Corporate Commuting Spain to Algers

[Dan Kennison]

This is my first post. If this is the wrong place for this post, I apologize up front and I hope the administrator will move it to the correct place in the forum. I am hoping to get advise from the flying community before I commit to a new location.

I have a 2-3 year project in Algeria and will be transporting between 4-7 engineers back and forth between Algers and a location in Europe for R and R on a weekly basis. I was considering Valencia, Barcelona etc. as a home base so the engineers can have a rest in a nice location but I am open to ideas.

Looking at commercial flight schedules restricts the cities available, so I am considering leasing or purchasing an A/C to shuttle back and forth and maybe use it to provide some local trips for family members that visit from the US.

I welcome the perspective from pilots on feasibility, costs, A/C types and locations.

Thank you in advance.

Best Regards,

[cgurgand]

Dan,

I'm a Citation Jet pilot based in Algeria. So I would recommend to buy a CJ2 or CJ3 for this and there is many reasons for that. First CJ's are the most popular light jets in europe, you'll find a lot of pilot certified and spare parts. Second, Cessna is building a Citation Jet Service center in Valence that should be available end of this year, in the meantime, there is a perfect citation center in Paris Le Bourget.

But you have to know that business jets in europe are much more expensive than in the US. For many reasons, taxes, number of hours flown, regulation, maintenance, etc... But the main thing is to be aware of the two different regulations. You can operate an aircraft in europe commercially or privately. Privately means it's used only by the owner (including colleagues, friends, family). Commercially means, it is operated by an airline under an AOC (Aircraft Operator Certificate), you can use it and charter it to anyone on the market. As the owner you rent your aircraft to the operator according to a specific contract. It takes 6 months min to put everything in place.

Privately is much easier, you can fly a CJ with only one pilot (always 2 pilots for commercial jets even single pilot certified), no specific regulations, instantly operable. BUT there is for private aircraft in most european countries an addition MOT (Mineral Oil Taxe) that can be up to 45 cents of euro per litter !!!!
So it will be an average price per liter of JET A1 around 1,3 euro. The first hour of a CJ2 is about 600 liters.

You can also charter an aircraft from a charter company based where you are based in Spain.

I'll be pleased to discuss your option or to answer your further questions so feel free to contact me.

Best regards

Cedric

[Liftboy]

Check your inbox! :ok:

[Boss Raptor]

from memory - as I always used to hear the PA at Madrid Airport as flight left before mine - there is a daily? certainly regular Iberia service Madrid-Algiers

[340drvr]

A King Air 300/350 is the first a/c that comes to mind.

[Ecocharlie]

Hello Dan I fly a hawker 900xp , 8 seats configuration base in Madrid . Owns to the company . If I can help you let me know.

[mrmum]

How about one of these;
Welcome to Pilatus Aircraft Ltd (http://www.pilatus-aircraft.com/#10)

[LGW Vulture]

If you are shuttling only once a week between VLC or BCN and Algiers, then you are not going to fly 100 hours per year that´s for sure. If you fly less than 200 hours then charter is the way to go. Purchasing an aircraft is way OTT unless you tell us there will be much more flying to be done. I broker aircraft and am telling you honestly that buying would be mad.

Let me know if you need any help.

[Dan Kennison]

I tried to reply to all the great information sent to me via private message but I must be doing something wrong, anyway....

I was wondering if you know if there are people that can maintain Gulfstream 1 (159) in Spain. I am looking at an older well maintained plane but would still need someone that knows where parts are and knows how to maintain the aircraft. I would also need to find a qualified pilot/manager to operate the aircraft. thank you

[cldrvr]

A G1 is a beautiful aircraft. However for you to consider that for your Algiers-Spain commute shows me that you don't really have a clue what it takes to operate one. For the hourly cost of a G1, you can run 5 King airs simultanuously. Yes they may be cheap to buy but they cost more to operate an hour then most jets do.

Please do yourself a favor and get some professional advise if you are serious about this, just looking at pretty pictures in Controller is not going to get you the aircraft you need.

[Dan Kennison]

From your post, you sound like you must not be capable of flying a G1 and are not a mechanic for a G1 (which was the subject of my post) but you feel you have all the knowledge required to make this decision. Can you share what the costs are to run 5 King Airs vs 1 G1. Could you let me know what those numbers are?

