing to do with whether one is fit, or has a Class 1 Medical, and everything to do with ergonomics.

Once again it's wonderful to see Aussie pilots supporting one another, not. :ouch:

[3 Holer]

sued successfully in the states

Naturally !

[Arm out the window]

It's not about pilots supporting one another or otherwise, just about what's reasonable to claim compensation for (fundamentally, blaming someone else for something that happens to you and getting them to pay).

If it's a clear foreseeable hazard that the company or responsible authority didn't take steps to prevent and someone gets hurt, then OK.

If it's something that would be generally accepted by reasonable people to be within the normal capabilities of a person, then maybe not OK.

Obviously that's the $64,000 question.

My personal opinion is that the incident as described isn't something the company should have to pay for.

This isn't an attack on the bloke in question or a suggestion that companies should be immune from responsibility, but clearly many things can happen to you at work, but not all of them are the company's fault, or indeed anyone's, just bad luck.

[maggot]

Having to lift a 15 kg nav bag onto a shelf is a threat?

That's far from a difficult task for any reasonably fit person, and I dare say if you can pass your Class 1 medical it shouldn't be classed as a threat or problem.

Employers should have to provide a safe workplace, but I think this is the kind of thing that takes OH&S too far. Lifting an item the weight of a nav bag onto a shelf should not be classed as something that requires special procedures or assistance.

Edit: Sorry, I see from posts above he didn't have to lift it onto a shelf, but slide it out from next to his seat. That would require some twisting, I guess, but it's still not something I'd suggest is the company's problem. Any reasonably fit person should be able to do that.

you've got it there, it's the leaning over twisting in the cramped space that is the 737 flight deck - do it over time and the risk is actually pretty large. Keg's post on page 1 sums it up. QF had a major oh&s crack down a few years ago and the 737 flight deck in all it's ergonomic glory was a hotspot with the bags. Also the action of reaching back/around (twisting, again.) to grab out the manuals throughout the day was also a contributor. Sounds like virgin is a sitting duck in this one...
so virgin folks, standby for an oh&s 'overview', fasten your cynicism.

[ad-astra]

pull-up-terrain

The pilot who is sueing (sic) Virgin is 57 years old (sounds like he is about to retire and is trying to get as much money from the company as possible)

So age is now the deciding factor in deciding the worth of a claim. Unbelievable!

Has anyone noticed that the incident occurred in 2009 and the ipad didn't come out until 2010...
With or without the iPad, Virgin (and by the sounds of it Qantas) were already well aware of the risks associated with the increasing Nav bag weights.
Ships libraries were being discussed well before this incident.
If you wish to base you 'learned decision' on what has been written in a newspaper prior to the case being heard then more fool you.

Capt Claret


Once again it's wonderful to see Aussie pilots supporting one another, not


Alas very few take a moment to walk in the shoes of another!

[Kelly Slater]

Whilst (yes whilst) my original post was tongue in cheek, I have only worked for one company that paid for my Jepps and am yet to work for anyone who has paid for my medical.

[Tee Emm]

Australia wake up and look at the rest of the world.

You mean all those primary school children forced to lug huge bags on their backs to and from school. Their parents must be idiots. Worse still with high school kids. I feel sorry for them all bending over with these ridiculous loads of books forcing them to crouch when walking instead of walking upright. Interesting case for class action (pun-geddit!)

[Centaurus]

The pilot in question's back went out as he attempted to lift his nav bag out of the confined space next to his seat. He now is crippled by the injury and unable to work. It happened while on duty. He is entitled to compensation. Some of you are a heartless lot.

I know of a captain that while twisting in his seat and reaching up and behind him to locate his headset, buggered his back so painfully that he had to be carried off the aircraft. He was out of action for several weeks despite visits to the medicos and acupuncture treatment.

Maybe he should have sued the airline for making the headsets hard to reach without twisting? Where does it all stop?

[Centaurus]

Do operators to FLI and KI still require that pilots load 55-65Kg bags of cray fish in and out of the aircraft whilst bent double?

I don't know about now, but years ago, the shonky Essendon operator (he was a Qantas captain making money on the side) I flew for using Navajo's to Tasmania, insisted the bags of crays weighed 35 kgs for the loadsheet when I was quite certain they were 55 kgs when I tried to load them.

