Line quality, broadband

[BOAC]

I have a DOWN 'Noise Margin', which I assume is 'SNR', on my router of a normally steady 6dB, but occasionally down to 4 (again this morning for a while) and I am getting the expected rubbish sync. I have a 'long line length' with an attenuation of a steady 48dB DOWN. Interestingly IE seems to deliver better PPRune browsing than FF

I have a splitter plate on the NT5. What else can I do to improve the 'SNR'? Would a line change at the exchange help?

PS I do NOT need to know I should move:ugh:

[Milo Minderbinder]

you could try asking BT for an i-Plate
Thats a faceplate which fits over the master socket and isolates the bell wire (which can act as an antenna and relay noise)
Its clutching at straws, but other than get BT to properly check the line theres not a lot you can do - except the usual of change the filters and maybe a new router
Which make / model of modem router have you got?

[mixture]

I have a 'long line length'

There's your problem sir.

Unfortunately with a long line, all bets are off as to what sort of service you'll get. I know people with long lines who are very lucky to be able to get 512k.

Best you can try to do is get your ADSL provider to escalate your problem to the "Long Line Team" at Openreach.

[BOAC]

you could try asking BT for an i-Plate - been there, done that, got the T-shirtI have a splitter plate on the NT5

Mixture, the attenuation is not actually bad for the line length (4300m), but is there anything I can look at for the noise margin?

[Milo Minderbinder]

Some routers seem to be more tolerant on noise than others. For instance the BT Business Hubs (branded as 2-Wire) are awful
What are you using at present? Also who is your service provider? BT or someone else?

There are tricks you can play on the router
Changing the MTU is one. BT used to say that a setting of 1458 was best in the old days of ADSL, but that became irrelevant with ADSL 2 / ADSL+

However it could be worth a try on a noisy line
Set the MTU on the router to 1458 and see what happens. You could try pushing it even lower to see what happens, but don't drop below 1400
There used to be a BT script file available for download which would also set the MTU of the network port of the PC to 1458 (so that all balanced) but I've not seen it for a while. I no longer have a copy (it dated from Win98 days...)

[mixture]

There used to be a BT script file available for download which would also set the MTU of the network port of the PC to 1458 (so that all balanced) but I've not seen it for a while. I no longer have a copy (it dated from Win98 days...)

You need a script from BT to change the MTU of your PC milo ? :p

[Milo Minderbinder]

No, it was jut an easy fix that didn't need explaining or hand holding
Something you could give to customers without risking them doing something stupid

Customers and registry edits don't go together...

[BOAC]

I'm happy with registry changes for MTU, but I don't think I can do anything wth the router. All I have as settings I can adjust are
PCR/SCR/MBS 4000/4000/10.

I'll Google that lot to see what they mean. The router is a 3Com (there's a clue!) Office Connect. It will be replaced if I ever get the 40Mb wirelss network in place here.

The line has changed from BT ADSL2 to LLU - would that prompt a change in PC MTU (which I have not done)?

EDIT: Put my glasses on and found the MTU setting - a standard 1492 - does that need to change with LLU?

EDIT2: Found 1432 on a Google hit for an LLU line and that does seem to have improved connectivity slightly. Stupid question - do I need to match that on the PC?


It is again PPRune which is really slow - better in IE.

[Milo Minderbinder]

the theorists all say it helps if the MTU settings match, so yes try changing the MTU in the registry

As to the change to LLU - it should still be running on ADSl2 / or ADSL+. More important is who the actual ISP is and whether you are using PPPoE or PPPoA

[BOAC]

I'll speak to the ISP rather then fill the forum with my router details, and hack the MTU in the meantime to see. Thanks

[mixture]

I'll speak to the ISP rather then fill the forum with my router details

Good call, especailly as they can login to the DSLAM at the exchange and do some troubleshooting whilst you are on the phone.

[Mr Optimistic]

Are you on a fixed line speed ? At that attenuation 6db should give you 4000 down load plus. Presume you have tried the test socket. On the variable adslmax system the download speed will adjust to a level which gives 6db (normally) which will then trail down a bit after dark as am radio interference kicks in. So its the download speed which is the variable not the SNR. On wiring, its transmission line theory and you don't watch an impedance mismath anywhere on your wiring ( ie no tee junctions). The I Plate is only the same as cutting the orange ring wire anyway. Tried the solwise and adslnation sites ?