Given that 2 of our employees are 6'6" and the G1 has an interior height of 7'1" and we care about our employees comfort the King Air might be cheaper on an hourly basis but may be impractical unless they walk on their knees.

Since I must fully depreciate the total cost over 2.5 years given internal issues that you are not aware of and the up front cost of a King Air vs $450K for the G1; I think your assumption may not be well thought out. Rather than explain all the nuances with my particular situation I simply decided to ask a straight forward question and was hoping for a straight forward answer.

Thank you

[Spunky Monkey]

Dan
Most passengers I fly with, who are 6'6", generally sit down when they are in the aircraft, so standing room of 7'1" is not really an issue.

Additionally a distance of less than 300 miles from Algiers to Valencia, the conventional wisdom is that a Turbo Prop would be a better bet.
Indeed if you are heading further into the country, an aircraft like a King Air or PC12 would be more flexible on an un-prepared strip.

An older aircraft my seem cheaper, however if you are not on an engine program, you could find that your $2.5mil will be sitting around waiting for a very very expensive part or inspection.

Every few months somebody comes on here and asks us what we think as pilots, engineers, brokers and businessmen, indeed generally a combination of at least 2 of these. When the situation is explained many don't agree.

However there will always be people out there who know everything while there are even more who would be very keen to relieve the naive of their funds for an old dog of an aircraft. (see the Robert Weaver thread).

People are more than willing to help, indeed, you will find everything that you are looking for on this forum.

[Dan Kennison]

Wow - not good

[cldrvr]

Ok Dan, I'll bite again. Those Darts guzzle roughly 1250 litres an hour, on fuel burn alone you can run 2 king airs.

But heh, don't let me stop you.

You posted here for advise, but as soon as someone here posts something you don't like, you will ignore it anyways.

As an aside, who cares how tall the guys are, they will only stand up for 30 seconds to get into their seat on the way out and another 30 seconds when they get there.

You want to buy a 38t aircraft with 2200shp Darts, to run a few employees back and forth on a 450nm trip? Go right ahead, it's your money. Overhauling 2 of those Darts will set you back the same as buying a midtime BE200.


Keep dreaming, Dan, it sure is entertaining for us professionals.

[VIKING9]

The idea of a Jetstream 31 came to mind for this but to be honest, many types exist that would suit the needs of the company. Utilisation will be low by the sounds of things. Drop me a PM as I may be able to help. I'm involved with an operator down in Spain, plus have many contacts in Algiers.

[dss3000]

Hello Dan

A good G1 is an option and as you know the acquisition price is low , that means a lot of capital left for the fairly high operating cost, if you only plan to fly 100-150 hours a year it's certainly will leave a suitable amount of downtime for the maintenance. Make sure you get a well experienced Engineer he will save you a lot of head aches. Also a high time turbo prop pilot who's looking for a semi retirement job would fit the bill, do you plan on having the aircrew on a rotation basis as well ? BTW it will attract more qualified crews.
Make sure you get in touch with Gulfstream in Savanah GA they should be able to provide you with plenty of good leads for Maintenance crews as well as pilots.

Good luck with your project, and my hats off to you for trying to establish a first class operation for your employee's

[His dudeness]

Dan,

I have no real knowledge about the G1...

What I have experience in is operating in Europe.

You say you wanna move 4 to 7 guys.

Considering parking fees in Europe, airway/ATC fees, handling, hangarage, ETS (emission trade scheme) etcetc. I would say cldrvr has a good point in his KingAir remark.

If it is really not more than 7 blokes, a B200 could fit the bill IMO. Below 5,7tons you can stay out of ETS.
Almost every fee in Europe is based on max takeoff weight, so staying below 5,7 gives you a lot of flexibility and a way cheaper operation.

There are still B200s around you could charter before you decide. Which I would recommend to you anyhow: try the aircraft out before you buy it. At 100-200hrs, as pointed out, you will actually safe on chartering vs. operating yourself.

Sorry if all this info is not what you are looking for...

[Dan Kennison]

I really appreciate your in-put and the in-put of most others on this forum. I am leaning in that direction (King Air B200). I will be in Spain next week to visit Ronda, Ibiza, Mallorca and Valencia again. These cities also have small boutique hotels for sale - so the location is beginning to narrow. The depth of service of the G/A airports in each city will have some bearing on the choice.