Am I mad?

[Trayman]

First time poster looking for any advice or input.

I'm a forty year old man in a stable job, earning a reasonable salary, with a young family. I'm looking at undertaking full flight training (PPL through to Multi IR) in Ireland. It would be a struggle to come up with the funds and to keep things ticking over for the duration of the training, but it would be doable.

I was told that should I be successful, there would be opportunities, even for someone of my age with someone like Aer Arann or one of the cargo airlines.

I need some opinions on the wisdom of such an undertaking, in terms of future job opportunities, my age and family status etc. Am I mad?

[Bumps]

Trayman,

I would say, with a young family and just enough cash to get yourself through training, stay where you currently are.

There are tons of people out there with 250hrs and they all want that job. Not only that there are also a lot of high-time qualified people out there as well. Spanair, Malev and Astraeus recently went bust, all these guys are now out there looking for another job.

If you were to be one of the lucky few to get hired out of flight school, you'd probably end paying for your type rating as well, with companies like Ryanair, that's another £25000 to add to your training costs.

If you are not hired on to a jet or larger type TP after training, expect to stay on small pistons not earning very much before moving up to bigger planes.

All in all, in my opinion, with a young family to support, it's not worth risking it.

My advice would be to take a trial lesson, see if you like it, possibly get your PPL and keep flying as a hobby.

These are just my thoughts though, and I'm currently just a private pilot working my way up the ladder with a goal to one day get paid to fly. I'm sure there will be others around with a different opinion, but ultimately it's up to you and your family. Good luck with whatever you decide.

[redsnail]

Personally, IMHO, yes.

For sure, you do have a chance with Aer Arran and so on, maybe even more should you be so lucky.

However, you MUST weigh up the "cons". The "pros" are obvious. :)

The cost. Will you earn your costs back? You're 40ish. Yes, that gives you 20 or so years to earn the money back. However, when you're in your 40s you should be earning maybe 30-40K already. You may only be earning 18-25K for 5+ years. If you're lucky...

Factor in the costs of training versus family holidays, presents and the like.

Now, the view from the LHS of a jet is pretty good. Amazing actually. However, starting at 40 odd with a young family etc just may be too expensive. Your family is really the most precious thing you have.

You must look at it with an objective eye.
If you can weigh it all up honestly and believe it's worth it, then go for it.
Look up GAPAN and do their tests.
Good luck.

[dcoded]

Hey,

welcome to our forum.


"I was told that should I be successful, there would be opportunities, even for someone of my age with someone like Aer Arann or one of the cargo airlines."

How told you this?

The problem will not be getting through with training. Obviously by looking at todays situation we see that we have to many fresh graduates.
So training is the easy part, as long as you have money.

The hard part is to actually score a job. Look around in the forum and you will see a lot of people having a hard time.
Of course there are some exceptions, but they are note so many in my opinion.

Because of todays market, as I stated, some airlines are taking advantage of the situation by requiring cadets paying for own type rating. That is today pretty much standard for most carriers.
Sadly, like having the burden of an extra expense of 20000EUR wasn't enough it's becoming more and more popular for carriers to require a minimum of 500hrs on type before you can join. In that case some carriers, charge you for this "training" as well, putting that 20000EUR extra expense to around 50000EUR. Don't forget that you already have put around 40-60000EUR for your initial training, if you are even lucky to get away with that.

Now, since it seems like today, most of the cadet "pilots" have unlimited supply of fresh money, 500hrs on type will put you right back on the street to make way for a new fresh graduate ready to pay that airline. Let face it, why should they hire you after those 500hrs, when there is a long line of people behind?

Im sorry if my response seem grim, I just wanted to give you my view of the story, from the inside.
Some FTOs like to twist and turn the story for their own profit, and who can blame them? They have set up an business to make money. And this is how they "lure" people in.
Not lure maybe, because I hope that most of the pilots are smart enough and can get a picture of their own before making a decision to join this so called profession.
If you are still interested in joining after you get you OWN picture, then go ahead.
Im not trying to discourage you in any way. I just hope that you can stick around on this forum and get a glimpse. Try talking to pilots you meet in the FTOs etc. But what ever you do, NEVER trust what the FTOs are telling you. Believe me, I currently work in an FTO, and get sometimes sick when I hear what the sellers are saying to the "prospects"

If you need any more asistance, please. We are all here in this forum for you, and eachother.

