Virgin v CX Staff Travel

[Ohm Sweet Ohm]

Check out Virgins staff travel package for its Pilots and FA's

After 1 year service you get 7 free tickets a year to give to anyone on your companions list, they do not have to be family.

After 5 years service you and companions entitled to upper class if empty seat and you can get them confirmed if flight open.

Spouse can travel anytime without you but companions must travel with employee. If employee is operating flight and companion does not get on the flight due to it being full, they may travel on next flight.

You can have 7 companions listed at all times however employee and spouse priority is higher.

After 5 years you're also entitled to airport lounges as ID.

Dress code - casual jeans allowed and trainers if clean no ripped clothes or shorts or t-shirts or vests.

Last but not least their ID tickets are much cheaper!

[ETOPS240]

All well and good. Let's enjoy a brief digression, if we may;

Let us compare:

VS vs CX job security.. VS enjoy one of the industries worst track records. CX enjoy one of the best.

VS vs CX pay.. Less than year 1 locally employed cadet SO. It continues to remain substantially below, all the way through the pay scales.

VS vs CX rosters.. Substantially worse than CX in most eyes.

VS vs CX time to command.. About on parity. The difference being the 8+ years airline experience you tend to need before joining VS, and the fact that CX will actually exist, in the coming decades.

Agreed, though; VS enjoy decent staff travel. Cheaper than CX, too. Out of curiosity, with what other carriers do they enjoy such benefits?

Swings and roundabouts. VS was a good act, back when the beard was in control. Now, it is an utter ****show, going nowhere, being demolished from within, with useless management, poor results, uncertain future, having missed out their Damocles thread, BMI slots. A niche service which is neither Loco nor Premium, whereby the 'sexy' image has sadly run its course.

[Ohm Sweet Ohm]

The sad fact is CX could easily do the same as VS with staff travel at little or no extra cost to them but I guess they just prefer to say "Cannot" :ugh:

[Cpt. Underpants]

Cathay "cannot" as a result of abuse of the staff travel system by some local employees (fraud).

Even I was approached by a local I knew who asked if I could add him (for a consideration) to my travel scheme.

As usual, EVERYONE is penalized by the actions of the few, really unfair.

[Ohm Sweet Ohm]

Cpt. Underpants,

Do you think this does not go on within VS? The point is that VS don't give a sh*t. My buddy with them says yes they know that happens but the numbers who do it are small and at the end of the day Virgin don't really care as it's too petty for them to bother about.

In their view its a benefit and the staff can do with it as they wish. No matter what benefit you give people will always find a way of abusing it.

My wife and I have no alive parents and I once asked Cathay could we add our helper as we have 3 kids and it would be a great help if she came with us when we went back home, on holiday etc. The answer from BN was "CANNOT." Yes maybe some (very few) did abuse the system but he and I both knew this was a very genuine case as it is for many people in CX but because it would greatly help me out at zero cost to CX then that made it an even bigger reason to say no. I mean why have a happy employee? :)

OSO

[Bob Hawke]

Yes but, Capt Undies, is it really fair to take it out on all of us. Why not hang out the blighters that caused the problems, make it known, under no uncertain terms that it isn't acceptable, instead of beating us all up over it. The punish all mentality is really to much sometimes.

[Dan Winterland]

Having worked for VS, I can confirm although the VS staff travel sounds good, it's like a lot of the Virgin Brand - all gloss and little substance.

Things have probably imporoved, but in my day, getting through to book your tickets could take all day using a premium rate phone line, collecting them was a nightmare and the reservations systems very flakey. Using VS staff travel was a real blood pressure booster!

[Oval3Holer]

ETOPS240, what does your reply have to do with staff travel? I don't think anyone would consider quitting CX to go to VS for the travel benefits. The question is, "Why is CX's staff travel system so crappy compared to VS?"