[Mr Optimistic]

Incidentally, altering the mtu is unlikely to help (your isp will advise optimum setting) but if you are not on AOL then 1500 is fine. Also the BT business hubs I have found to be good on my line (51db attenuation) holding on to below 3db snr. You can pick them up cheap on ebay and then unlock them (single ssid version much prefered). Different routers report differing attenuations, BT hub says 51 db for me, dlink said 55 db.+ For comparison, I get between 3800 and 4300 -ish download syncs at 6db snr but with the odd overnight retrains.

[B Fraser]

BOAC - Are you connected to the primary socket and have you tried swapping the filter ? Send me a PM and I'll have a look when I'm back in Blighty....... if BAA can sweep a few flakes off the runway.

[BOAC]

Router into the ADSL socket on a splitter plate. My ISP tells me (he had never heard of an ADSL splitter plate or an I-Plate!) that I still have to plug into the master socket direct to check to see if the CRC errors can be reduced.

I thought the ADSL socket WAS direct to the master but he sounded very confused! Maybe I am!

[Mr Optimistic]

If you have a modern face plate, the bottom bit pulls out. In doing so you also take all the other bits of kit out with it so it isolates the input line from the rest of your wiring and appliances. Think it is called an NES 5 socket or something (which you may or may not have). The I Plate is just a way of isolating the 'third' (orange) wire, which isn't needed these days and can unbalance the signal lines and make them more susceptible to noise - but only as induced on the internal wiring. So first thing is to see what the 'raw' signal is like and to see if it differs markedly from what you see normally. If so there is scope to improve your internal wiring.

Welcome to adslnation.com - UK telephone extension wiring (http://www.adslnation.com/support/extensions.php)

[BOAC]

I found a guy in the ISP who

1) Seems to understand the problem

2) Knows what a splitter plate/I-Plate is (they call it an SSFP)

3) Has English as his native tongue.

A phone line test indicates a 'possible' line problem. We are monitoring overnight with the phones unplugged, and a filter on the router line into the MS - and he has promised to schedule a call tomorrow!

Looking at eliminating the router as a problem since the phone wiring seems to be 'innocent' and it might just be that I have a faulty 'SSFP'.

Bizarrely a test into the master socket (which should not be necessary with the 'SSFP') whacked my speed up from 3.8 to 4.9 and while giving me far less errors, they were still too high.

[Mr Optimistic]

Not sure I understand what a 'splitter' is. The I Plate is an additional piece of kit which I think you have to buy from BT. I have a NES 5 faceplate but no 'I Plate' as I simply didn't connect the orange wire : achieves the same thing. The better result from the test socket points to room for improvement in your internal arrangements (telephone circuitry, not the wife). Not sure how you know what level of errors is ok. I don't here, and one set of 'errors' (FES or some such thing) is purely because the line is interleaved and not 'fast'.

Incidentally, if you are on windows vista or later, all the web gossip seems to indicate that windows now does a fine job optimising settings (so no more Drtcp and similar tweaking tools). Unless your ISP says otherwise, I would set the router to mtu=1500 and leave windows alone.

[BOAC]

Mr O - the 'splitter' or SSFP or I-Plate does, I believe, do a bit more than you think ie it filters the phone socket at the NTE5 (ie 'splits') as well as isolating wire 3.

Anyway, things have moved on - internal wiring checks out fine - no difference in errors or speeds connected or not so the next step is to try another filter and find a mate with a spare ADSL router to swap out BEFORE I call BT out to find it is my router, and pay them the odd £100 for the fun of it.:mad:

[glad rag]

Was watching some programs last night and was experiencing drop outs, so got online with 3 different speedcheckers, speed at 21:30'ish averaged out at 3.1 http://www.skywise.tv/forum/Smileys/default/angry.gif just now at 08:30'ish 6.5 ................. http://www.skywise.tv/forum/Smileys/default/cry.gif

BT quote 7.5 max btw.

Brand New BT I-Plate - Interstitial Plate - ADSL: Amazon.co.uk: Amazon.co.uk:

gotta be worth a punt for £3.50...even if it only helps stabilise the line...

GR

PS this gets good write-ups.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B002TOKGL8/ref=asc_df_B002TOKGL86462755?smid=A3P5ROKL5A1OLE&tag=googlecouk06-21&linkCode=asn&creative=22206&creativeASIN=B002TOKGL8


Question, even at my lowish speeds would this help throughput as it's 10/100/1000 compared to the present 7 yr old 10/100 type?? It would be used primarily for a hard wired [cat6] connection to a sat receiver and a secondary [but don't tell them that :) ] home network.

[glad rag]

Not sure I understand what a 'splitter' is. The I Plate is an additional piece of kit which I think you have to buy from BT. I have a NES 5 faceplate but no 'I Plate' as I simply didn't connect the orange wire : achieves the same thing. The better result from the test socket (http://www.pprune.org/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=7003917&noquote=1#) points to room for improvement in your internal arrangements

Not too sure that isolating the bell line at the master socket on it's own is 100% the way to go ONLY socket] as any other bell lines around the property will be influenced by spurious emf and the filter, now disconnected, wont be able to screen any of those away down the BT plughole to presumably some earth someplace...

[BOAC]

gr - I have the 'splitter' or 'SSFP' which does the same but provides two sockets, one unfiltered direct to master for ADSL and one filtered for phone (wouldn't buy ANYTHING from BT given a choice.:)). About £6. Means in theory no filters required on other plugged ins but I have retained.

[mixture]

got online with 3 different speedcheckers

What speed checkers tell you should be taken wiht a large pinch of salt. They become increasingly more unreliable the higher up you go the speed scale (I've tested most of them on a machine with a 100Mb top-notch internet connection and the majority display erratic, inconsistent behaviour and display results far from the truth).

Therefore they are not particularly accurate at the best of times.


Question, even at my lowish speeds would this help throughput as it's 10/100/1000 compared to the present 7 yr old 10/100 type??

Are you serious ? You've hardly got anywhere near a 100Mb internet connection and yet you're looking at a gigabit switch ? I bet you don't even push enough packets round your local network to hit the buffers on a 100Mb switch.

Save your money for something else. Or if you want to spend money on a switch, go buy a decent managed 10/100 model. That will give you some extra knobs to tweak should you feel the need.

[BOAC]

gr -I forgot to mention that I think ALL the I-PLate does is 'remove' wire 3 at the master - you can save yourself that "£3.79" and do the job properly at all extensions with a pair of snips:)

[glad rag]

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Brand-New-BT-I-Plate-Interstitial/dp/B002QAO1GQ/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&m=A16080BR5E0JWQ&s=generic&qid=1328604000&sr=1-1

"If you have an ADSL service with each phone connected to a micro-filter then the bell-wire is completely redundant since a bell signal is generated in each micro-filter for the few phones which still need it. Now, unfortunately, this bell-wire tends to cause some degradation to the ADSL signal as it travels about your house. The Solwise solution to this problem would be to detach the front section of your master socket and disconnect the bell-wire(s) (from pin 3) and re-fit the faceplate. The BT solution is called the iPlate! This device places a filter on the bell-wire (which remember is not required!)."

50p or 10/- ?

[BOAC]

With the aforementioned excellent ISP man we have identified the router as the probable cause (swapped out to a borrowed one) so a new one is in the post. I still think the line is also not good, but I will wait and see.

[EGTE]

An I-plate and an SSFP (Service Specific Front Plate) are different things.

The I-plate fits on the NTE5 and then the normal single socket front plate fits on the front of an I-Plate. You then plug your filter into the socket as normal.
The newest NTE5s (marked "Openreach" instead of "BT") already contain the I-Plate gubbins so adding an I-Plate to one of those is a waste of time.

An SSFP simply replaces the standard front plate to the NTE5 and contains a filter. There are two sockets, one for the telephone and one for the router. Hence it is sometimes referred to as a "splitter" (but not by BT!)