No wonder the aircraft was porpoising all the way back to Essendon with outside the aft limit centre of gravity. Scary stuff and I refused to fly with that operator again.

[Capt Claret]

You mean all those primary school children forced to lug huge bags on their backs to and from school. Their parents must be idiots. Worse still with high school kids. I feel sorry for them all bending over with these ridiculous loads of books forcing them to crouch when walking instead of walking upright. Interesting case for class action (pun-geddit!)

And if one talks to an Osteopath, Chiropractor, or Orthopedic specialist, they'll as agree that kids lugging heavy bags, year in, year out, throughout school, is exceptionally bad for their backs.

That we oldies did it is irrelevant, those who go through life without back trouble are lucky. Try the flip side.

[Fliegenmong]

Centaurus "Where does it all stop?"

Yes where exactly, and something like this will further exacerbate things. The new WH&S laws that came into effect on Jan 1, are a real eye opener.

If you were to hire a Nanny now (and who has that kind of money, but that's an aside) You are then deemed to be a PCBU, of a Person Conducting a Business or Undertaking

If said nanny hurts herself in your house,............yep you guessed it

Volunteer associations are exempt, but that is not to be confused with an association of volunteers, such as committee members of a Body Corporate (QLD, or whatever the NSW equivalent is). You are then deemed to be part of a PCBU, and you are culpable if someone injures themselves onsite.

I believe it springs from Hargreaves Vs. Telstra., when whilst working from home for telstra, Hargeaves, wearing socks on a carpeted staircase slipped and hurt him/her self......Telstra was found to be at fault, figure that one out

Said it before, we're a stupid country, if this claim is succesful, expect more compliancy BS!:ugh:

[Oakape]

I believe it springs from Hargreaves Vs. Telstra., when whilst working from home for telstra, Hargeaves, wearing socks on a carpeted staircase slipped and hurt him/her self......Telstra was found to be at fault, figure that one out

Said it before, we're a stupid country, if this claim is succesful, expect more compliancy BS!

Cast your eye eastward to the good 'ole US of A. They invented this sort of litigatious stupidity.

[Capn Bloggs]

You mean all those primary school children forced to lug huge bags on their backs to and from school. Their parents must be idiots. Worse still with high school kids. I feel sorry for them all bending over with these ridiculous loads of books forcing them to crouch when walking instead of walking upright.
Not a funny as it sounds. My daughter just started at "big" school. The expletives that came out of my mouth when I tried to pick up her backpack impressed all in earshot. I said "get a wheely bag!" to which the missus said "won't work because there's too many stairs all over the campus".

For you morons that think "fitness" equals strength, you're twits. Slipping in your socks on a staircase at home is one thing; busting your back swinging a navbag into a small hole in the cockpit is another.

[Fliegenmong]

Agreed Oakape! Absolutely, though I intended to point out the latest round of nanny state bull dust had it's catalyst in something as unfathomable as the decision Hargreaves / Telstra.

Imagine if one day someone tripped over a nav bag.......it's becoming not so ridiculous to suggest that Nav bags must be made of an approved Hi Viz, material or be fitted with a Hi Viz cover compliant to god knows what applicable AS there would be.

I know if you wanted to look up that particular AS (Aust. Standard) you would have to buy it:hmm:

[hoss]

Just weighed my Nav bag and contents at 6.2kg. That is with all that I need to sign on at Virgin. The 18.0kg that is being claimed will be interesting, which union is representing the case?

[gobbledock]

I reckon he was carrying around all that 'Virgin flair' in his bag, along with a home packed lunch, personally signed copy of 'Losing My Virginity' and some face painting kits, hence the excessive bag weight.
The bag was still a few kilos lighter than one would expect because he wasnt carrying around the Virgin 'must haves'!!

Personally I hope his litigation goes well, I mean the Virgin founders managed to extract millions out of the company for their own future enjoyment so why not this bloke? Go for broke son, claim some PTS also if you can !

[Dangnammit]

Lifting and twisting will ruin your back. It's a lot worse than than a clean straight lift.
Never twist your back when it's under load!

This bloke may have a chance...

oh&s, jsa... workcare/safe/cover field day

[ampan]

Wasn't the solution obvious? Instead of one big one, use two small ones.