[BAe 146-100]

Not mad but its a bigger risk doing it at 40 then at 30 or 20 due to the reasons already mentioned (low starting wage etc.) plus you saying that you only just will be able to afford it is not ideal, due to the the fact that you will always be spending more rather than less on the training to get a job (type rating etc or exam retakes) .

My advice like an another poster would be to get a class 1 medical to rule out any potential problems and do a PPL, weigh up the industry in 12 months time and take it from there. 2 airlines have just gone bust in a matter of weeks, which means that the already surplus of pilots out there trying to get work has doubled or tripled in a matter of weeks, its not looking too good not just for yourself but anybody looking to do an ATPL.

However the forecasts are that the demand for new pilots in the next 10 years will be great, but make that as you will.

[truckflyer]

Yes you are mad, but than if we had not been mad, we would not have been on these forums looking for advice.

However with no flight experience, even at PPL level, I would do as others suggest get class 1 medical, get your PPL, do some hours PPL, you have to anyway for your hour building, and than decide before you spend the big money and time on ATPL theory, CPL/ME/IR - as this not just cost you much money, but also time, loss of earnings etc. during training period.

Than again if you don't try, you will never know, however if you do go into it, go into it with your eyes wide open, and know the numbers before you start. Expect at least to spend around £70.000 -£80.000 as rough guide (includes a Type Rating in that price - modular training) , and don't expect to get this money back trough flying.

And if you lucky and get a job, expect it to take at least 5 to 10 years before you will have decent earnings.

With those facts at hand, decide if you are mad or not! Remember you are not the only mad one on here, there are many of us! :8

[Grass strip basher]

Yes you are mad. Seriously forget it. You have a family and responsibilities and frankly it sounds like you are not in a position to take a gamble like this with very long odds. It would be a very selfish thing to do to risk you family's financial well being. You are too old, get over you middle age crisis and focus on what is best for your family rather than some pipe dream you are 10-15 years too late pursuing. Fine get a PPL and see how much cash just that can suck out of your family's savings (you will be amazed at how GBP 150 an hour in a crappy cessna eats cash that could be put towards yours kids futures).

Frankly it is unlikely you will ever make a "living wage" even if you land a job as a TP First officer. Wake up and smell the coffee, thats the reality. :ok:

[SVoa]

Unless you have VERY VERY good connections in some airline, and when I mean very good, I mean the good that guarantees you a job as soon as you finish training, then DO NOT DO IT! You must be insane even thinking about it...

Ask yourself these 3 questions:

1. Do I have good connections in some airline?

2. Do I have a laaaarge amount of money just sitting around?

3. If I decided to do it and then can't find a job, will I have even more money sitting around to go do a type rating?

If you answer NO, to all of these 3 questions, then I would HONESTLY, SINCERELY and TRULY suggest that you do not even think about this again.. Because you WILL destroy your life, and your families...:=

[talkpedlar]

..based on your exiaiting personal circumstances I would respectfully suggest that this is the time for you to be cautious..in fact very cautious. The job market is currently exremely difficult..and could get a good deal worse. Why weigh yourself down with huge debt and maybe even jeopardise what you've already worked long and hard for?

You could of course go for your PPL and see how you feel then..

Good luck all the same.... sorry to rain on your parade

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

Madness. Airlines are going bust all over the place and pay for newbies has plummeted. Do not expose your kids to the misery of it all.


It really isn't worth it.


WWW

[Luke SkyToddler]

Got to agree with other posters on here, don't do it

There's good money to be made at the end of a 40 year career in this business but realistically if you're 40 already and looking at something like an ATR F/O as the starting option, you've only got 20 years to make a career out of it, and on turboprop F/O wages it will take a bloody decade to even clear the training debts and get back to zero, you're lining yourself up fair and square to be broke or at least having money worries all your life including your retirement. And that's without taking the kids' future needs into consideration.