[Mike-Bracknell]

Sorry for the late arrival on this thread. Bit of a pet subject for me.

Yes, the i-plate purely disconnects the bell wire (the 3rd internal wire in the housing wiring) as it's no longer needed and *can* provide interference which increases the noise, thus reduces the margin, and there go your sync speeds.

One thing we've not yet discussed BOAC is what sync speeds you actually DO get? e.g. with my loop attenuation (which I assume is an aggregate of the up and down loss) of 66dB and a noise margin of 5dB i'm currently syncing at 2870952 bps, and up at 446666 bps. That's about as good as i'm ever likely to get until Infinity.

Also, have you checked the sync speed at the master socket by removing the faceplate and connecting the router directly to the test socket? as this cuts out the rest of the house wiring from the equation so you can see what proportion of loss is from your house wiring and what's from the line to the house. e.g. I replaced my internal wiring with CAT5e and got an extra 1mbit/s :ok:

Cheers,
Mike.

[BOAC]

Thanks EGTE - 'splitter' it is then. Anyway, having 'restored' my setup (for MB from master(test) socket) to splitter, I have retained my 5'ish+ at the router/3'ish at the 'puter but I have started to get a few line errors again which I think points to a cheap E-Bay splitter:ugh:

New router winging its way here for the weekend I hope so more testing to do.

MB: Down Attenuation 48Db, Noise margin 6Db, line length 4600m, and LLU has definitely improved both up and down. Gone from 3.6/700 at Router to 5.5/1.1

Don't get too excited about Infinity - looking at your attenuation I guess you are 'long line'? 1500m is the max for the fabled 'superfast' (24Mb) and at 5km + you may see a dead donkey. Old technology, anachronistic - and a waste of the BDUK money, as BT emerge (surprise surprise) as the probable only 'bidders' for the dosh:mad:

[Mike-Bracknell]

LLU will just mean you're connected to a different DSLAM at the exchange, possibly with a different firmware level and chipset, which is interacting more favourably with your modem than the BT fujitsu kit.

Trust me re Infinity, since it was supposed to be made live here in Dec 2010, then March 2011, then Dec 2011, then March 2012, then Dec 2012, i'm holding out not much hope of it ever being here by the time I move house anyway! However, whilst i'm apparently 2.6km from the exchange as the crow flies, but 9.1km from it as the whoosh test proved the cable runs, and i'm only a few hundred metres away from a roadside cab, i'm seeing it as the only way to get semi-decent broadband in the technological wilderness that is Bracknell (ahem).

[B Fraser]

the i-plate purely disconnects the bell wire

No, it also filters out the noise picked up on your domestic wiring. You can indeed replicate the I Plate effect by cutting wires..... if you don't need any of your other sockets. Have a closer look and you will see some circuitry inside the device.

Remember that you will still need a microfilter at all sockets where there is a connection to a phone or device such as a Sky box.

BOAC, I don't think BT have many customers 5km from their nearest cabinet. FTTC is delivering a vastly improved service over the long line copper and BT recently announced that the up to 20Mb service will become up to 40Mb. Good luck with your new router but please allow 48hrs for the exchange equipment to notice and respond with a revised speed (hopefully better).

[BOAC]

i'm apparently 2.6km from the exchange as the crow flies, but 9.1km from it as the whoosh test proved the cable runs, and i'm only a few hundred metres away from a roadside cab, i'm seeing it as the only way to get semi-decent broadband in the technological wilderness that is Bracknell (ahem). - as I say, don't get excited! In urban areas you stand a reasonable chance of getting your cabinet 'enabled', but in rural areas not. BT appear to be hitting about 40% of rural cabinets on an 'enabled' exchange BT skipping up to 60% of cabinets in fibre rollout | News | PC Pro (http://www.pcpro.co.uk/news/365368/bt-skipping-up-to-60-of-cabinets-in-fibre-rollout). Add to that the announcement by the CEO of Openreach that those 'lucky enough' to get Infnity will NOT be upgraded by BT to FTTP when available BT will not upgrade FTTC deployments with FTTP technology (http://www.telegeography.com/products/commsupdate/articles/2010/11/26/bt-will-not-upgrade-fttc-deployments-with-fttp-technology/) and you may get a taste for it.

If you follow the sad tale of Ewhurst (Surrey, who were 'gazumped' by BT) Ewhurst Community Broadband (http://www.ewhurst-broadband.org.uk/) there, their first 'Infinity' cabinet has FTTC connections for 100 pairs to match a cabinet which serves 450 pairs, so not even the "40% of cabinet subscribers" will all get it (looks like 22% of 40%). To add to the joy, their lobbying power has been so successful that they will probably be the only 'bidder' for most of the BDUK £530 mill (and the next £300mill).

[B Fraser]

BOAC, that news item is 15 months old, things have moved on since November 2010.

Regarding the 450 pair cabinet, you also need to consider how many subscribers there are (hint, less than 450) and of that lower number, what percentage want broadband and of that percentage, what will the take-up be of FTTC.

I'm sure that BT could provide enough fibre to the cabinet for every subscriber just in case they wanted it but would you be willing to pay your share of the cost either through your bill or taxation ? I think not.

[Ancient Observer]

I thought I knew what I had, but reading this lot leaves me very confused!
A while ago I had a long running battle with BT about the fact that my Speed had dropped to zero. (from about 4 - 6 mbps)
Lots of conversations with lots of Indian call centre workers, remote operation of my pc and various drop-in engineers got me nowhere.
Letter to BT CEO, and letter to mate who works in BT got someone's attention, and the delights of an English-speaking "case manager" who promised to stay with my case until it was resolved. (Which he did).
The drop-in engineers changed to another breed of drop-in engineer, (one of whom told interesting BT stories about the BT hierarchy and its broadband connections). This new breed said they knew more about broadband than the other ones.
One of them put in an "Openreach ADSL v1.0" socket about 24 inches from where the main BT line pops out of the ground, and said that thereafter I would not need ADSL filters anywhere in the house anymore.
That, plus lots of other mucking about by BT engineers, both here, and at the 1km away cabinet, and at the 1.8km main BT "shed" got me back to my old 4-6.
..........but this thread has made me terribly confused.

[BOAC]

that news item is 15 months old, - just under 12, actuallyRegarding the 450 pair cabinet, you also need to consider how many subscribers there are (hint, less than 450) 450 actually

- and of that lower number, what percentage want broadband and of that percentage, what will the take-up be of FTTC. - Agreed, and as a sensible commercial decision based on likely uptake at the cost of the Infinity package - no-one disputes it, but
a) learned opinion there says they will need another cabinet with associated 2-way ducting to go above the current 100 - should the demand arise - as there is not enough room in the new small cabinet for the extra racks etc, hence significant costs/planning issues, not forgetting, of course, that 100% coverage of HSB is 'promised' by Surrey CC.
b) one should not forget that the vast majority of the British unwashed (MB, of course, excused) believe BT will be dropping meteorites into THEIR gardens soon, so expectation > realisation?

[glad rag]

Just done another BT speed check some days after fitting i plate. Whilst overall [first BT speed check/test] was short on the values derived from internet sourced speed checkers, the second BT speed/test showed a green bar value of 99.5% of obtainable value, which is a gain from the previous BT test values obtained before.fitting the i plate.

So my conclusion is that on my shortish connection [<500m including a bloody overhead!] whilst the speed is a nominal 6.5M with the i plate fitted I'm getting more correct data to the router thus useable values have increased. Slightly.

No forecast of Infinity, probably due to the same overhead.

cheers all and happy surfing,

gr.

[B Fraser]

Always do a speed check when your wireless is disabled and you have an ethernet connection to your router which in turn is on your primary socket. I'm on a wireless connection at the moment and have an effective download speed of 5.5Mb whereas the figure is 7.5Mb for a wired connection. There is about 3 feet of sandstone between me and the router so I can't complain. Not bad for a BT Hub version 1.0 ;)

[BOAC]

gr - 'Speed tests' in themselves are a bit of a waste of time, although useful indicators - there are so many things that can bring the 'perceived' speed down, including your PC performance/modem-router/memory size etc. The only real 'fact' is the speed delivered to your router and then it is up to you to try and dribble that into your network.

What exactly is an 'overhead'? There is significant pressure to get restrictions on using 'overhead' delivery relaxed which MIGHT happen this year if OFCOM and HMG get their fingers out of their ****.and stop protecting 'last generation access'.

Extract from 'Planning' Dec 11

"Government consults on lifting overhead broadband line restrictions

By Mark Wilding Friday, 02 December 2011
Proposals to lift restrictions on installing overhead broadband lines are being consulted on by ministers.

The government said the proposals are intended to reduce the cost of rolling out broadband across the country and create the "best superfast broadband network in Europe" by 2015. Currently, broadband lines must be buried underground unless there is no viable alternative.

Ministers have stressed that lines will only be installed where existing infrastructure cannot be shared. Planning permission will also still be required in national parks, areas of outstanding natural beauty and sites of special scientific interest.

But the plans have caused concern in some quarters. Tony Burton, director at charity Civic Voice, warned that the government risks alienating the public in a mistaken attempt to cut red tape.

He said: "We’re disappointed by the decision to look at lifting what we call safeguards and the government calls restrictions. We see no evidence that there are unnecessary restrictions that exist.

"No-one is questioning the benefits that broadband can bring, but we want Broadband Britain to be beautiful as well. That will only happen if we are careful about introducing the infrastructure to support it."

The consultation closes on 21 February 2012."

[B Fraser]

The overhead is a technical term within the industry to describe telegraph poles. It's not immediately obvious to an outsider.

When the next "here today gone tomorrow" bunch of cowboys set up Wondercom who install a mast outside your front door and run some wires above your property to get from the roadside to a customer backing onto your property then you can thank OFCOM and HMG (for) get(ting) their fingers out of their ****.

Reluctance on behalf of HMG is largely driven by what has gone before. No doubt you will recall that the cable TV companies did such a wonderful job in hiring the cheapest available contractors for installing their network. Besides the damage to water pipes, gas mains, pavements etc. they chopped through a number of tree roots, killing many in the process. They quickly became known as squirrels. as what do they have in common ?

They both f@ck up trees.

[mixture]

No doubt you will recall that the cable TV companies did such a wonderful job in hiring the cheapest available contractors for installing their network.

I can tell you quite confidently that civils contractors are not particularly "cheap" these days. :cool:

[B Fraser]

I don't doubt you however sub-contracting and further sub-contracting is still common. One company recently did a spot check found that their outsourced field engineering team was being fulfilled in part by Bulgarian shop fitters who in the current downturn, were doing whatever work they could get.

[mixture]

Not sure what you've got against good, decent contractors ? Contractors are a good way to keep market-rates down. There is very little benefit for companies to do their own in-house civils.

[B Fraser]

The good ones, absolutely nothing at all. There is one company in London who are so good that they have a pledge that each error found by the client means x % off the invoice. They are doing very well and good luck to them.

Sadly, we still have utilities who contract out and get this

http://lh5.ggpht.com/_8GlWYXT9zzg/TUCyAry-piI/AAAAAAAAF4A/DRjKdIIIon4/DSCF9514%5B3%5D.jpg

[Enecosse]

I have the same problem, live in the sticks with a long line, about 8k. I found that I got a reasonable result using a face plate (already mentioned) and a Thomson SpeedTouch router, a 585 I think.
I did a bunch of research when trying to get the broadband working and found that this router was being used in Oz with some success, obviously long lines there!
I think someone already mentioned some router chipsets are better than others. I think (might of been binned) I have the SpeedTouch modem (not router) at home which I used initially to test the chipset. If you want it I can send, but not home until mid March.
We (the village) are going from probably one of the slowest to one of the fastest places in the country later this year with a wirless link to a fibre optic backhaul into the BT main network and some 20Mbs+ DSL, courtesy of some grant funding.

[glad rag]

Hi BAOC- this latest test was done using the "Official" BT speed tester, from their webby, results show the fibs that the main online checkers tell......as nothing had been changed system wise I think the result stands in good stead compared to others.

cheers

gr