[flying-spike]

I apologize for the thread drift, My youngest son is in year 9 and has to carry all his school books every day because at his school lockers are banned due to some kids leaving their lunch in them and growing salmonella etc. and unannounced changes in timetable.
I have lost my class 1 and 2 due to a motor vehicle accident giving me back injuries. I sympathize with the plaintiff in this case.

[PA39]

would this happen if someone was overweight, losing his hearing, boozing to the max, possibly having difficulty with the medical and ready for retirement?

[gobbledock]

would this happen if someone was overweight, losing his hearing, boozing to the max, possibly having difficulty with the medical and ready for retirement? VA Flight Attendants?

My youngest son is in year 9 and has to carry all his school books every day because at his school lockers are banned due to some kids leaving their lunch in them and growing salmonella etc. Similar thing happenned at QF Catering !

[flying-spike]

Good to hear you are back Gobbledock. No I am not near retirement (not that I know of at least). Anybody that actually consumes QF catering is in business class (how can you stuff up a wrapped muesli bar) and has themselves to blame.

[Rollingthunder]

Actually I'm surprised you folks are carrying around so much paper weight in the days of iPad/iPod, CD-Roms etc. Even having a second unit as a back-up would not weigh very much. I made a suggestion that our MCM and Boeing manuals be converted to CD-Roms about 15 years ago. Was not taken seriously. Would have saved 100th of the weight minimum and about 50 feet of shelf space.

[framer]

How much do you reckon all this sort of carry-on (pun intended) costs Australia? The Asian and Middle East Airlines don't have to pay for all this legislation, mitgation, .......flagellation....

[HF3000]

And how much does it cost them... in terms of quality of living and employment of the populace... economic figures do not measure quality of life, which is what it is all about really.

I'd live in Australia any day, even if my taxes are a little higher than Asia and the Middle East.

[Calldepartures]

As an OHS Rep, I offer the following; (apologies to those that have been to the OH&S training and can recite these paragraphs verbatim)

21. Duties of employers to employees



(1) An employer must, so far as is reasonably practicable, provide and
maintain for employees of the employer a working environment that is safe and
without risks to health.

Penalty: 1800 penalty units for a natural person; 9000 penalty units for a
body corporate.

(2) Without limiting subsection (1), an employer contravenes that subsection
if the employer fails to do any of the following-

(a) provide or maintain plant or systems of work that are, so far as is
reasonably practicable, safe and without risks to health;

(b) make arrangements for ensuring, so far as is reasonably practicable,
safety and the absence of risks to health in connection with the use,
handling, storage or transport of plant or substances;

(c) maintain, so far as is reasonably practicable, each workplace under
the employer's management and control in a condition that is safe and
without risks to health;

(d) provide, so far as is reasonably practicable, adequate facilities for
the welfare of employees at any workplace under the management and
control of the employer;





(e) provide such information, instruction, training or supervision to
employees of the employer as is necessary to enable those persons to
perform their work in a way that is safe and without risks to health.


It really boils down to this,

1. Was there previously a hazard identified, and if so..
2. Was a risk assessment undertaken?
3. Where appropriate control measures in place?
4. Was the employee executing their duty in relation to Section 25 of the OH&S Act?

I will paste section 25 hereunder. For what it is worth, my own opinion in relation to this particular case is reserved as I would need to be right accross all the particulars.

I am not an advocate of suing or the "yank" way of doing things. I am in favour of reporting of potential risks to safety, employers and employees consulting to ensure a workplace is as safe and comfortable as possible.

25. Duties of employees



(1) While at work, an employee must-

(a) take reasonable care for his or her own health and safety; and

(b) take reasonable care for the health and safety of persons who may be
affected by the employee's acts or omissions at a workplace; and

(c) co-operate with his or her employer with respect to any action taken
by the employer to comply with a requirement imposed by or under this
Act or the regulations.

[Servo]

Some of the post's on here a quite disgusting. People like Hoss, whom now works at VA should be ashamed of themselves. This person is a fellow pilot a company one at that!

No wonder the Flight Ops etc. is a basket case with people like you and others on here driving in the knife in the back of a fellow pilot. You people disgust me.

I hope that none of you experience such a problem, then again maybe it would be for the best (for others) that you do, you may learn empathy.

The mention of ipads could quite possibly be the words of the reporter..........

[Arm out the window]

so far as is reasonably practicable
That's the critical point - what's reasonable in this case.

I'm sure there'll be lawyers aplenty happy to argue at length about whether lifting a nav bag out from beside a seat is just too risky.

[ampan]

What ever happened to the ship's library?

[teresa green]

I think fella's that if this bloke gets some money, VA/QF/JQ will be watching carefully for senior pilots who suddenly cannot straighten up, and rightfully so. The fact is, this could open a flood gate for the "suddenly stricken" suddenly pain on the flight deck will become worthy of acts that would put Russell Crowe to shame, and separating the wheat from the chaff will not be easy. Meanwhile Slater and Gordon are circling.

[hoss]

Just re checked my posts #16 and 48.
What's so disgusting about a whether I carry or drag a bag?
I'm entitled to an opinion.
The weight of my bag is a fact.
What is wrong with asking who is advising him?

Nothing offensive or disgusting from me.

Direct your attention at "who let the cat out of the bag"!

[Arm out the window]

I bet if people like Servo had to dig into their own pockets to pay the claim the outraged accusations would be a bit less strident.

[TBM-Legend]

I used to see Capt Linton Snr humping bags and swinging 20lt oil drums up onto his DC-3 at Mascot

[TBM-Legend]

I used to see Capt Linton K. Snr humping bags and swinging 20lt oil drums up onto his DC-3 at Mascot without a problem. I guess in the "olden days" compo wasn't such a big thing....

[Capn Bloggs]

TBM-Legend, stop stuttering. Oops, should I have written that?

[Kanga767]

Here's an interesting scenario - A back injury from lifting your nav bag up for security screening.

[woodja51]

Why do you need jepp charts anyway... Dont you guys have an FMS with all the approaches in it.. ? Coded and QA checked etc..

All that is missing is the minima and you can pretty much work that out with a brain..or ask the atc dude .....

Oh..And a aerodrome chart... Wot else do you need to get from an ils to an ils anyway? Okay ... Waiting for comments on that one!

But seriously, electronic flight bags and ipad type devices are the way forward for several reasons ... It is just more cost at the moment than the mandraulic paper way I guess.?
WJA

[greenslopes]

woodja get a licence, this is a forum for professional pilots.

[gobbledock]

Spike, thankyou for the warm welcome, it's good to be back after a short hiatus away on business matters. Hopefully we will be sparring again soon! I hope your back gets better soon ol fella.

Now, enough of the warm, fuzzy, group hug bulls#it as it is not in my nature.
I think there is some real merit to this thread. The more procedural, compliance and 'rule book' oriented society becomes the more paperwork required. The upside is that with technological advances a faster solution is required for this exact problem.
I also know accurately that school kids today carry so much school related sh#t in their bags that many younglings are visiting chiro's and physio's for some fairly serious injuries.

As for the VA driver, remember, we all have different body types including strengths and weaknesses. For example one guy may be able to throw around 30 kg bags of cement all day whereas another may be a soft co#k and only able to lift a coffee cup all day. We shouldn't write of this Driver as his claim could be quite legit. Hell I have a mate who is related to a train driver. All the train driver has done for 20 years is push a power lever basically, yet he has had RSI, 2 operations and now hand and wrist arthritis as a result, poor bugger suffers a lot of pain. Yet other Drivers of over 30 years experience haven't had as much as one dose of 'wankers cramp' their entire career! They have been either fortunate or again they have a different body type and are not prone to wrist/hand injuries.
Go figure.

[flying-spike]

All I can say is if your cork is too soft you must have been soaking it too long!

[adsyj]

She's a tough old school is PPRune.

Wouldn't this be a compo case, in which case the he has to prove his claim yada yada, or has he lost his medical and it would be insurer suing insurer.

I had a bulged disc once, came out of nowhere was just getting out of the car. I couldn't fly for thirty days.

I have some sympathy for this bloke, back injuries can be a real bastard, no visible symptoms but **** loads of pain.

[gobbledock]

All I can say is if your cork is too soft you must have been soaking it too long!
Thanks Spike. But I am not Hugh Hefner so my 'cork' receives minimal soaking these days.
I had considered the term 'princesses' instead of 'soft co*k', however that may offend our Jetstar friends, then I considered 'pansies' but that might
offend my gay colleagues. So I then thought of 'skirts' but that could offend the female pruners so I stuck with the 'soft co*k' term, which will likely offend those pruners with a more robust/moral compass than I have. So I guess you can see the quandary I am in, an aging man in a world run by Gates and Zuckerberg!

Bring back the 60's Spike - Free love (condom-no thanks!), free speech, Hendrix, Zepplin and a young Eric Clapton. Add into the mix the VW and XR Falcon, stubbies and thongs in the workplace, no suncreen and to hell with skin cancer, cigarettes without pictures on the packet of rotting flesh, good ol fashioned pub fights with fists and not knives, coppers who would let you off from a speeding offence with just a clip around the ear - no speed camera's, a DCA who regulated by way of face to face, and no Alan Joyce. Hardly a synthetic brain destrying party drug to be found, Throw in commercial jets that guzzled A1 by the gallons/polluted the atmosphere/broke every decibel level in the book and let you feel every shake, shimmy and movement in the stick and rudder, and forget earmuffs or vest on the tarmac, plus you could fly the jet on 2 hours sleep after drinking and bonking hosteis all night (some still do :E).........Ok better to stop now!
Oh the youth of today, Gen Y, Gen X, Genitals - They won't ever live as free as we did. Was it safe? Probably not, but did we survive - most of us did.
As my friend Kharon would say - Selah.

[Arm out the window]

Fair enough to feel sorry for someone's pain, but if you can do your back just hopping out of the car it goes to show how tricky it is to say what's the cause of an incident of this type.

You should have sued the car manufacturer for your loss of earnings and the mental and physical anguish you experienced.

Just joking, of course, but how far away is that from the nav bag experience, notwithstanding that that happened in a workplace?

[adsyj]

Arm

You are right, the only thing he has to argue is that it allegedly happened in the work place.

In my case I found that I had a dodgy lower back as a result of many years of swim trianing and surfing. This apparantly has your lower back in an unsupported manner and over the years unless you compliment swimming and surfing with other preventitve exercise it will eventually get you. I just swung my legs to get out of the car and bang i was stuffed, couldn't move, had to get someone to pick me up.

If the guy legitimately hurt himself at work doe to his flight bags then fair enough. I just think it might be hard to prove. Then again lawyers will suck up tens of thousands arguing the point.

It is a reminder to all that along with loss of licence you should buy income protection.

[hadagutful]

Interesting to scan through some of the posts on this topic.

I fly for business and pleasure and I am in the busines of advising on personal risk protection (otherwise known as insurance).
Having taken medical histories from hundreds of people over the years, I would say that back and other joint injuries and disorders are very common. This is particularly so in the older age group, 50+ but it isn't uncommon in younger people as well.
The causes can be work related but other factors come into play like certain sports with overuse injury and things like domestic activity, gardening, lifting etc.
I'm not a doctor or physio but I know from personal experience that even sitting for periods of time with incorrect posture can cause back strain and pain. (Cockpit seat ergonomics?)
So whether this individual pilot wins his case remains to be seen but it may be difficult to prove that it related solely to his flying and carrying his bag. You would ned to know his entire medical history and his hobbies, sports etc.

I think adsyj above makes the very valid point though that it's important to have income protection not just for this but all accident and sickness possibilities and without wanting to do any "hard sell" if anyone needs info or help, I have a specific aircrew income protection for anyone needing assistance.

Can contact me direct through PPrune. :ok:

[gobbledock]

It is a reminder to all that along with loss of licence you should buy income protection. Spot on! It is the best thing that money can buy.
Likewise, I was brushing my teeth one morning, I was a mere 25 years young. I stood up from the sink and was walking away from the bathroom when my back locked up. I was crippled in pain. No previous back history problems and no previous injury. It took 12 months to get back on track. The technology wasn't around back then that we have today to investigate and identify the problem through MRI and CT scan , but it is now proven that I had torn muscles betweel L4 and L5. My back started playing up again when I turned 40 and is a constant sounce of pain and discomfort today. Root Cause??? No idea. Brushed my teeth and then bit the dirt as a result!
Warning - Where and when you can buy income protection and ensure you report EVERYTHING in the worplace. It is time consuming and sometimes seems pedantic but every tweak, strain, anything in the workplace should be documented, not for the purpose of being a pain in the ass or attempting a rort, but to cover and protect yourself.