The amount of focus and sacrifice that's required to get into this business is hard enough in your twenties when you've got no other commitments, it's damn near insurmountable when you've got a family to think about. Yes it's cool to fly airliners - sometimes - but trust me, it's not so cool that I wouldn't turn my back on it in a heartbeat if it meant jeopardizing my kids' future options

[fanda78]

Someone, some time ago told me this:

Flying will empty your wallet,
Flying will empty your bed
FLYING WILL FILL YOUR LIFE!

I did not believe him then:ugh: but I do now :cool:

I have just finished modular CPL, SEP, MEP, IR whilst in full time job and searching for first flying job.
Since start of training I've got divorced, changed job, been unemployed for five month, had to move for new job from Stansted to East Midlands and so far had no answer for single application.

But you know what? I would do it again...:ok:

[corsair]

I started flying young but struggled with lack of funding. Same old story. Eventually qualified but ended up out of flying for a while. Came back to it though in my mid forties and actually got my first job. Not an airline job though. So the pay is derisory to the point where my wife subsidises me.

While it is true that inexperienced pilots over forty do go onto the likes of Aer Arann and for Air Contractors. They are the exception and usually have funded their own TR. SVoa mentioned good contacts, in Ireland it's the only way but no guarantees.

Another issue with your age is that you will struggle with the exams. That applies all the way through the experience right through getting your TR. You will always be a bit behind all the young pups. Same with the flying. It just takes that bit longer to learn everything and then re-learn it when you forget.

When I came back to flying even with previous experience of a CPL/Multi/IR and nearly 400 hours. I couldn't fly straight and level or turn or keep a heading. I persevered and when I flew my CPL renewal flight test. I was so convinced that I had failed that walking across the ramp afterwards. I was considering my options away for flying. When the Examiner said I had passed, I was almost casting doubts on his judgement. However he was right as it turned out. I am damm good:cool: But even with all that experience it was hard to get it back.

Anyway my point is that you WILL struggle. There's no doubt about that.

But as others have said if you really want it. Go for it, but have no illusions. Also make sure your wife has no illusions either. My wife no longer has any, let me tell you.

But one thing, you will enjoy the flying. No doubt about that. But is it enough?

[truckflyer]

"corsair"

I do not agree with your points about struggling with the exams, as in my class doing ATPL's, the older guys had all the best pass rates, and they was 50,43 and 41, all had averages above 95%, while the younger guys where I was did not get that good. All first time passes on CPL/ME/IR also.

However yes, things takes a little longer time, so I agree with this. So you have to prepare yourself that bit more!

Because no flying experience at all, I would say at least try PPL first, because you might discover you don't enjoy flying after PPL, so why worry about all the rest in advance!

There are various levels of career you could choose, like going into instructing, which will be an "easier" path! Still not easy to get a job with that either, and pay is very bad!

[triplese7en]

I believe that you will be taking a massive liberty with your children's future. Don't do it.

[119.35]

As all have said, you need to factor in self funding a type rating and subsidising a poor initial wage - that is, if you are even lucky enough to get a job within a couple of years of finishing. Don't be fooled into thinking that getting a job on a TP or freight is any easier, despite what schools tell you. Competition for all entry level jobs is fierce and someone in their 20s is probably in a better position to sell their soul / grandmother and probably both to secure their first job than someone with a young family and commitments.

Don't under estimate the pressure and strain circa 2 yrs of training will put on your relationship and family life - eating, breathing and sleeping 'flying' is hard with a wife and family. I agree that the theory exams may not be any harder for you once you get over the going back to school mentality that is needed. But the flying at IR level does not come as naturally as it does to the 20 something 'pups' that someone said.

There is no denying that it would be an extremely tough journey for you and without almost guaranteed employment up your sleeve, I wouldn't subject yourself or your family to it. I really wish I could say something different.