For example, here is what CX charges its employees for a LHR-HKG-LHR ticket, STANDBY! (all fees and taxes included in these prices):

First Class: GBP 621- round trip
Business Class: GBP 398- round trip
Economy Class: GBP 200- round trip

I wonder what VS (or BA or LH or any other airline) charges ITS employees for the same trip!

CX MAKES LOTS OF MONEY FROM STAFF TRAVELING STANDBY IN A SEAT THAT WOULD OTHERWISE GO EMPTY!! THAT'S DISGRACEFUL!

[airdualbleedfault]

Can't comment on CX V VS but can comment on CX V QF.

QF - Boarding by rank as well as seniority, I know this will polarise but I cannot see why a 6 year CC should get on before a 5 year F/O

QF- 4 tickets a year at high priority ( admittedly no freebies, but who wants to travel Y anyway ? )

QF- the system itself is so superior to CX it's not funny, for starters you can actually check loads (staff and pax) whilst you are working out which flight you want and booking same. No stupid ticket machines, no delving into the depths of CX to try and work out if you will get on. Literally can book a flight anywhere, anytime, if you have a smart phone ( including booking just prior to flight closing )

QF - listing, what the hell is listing ? You booked your ticket on that flight so we figure you must want to travel on that one ;)

QF - if you are QF group, a 1 year CC will never get on before a 15 year captain ( Dragonair ??? )

CX staff travel is one of the worst I've encountered and don't get me started on some of the staff at the counter :mad:

[SMOC]

QF- the system itself is so superior to CX it's not funny, for starters you can actually check loads (staff and pax) whilst you are working out which flight you want and booking same. No stupid ticket machines, no delving into the depths of CX to try and work out if you will get on. Literally can book a flight anywhere, anytime, if you have a smart phone ( including booking just prior to flight closing )

Wait till the CX e-tickets start, you can't get a ticket for a flight if its less than 4 hours till dept. Which idiot in the iJourney dept came up with that :ugh:

I saw the QF site last week, it's done by people who can think outside the box.

I was checking loads on QF for HKG to BNE, once entered the next page shows my flight at the top and then HKG to SYD to MEL etc, basically every possible city/combination that may be useful plus the next day, about 20 odd flight with all the loads displayed.

Again a common sense practical approach which is sorely lacking in CX.:rolleyes:

[Dan Winterland]

''Dan, have you been to the Cathay staff travel desk at CLK? haha''

Yes. Most recenly 36 hours ago - I'm in the UK right now as a result.

''I wonder what VS (or BA or LH or any other airline) charges ITS employees for the same trip!''

They will probably be the same. These are the standard Interline ZED rates. The ID90 rates will change depending on the airline's pricing policy. The LHR figures are subjuct to UK Air Passenger Duty, which is the highest in the world. A business class ticket from LHR to HKG currently has GBP 150 (HKD 1800) tax payable on departure.

I'm glad to hear the VS staff travel has improved - it was going to be hard for it to get worse. And I've had more of my fair share of grief with it - but at the outports - the LHR and LGW staff were usually great. Problems down route involved being refused access to a flight (even though there were seats available (JFK), being downgraded from J to Y (despite seats being available in J (JFK again) and my wife and her friend being refused access to seats despite the jump seats being allocated (LAS). luckily for them, the Captain and F/O were their husbands and the flight was delayed until they were on!

[spannersatcx]

Boarding by rank as well as seniority, I know this will polarise but I cannot see why a 6 year CC should get on before a 5 year F/O
Just because you are a pilot shouldn't mean you get on before someone else with more service than you for leisure travel. Duty yes of course but leisure travel no.

[main_dog]

A bit OT perhaps, but the other day I missed four flights out of HKG to SYD in a row. All four flights, according to Traveldesk, were showing red in economy (0 avail) but green in business (4-8 seats available in J on each flight). I held J tickets and had refused to accept Y when asked the ritual "would you be willing to fly in economy class?" question.

On two of these four flights, right at the last minute Y was once again offered, while J was declared "full". My point is: if at the end economy is available while business class fills up, either Traveldesk lies, or else they are upgrading Y class pax (Asiamiles etc) ahead of staff holding J tickets. Isn't that not supposed to happen?

I didn't bother asking the staff at the desk, wary of their usual cold wall of impenetrable Chinglish. Eventually I accepted Y :rolleyes:

[Iron Skillet]

Spanner,

Just because you are a pilot doesn't mean you should be entitled to J class before more senior employees who perform unskilled labour, right?

Just because you are a pilot doesn't mean you should be entitled to more pay before more senior employees who perform unskilled labour, right?

Etc. Etc. Etc.

Figure it out: Not all careers come with the same level of benefits, or a very good reason...hence the "levels" of employees and so on, and so on....

[404 Titan]

main_dog

Did you check the loads on Cupid? If Y was showing red then it would most likely have been over sold by a substantial amount. Cupid, unlike Travel Desk will tell you by how much. Was Travel desk also showing red overall? Usually well before check in the CX check in supervisors would have decided which Y class passengers would be upgraded, i.e. frequent flyers, Marco Polo etc. Having only recently travelled to Sydney myself, most flights were overbooked overall. I’m not sure though how many “No Shows” there were though in the end.

All that being said, I’m not sure how this will play out after the 12th?

[broadband circuit]

they are upgrading Y class pax (Asiamiles etc) ahead of staff holding J tickets. Isn't that not supposed to happen?

I think you'll find that revenue Y pax upgrading to J at check-in by either paying money or using Asia Miles do get on ahead of ID. They are not supposed to give free upgrades to revenue Y pax and then downgrade an staff traveller who has presented a J ticket. (which they've been caught doing a few times)


I'm sorry Iron Skillet, I'm with Spanner on that one. I agree with your comment about salary for different skill level, but staff travel benefits is a company wide benefit. Personally I have no problem with any colleague, regardless of job title, getting a seat ahead of me based on date of joining.

[AAIGUY]

404 is exactly right.

In oversold Y situations, Golds and Diamonds
are upgraded in advance. We'll before you and I
check in.

[main_dog]

In oversold Y situations, Golds and Diamonds
are upgraded in advance.

In oversold Y situations, I would expect nothing less... the company is there to make money after all, not cater to its staff. However, if Y ended up with seats available while J was full (and it was supposed to be the other way around), then they are not upgrading due overbooking (as there are still seats in Y available).

As such I assume they are upgrading to J even when not required, presumably through Asiamiles. As I recall, this was not supposed to happen ahead of staff holding J? I seem to remember reading this in CX News (the section that one wag recently desribed as the "Nippere$$ says No" column :}), but Lord knows I've been wrong before.

PS Titan, the overall was showing yellow or green as I recall. And yes I must learn to use cupid...

[Freehills]

Bit late to learn Cupid, it only has a week left to go

[404 Titan]

main_dog

As AAIGUY and myself said, the decision by CX to upgrade certain Y class pax in oversold Y class situations is made well before you or I get to the airport. If those pax get to the airport early, i.e. 3 hours before departure when check in usually starts for a flight, they will be given a J class boarding pass. As we all know though it’s not uncommon for no show pax especially in Y class when the flight closes for check in. Unfortunately for us, the upgrades have already occurred, leaving only Y class seats for us. It’s not uncommon to find large discrepancies between the loads on Travel Desk and Cupid. I’m not sure why this is the case but I think it is to do with the times each system is updated. Cupid is updated at 2:00, 6:00, 10:00, 14:00, 18:00 & 22:00 daily. I’m not sure what the times are for Travel Desk but it seems to be about 2 hours difference. Both systems though aren’t live which in my opinion is its biggest pain in the butt. Hopefully iJourney will be live and will actually give us real figures, i.e. seats available whether it be under or over sold. I’m not holding my breath though as this info seems to be treated like secret squirrel stuff and the staff can’t be trusted with it.

[bugsquash1]

I agree with everything airdualbleedfault said.

The only good thing about QF was the staff travel website, fantastic.
I'll guarantee that CX won't get this right. :ugh:

As for HK staff check-in at CLK, the lot of them should be sent to the worst airport in the network to see how its done.
It could only improve their service, the most unhelpful of any place in the world. :mad:

[Oval3Holer]

Dan Winterland, you wrote, in response to my question, ''I wonder what VS (or BA or LH or any other airline) charges ITS employees for the same trip!''

They will probably be the same. These are the standard Interline ZED rates. The ID90 rates will change depending on the airline's pricing policy. The LHR figures are subjuct to UK Air Passenger Duty, which is the highest in the world. A business class ticket from LHR to HKG currently has GBP 150 (HKD 1800) tax payable on departure.

First of all, we're not talking about taxes. We're talking about the fares the airlines charge their employees. Taxes are the same across airlines (as far as I know) and therefore are not relevant.

Secondly, the fares CX charges its employees are NOT standard interline ZED rates. The economy class fares CX charges are (based on what I've seen) less than ZED rates. HOWEVER, the fares CX charges its employees for business class travel or first class travel are more than FIVE TIMES HIGHER than other airlines charge their employees.

There is no justification for an airline to make a profit from its employees who fly in a seat that would otherwise go empty.

[Ohm Sweet Ohm]

Just checked with my friend and VS fares to HK are much cheaper than CX.

[NoseGear]

This is a timely subject for me....I just got a J class boarding pass for a flight, I had specifically stated at the staff travel desk that I would not travel in Y class and yet, when I get to the gate to board, hang on, now your seat is 69C....so I say cannot and back to staff travel. I was told by the supervisor at the gate that someone had pulled out an upgrade voucher, fair enough, but once the flight is closed for check in and we are given the J class seat, how then can we get to the gate and be just changed to Y class? I'm certain this is against what BN said would not happen to us if we presented a J class ticket? Rant over:ugh::hmm:

As an aside, it was within 4 hours of the next departure, to a different, but close destination, so how would this now work with ijourney? Inside 4 hours, no ticket, no listing...and again, if I miss that flight, the next one is only 2.5 hours later....and why is it called "i" journey....? We are not Apple, that's for sure!!!!:E

[Freehills]

In that case VS is essentially free - the taxes on LON-HKG return (in economy) come to 116-117 pounds at the moment, so VS will get zero.

Cathay adds 85 pounds to that (so CX gets 85, government & airports get 116) for a price of about 200

[404 Titan]

BaronBlue

Does that £116 include taxes and surcharges? CX same Y class fare is about £202 at today’s exchange rate including taxes and surcharges.

[Iron Skillet]

Spanner and Broadband,

Who are you to draw the line between what are acceptable factors when deciding "who gets on" during leisure travel, and what makes you think you are right?

Why should company-wide seniority determine ID travel priority? Do you think doing so is fair to those who spend 10 or 20 years acquiring the skills and experience to get hired at CX, while others learn to serve drinks and open a door at 19 yrs old and end up with 10 or 20 yrs more seniority than someone like a pilot? Do you really think different levels of employees do not have different levels of benefits to attract and retain them? Why is salary OK with you, but not leisure travel? Why are leisure travel advantages not as important as salary advantages? Or housing?

There's a financial reason pilots on duty travel have a higher priority than the Queen, and FAs on duty too, but what is so wrong about rewarding that significantly higher level of importance and critical value to the financial success of the company? It doesn't matter how many of the other 20000 employees do their jobs well: If the pilots aren't there to fly the planes, nothing happens. So why not reward them with something that matters a lot to their lifestyle and job satisfaction when (most) live very far from their home countries: Better leisure travel priority.

Do you think cabin crew and sim instructors get the same level of housing assistance? Should that be based on seniority? Do you think local employees should have the same FOC travel priority 4 tickets as expats who are promised one high-priority (not that it works) trip home per year? Do you think a Finance Director or Manager from Swire Coca Cola or the RAF or Bank of China, new to the company, gets on a flight only after a more senior BC get on? Do you think a DEFO or DEC, but able to list in J, gets on only after a more senior secretary? The list of differences goes on and on and on. Not everything is based on seniority, and not everything should be.

Until recently, the willingness to take lower paying jobs with worse working conditions (no housing, higher tax, commuting expenses, more roster disruptions, lower pay) has led to many pilots' promotions, not seniority. Leave is not awarded in seniority. Neither are rosters, requests, W's, type changes or basings, etc., despite numerous contracts and agreements. Why was/is that OK?

Do you think staff travel bumps BN out of J to upgrade their friend back there in overbooked Y?

Rank has its privileges, and leisure travel is already one of them. Are you asking them to give that away too?

[404 Titan]

Iron Skillet

If you can name one airline anywhere in the world that treats their pilots above other employees when it comes to staff travel, I might listen to you. Just like you I am a line driver but unlike you I don’t have a problem with any other staff members getting priority over me with staff travel if they joined CX before I did. As for the rest of your post, it’s totally irrelevant to this discussion.

[SMOC]

404, QF is one such airline, however I'm with, you I have no problem with CX staff that joined before me having a higher priority. The way I see it I can afford to go J class and bump them if I so choose.

[Iron Skillet]

Leisure travel priority guys: I asked why you think it's ok, not if you think it's ok.

SMOC: Why don't employees senior to you get to do the same thing you do regarding bumping by paying for J class, if you think seniority is more important than employee level?

[Freehills]

Of course, in QF, the pilots are upset that key IT staff are given better priority than the pilots...

[404 Titan]

BaronBlue

Just so we can make a comparison how much is a normal staff ticket LHR-HKG return? As for our “free” sectors, we only get four and like you guys we have to pay all the taxes which really doesn’t make them free at all.

[Iron Skillet]

As for the free sectors, we get 4 unless as mentioned above, unless we want/need (usually need) the higher priority to your home country (to the port from near where you were hired and were flown from to HKG) then it is only 2 sectors (not that that works as intended, either, but it can).

[SMOC]

SMOC: Why don't employees senior to you get to do the same thing you do regarding bumping by paying for J class, if you think seniority is more important than employee level?

Iron Skillet, they can but what I've noticed is the majority of CX staff choose to fly Y class which I assume is to save money, I'm fortunate enough to be able to afford J class (plus I'm tall and the Y class seats suck!) I've only ever been booted by more senior cockpit crew, plus we'd have another whole can of worms if DE freighter commands started kicking me off!

[Cpt. Underpants]

Right there, that last paragraph, makes me wonder if you work for CX at all.

Staff travel, fortunately, is the one area where seniority is actually respected in CX. DECs have always, and will always, have to wait their turn.

[Not Hiding]

Cpt. Underpants,

You wrote

Staff travel, fortunately, is the one area where seniority is actually respected in CX.

I must disagree with you. After an experience with staff travel where seniority was NOT respected, BN told me, directly to my face that FOC ticket "bookings" are confirmed randomly and not in seniority order.

Therefore, although you may be a 25-year captain with a waitlisted PRI4B FOC on a particular flight, another staff member, junior to you, may have his or her PRI4B FOC CONFIRMED while you are still waitlisted. That person, junior to you, will get a seat on the plane before you do.

If you don't believe me, ask BN, flight control or anyone in the BSC.

This behavior completely invalidates the entire "seniority-based" staff travel system at CX.

[Seven]

I doubt if FOCs are booked randomly. I imagine it would be on a first come first served basis, as there are just a few slots available on each flight, even when loadings are not too bad. That’s fair enough I guess, as one would want an element of certainty (or at least as much as is possible with a priority 14).

You probably wouldn’t be too thrilled if you were confirmed and then went back to the waitlist to accommodate an FOC confirmation for a more senior staff member. What happens if that person subsequently cancels? It would be an endless cycle of bookings and cancellations and reinstatement of bookings etc. and would probably require extra staff travel personnel just to keep on top of things.

Having that sort of system would make the concept of FOC bookings quite pointless as you’d never know whose seniority is going to trump yours till pretty late in the day. There are probably ways of getting around that by placing restrictions on the time frames when bookings can be made on each flight, but that would probably come with its own set of problems.

[Freehills]

Yep, fairly sure that FOC are on first come first served basis, and if on wait list, who ever booked first gets the seat if seats come available.

FOC is a catch 22 often. If the flight is open, why 'waste' a FOC on it, just use ID90. But if the flight isn't open, chance of FOC being confirmed is... slim

[Iron Skillet]

SMOC,

Are you saying that a 1st year BC with lots of money can list for and pay for a J class seat and trump more senior staff who is listed in Y?

I don't have the reference now, but I'm pretty sure that person with that employee level could only list in Y regardless of their cash flow. J duty and leisure travel is an ISM benefit, as with pilots, I believe.

[404 Titan]

Iron Skillet

All CX employees are entitled to unlimited zoned tickets each year in both Y & J class after six months of continuous service with the company. So yes a 1st year BC could potentially bump me if they listed in J and I listed in Y.

[Iron Skillet]

Ok, got it, thanks.

[Not Hiding]

Seven, your statements are 100% wrong! Doubt all you want, but BN (you know who BN is, or do you not work for CX?) told ME personally, to my face, that FOCs are NOT CONFIRMED IN SENIORITY ORDER NOR ARE THEY CONFIRMED IN ORDER OF BOOKING OR WAITLISTING!!!! GOT IT????

However, if you're confirmed you're not going back to the waitlist, OK?

I don't think you work for CX since you mention "priority 14." What the hell is that? It's either priority 4 or priority 11. Where did you get 14? Do you get priority 14 FOCs? Ah, you don't get FOCs since you don't work for CX and have no idea what you're talking about.

Freehills, why are you "fairly sure FOCs are on a first come, first served basis?" I have PERSONAL EXPERIENCE BEING ON WAITLIST WHILE SOMEONE JUNIOR TO ME, WITH THE SAME PRIORITY 11B FOC BOOKED THE FOC A FEW HOURS PRIOR TO THE FLIGHT AND WAS IMMEDIATELY CONFIRMED WHILE I REMAINED ON THE WAITLIST AND DIDN'T GET ON THE FLIGHT!

[Harbour Dweller]

Another issue comes when Senior crew travel with their family. If travelling with kids under 15 years you can only list in Y.

Along comes a very junior staff member just 6 mths in the company. They list in J & have priority over you & the family. :confused:

[Seven]

Ouch NH, take it easy mate. No offense was intended, was just making the point that random confirmations of FOCs seem unlikely. I'd like to believe there is some method in the madness, even in CX :p. But as BN (or to be more accurate, RJN) has given you his personal assurance countering this, I'll just defer to your wisdom.

However, if you're confirmed you're not going back to the waitlist, OK?
The point I was making is that if bookings were to be confirmed strictly on seniority, that scenario may well become a regular occurance, unless there were other caveats imposed, which may well come with unintended consequences of their own.

[Fly747]

Quote:
Staff travel, fortunately, is the one area where seniority is actually respected in CX.

Not entirely true Capt Pants, I wonder if you work actually for CX?
The KA DECs kept their KA DoJ for staff travel purposes and pay point. Some of them are now surprisingly senior for staff travel.

[flapsupdown]

Just had a couple of questions regarding our staff travel policies. Yes I know it's online but I'm asking here because I can't seem to find it anymore.

1. Travel nominees: for companion and parents, priority 27? How about spouse and children?

2. Crew seats: sat in a cabin crew seat once cause flight was full and jumps seat not released as it was a training flight. Can we use crew seats for all fleets or just our own?


Thanks

[joebanana]

The KA DECs kept their KA DoJ for staff travel purposes and pay point. Some of them are now surprisingly senior for staff travel.

100% correct. Now why didn't we keep DOJ for seniority purposes as we were entitled to do under UK TUPE legislation?

Looking forward to the usual blinkered 'we bought you' crap arguments :rolleyes:

[Cumguzzler]

I think DOJ actually means when you joined the airline, not when you joined a previous airline...

[Fly747]

I think then Cum you might be disappointed when you try to get on for ST if there is a KA DEC who joined KA before you joined CX!
Same applies for all the ex KA office staff too.

[Cumguzzler]

We should used a red Swingline for their DOJ.. Just ask Milton:ok:

[AnAmusedReader]

If there are no cabin crew to man the doors, nothing happens.

If there are no ramp staff, ground engineers, fuel truck drivers etc, nothing happens.

The list goes on.

It's not just us they need.

[joebanana]

I think DOJ actually means when you joined the airline, not when you joined a previous airline...

Not under UK law.... ;)

[spannersatcx]

Under uk employment law you are protected under TUPE rules which means that if airline A takes over airline B your DOJ for benefits such as travel is from when you started not when you were taken over. Also if you are the subject of the takeover any benefits you have that are better you keep, those not as good are made up.

[Iron Skillet]

Amused, you've missed the point.

Perhaps it would all make more sense if you subdivide people into those that provide support to prepare a flight, those that provide support in conducting a flight, and those that conduct the flight.

Maybe it would be easier for you to sort out the relative importance/essential service nature/cost of acquiring and replacing of each of your examples by ranking the financial value placed upon them by their employers? I fail to understand why this makes some feel so uncomfortable.

Next you're going to actually pretend that the guy who types in the notams is as valuable and critical as the terminal area controller? Or a company's sanitation scheduling assistant is as important and essential as the CFO? Or the army's corporals should be paid as much as the major-generals?

Yes, major-generals can't lead troops if they don't have troops to lead. But that was not the point, now, was it?

[Guru]

The point is, an airline aims to make money by flying passengers/freight from A to B. Having its planes fly is not in itself the goal. If nobody had sold tickets to passengers, no qualified cabin crew to meet the requirements, no engineer to make the aircrafts serviceable etc, would the airline still hand us the keys and ask us to go burn a whole load of fuel? Do pilots create value for the company by flying an empty aircraft?

If it becomes impossible for an airline to make money, the pilots will be just as redundant as everyone else.

[blue_side_up]

Getting back to the issue of ticket prices for staff...
There are, in fact, 3 levels of ZED fare that airlines use: ZED High, Med, and Low. How those relate to actual fare charged is a mystery though, like much of staff travel at CX. I thought, naively, that all ID90's were exactly that - 90% of the full fare.
On a slight sidetrack... Why is it we can't buy J-class ID90's on other airlines? The structure is there for it to happen, but we're not allowed to use it for leisure travel. Surely it would make sense to allow it at least on other OneWorld carriers?
Rant over

[No longer ATC]

If it helps, BA staff cannot buy J class ID90s either..

[Baywatcher]

There has to be reciprocation!

[T5Dolly]

For J on other carriers an ID75 would be applicable which would represent a hugely increased cost against a ZED fare and in many cases more expensive than buying a ticket in J from a consolidator.
The BA fare LHR-HKG-LHR
Y basic standby GBP97.00 + 115.43 Tax GBP212.43
J premium standby GBP291.00 + 115.43 Tax GBP406.43
Annual Bookable tax only GBP125.43
An extra 10.00 appears on tax on the FOC ticket
Boarding priority is set against DOJ with Premium standby taking priority. Should one purchase a premium standby and elect to travel in Y no refund of the difference between basic and premium fare is applicable. Some office based employees seem to have DOJ set as their DOB as part of the benefit package.