Just quickly, true story - I had a nurse friend in central queensland. As a joke somebody at work put some thorn spikes inside her surgical glove (it was a heavy duty specialist type glove, not the standard thin type). Anyway, she spiked herself (ha ha it was all very funny) and ended up with a small sore on her finger so she filled in a workplace incident report, of course she was ridiculed mercilessly over this. Three weeks later her finger swelled up, excruciating pain and she couln't work (her theatre hands are her tools). End result - A microscopic piece of the thorn broke off and lodged in her knucle. She had three operations and has a permanent disabilty in her hand/finger and could never work as a steady handed theatre nurse again. In fact they couldn't/wouldn't retain her or place her in a different role and ended up sacking her. It was her personal work insurance cover that eventually saw her through a period of seveal years unemployment and a payout came down the track. Of course her 'Employer' who was responsible for the entire episode didn't back her and pineappled her instead as they thought she was a liablity. Again, had she not had her own protection she would have had several years of financial grief.
Part of the happy ending is that I married this girl and she is a beautiful woman who went on to bigger and better career heights in the health care world by using her brain instead of her hands!

And one last word of warning. Remember that most forms of personal insurance/income protection only cover a percentage of what you earn, so for example if you earn 200k per year (CASA admin Clerk) you may only get say 75% of that salary (150k), so do your sums and shop around. Some policies only cover you for after you have been out of work for three months and up to a maximum of 2 years etc. Some won't cover you if you have prior injuries or things such as depression. Also some policies won't cover you if you neck yourself, so think of your family. Sounds harsh but a fact.

Stay safe.

[Green wave]

There will be more court cases, but with far bigger issues than bad backs. I hope that particular company wakes up to what flight departments really get up too.

[teresa green]

Gobbledock, wait till you get to my age, its fast becoming all but memories.

[PA39]

I'm with you Teresa Green. Let the truth be known with this story, there is a tale to tell. The heaviest things he may have ever lifted was a schooner glass and his pay packet. I doubt whether this will go the distance.

[ampan]

Morrie Davis would have had the alleged cripple dragged up to the 19th floor of AirNZ House, roped him to a desk-leg, and then politely explained to the chap that he got paid more than Morrie did - "And I'm running the f8cking show, dickwad!".

Give me Davis over Fyfe any day.

[Kenny]

Having just started my 4th month off, due to an injury sustained at work, I've had a recent crash course in how workers comp and your legal options, work.

A few posters have said he may have issues proving the injury was sustained at work, however for him to be out on workers comp, Virgin's insurance company
will already have accepted the injury was sustained at work and agreed to the claim.

In order to win damages, all he has to prove is that the injury will/has stopped him from meeting his future financial expectations or that he will have future medical bills due to the injury.

The reality of the situation, is that in Australia you can't just sue your employer for being injured at work or even any other entity or person that contributed to the injury being sustained. If this was the States I would be sitting on a fairly large pile of cash. Because its Australia, nothing.

I will say, from my own personal experience, that Virgin will have looked after him very well. I'm sure it wasn't a decision he's taken lightly.

[flying-spike]

"all he has to prove is that the injury will/has stopped him from meeting his future financial expectations or that he will have future medical bills due to the injury."

Sorry if I burst the bubble but in my case it has taken 4 years since the accident so far and they have accepted liability! There still hasn't been a settlement. I hope your case is settled sooner than mine.

[teresa green]

When on the DC9, pilots considered it very cool to hold both sides of the railings and slide to the ground. This Pilot made a total goose of himself, by trying it forgetting he had a set of keys in his hand. The end result. A thumb that was severely lacerated, and a twisted ankle caused by the pain in the thumb that made me let go of the railing and fell half down the stairs, much to the amusement of the Lames and Flight Engineer. I was then called a stupid bastard by the duty Captain, and then even worse when I got home to my missus, who was a Trauma ward nursing sister. Do you think its to late for me to sue?:O

[Capn Bloggs]

much to the amusement of the Lames and Flight Engineer
FE on the DC9? Let's not get too far off the railings. :}

[teresa green]

True mate, he was on the jump. No flighty on the 9 (mores the pity it was a very busy little flight deck) no hubcaps on that little beast, best thing I ever flew, bitchy and beautiful.