[fade to grey]

You have left it a bit late. I'd never belittle your dream - but the best you can probably expect is a regional job, where the pay barely rewards the cash you have put in already.

Don't say pay doesn't count because a year down the line it sure as hell would...

[WhiskyTangoFoxtrott]

Trayman,

I'm in a similar position to you except I have a PPL an the funds for modular. I looked at cadet schemes and integrated but to be honest, they're not worth it to me. Even with the 'pseudo promise' of a job.

I would do your PPL and try and apply your experiences of it to a commercial operation and see if you still want to go ahead; I know I do.

The way I see it:
-If I stop chasing the dream after my hour building and ATPL theory, I'll have hours I would have paid for anyway and greater knowledge.
-If I stop chasing the dream after my CPL, I'll have hours (slightly more expensive ones) that I would have paid for anyway and be a better, more qualified GA pilot.
-If I stop chasing the dream after my IR, I'll have hours I probably wouldn't have bothered paying for, but I'll be an even more experienced GA pilot with some privileges to suit. I would have wasted no more money than my mate did a few years ago trashing his motorbike at a track day!

I've been plodding along on this journey for 2 years now and have had a good time; I don't have great expectations, but who knows where it will lead.

So my advice to you is; do you really want to? If you do - get stuck in, take it one step at a time, you're a long time dead my friend.

[truckflyer]

Believe me after you have finished it all, GA flying becomes a hassle, because you not sure where you will need money next!

That is the sad thing after doing all the training, which is fun, do you spend money on sim training? do you save for TR? Do you do FIC? So many questions after, than you get the renewals, number one is fine, but as time goes, you need to think every step what is good to spend money on!

I am 42 myself, and finished 12 months ago, not a sniff at a job!

Doing ATPL theory, requires a lot of work, I did full time, 6 hours at school + 4 - 5 hours at home, 5 to 6 days a week for 6 months, distance learning will take more time, which you don't have.

Doing modular, which is the only economical way, will take you around 18 to 24 months, if you manage to be really hard working.

So it is not just about the money, do you have the time to spare? Do you have 8 to 10 hours of your day, that you can spend on studying for 6 months?

[WhiskyTangoFoxtrott]

Sorry to hear that Truckflyer, and indeed time is ticking!

Probably best leave the IR until happier days maybe. The rest is still worth it IMO if it's what you want to do.

[KAISERSOZE]

Good evening

[Bealzebub]

we will have a 25 years carrier in the aviation industry. I think it's enough...

You might also give some consideration to the fact that any pilots licence has no validity at all without a current valid (in this case) class 1 medical certificate. That certificate requires annual renewal. The medical attrition rate is an increasingly steepening curve with age.

[KAISERSOZE]

And one more thing,
Before to go further, and even thinking of going futher , do your class 1 medical examination (around 400€ WELCOME !!! :})

[taybird]

I'm just coming up to 37, completed ATPL Theory last year (12 months distance learning). I have a full time job, and am presently working on my CPL as a modular course on weekends. My short term aims are to go into instructing, which I am open minded enough to accept might be medium or even long term. But in the immediate future my career is non-aviation, and the training is part time to minimise the risks. I'm lucky in that I have the PPL and the hours already.

Much of the advice given already makes sense. Get your medical, do your PPL, see if it really does turn you on. See also how long it takes you to assimilate new concepts for both the theory and the flying. But with your commitments I wouldn't recommend leaving your current job or risking big debt unless you really really have to do it with your heart and soul. Even then, only do it if you know you have a solid back-up plan.

My decision to do it was a cumulative process where the need to do it grew over several years until I realised if I didn't try I wouldn't be able to look the 50 year old me in the eye. It wasn't on a whim, or on impulse, but there was a tipping point when the decision was made. If you are in that place, you'll know what's right for you. If not, as others say, get a PPL, buy a share in something that floats your boat, and enjoy flying for the sheer joy of the challenge and freedom of flight itself. You won't regret it.

[Trayman]

Wow! Thanks everyone for you input. Talk about bursting my bubble.. seriously I really appreciate all your views, even you 'grass strip basher'.
In terms of what I think the reality is, I will probably take the middle ground here as somewhere near the truth. On the positive side I have had one of the flight schools here telling me that the worse case scenario would be that I could earn 6k a month as an instructor and of course on the negative but probably realistic side I have had all of your comments.
It has certainly been a reality check to ask you guys your views. I value the feedback from 'corsair' on my age being a factor in my ability to learn as quick as the kids.
So the dream is over but I will go and do my PPL and medical and just enjoy it:{
Thanks again folks and happy flying.:D

[truckflyer]

"WhiskyTangoFoxtrott" - I already done my IR, and done first renewal in the sim, which is the affordable renewal, now time and money starts counting.

Next 12 months need to stay current for licence renewal + IR renewal in aircraft with in 12 months. Happy days, if no job before that!

"Trayman" - Your flight school told you worst case scenario you could earn 6k a month as an instructor? (You mean £6000 a month as an instructor?)

I will await your answer, in case you have mistype d something before commenting further!

If that was worst case scenario, holy crap I would be running to get my FI rating! Not sure what school is going to pay that kind of salary as an instructor, but I would be glad to hear!

The flying part will take a little more time, with guys of our age, this I have seen from own experiences, and some of my mates. Than again, I have seen younger guys also spending more time. Instructor salary, will barely give you food on the table, from what I have seen of my mates!

Also comes in some regulations, from passing last ATPL theory exams, you need to complete CPL and IR within 3 years, so you can't postpone things indefinite. After 3 years you have to redo all your ATPL exams again, that would not be something I would ever let happen!

To become an instructor, you need CPL, and most ATPL exams, however you do not need an IR rating.
But to apply for a with airlines / taxi / bizjet job you need to have a valid IR rating and class 1 medical!

Your private life will suffer, friends will get bored with you, wife will want to divorce you, it is a high price to pay, but some of us will do anything for who we love!

[Luke SkyToddler]

6K a month clear, as an instructor??!! That would equal well over 100 grand a year pre tax. I literally didn't earn 10% of that amount in my instructing days and I don't think the market has changed that much since ...

Please tell me where that school might be, because I'll walk away from my A330 and go and work there myself.

[WhiskyTangoFoxtrott]

Trayman, you mean 6K p.a. right?

Instructing's something worth considering between CPL and IR; but I'll only do it on a part time basis whilst I work in my current job.

[Trayman]

Just to be clear, I was told that if I completed the training and didn't gain employment through the likes of Aer Arann or one of the Cargo companies I could earn 6 thousand euro a month as a flight instructor.
I don't particularly want to name the company, however there are only 3 in Ireland..
I can assure you Taybird that this was no whim or impulse, it's been eating away at me for many many years and obviously my big regret is that I didn't run with it when I was a younger man.:ugh:
I lived in the states for a year 5 years ago, I should have done it then for a fraction of the price being charged here.
Ce la vie

[KAISERSOZE]

6000€ a month is impossible as a FI.
I would say between 0 and 1300€.
For an ex 747 BA captain who has lost his medical and teach in a prestigious flight school, perhaps 6000€, but i don't think so, i would say half of it.
In some schools, you just fly (and teach) for free...

[truckflyer]

Well if they told you that pay as instructor, I would RUN AWAY from the as fast as possible, because they are a bunch of liars and con men!

Sure a few will agree with me on this one!

That would be more than any airline would be paying you for the first 10 years or so!:ugh:

[Globally Challenged]

6k a month - jesus is this some form of pyramid scheme instructing ???

[taybird]

Quote - I can assure you Taybird that this was no whim or impulse, it's been eating away at me for many many years and obviously my big regret is that I didn't run with it when I was a younger man.

Absolutely, so you'll know exactly what I mean. If you can minimise the risks to you and your family, and if you know that you won't forgive yourself for not trying, I say go for it. But do have your eyes wide open...

On that note, €6k per month seems awfully high. I would expect that to be more likely to be an annual take-home.

If you do decide to go for it, welcome to the craziness! And the very best of luck to you. Anyone who makes it will need that in addition to the hard work, blood, sweat and tears.

[Grass strip basher]

Utter utter madness.... 6,000 a month.... they are playing you like a sucker. 6,000 a year is more reasonable. I thought it was a typo when you wrote it! That you didn't question it/laugh in their faces at the time tells me that you have a SERIOUS amount of research to do about the industry before you even contemplate putting your marriage and kids financial well being at risk. :rolleyes:
I am not trying to be rude but seriously do some proper research as to what you might ultimately get paid IF (and its a big IF) you are one of the maybe 10-15% over 40s that ends up landing a job. Take debt repayment cost, mortgages costs etc off that and see if you have enough money to feed your kids....

[Trayman]

Grass strip basher, no one is playing me like a sucker. I am doing my research by coming on forums like this and assessing the state of play.
Why would I question there figures, two weeks ago I new very little about the industry..but I am learning fast!
What saddens me is that there are plenty of kids out there who will not ask the hard questions and will be sucked in by these schools and the promise of jobs.
Although people talk about the schools being cynical, there are a number of negative posts on this forum to wannabes like me which are just copied and pasted as a response to someone wanting to get into the industry. That stinks of a 'closed shop' and a 'jobs for the boys' mentality. That doesn't help someone make an informed decision either.
Anyway maybe you didn't see my earlier post but having taken advice from people on here and elsewhere I realise that even though I could go ahead and do it, I would never get the opportunity to pay 100k back. (100k that could go to my kids future.)
Instead, I am just going to do my PPL and enjoy it. (I might even go over to the U.S. for a month and do it.) You never know what might happen down the road..
Happy flying.:)

[Parson]

GSB,

As a matter of interest, where did you get your stats for over 40s?

[truckflyer]

There will be a few "negative posts", specially when such lies like the 6000 a month for an instructor as the worst case scenario.

I would believe there would be some anger from the community towards such a school that would give you such information, not towards you, to be honest you could probably not know better at that moment.

However visiting some of the other places in these forums like Terms and Endearment, where you will very easy get an idea of the conditions faced pilots today.

Having friends who have done the US route, it is honestly not going to help your with regards to CPL etc., for PPL it could be a good idea, because you might get it cheaper and faster over there. However CPL / IR from US has to be converted in Europe, before you can fly commercially in Europe. So you will need to do the whole ATPL process again, and my friend who was similar age, spent much more time on his conversion, he might as well have skipped all the US training, because he did not save much in the end, if any at all.

With US CPL licence, you can only fly US registered aircraft, and they are hard to find in Europe/UK - at least where somebody with low experience will be able to get work with.

You should not take some of the attacks personally at you, you asked for answers, and most people have been very honest with their answers to you, without decorating it.

Myself I completed my training, spent the money for training, had a young family, but also had a small business I was able run at the same time. So it depends very much on your personal circumstances. I had the money, it has been hard times, but I have no regrets of doing it! Sure I could have probably have spent the money on something more fun, and had less worries over those years, and the years to come - but if we don't try we will never know.

I do agree that maybe you should have felt a small alarm bell when the figure 6000 a month as an instructor was mentioned, I mean if you look around in today's society, there are not many jobs that will pay you that kind of salary!

I do not feel any sympathy for a school who have told you this, and it would be fair to warn other's about what school this is, because to be honest it is some of the biggest BS I have heard.

It is very much a closed shop at the moment to get in, unless you have money to pay your way inside, it is the part many of us dislike, specially us standing on the outside!

Now where did you get the figure 100K from?
Your figures seems to becoming from out of a lottery bowl! You are looking at half of that amount, from zero to hero, probably 65K if you include TR.

Enjoy your PPL and some GA flying first, a friend of mine over 50, did CPL and FIC - chose not to do his IR, and does instructing when he can for the fun of it. So there are many ways into aviation, but regardless of any of this, would be class 1 medical before you think any further and then your PPL.

[Trayman]

Thanks truckflyer for the advice re training in the U.S. However, I only intend to do my PPL there.
I don't take any comments here personally?? I appreciate every bit of advice I have received (as I have said repeatedly!)
My figure of 100k euro comes from the 60k to get yourself from zero to hero, 20k + to get your ratings for a particular jet/tp whatever and another 20k to live on during the year/year an half of training.
Even if this figure is way off whack, how much does it cost to maintain them in the following years you don't have a job..?
As you said "you had the money" most people don't!

[embryonic]

Hi trayman ,

I think people will have their own opinions on this one, based on their own personal experiences. Those that have succeeded and have a flying job will say, yeah go ahead , its a long hard commitment but worth the sacrifice and worth the gamble. There are those on the other hand ( trying for years, washed out and will always be chasing the dream) that may advise you to hang on to your hard earned cash as its not worth the hassle and financial burden.

I myself have experienced both sides of the coin. I've spent years chasing the dream, knocking on doors and experienced the lows of unemployment. I've also lived the dream having been 'lucky' enough to land a copilot position on a biz jet. Unfortunately the latter was short lived due to recession and now find myself in the same place I started, unemployed and not a cent to my name. I now find myself on the wrong side of 40 and am unsure of my future flying career.
It certainly isnt for the fainthearted. If you have the funds and are willing to gamble it ,can put down what you can afford to lose ,then go ahead and do it. If not, and you have to borrow from a bank ,then dont.

It certainly has been one hell of a ride and a real life experience.

Pm me at any time.....

[truckflyer]

First year does not cost much to maintain, but the longer you are outside the more it will take.

I would guess probably around £3000 - £5000, when you start on your second year.

But the problem after the training, is where do you want to spend your money, what will be the best next step!
Feel free to PM me also anytime.

Nothing is impossible! But it ain't going to be easy!

[stuckgear]

First off I have to applaud trayman in coming on here and asking the questions he has. Essentially he is looking for verification of what the FTO's are doing to 'sell the dream'.

That alone is a good move for trayman and highlights what many should have done before parting with their futures for smoke and mirrors.

Secondly, it is interesting that the FTO's are still pushing this line of pilot shortage, demand for pilots etc. and that claim of earning 6k per month as a flight instructor is just the icing on the bull$hit cake.

This is exactly where FTO's keep up the supply of lambs to the slaughter. The dream of wafting through a terminal in some far off exotic land with a bevvy of beautiful hosties hanging off your arm, all suave and sophisticated in your ray bans. and if you dint make huge and become the hot shot of Big Airlines, you can always make bank teaching other wannabes.

This kind of marketing and sales pitch is bordering on criminal.

good for trayman for wanting to find out the truth.

[Bealzebub]

Flight training organisations, are in the business of selling flight training. Whatever they or their customers believe or want to believe about what happens after that contract has been fulfilled is matter for them.

People can be very prone to hear what they want to hear, and simply because it is re-hashed on here doesn't necessarily make it a fact.

There is no end of advice and comment (on these forums alone) for anybody thinking of embarking on this career. However, it doesn't matter what you say, or how many times you say it, if it doesn't fit in with what some individuals want to hear, then you might as well whistle in the wind!

If an FTO sells you something and fails to deliver, then I have every sympathy. However if they or you express an opinion, statement, wishlist, or rose tinted dream of pasteurs old and new, then it is not a part of the contract. It is as simple as that.

Read the contract, and know what it is you are actually buying.

[stuckgear]

sage words Bealzebub,

Caveat emptor applies with FTO's as much as anywhere else

[Jazzchill]

Get your PPL, enjoy the flying and forget the rest. I was lucky to start my career some 11 years ago. If my son would ask my opinion towards a career in aviation, I would do EVERYTHING I could to make him change his mind. I've seen guys, much younger than you are and with the money to spare, making a mess of their lives just by chasing the dream.

I really hate to burst your bubble, and believe me, the harsh replies on this forum do not come from an 'old boys network' mentality, they are honest and to the point.
In your situation, the door to a good career in aviation is shut. The door to hours of enjoyable flying on a PPL is wide open. Have fun! :ok: