Rafale wins Indian order

[HalloweenJack]

BBC News - French Rafale jet beats Eurofighter in $10bn India deal (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-16809532)

French firm Dassault has emerged as the lowest bidder in a $10bn contract to supply India with fighter jets.

Now , the question must - will Dassault snatch defeat from the jaws of victory , once again?

[dagama]

Please see #58 at the following link:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/453856-britains-12bn-overseas-aid-programme.html

It is now confirmed.

[Pittsextra]

Jan. 31 (Bloomberg) -- Dassault Aviation SA rose the most
in more than 22 years, after a person familiar with the matter
said the company emerged as the lowest bidder to supply 126
fighter jets to the Indian Air Force.
Dassault shares rose more than 22 percent in Paris and
traded 20 percent higher at 735 euros as of 3 p.m. A majority of
the stock is held by the Dassault family, while European
Aerospace, Defense & Space Co., the co-producer of the
competing Typhoon, owns 46 percent.
“The announcement comes after a very high-level, equitable
and transparent competition,” French President Nicolas Sarkozy
said in an e-mailed statement. “The Rafale was selected thanks
to its cost effectiveness over the lifetime of the plane.”
For Dassault Aviation, the sale to India of its Rafale
combat jet, which hasn’t won a single export order after 11
years of flying for the French military, would be mark a major
victory. Over the last decade, Dassault has consistently lost
out in competitions in countries including Singapore, South
Korea, Morocco and Switzerland.
India’s Defense Ministry will begin exclusive negotiations
with Dassault within 10 to 15 days, the person told reporters in
New Delhi today, speaking on condition of anonymity because the
proceedings aren’t public. Talks will likely last for weeks,
pushing the signing of a contract beyond the March 31 end of
India’s fiscal year, he said.
Indian law requires the government to negotiate a contract
with the lowest-bidding vendor. Dassault is competing in the $11
billion contest against the Typhoon, the Eurofighter plane built
by BAE Systems Plc, European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co. and
Italy’s Finmeccanica Spa.
Indian Decision
Dassault is still in the running to win a contest in the
United Arab Emirates, and remains in talks with Brazil about a
contract.
Although it has been producing a plane a month for the
French military, without export orders to help pay the cost of
production, its funding burden falls entirely on France.
India shortlisted the Rafale and Eurofighter in April, when
it rejected bids from U.S. manufacturers Lockheed Martin Corp.
and Boeing Co., as well as Saab AB and OAO United Aircraft Corp.
The country is buying the fighters to replace an aging fleet of
Russian MiG-21s and Dassault Mirage 2000s.
Dassault had no immediate comment. The company recently
lost a contest to Saab’s Gripen in Switzerland, and Dassault has
since sought to get back into the contest by offering a new
commercial offer that includes fewer and modified Rafale jets.

[KAG]

Russia, the US (2 times with the F16 and F18), EU, and France were fighting to get a big fighter airplane contract in India (more than 100 airplanes). It seems France won.
That's a 10 billion contract...

http://s2.lemde.fr/image/2012/01/31/416x0/1636934_3_78f6_dassault-est-entre-en-negociations-exclusives_69b54fd0b1cc22cde9acbf6126220717.jpg

Dassault va vendre 126 rafales à l'Inde - Libération (http://www.liberation.fr/economie/01012387046-dassault-va-vendre-126-rafales-a-l-inde)

-----------------------------------------------------------

The Dassault Rafale (French pronunciation: [ʁafal], squall) is a French twin-engine delta-wing multi-role jet fighter aircraft designed and built by Dassault Aviation. It is called an "omnirole" fighter by its manufacturer.

Introduced in 2000, the Rafale is being produced both for land-based use with the French Air Force and for carrier-based operations with the French Navy. It has also been marketed for export to several countries, including a $10.4 billion order from Indian Air Force.

[Al R]

That'll teach us for not saying sorry about Top Gear.

[MechGov]

Were the other teenage mutant ninja turtles bidding?

[cazatou]

Nice one Al :ok:

[KAG]

Like it was supposed to be a big surprise here...
India has already chose in the past and is already equipped today with french fighters, the older version (mirage 2000) of the rafale, they update their fleet with french fighters (rafale), what makes sense. In fact nothing new.

What is new is the fact this is one of the world's biggest defence deals. 10 billions.

[Reinhardt]

Ah, ça fait quand même du bien... :D:D:D:D:D

Yeap, a winner had to be at some moment.

The Bloomberg article is full of mistakes :
Biggest one is that the Rafale is not due to replace the Mirage 2000 - even if it's part of the anglo-saxon strategy to say "ageing Mirage 2000"
A very big contract of modernisation has been signed with french industry a couple of months ago for those Mirage 2000, new avionics - and new missiles , more than 500 MICA all-sectors, multi-sensors. The french avionics companies Thales and Sagem did the modernisation of the indian Jaguars in the 80s, and also of the Sukkhoi 30....
Before the Mirage 2000 deal of the end of the 80s, there had been the big contract of the Jaguar, mostly with the british (as Dassault never acknowledged paternity of that aircraft, which was originally a Breguet product...)
Before, 110 Mystère IV had been bought (sorry for those who don"t know what it is - yes, it's another Dassault aircraft) and they fought gallantly during a couple of wars with sub-continent neighbours...
And even before, 104 Dassault Ouragan (sorry for the sam eoneshad been bought at the beginning of the 50s...... and also 30 Breguet Alizé for the indian Navy carriers in the 60s...
The Rafale C (Air Force) and M (Navy, from french aircraft carrier) have been operating for a couple of years over Afghanistan, and more recently over Lybia.
A small Rafale squadron is based by the Armée de l'air in UAE.

And now, back to the bottles... :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D

[Fatnfast]

I can`t help but think that this will mean more job losses at BWOS. Typhoon build has slowed down considerably and JSF build is at a crawl. They were really relying on this order.

[Pittsextra]

Yeah was going to ask - how does this affect BAE Systems?

[Milo Minderbinder]

Should've let BAE take the lead sales role rather than EADS.
BAE have a better palm-greasing technique, they would have won the contract, although they would have had to pay a few commission fees somewhere

[Willard Whyte]

Plus, of course, there's a readily available M version should India's naval ambitions warrant it.

[manccowboy]

How many Rafale's does our aid buy them?

[Ali Barber]

Will they be using British overseas aid to pay for them? It's a clandestine way of helping to bale out the Euro.

[LeCrazyFrog]

I think technically they haven't won the order, they entrered the "exclusive negotiations" phase...:uhoh:
However it is true that things are looking pretty good... for once!

[Pittsextra]

Should've let BAE take the lead sales role rather than EADS.

Well EADS don't really care given it owns 46% of Dassault....

[Reinhardt]

This one is ready for the next round :

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/photo/art/grande/944258-1121352.jpg?ibox

[JFZ90]

Shame for EF.....that's a big order.

Won't India have more 'gusts' than France now...? ;)

[downsizer]

Maybe BAe/EADS could sell them to the porridge wog air force?

[Wander00]

That's good - give squillions in aid to a foreign country who then spend it in France - so Sarkozy sticks two fingers up behind Cameron's back - FANTASTIC!

[Always a Sapper]

We should go ahead and cancel the aid package, it would be interesting to see if the buy then went ahead.

[TBM-Legend]

what about the billions that Britain ripped out of India pre 1947????

payback time methinks to the old colonial master...

[Rigga]

If not already stated - this'll mean more jobs to go....

[tartare]

At the risk of starting a huge flame-war - can I ask any knucks who feel qualified to venture an opinion - excluding price, politics etc. is it actually the best jet of the contenders?
What would you rather have strapped on in a real knife fight?

[Reinhardt]

tartare .... ask the Indians ! :ok:

[manccowboy]

We should go ahead and cancel the aid package, it would be interesting to see if the buy then went ahead.

I'm pretty sure once the press add 2 & 2 together there will be some sort of outcry.
IMHO Indian aid is a joke, their a pretty rich and emerging economy, probably in better shape than ours.

[Reinhardt]

As I can see, a lot of ppruners are hoping that some dirty tricks could still capsize the deal, which is obviously difficult to swallow on one side of the channel.
That is obviously expected.
The famous privateer Surcouf, one's captured by a Royal navy frigate, got this comment from the frigate commander: "you the french, fight only for money. We fight for glory " thus entailing the famous answer: "of course, what would you expect? everybody has been fighting for what he is missing the most"
Yes, a lot of ppruners would expect this forum to remain entirely monocultural, with people exchanging consensual ideas or unilateral jokes. The problem is that my fellow citizens are able to log on pprune and to disturb a little bit the dinner arrangements across some of the forums.

Now tell me more about the navalised-proposed Typhoon : on which sea platform could it be experimented and developped (if it's still technically possible, which is another story) ... HMS Ocean?

See you in 10 years :

http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/photo/art/grande/944258-1121352.jpg?ibox

[500N]

I like this from the media. How the UK can give aid to a country who has it's own Space Program.



"International Development Secretary Andrew Mitchell said in December that Britain’s controversial foreign aid programme was partly designed to win the bid.


Britain is sending £280million to India for each of the next four years, even though the country has more billionaires than Britain and has its own space programme.


The aid package is 15 times larger than the £18million France sent to India in 2009.




Asked to justify Indian aid last year, Mr Mitchell said: ‘It’s a very important relationship. The focus is also about seeking to sell Typhoon.’



The decision is also a setback for David Cameron, who visited India in 2010 with six Cabinet ministers and around 60 businessmen to try to establish Britain as the ‘partner of choice’ for India.
Yesterday, Indian officials said Dassault emerged in front because the Rafale jet was ‘much cheaper unit-wise’ than the Eurofighter.


It was reported today that Dassault slashed its price demands to ensure the deal was done."




I wonder how much Sarkozy had to do with that as I am sure he really wanted this deal.

[jindabyne]

Ley's see if it gets to contract signature -----

[Wannabe Flyer]

A quick query on the typhoon vs the Rafael.

How many typhoons are there flying and what is the cumulative number of hours flown in the typhoon Vs the Mirage.

Considering the Rafael is only tried and tested in France me thinks there is less operational experience in this aircraft than the typhoon. This was one of the reasons for the Griffin being rejected amongst others. A bit confused as the technical merits of one over the other and would be great if someone with operational experience in one or both could elaborate.

Considering the past bruha on defense deals pains were taken to ensure sufficient due diligence so that fingers would not point to kickbacks, but then again .................

Total deal size is now pegged at $20 Billion with order size climbing past 189 aircraft. (18 fly away, rest built locally with options to buy another 60 in fly away in case HAL takes time).

To all who think the Americans are miffed, take a look at the C 130 deal signed as well as BBJ and Naval version of it. Put together that is all in excess of this deal. Main difference........the Yanks did not have to go thru a bidding process and it took a year for the deal... this one took 5 years. Wonder who is laughing all the way to the bank now............... Add to this the Israeli and Russian deals which do not go thru this complex process of bidding and one does realize this was a great bollywood production for public consumption on transparency.

For those who feel the aid is going towards military aid please review the attachment below. Most aid is channeled directly to NGO's or thru WHO as is the smart thing to do so does not touch the governments dirty paws. Stopping this aid will not effect any change in thought process IMHO, besides it being only a fraction of what this deal is worth.

DFID - India country profile - UK aid (http://www.dfid.gov.uk/Where-we-work/Asia-South/India/)

[Pittsextra]

A lot of distration here vis Indian aid and other general flag waving, which is of course very noble but it does forget the general trend the UK follows in such things, that of self distruction.

Foreign policy has as much to do with these deals been done as any technical excellence in the kit - I guess we'd have the TSR2 else.

In the meantime the Rafale is (if its airshow demos are anything to go by) a pretty impressive bit of kit.

[TWT]

I wonder if the demonstration of the Rafale's capabilities in Libya influenced the decision ? If Rafale is confirmed in writing come March,will India be assembling most of them and getting technology transfer ? The French better hope they cough up the moolah on time too,scores of international companies got their fingers burnt supplying
goods and services to India for the Commonwealth Games.

[ICBM]

India doesn't need our aid contribution and is flush for $$$ - I see this going all the way to contract.

They've decided to buy a proven, highly-capable fighter aircraft and the Indians are not stupid....the whole A-G 'demonstration' by Typhoon over Libya was nothing short of an appallingly desperate attempt to emblazon 'multi-role ready' on the side of the jet...which it wasn't/isn't. I suspect India saw right through that. The French motive was similar.

However, Rafale eclipsed our illustrious Warton Wonder.

[Utrinque Apparatus]

TWT

If the Rafale's "performance" re Libya had been a consideration, India would have bought Sopwith Camels first....

Hair dryer for an engine - let's see if the Indians really will sign, they have form on cancelling such requirements/procurements. A quick look under the microscope might reveal the actual selection process vis a vis their own Defence Procurement Plan (DPP). As for level playing fields and price slashing, that's another issue given Dassault's desperation to sell the thing, anywhere, as they couldn't give it away before now

Sarkozy needs a boost before the elections too so another premature selection announcement ????

[Milo Minderbinder]

one thing is clear - there will never be a Sea Typhoon now, so thats plan B out the window. (or should that be plan D - was the -35C plan B or plan C.... I get confused....)and we'll never buy Rafale for the Navy after this. So its back to the good old Hornet as plan E (or is that an F,,,,) I give up

[Harley Quinn]

UA, compared to its competitors short lived performance as seen by the public, and I include politicians in that description Typhoon did not cover itself in glory, showing its face like a dutiful son at a parental party, then leaving as soon as possible without causing outright offence.

For balance, sales of Typhoon outside the partner countries are not exactly inspiring either.

[pr00ne]

THere's not much to choose between either aircraft.
Typhoon has 111 sales to 3 customers outside the consortium who actually build it versus 1 "sale" of 126 aircraft to 1 customer for the Rafale.

Typhoon SHOULD be cheaper owing to its far larger production run for the home markets.

Don't forget that Dassault has been here before. They were selected in the UAE contest to this exact same stage and then blew it on the final pricing negotiation, so this isn't in the bag for Dassault just yet.

Whilst both aircraft are undoubtedly worldclass and would both be an excellent choice for any of the Air Forces that have evaluated then, I do fear that the very pedestrian pace of bringing Typhoon up to a fully operational air to ground capability has cost it dear in competitions and will do so again. Its limited abilities over Libya and lack of deployment to Afghanistan stands in rather uncomfortable comparison to Rafale.

[kbrockman]

Will these Rafale's be equipped with the latest systems, like the DDM-NG,
the AESA-RBE radar (iso PESA), video for Damocles, upgraded RCS reduction
on the airframe and last but not least , the upgraded M88's (9T version) ?

[Jackonicko]

Typhoon's credibility is certainly less obvious than Rafale's.

Typhoon's AESA radar programme looks shaky and uncertain.

The roadmap to air-to-ground capabilities (save the UK Austere A-G capability on its Tranche 1 jets) is not much better.

EF GmbH are still making a big deal about P1E (which will/should get Litening 3 and PW4 onto the jet this year), while the Rafale has LGBs and an LDP integrated on all standards of jet, plus Scalp (a Storm Shadow equivalent), the fabulous stand-off AASM Hammer, a recce pod, and Exocet, and the French aircraft have ASMP - a nuclear stand off missile.

And the four nations are still arguing about the order of integrations and upgrades post P1E, when we should have the vision to get them done ASAP, unless we want to lose more potential export sales.

I can't really blame the Indians for opting for a (combat-) proven Rafale over a Typhoon, many of whose essential capabilities remain little more than optimistic hopes.

[kbrockman]

Seeing all this wobbling around by the Eurofighter partners (of what is potentially a very promising weapon) makes me wonder if the Germans wouldn't
have been better off going with the French iso the Italians and Brits, 2 nations that begin a pan European multi billion project that could have been good for
its forces and industry and subsequently also get fully engaged with its
potentially biggest competitor, the JSF, be it only as glorified parts suppliers.

A French-German-Spanish program would've been a lot more effective and
wouldn't have had the problem of having a key partner that is essentially
unreliable because of a conflict of interest.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, we're just pissing away our ability
to develop,design and produce complete fighter aircraft that can compete with the best out there.
At the same time nobody seems to have a problem with getting completely
dependant of 1 US company that completely monopolizes the market with something that essentially more and more looks like a pipedream that won't meet is initial goals but nevertheless will be hideously expensive.

F35 so far looks like it;
-won't be as stealthy as initially envisioned
-will not carry some of the UK weapons
-has problems all throughout its flight envelope
-won't have its wunderhelmet but an of the shelf alternative instead
-won't have its sourcecode available for its customers
-will be at least 2.5 times as expensive as intitially envisioned
-won't be easy nor cheap to maintain
-will cost at least 40% more expensive to operate per flight hour compared with the F16
-etc..... .


It's easy to be critical about the French but one thing is sure they certainly don't lack vision and healthy ambition ,we should be honest with ourself and admit that they at least try to keep an indigenous fighter production capability alive.

[Milo Minderbinder]

And the paint will wash off in the rain.....

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Not in the rain, only in supersonic.:E

[Nicholas Howard]

THere's not much to choose between either aircraft

From my uneducated position it would seem there is quite a bit to choose between them, as the Rafale has a carrier variant (a stated Indian requirement, google "Indian IAC"), whereas the Eurofighter does not.

So either the Indians do what we are attempting (and seemingly finding it too expensive/difficult) and buy both a land based aircraft and a different carrier aircraft, or they do what the French have done and buy one that does both.

The whole life costs of running 1 fleet versus 2 ought to make a small difference in purchase price negligible. Assuming, of course, that cost is a factor rather than political machinations

Nick

[scudpilot]

so.. is this "game over" for this order as far as Typhoon is concerned then, or has it not that far...

[Not_a_boffin]

Nick

Try Googling IAC and MiG29K. The MRCA requirement did not include carrier-capability and in any case Rafale may not actually be capable of recovery using STOBAR techniques. It's all in the nose gear loading and FCS......

If it is capable of STOBAR, then obviously it's nice to have a fall-back. Something we could learn from when setting our fast-jet requirements......

[cokecan]

Scud,
i doubt its over from a financial shenanigans point of view, but i'm afraid that its over from a potential customer asking 'which is the better aircraft?' point of view.

Rafale is far more flexible in terms of where it can be based, it is far more multi-role than any Typhoon ever will be, and it is a proven in a sustained combat role.

Typhoon is probably a better dogfighter in a brillcream boys-esque, Battle-of-Britain styleee. whoop-fceking-doo.

[Gravelbelly]

Typhoon's AESA radar programme looks shaky and uncertain.

That's an interesting statement, seeing as the Typhoon AESA programme is fifteen years old if you count AMSAR. Amusingly, Thomson-CSF (at the time, now Thales) has been a partner in GTDAR for most of those fifteen years. They were interested in producing a replacement for RBE-2; Selex for the CAPTOR. I suspect that RBE2-AA and CAESAR share a lot of underlying design.

Others will know more about the comparative performance of RBE2 and CAPTOR, and whether this has any bearing on the need to spend money on putting AESA into Rafale, compared with the need to spend money on putting AESA into Typhoon...

[Gravelbelly]

A French-German-Spanish program would've been a lot more effective and wouldn't have had the problem of having a key partner that is essentially
unreliable because of a conflict of interest.

What, you mean like the Tiger helicopter?

:ok:

[Tester_76]

India doesn't need our aid contribution and is flush for $$$ - I see this going all the way to contract.

They've decided to buy a proven, highly-capable fighter aircraft and the Indians are not stupid....the whole A-G 'demonstration' by Typhoon over Libya was nothing short of an appallingly desperate attempt to emblazon 'multi-role ready' on the side of the jet...which it wasn't/isn't. I suspect India saw right through that. The French motive was similar.

However, Rafale eclipsed our illustrious Warton Wonder.


Ah yes - the "Warton Wonder" designed by a 4 nation consortium :ugh:

[pr00ne]

Nicholas Howard,

Wrong I'm afraid. The final downselect to two contenders selected the Rafale and Typhoon. Both of these types were 100% compliant with the technical and performance requirements and were declared good enough to do the job. The final selection was down to price and this is what has resulted in the Rafale moving forward to exclusive final negotiations.


The Indian choice for their carrier is the Mig 29K. The only other potential embarked type mentioned by the Indians is a possible variant of their much delayed indigenous light fighter.

cokecan,

No one has said that the Rafale is a better aircraft. Typhoon and Rafale were the final downselect, both deemed good enough to be chosen. Rafale is just cheaper. Now the really hard negotiating on best and final price, technology transfer and industrial offset will begin. This is where Dassault came unstuck in the UAE.

[airborne_artist]

downselect ... ... is one of the most horrible non-words I have ever read. Shortlist perhaps?

[pr00ne]

"... is one of the most horrible non-words I have ever read. Shortlist perhaps? "


English is a beautiful language. One of its many advantages over, for example, French, is that it is still growing, developing and evolving. It is defined by use, not archaic rules over what is and isn't horrible.

[cokecan]

pr00ne,

''No one has said that the Rafale is a better aircraft.''

i'm sorry, but when the Indians asked if the two aircraft could self-designate LGB's, or carry anti-ship missiles, or launch ALCM's - and the French said 'Je ne se quas! sure, here are the pictures', and EADS said 'err... yeah, it should be able to'.

and when the Indians made noises about needing a plan 'B' incase the MiG-29K buy wents tits up, and the French said 'Mangetout! don't worry, Rafale can do the business from a carrier, don't you worry about that', and the EADS team went 'err... lovely weather over here - must bring the wife'.

and when the Indians asked about a proven combat record and a proven history of integrating weapon systems and producing true multi-role capability, and the French said 'Zoot alores - these are pictures of Rafale over Afghanistan and Libya dropping death onto the beared ones/brave freedom fighters!', and the EADS team said 'well, err.. Meteor is going well...'

you don't think the Indians cocked an eyebrow and thought to themselves 'fcuking how long has this plane been in development? this bunch of jokers couldn't find their arse with both hands...'?

[pr00ne]

cokecan,

If that was the case then Typhoon would have never made the ultimate competitive downselect. It succeeded where many platforms failed. The competition wasn't for the variant currently being flown by any of the consortium members, it was for a version to enter development and production in 2015 with the 1st 18 to be manufactured by the winning company and the remainder of the order to be manufactured by HAL in India.

If Typhoon had been eliminated in the early stages then your argument would hold water. As it was it made it right through to the end and lost on price.

[Stuff]

According to the Daily Politics show on BBC2 today (1 Feb), Mr Cameron says the deal isn't final yet. There's still an opportunity for BAe to revise their bid downwards.

[Phoney Tony]

There's still an opportunity for BAe to revise their bid downwards.

O dear!

[Evanelpus]

That's good - give squillions in aid to a foreign country who then spend it in France - so Sarkozy sticks two fingers up behind Cameron's back - FANTASTIC!

I doubt it, he'll probably do it to his face on this one!

[John Farley]

I must say I find cokecan's points persuasive because they are clearly based on well known facts.

If that was the case then Typhoon would have never made the ultimate competitive downselect. It succeeded where many platforms failed

A tad naive. I fear that any self respecting customer will always try and keep pressure on their 'chosen' supplier by suggesting there exists a credible alternative. The Indians could have used any of the original list for that but how much better to keep the Rafale team honest by choosing another European supplier with whom there was some history?

[Pittsextra]

Given this is India all BAE really need to do is drag out those guys who were involved with the Saudi's a few decades ago.. India is one of the most corrupt nations on the face of the earth. This has less to do with technology and more to do with who has the biggest hospitality/brown paper/ Swiss account choc full of CHF budget.

[Reinhardt]

It's easy to be critical about the French but one thing is sure they certainly don't lack vision and healthy ambition, we should be honest with ourself and admit that they at least try to keep an indigenous fighter production capability alive. Yeap, Rafale development has been long and expensive, first versions of Rafale 12 years ago were a little bit light, but now the latest versions (F3) have everything, so it's done... and beginning to sell !
Its limited abilities over Libya and lack of deployment to Afghanistan stands in rather uncomfortable comparison to Rafale
No, Typhoon has never been sent to Afghanistan ? really ?

When being asked by the Americans in the 60s to scrap our high-tech fast jet industry, we didn't surrender...

[A2QFI]

Dassault obviously had a larger "Incidental Payments" fund available. That's what these big contracts work on

[Willard Whyte]

Dassault obviously had a larger "Incidental Payments" fund available

I can certainly vouch for the quality of lunch I had there a couple of years back.

[Willard Whyte]

One of its many advantages over, for example, French, is that it is still growing, developing and evolving.

Some words are growing like verrucas - I refer u 2 txt spek, and so forth.

[pr00ne]

Rheinhardt,


No, Typhoon has never been sent to Afghanistan ? really ?

When being asked by the Americans in the 60s to scrap our high-tech fast jet industry, we didn't surrender...

WHAT are you on about?


Willard Whyte,

Better get used to it, that's how language evolves!

[polyglory]

The game is still in play, keep at it.:ok:

[TBM-Legend]

When being asked by the Americans in the 60s to scrap our high-tech fast jet industry, we didn't surrender...


Please explain how the Americans asked the UK to "scrap" the industry.:confused:

[barnstormer1968]

Please explain how the Americans asked the UK to "scrap" the industry.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/confused.gif

I wish you hadn't said that.
It wont be long before someone mentions the letters and number T S R 2

I am sick of hearing from politicians that the UK has a world class aero industry, yet cannot afford to go it alone in aircraft production........Only for me to see apparently poorer nations build top rate aircraft such as Rafale:ugh:

[kbrockman]

I am sick of hearing from politicians that the UK has a world class aero industry, yet cannot afford to go it alone in aircraft production........Only for me to see apparently poorer nations build top rate aircraft such as Rafale

Here, here , truer words where never spoken.
The UK still can redeem themselves, there still is a lot of knowledge and skill
to get fully back into the market, be it on their own or (fully re-)linked up with the German/French/Spanish Airbus-Eurocopter adventure.
But all of it can disappear after this generation in the next 20years, there are plenty of other nations that want to step into the UK's shoes.
This industry doesn't need to suffer the same faith as your former automotive industry.

PS; BAe's decision to sell their stake in Airbus was questionable bordering idiotic to say the least.

[Load Toad]

Sarkozy maybe being premature (again): UPDATE 1-Rafale deal offers scant gain for Sarkozy | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/01/france-rafale-idUSL5E8D138E20120201)

[H_K]

I don't think that going it alone was what helped the French. It was NOT going with the Germans.

Don't want to be rude, but the Germans have a history of throwing spanners into the works of any cooperative venture. If it's not the crazy specs they come up with (A400M), it's the industrial workshare games they play where they overestimate their purchase numbers. If it's not that, then it's their handwringing and delaying tactics (thanks to their parliament & coalition politics). If it's not that, it's their complete lack of interest in power projection and the related capabilities. They make the French look almost docile by comparison. :=

I happen to believe that a bi-national venture between the UK and France would have been a smashing success. It would have been carrier & cruise missile capable to begin with. And at least the French have a history of successful cooperation with Spain, Italy, the UK, and many of export partners (mixed in with a few failures of course).

[A2QFI]

I remember taking clients to the now defunct 3 Michelin * La Tante Claire on my employer's contingency fund. Tasty and we got the business!

[Reinhardt]

Please Reinhardt, explain how the Americans asked the UK to "scrap" the industry."I wish you hadn't said that.
It wont be long before someone mentions the letters and number T S R 2Yes, I was about it to write the answer myself, but you were quicker - it was obviousky what I had in mind : TSR 2 (for the illiterate ones, there is Google, or excellent books on the subject)

It is by the way obvious that the Indians did prefer a deal with a single strong nation, not having to go through Bruxelles meetings for every topic...

And the Indians want an aircraft to go to WAR, quickly, thanks to their charming neighbours.... not like the brasilians or the swiss....

[Harley Quinn]

TSR 2 was cancelled over 45 years ago. It has gone, it was a 'might have been', but it's gone. Let's deal with the here and now, and not let this thread drift off down the same old routes.

Design, development, growth and manufacture of Rafale has benefited France, its' aviation industry and support industries. It has achieved more in terms of entry into service than Typhoon, has been subject to less Governmental interference than Typhoon and, I suspect will do the job it is bought for better than Typhoon can for the foreseeable future. I have long felt that partnership programmes have destroyed the British capacity to exploit its' intellectual capacity far more than any other factor and the French recognised that when they withdrew from ECA in the early 80s.

[BEagle]

Ah yes, Belgium. A country famous only for beer, bureacracy and chocolate which exists primarily so that France and Germany can have somewhere to settle their differences without ruining each other's wine harvests. Where the locals converse in a strange expectorant language which makes even Welsh sound melodious....:uhoh:













No, of course I'm not being serious!

[Milo Minderbinder]

bloody good beer though

[BEagle]

Granted - the choccy is nice too!

[BEagle]

Edda van Heemstra Hepburn-Ruston (aka Audrey Hepburn)
Sylvie de Bie....:E



....and Jeanine Deckers, the 'Singing Nun' of 'Dominique' fame!

[Bob Wyer]

For a small country Belgium produced some of the greatest Locomotive engineers of the 19/20thC
Belpaire, Walschaerts and Lemaitre to name but 3!!

[Neptunus Rex]

kbrockman

You forgot (perhaps) to mention the Brits in your European collaboration piece.

M' dear chap, the Rolls-Royce powerer Airbus A330s that I used to fly have more than 50% British content... and I'm Australian!

[A2QFI]

You may not like his work but he is a famous Belgian René Magritte - Olga's Gallery (http://www.abcgallery.com/M/magritte/magritte.html)

[kbrockman]

Belgium, a potentially endless thread filled with wonders ,weird stuff and downright bizare facts.

But like a wiser man rightfully notices:
Are we still on thread...?
so here goes,

Like already said, the deal is not sealed just yet, it looks further from fact than initially the French claimed but closer than the EF consortium hoped.
Don't be surprised if all this is put a bid on longhold to aid Sarko with his campaign timing for his next presidential election.
and furthermore;

French Rafale UAE deal back on-report | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/02/02/france-emirates-rafale-idUSL5E8D26WQ20120202)
French Rafale UAE deal back on-report

Thu Feb 2, 2012 1:09pm EST

* La Tribune says Sarkozy could seal $10 bln deal by April

* Win in the UAE could pave way for Qatar, Kuwait

Feb 2 (Reuters) - France could seal a long-awaited deal for Dassault to sell at least 60 Rafale fighter jets to the United Arab Emirates by April, turning around what appeared to have been a lost cause, French newspaper La Tribune reported on Thursday.

The French-built jet emerged on Tuesday as preferred bidder in a $15 billion contest to supply India with 126 warplanes, lifting hopes for a sale that would boost French national pride and restore the lustre of its aviation sector.

Citing unidentified sources, the paper said on its website that President Nicolas Sarkozy would go to the UAE in March or early April when the contract is likely to be finalised.


So if all ,or most, goes well RAFALE and the French industry have potentially
3 or 4 new customers signed and sealed and Sarkozy will come out smelling as roses.
Just in time for elections end april begin may, talk about coincidence.

[Al R]

Forgive my naive question.

Will the Indian g'ment be inclined to change its mind? It won't want to alienate the French I imagine, but in order to keep a valuable (?) friend like the UK onside, could there be a 'reluctant' about face in the near future?

[KAG]

Many famous Belgian in France, Jacques Brel for example.

As for France...
In Europe it has to be understood that when it comes:
-to space (the very successful Arianespace in french guyana, one of the busiest space port in the world, if not the busiest),
-to airliners (Airbus),
-to helicopter (Eurocopter),
-or jet fighters (Dassault),
the core, the center and the source are in each of this cases France.
That's only a fact, it might change in the future, but today this is the case and the sooner Europe will understand it for the future projects, the better it will be.

Now the Rafale itself. Comon! Some posters seem to be surprised here...
This last past century in Europe, ONLY France has sold THOUSANDS of jet fighters (french Dassault jet fighter) all around the world, involved in many different wars.

The french Dassault jet fighters have a war experience this half past century that nobody can match in Europe. As simple as that.

India (like many countries around the world) already had and still have many Dassault jet fighters. Rafale is a Dassault jet fighter, in fact there is no surprise here in the fact Rafale has been chosen.

[Martin the Martian]

KAG, you seem to be suggesting that Rafale was only selected because of Dassault's past glories. At least, that is how I read it.

Yes, France has exported large numbers of jet fighters across the world, and they have seen conflict in many countries. But let's remember that their reputation (and particularly that of the Mirage III) was largely down to their operation by Israel throughout the 1950s and 1960s against mostly inferior opposition. Had France not made the decision to begin supplying Israel with military aircraft then it could be a very different story. In fact, the day that France cancelled orders from the Israeli government following the 1967 Six Day War, and thus prompting Israel to look elsewhere for its military needs, must have been a bad one for the French arms industry. Compare the number of Mirage 2000s built compared to how many exported F-16s have left the factory. France also made a number of sales to regimes and countries that, quite frankly, no-one else would deal with.

But as far as India is concerned, and if you want to play the numbers game, they have flown 104 Ouragans, 110 Mystere IVs and 49 Mirage 2000s (abandoning plans for a further 110s M2000s and buying MiG-29s instead) for a total of 263 French jets. Compare that with 30 Vampires, 235 Hunters, 110 Canberras, 292 Gnats/Ajeets, 144 Jaguars and 25 Sea Harriers, along with 143 (so far) Hawks currently being built, supplied by or built under licence from the UK (989 aircraft), which really does beg the question as to why India was put in Germany's marketing territory and not the UK's. Mind, even that pales against the numbers of Soviet/Russian jets supplied to India over the years- nearly 1000 MiG-21s alone.

And let's not forget that France has ended up as the leader in much of European aerospace because their view of a collaborative project is 'our design, our test programme, our factory, and you can build some small parts to go on it', which was one reason why the French left the Eurofighter project. The one exception was the Jaguar, which the French government denigrated at every opportunity in order to promote the Mirage F.1.

[LeCrazyFrog]

mmmhhh.... don't want to get into bag pulling here, however...

- when the french stopped providing the israelis with Mirage, they copied the design, proof it couldn't be that bad...
- if we are only considering facts against a "superior" enemy, can you give us some examples please?
- KAG was mentioning Europe, therefore F-16 is out of the equation...
- country regime-wise, is selling EF to..say, the saudis more acceptable than other customers? Please tell us where do you set the limit.
- As for european cooperation, you seem to forget Lynx, Gazelle, Pumas just to stay on the military. I haven't heard the Frogs denigrating neither of those...

:rolleyes::rolleyes:

[PPRuNe Pop]

There is a topic in this thread, please keep to it.

[rjtjrt]

Al R wrote
Will the Indian g'ment be inclined to change its mind? It won't want to alienate the French I imagine, but in order to keep a valuable (?) friend like the UK onside, could there be a 'reluctant' about face in the near future?

I guess the question to be asked is does India regard UK as a valuable friend?

UK governments appear to have been concentrating on being a good European since joining EU, and have largely turned there back on Commonwealth countries.
Fair enough, but UK can't now, when convenient, resort to status of valuable friend when it suits them. A case of making your bed and lying in it.

John

PS I suspect there is still a fondness for the UK people in Commonwealth countries, bit less for the UK Government.

[Q-RTF-X]

UK governments appear to have been concentrating on being a good European since joining EU, and have largely turned there back on Commonwealth countries.
Fair enough, but UK can't now, when convenient, resort to status of valuable friend when it suits them. A case of making your bed and lying in it.

What a load of Grollocks - The UK has of course been trying a good European, but I feel the thought they have "have largely turned there back on Commonwealth countries" inappropriate and simply not correct.

Maintaining focus on India, I feel certain that successive British Governments have been supporting India in many ways and non the least in terms of financial aid (despite the latter increasingly going into the face of public opinion).

Even if the UK were not a member of the European Community they would still have to pay a lot of attention to what was going on in their own back yard, common sense dictates such. I don't see the government turning their back on Commonwealth countries (even in places where a republican sentiment periodically rears it's head) though often there may not be a lot of visibility in what is going on. I'm pretty sure that on a government to government level the same rapport continues as before and if a need becomes evident and if the UK is able to assist, then I'm sure assistance in one form or another will be forthcoming.

[rjtjrt]

Q-RTF-X
I'm not sure you would know what the feeling is in Commonwealth countries.
Indeed UK govts have turned their back - ask NZ about access to your market after UK entered Common Market.
An example - until UK Foreign Secretary came to Australia last year, no Foreign Secretary had been, if I recal, for about 10 years.
So bollocks is in the eye of the beholder, and you can remain with your smug idea that all is going swimmingly with UK and its relations with Commonwealth.

[Q-RTF-X]

rjtjrt

I am sure that over time there are changes in relationships based on changes in the overall world situation and of course the very regulated European situation, which is the cause of significant ongoing dispute between the UK and the EU themselves.

I have in the last decade visited NZ a couple of times and far more frequently Australia. These were on business visits within the aviation community including in some instances the Air Forces of both countries. I did not get the impression during these visits there was any serious degradation of the relationship. Be that as it may, all are entitled to their own opinions and perspective.

[Wannabe Flyer]

Seems to be a lot of flag flying and a Europe divided :sad:

However both aircraft seem to have made the shortlist on the extensive field trials! so let us for a moment assume they are theoretically on par in the varied control environment. I am also assuming their pricing was relatively similar for them to have reached the same cut off. Then it comes down to the political considerations. I am sure the following would have played a role

India - France extensive military sales relationship from Ships to planes to technology.

Mirage 2000 in Kargil

Current upgrade program for the above

Scorpene Sub program

France lifted all embargoes first post nuclear deal and has signed on fast to fund the reactors here and allow India into the nuclear club.

Lets put it this way, the French much like the Russians have too much stake in India and probably will not ditch the Indians in a tight spot. On the other Hand the Germans, British tend to tow the US line and in a potential conflict in their friendly neighborhood the French have more chances of coming thru than the rest of consortium.

Lets be realistic regardless of the typhoon or the Rafael both can probably knock the socks of the J-7 and aging F-16 aircraft so there is no real issue there. The issue is that when push comes to shove which country will stand by and which will wag their finger. That IMHO is probably first and foremost political consideration.

That said the Yanks are getting a chance in many areas and will probably take about 20 more years to build trust, till then they need to be in less critical areas of parts supply.

That said it aint over till the fat lady has sung, but either will be a better sight than the Mig 21.

[racedo]

British defence, security sector trade mission to visit India - World - DNA (http://www.dnaindia.com/world/report_british-defence-security-sector-trade-mission-to-visit-india_1645616)

Bet the chequebooks will be brought to suggest a change of mind.

Funny the UAE changing its stance on Rafale deal, could this be something to do with France putting lots of its equipment in place and its carrier close to the Persian Gulf for an attack on Iran. West acting as Mercs for Saudi's and their allies in exchange for trade deals.

[ORAC]

Will the Indian g'ment be inclined to change its mind? It won't want to alienate the French I imagine, but in order to keep a valuable (?) friend like the UK onside, could there be a 'reluctant' about face in the near future? The Typhoon bid in India was, and is, lead by the Germans. For all Cameron's pleas, his influence is marginal.

[racedo]

For all Cameron's pleas, his influence is marginal.

That not just in India thats everywhere :rolleyes:

[Samuel]

I have in the last decade visited NZ a couple of times and far more frequently Australia. These were on business visits within the aviation community including in some instances the Air Forces of both countries. I did not get the impression during these visits there was any serious degradation of the relationship.

Possibly because both countries have, since being discarded by the UK, managed perfectly well without it!

From my reading of the sale, the deal is not signed nor by any means is the French bid guaranteed success.

[Finnpog]

Maybe the fact that the Rafale is advertised with 'Nuclear Strike' as one of it's core missions is what helped win it.

[hval]

Finnpog,

No, it's simpler than that. The Rafale looks like an aircraft should, not like a bunch of bits from multiple manufacturers just bolted together.

The French know how aircraft should look; sexy, curved, aggressive, useful. The Typhoon looks like a bunch of sharp pointy bits glued together.

Looks sell.

The UK used to know how fighty planes should look. They lost the plot though and decided computers know better. You then end up with things like the AEW3 & the Typhoon.

[Milo Minderbinder]

An Indian perspective - from tomorrows Times of India

9 factors that may have helped Dassault sell its Rafale fighter this week - The Economic Times (http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/politics/nation/9-factors-that-may-have-helped-dassault-sell-its-rafale-fighter-this-week/articleshow/11758620.cms?curpg=1)

[Finnpog]

Hval,
I do agree that the Rafale looks the mutt's nuts. The phots from when they deployed a Flotille with the USN (USS Harry S Truman ?) showed the M model off a treat.
Reading Dassault's publicity on their website, they make a big bit about austere field worthiness and not over-complicating the design.
A real pity that these won't be getting bought for the WAFUs.

I would not be suprised if the MoD / RAF / HM Treasury's decision to sell loads of our Typhoons rather than keeping them is sonehow not a selling point.

[sitigeltfel]

What India thinks of the UK, and the aid it gives to them.......

India tells Britain: We don't want your aid - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061844/India-tells-Britain-We-dont-want-your-aid.html)

I hope Downing Street is listening to these ungrateful http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifrds, and is tearing up the next cheque.

But somehow, I think they will keep on doling out UK taxpayers cash to this Nuclear power, with its own Space programme. :ugh:

[hval]

sitigeltfel,

I don't see India as being ungrateful, just willing to state their wishes. It is the UK government that forced is desire to continue giving aid to the Indians. For what reasons, we do not yet know.

[BombayDuck]

If I may hazard an opinion, it has been suggested before that most of the so-called "aid" is an offset grant allowing the Indian govt to purchase from British companies at a reduced cost. Now I don't know how true this is, but it might actually aid British manufacturing. Cutting this kind of aid may not be ideal.

[Modern Elmo]

The Rafale looks like an aircraft should, not like a bunch of bits from multiple manufacturers just bolted together.

The French know how aircraft should look; sexy, curved, aggressive, useful. The Typhoon looks like a bunch of sharp pointy bits glued together.

That airplane, your Rafale or Rachel or whatever you call her, would look a lot prettier without that refueling probe sticking out prominently in the breeze. It's like a big wart on an otherwise pretty woman's face.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c4/Rafale-ec-1-7.jpg/300px-Rafale-ec-1-7.jpg

Grand Daddy's A-6 has a plumbing pipe like that sticking out. It's old fashioned:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/d/df/A-6E_Intruder_VA-52.JPEG/300px-A-6E_Intruder_VA-52.JPEG

In addition, that pipe, which looks to be close three feet long, probably creates siignificat drag as well as a noticeable humming or buzzing sound which can be heard in the cockpit..

Can't D'Assault devise a retractable refueling probe for the sexy, curved, aggressive Rafale? It would improve her looks.

[Modern Elmo]

I have une questionne. If I shined a flashlight into the Rafale's engine intakes, could I see compressor blades?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/3/33/Rafale_B_at_Paris_Air_Show_2007.jpg/220px-Rafale_B_at_Paris_Air_Show_2007.jpg

[TBM-Legend]

The French love something on their proboscis.......:rolleyes:

[Reinhardt]

I flew for years those fighters with the extended probe (F1, 2000) and also the ones with the retractable device (Jaguar, Super-Etendard)
Regarding drag, as you always have external loads nowadays, it's not such a big deal.

Having the probe permanently and rigidly extended (isn'it ?) means that it would not suffer from an electric or hydraulic failure, and stay inside the body when needed... :E

[Harley Quinn]

Modern Elmo- no
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcRSMccQI6x9aFqvVTKgX6_UJoxWUs634tlySQobWRQ Ex6GMPoydPnIgAlt8

[hval]

Très sexy, non?

[sandozer]

Interesting article here.

An Insight Into Why the IAF Picked the Rafale (http://kuku.sawf.org/Articles/68286.aspx)

[TurbineTooHot]

DT running a very balanced, sensible and well written article by Andrew Gilligan:

Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/india/9061868/Turbulence-ahead-with-Indian-jet-deal.html)

Also points to the German lead as a limfac.....

[JFZ90]

The diameter of the radar in post 105 looks quite small, smaller than typhoon. How much smaller is the Rafale scanner in diameter when compared to captor/ECR-90?

Edit info from Internet......


Actually... the diameters are

F-20/T-50 => ~500mm (APG-67 family)
F-15 => ~950mm (APG-63, APG-70 families)
F-16 => ~660mm (APG-66, APG-68, APG-80 families)
F-18 => ~700mm (APG-65, APG-73, APG-79 families)
F-35 => ~700mm (APG-81)
F-22 => ~900mm (APG-77)

Gripen => ~500mm (PS/05 family)
M2000 => ~500mm (RDM, RDI, RDY families)
Rafale => ~600mm (RBE family)
Typhoon => ~700mm (ECR-90/CAPTOR family)

MIG-29 => ~624 mm (N019, N010 families)
SU-27/30 => ~1000 mm (N001, N010 [924mm antenna ver], N011 faimilies)
MIG-31 => ~1400mm (N007 family)

In general, the radar aperture (antenna area) doubles with a 1.41 times increase in diameter. With all else being constant it takes an increase in aperture of 10x to double the range of a radar. Technologies like AESA antennas increase the output and sensitivity of a radar for any given size. Advanced T/R module technology and smaller T/R modules also do that. PESAs generally reduce sensitivity. Both types of ESAs allow instantaneous beam steering and high beam focus. Only the AESA can form multiple beams simultaneously.

The problem with radar improvements is that while output and sensitivity gains have increased radar performance by about 20~30x in the past 30 years translating to an increase in range for a given physical aperture of up to 2.6 times. The advent of VLO airframes has reduced RCS to roughly 1/1000~1/10000th that of 4th generation jets. To make up for this through radar improvements will require an improvement of radar performance by 1000~10000x which is not projected to be possible with known and projected technological road maps.

[kbrockman]

Don't forget that the next RBE2 will be an AESA WITH sidelobe antennas, greatly improving Field Of View without needing a gimball and total number of T/R sensors is not limited by the nose diameter.

Something which was also planned for the F22 BTW but never materialized.

[JFZ90]

Andrew gilligan says it had the 'latest' ESA radar in Libya - surely this would have been the pesa version, which I thought was largely considered a technology deadend and not as good as captor?

I'll admit the true aesa due in rafale from 2013 production - should - be better, but who knows, they said that about the pesa.:rolleyes:

I thought aperture size would always be linked to range, all other things being equal. Radar equation hasn't changed I don't think.

[BombayDuck]

I doubt radar range played much of a role - the IAF is transitioning to AEW-controlled sorties so the drop in effective range, if less, wasn't a top priority. Also, isn't the current CAPTOR mechanical while the RBE2 a phased array?

Anyway, it has been proved that THIS is the reason the Rafale won:

Catherine Auriol | Dassault Aviation | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/in340vj/6824401539/)

:E

[500N]

BombayDuck

It's never going to hurt, that's for sure.

[Modern Elmo]

Harley,

Do you have a photo of a similar view looking into a Typhoon's nostrils?

Can any other PeePrune person point to a picture of an eye level view into Typhoon engine intakes?

http://media.comicvine.com/uploads/0/9506/279285-9494-121470-1-harley-quinn_super.jpg

[earswentpop]

So they don't want the aid. Whatever. Can we have our call centres back? Especially that god-awful one for BT Broadband.

[KAG]

Turbine too hot: DT running a very balanced, sensible and well written article by Andrew Gilligan:

Turbulence ahead with Indian jet deal - Telegraph

Also points to the German lead as a limfac.....

The Telegraph article starts like that: By preferring the French Rafale jet rather than the British-built Typhoon, they rejected, according to the Prime Minister, a “superb aircraft with far better capabilities”.




A reminder:


Eurofighter Jagdflugzeug GmbH (English: Eurofighter Fighter aircraft GmbH) is a multinational company that co-ordinates the design, production and upgrade of the Eurofighter Typhoon, this includes incorporating the jet engines designed and manufactured by EuroJet Turbo GmbH.

Founded in 1986, it has its head office in Hallbergmoos, Bavaria, Germany. The company is made up of the major aerospace companies of the four Eurofighter partner nations.

46%: EADS
-----33% EADS Deutschland GmbH (Germany)
-----13% EADS CASA (Spain)
33%: BAE Systems (United Kingdom)
21%: Alenia Aeronautica (Italy)


Cameron wrongly comparing the French Rafale and the "British-built Typhoon" tells a lot about the accuracy in the second statement of his sentence: superb aircraft with far better capabilities.


For an Air Force without aircraft carrier, the Typhoon could be a choice.

Fact is that in 2012 in the Airplanes (Airbus/Dassault), helicopters (Eurocopter), space (Arianespace) and nuclear (Areva) top industry Europe could do without UK, but definitely not without France. A fact that Cameron should understand before comparing his "British-built Typhoon and French Rafale".

[ORAC]

Why the Indian's suddenly preferred the Rafale?

The Hindu: Beyond the Rafale deal (http://www.thehindu.com/opinion/editorial/article2851227.ece)

...............At a more immediate level, the decision to buy the fighters, which has been greeted with unabashed glee in Paris, could provide the leverage for India to hold France to its promise of increasing cooperation across a whole range of areas, but especially in the nuclear and defence fields, including the greater sharing of technology and expertise. Of particular interest to New Delhi, is the question of enrichment and reprocessing (ENR) equipment transfers. The Nuclear Suppliers Group reneged on its 2008 bargain with India last year by banning the sale of ENR items but France — a key member of the nuclear cartel — has said it will not be bound by the new restrictions. The French must now be held to their word..................

[Harley Quinn]

ME a quick search revealed this but I'm not sure how accurate it is- I suspect it maybe the plastic recruiting pig

http://img535.imageshack.us/img535/9044/40781675455f5751c45fo.jpg

[hval]

Modern Elmo,

The Typhoon intakes are S-shaped along their length. The turbine blades are not visible when looking in the intake at the front.

[jindabyne]

ORAC

What is this 'suddenly preferred the Rafale' belonging to an Indian? :8

[RodfjH]

First hand experience in India with the Hawk contract says that the contract will hinge on whether the French allow HAL or Mahindra to build the Rafale in India.

[Mach Two]

It's easy to see the practical attractiveness of Rafale over Typhoon. Being built by one country, with one main contractor, Rafale has acheived far more of its design capability in less time than Typhoon. India knows it won't have to put up with the riciculous in-fighting that has almost cost Typhoon its very existance over the years. If I were them, I would take a lot of convincing to go for a jet with promised capabilities over one that already has them. Especially given all the broken promises and missed milestones over the years.

[Courtney Mil]

You're probably right, M2. We should have seen this coming years ago!

[BombayDuck]

So they don't want the aid. Whatever. Can we have our call centres back? Especially that god-awful one for BT Broadband.

Only if you take all the India-based ones for Indian companies too.

Hell, we might even buy the Typhoon if you do!

[Modern Elmo]

Bombay Duck, are you confident that Rafales can handle newer Chinese fighter aircraft, some of which incorporate patented technology stolen from the F-35?


http://www.codeonemagazine.com/thumbnail.php?img=media/F16_DSI_01_SM_1267828237_1856.jpg&size=gallery

Diverterless supersonic inlet

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. (November 2011)
Diverterless supersonic inlet


A diverterless supersonic inlet (DSI) is a type of jet engine air intake used by some modern combat aircraft to control air flow into their engines. It consists of a "bump" and a forward-swept inlet cowl, which work together to divert boundary layer airflow away from the aircraft's engine while compressing the air to slow it down from supersonic speed. The DSI can be used to replace conventional methods of controlling supersonic and boundary layer airflow, such as the intake ramp and inlet cone, which are more complex, heavy and expensive.[1]

Research into the DSI was done by Lockheed Martin in the early 1990s. The first DSI was flown on 11 December 1996, installed on a F-16 Block 30 fighter and replacing aircraft's original intake diverter. The modified F-16 demonstrated a maximum speed of Mach 2.0 and handling characteristics similar to a normal F-16. It was also shown that subsonic specific excess power was slightly improved. A DSI was later incorporated into the design of the Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II.[1]

The JF-17 Thunder also uses a DSI. Work on the DSI was started in 1999 ( Note the timing. -- Elmo ) with the aim of improving aircraft performance and took almost two years, during which a number of models underwent wind tunnel tests at different speed regimes. It was found that the DSI gave high performance, high total pressure recovery, low integrated distortion and good engine/intake matching.[2]


The Lockheed Martin F-35 Lightning II, JF-17 Thunder, Chengdu J-10B and Chengdu J-20 fighters all incorporate DSI.


Text below is from Lockheed's "Code One" house organ magazine Code One Magazine: JSF Diverterless Supersonic Inlet (http://www.codeonemagazine.com/article.html?item_id=58):


...

Basic research of the inlet concept continued through the mid-1990s. Traditional wind tunnel testing of small plastic inlet models built with stereolithographic techniques augmented a CFD-based development process for the DSI. Engineers made enough technical advances during this period that two US patent applications were filed, one dealing with the overall design and the second dealing with the integration process of the new technology. (Both patents were granted in 1998.) The diverterless inlet designs built and tested with this combination of CFD and small-scale wind tunnel models formed a database of inlet configurations that would subsequently prove valuable to the Lockheed Martin JSF design.

...

LM Aeronautics JSF Design Adopts DSI

The DSI concept was introduced into the JAST/JSF program as a trade study item in mid-1994. It was compared with a traditional "caret" style inlet. The trade studies involved additional CFD, testing, and weight and cost analyses. The new inlet earned its way into the JSF design after proving to be thirty percent lighter and showing lower production and maintenance costs over traditional inlets while still meeting all performance requirements.

The flight tests on the F-16 validated the aerodynamic properties of the inlet, which will be validated further on the upcoming flights of the Lockheed Martin JSF demonstrator aircraft in 2000. The flight test also proved that the analytical performance and inlet flow stability predictions from the CFD analysis matched operations in the real world. The JSF program further refined the production version of the DSI design using these CFD tools.

The DSI inlet used on the JSF has evolved through several design iterations. The shaft-driven lift fan on the STOVL JSF required the use of a bifurcated duct with one inlet on each side. The initial version was essentially the same design used on the lower surface of the F-16 rotated up onto either side of the JSF forward fuselage.

This design had a cowl that was symmetrical about the centerline of the bump. This version of the inlet appears on the X-35 demonstrator aircraft. Later CFD analysis and testing led to refinements of the design to improve its performance at high angles of attack by shifting the upper and lower cowl lips to take advantage of the side-mounted location and to improve high angle-of-attack performance. This later version has been fully tested in the wind tunnel and will be used on the EMD and on production aircraft.[/SIZE[/I]]

[Harley Quinn]

ME, sort of begs the question; can Typhoon? if no what do you see as one types advantage over the other, if yes why is UK investing in F35 when such technology has been dealt with?

Not the full story by any means I'm sure, but I hope you can see where I'm going

[Pittsextra]

BAE considers cut to Typhoon price - FT.com (http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/8fb85e94-50eb-11e1-939d-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1lgtgBzAo)

[Gravelbelly]

In general, the radar aperture (antenna area) doubles with a 1.41 times increase in diameter. With all else being constant it takes an increase in aperture of 10x to double the range of a radar. Technologies like AESA antennas increase the output and sensitivity of a radar for any given size. Advanced T/R module technology and smaller T/R modules also do that. PESAs generally reduce sensitivity. Both types of ESAs allow instantaneous beam steering and high beam focus. Only the AESA can form multiple beams simultaneously. .

Errrr.... for clarity.

Radar range (in the physics sense) is driven by the total power output of the transmitter, the reflectivity of the target, and the sensitivity of the receiver - not by the antenna aperture. It varies with the fourth power of Tx energy (power squared for the outbound journey, power squared for the return journey); if you want to double the range of a radar, you don't double the antenna size, you up the power output by sixteen. The antenna size is more relevant for main beam width. That and your PRF schedule and pulse-to-pulse detection probabilities drive your scan rate, which drives... a lot of other design decisions.

Google "radar range equation".

Aperture size only becomes relevant if you're talking about the Tx energy being made up of lots of active array elements which each have a maximum power output - the AESA total Tx energy varies with the aperture size only if you assume identical Tx/Rx modules. All else being equal, the 16x increase in the number of elements required to double your AESA range comes from a x4 radius increase. Of course, an upgrade to the power output of each Tx/Rx module can achieve exactly the same thing - and such improvements keep coming along. Or, you could use a swashplate design, and add more T/R elements for the same frontal diameter.

Another thought is that it isn't as simple as "total power per element times number of elements" - not all of the elements will transmit at full power all of the time, for various reasons.

I'm not sure how Moore's law affects T/R elements, but I suspect that it's a fast-evolving area (google "graphene" for the latest fun). You may find that a smaller, newer AESA ends up with better performance than a larger, older one.

[engineer(retard)]

My distant recollection is that aperture directional gain makes up part of the Rx gain. This reference tends to agree, with my fading memory:

Radar Systems (http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/navy/docs/es310/radarsys/radarsys.htm)

[Gravelbelly]

My distant recollection is that aperture directional gain makes up part of the Rx gain.

True - I was focussing on the "Tx power ** 4" bit. You can do cute stuff with the same-sized antenna to give you better directional gain (see "not all of the elements will radiate with the same power"); but I was focussing on what I thought was a "if you want twice the range you need 10x aperture" argument from the original poster.

[Waddo Plumber]

HVAL, turbine blades are not visible down the intake - even on the Vulcan. Compressor and fan blades may be.

[jindabyne]

Mach Two

Given my background, it pains me to say so, but you have a very strong point!

[JFZ90]

True - I was focussing on the "Tx power ** 4" bit. You can do cute stuff with the same-sized antenna to give you better directional gain (see "not all of the elements will radiate with the same power"); but I was focussing on what I thought was a "if you want twice the range you need 10x aperture" argument from the original poster.

The radar range equation includes effective aperture size of the antenna (Radar - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radar)) - so all other things being equal it is relevant to range isn't it? The text quoted were not my words, just something that came with the text I copied from the info on the sizes of antennas (which may not be accurate, but the sizes look plausible).

In other words what i was trying to say was that if you apply the same radar technology to typhoon or rafale, the potentially larger effective aperture of typhoon will be an advantage?

At typhoon at 700mm vs rafale at 600mm, the area is potentially 36% larger. This increase is directly proportional to the power returning to the receiver, for equivalent tx power, antenna gain, range and rcs. Does that translate into an 8% benefit in range?

[BombayDuck]

Bombay Duck, are you confident that Rafales can handle newer Chinese fighter aircraft, some of which incorporate patented technology stolen from the F-35?


Given proper tactics and usage, yes. The MMRCA is meant to be primarily a strike aircraft - yes, with a swing-role capability and I'm sure the Rafale will carry a pair of MICA and ASRAAM/R550 - but it is meant to replace legacy Jaguars, supplement new-build Jags and take over from Mirage 2000s in that role (while the Mirages are being outfitted for CAP with a new RDY+MICA and already have HMS+R-73). I'm sure they will be provided cover for the next decade or so by Su-30s and by the T-50/PAK-FA after that.

The IAF is moving on from 1v1 warfare and has invested in "force multipliers" (not sure if this phrase is in common usage) such as AWACS and in-flight refuelling, while now attempting to shore up its superiority in numbers on at least the western front.

Moving on to Chinese aircraft: The FC-1/JF-17 may incorporate a DSI but... it's not a game-changer. I'd be interested to know what sort of kit the Chinese have gotten working inside the radome, and if they ever got the SD-10 AMRAAM-equivalent missile working.

The J-10 looks fairly good - but again I'm not sure what sort of kit they have in them, and I'm fairly sceptical of internet-based rumours.

If there is one aircraft I'm not at all worried about, it's the J-20. If they want to waste money on developing, buying and maintaining "stealth" fighters, more power to them.

But all this is just me, and it's a layman's opinion. :)

[pr00ne]

BombayDuck.

Er,

When you say:

"MMRCA is meant to be primarily a strike aircraft.... it is meant to replace legacy Jaguars, supplement new-build Jags and take over from Mirage 2000s in that rol...."

According to the Indian AF, MMRCA is a Mig-21 replacement.

[Gravelbelly]

At typhoon at 700mm vs rafale at 600mm, the area is potentially 36% larger. This increase is directly proportional to the power returning to the receiver, for equivalent tx power, antenna gain, range and rcs. Does that translate into an 8% benefit in range?

It depends :)

What radar mode are you operating in? What tradeoffs have you made between pulse duration, duty ratio, scan speed? What tradeoffs have you made in antenna setup for sidelobe performance, ECM, etc? How far off-axis is the target? Have you got a swashplate design, or a fixed forward-only array? How sensitive are your receivers, how much loss is built into the system? How much does the aircraft nose cone distort the signal? How effective are your signal processing algorithms? How much processing power did you build into the signal and data processors to carry out those algorithms?

[Wannabe Flyer]

According to the Indian AF, MMRCA is a Mig-21 replacement.

I tried to find a citation of the above but found the one below instead.

"the MRCA tender was floated with the idea of filling the gap between its future Light Combat Aircraft and its in-service. The IAF planned to replace the MiG-21 fleet with the indigenously-built HAL Tejas (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HAL_Tejas) (LCA) aircraft. "

So I think they are not doing an apples for apples but re configuring for the current scenario where Mig 21 - 27 and the Jags will be retiring to be replaced by a single aircraft to carry that load.

[BombayDuck]

According to the Indian AF, MMRCA is a Mig-21 replacement

I would love to see a source for that! I'm sure the MMRCA can do a fair bit of what the MiG-21 could, but not at the fly-away cost. The hope is that the Light Combat Aircraft/Tejas will do the job and till then the Mirage 2000 covers some of the role (interception) and the MiG-27 the rest (CAS).

So I think they are not doing an apples for apples but re configuring for the current scenario where Mig 21 - 27 and the Jags will be retiring to be replaced by a single aircraft to carry that load.

This is what I believe, too. Not all Jags, though, some of ours are not even ten years old!

[JFZ90]

What radar mode are you operating in? What tradeoffs have you made between pulse duration, duty ratio, scan speed? What tradeoffs have you made in antenna setup for sidelobe performance, ECM, etc? How far off-axis is the target? Have you got a swashplate design, or a fixed forward-only array? How sensitive are your receivers, how much loss is built into the system? How much does the aircraft nose cone distort the signal? How effective are your signal processing algorithms? How much processing power did you build into the signal and data processors to carry out those algorithms?

All of those factors can be applied equally to a 700 or 600 mm aperture radar. The larger one will always - assuming the same technology change is applied to each - have a range advantage.

It's like the engine size in a car at the end of the day. Yes a 1.6 turbo 16v can be more powerful than a 2.0 n/a 8v car. But implement turbocharging & a 16v head on the 2.0 and it will always have the potential to deliver more power.

The same applies to the radar aperture. I'd be interested to know if my 8% assumed basic benefit from the radar range equation for rafale vs typhoon is sound. I think it is a valid point as while you can play with/upgrade signal processing etc. it is, for practically purposes, impossible to alter the diameter of the airframe at the radome. Rafale will only have 600mm for 30+ years.

[KAG]

Ok so basically what you are saying is that in reality the Rafale radar is better then.

The "my car has a bigger engine but yours is more powerful" example speaks for itself.

[Gravelbelly]

Ok so basically what you are saying is that in reality the Rafale radar is better then"

No, I'm not. JFZ is correct when he says "all other things being equal, bigger is better"; the problem is that they generally aren't equal. Engineering is about tradeoffs and optimizations - you might find that each outperforms the other under certain circumstances, it isn't as black-and-white as "k3wl b1g radar pwns ur feeble fanboi e4t"

For instance; I would be very surprised if Rafale outperforms Typhoon when the aircraft "definitely isn't pointing at the target" (avoiding all mention of actual angles), because that's a known limitation of fixed single-array AESA. Typhoon currently has a mechanically-scanned antenna that can point its full effort in a single direction, and the trialled Typhoon AESA has a mounting that lets it angle the array to mitigate this.

Having worked on the design side of Blue Vixen and CAPTOR (ECR-90 as it was then), I was rather proud of what we produced; but that was over a decade ago, and I genuinely have no idea how well or badly RBE2 performs compared to CAPTOR. I also haven't got a clue about how well RBE2-AA works, or how it compares to CAESAR.

If the CAESAR production contract goes ahead, I would be surprised if the T/R element technology isn't as least as good as (if not better than) the RBE2-AA T/R elements, simply due to Moore's law - if you go to design freeze two years later, you get two years improvements in process technology.

[JFZ90]

I agree with all gravelbelly says - I had a feeling that there was some crewe toll experience given the Edinburgh location.

My point was only a simple one about size, though its true that many other factors apply. That said an 8% benefit/improvement in any aspect of radar performance is not something to be sniffed at.

I also don't know whether the rafale pesa is better / worse than ecr90, though I recall the rumour being ecr90 as fundamentally an excellent mech radar based on sound proven technology, whereas the rbe was a bit of a technology deadend (in a similar way to fmicw foxhunter ai24). Rbe pesa looks sexy in the brochures but it doesn't offer the true advantages of an aesa radar.

This is potentially academic as I assume the Indians would get the aesa rafale, not the pesa one, which you can assume is a much better system (if they've mastered the tech). Also worth noting that there maybe a telling reason why rafale is getting the aesa upgrade & typhoon hasn't yet - i.e. the pesa rafale needed the upgrade a lot more than an ecr90 typhoon and as such was easier to justify. Just speculation of course.

[GreenKnight121]

Also worth noting that there maybe a telling reason why rafale is getting the aesa upgrade & typhoon hasn't yet - i.e. the pesa rafale needed the upgrade a lot more than an ecr90 typhoon and as such was easier to justify. Just speculation of course.

Or the PESA was easier and cheaper to upgrade than the ECR90.

Or the French were able to decide to do the upgrade... whereas the ECR90 upgrade is mired in a multi-national committee, amidst arguing over production shares, cost estimates, desired performance thresholds, and who still owes who for lunch and that bet over last week's FIFA matches!

Or a dozen other possible reasons that have little or nothing to do with which systems performs better in which areas... I strongly suspect that each systems has areas where it is superior and ones in which it is inferior!


Unless you can get hold of the classified performance documents for both current systems, as well as the classified documents on the new systems, including costings and so on, all you can give is biased personal-preference wild guesses!

[JFZ90]

GK you maybe right - I'm just speculating on other possibilities - I think it is too easily assumed that the reasons are some of the common ones oft repeated.

Have the US ever fielded a pesa ai radar? Was it any good?

[Wannabe Flyer]

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-fighter-deal-Rafale-much-cheaper-than-Typhoon-govt-rules-out-review/articleshow/11830845.cms)

22% higher cost!!! Is it possible

[Reinhardt]

The more time does elapse, the more it becomes difficult for the anglo-saxon world to swallow it.
One of the most common ideas of them, written widespread over the media and the net, is that "so far Rafale has been unable to attract a single export order" So what ?
Now they say "Typhoon has biggest margin for improvement" - in other words, it's not finished, a lot of key capabilities are missing, so yes all that could be done one day... at a significant cost, with no guarantee that it could ever work or be finished (look at Nimrod Mk2 or Nimrod "AWACS") and for that development to take place, agreements would have to be found with the other consortium nations... and those countries are just so lagging behind, no longer wanting to commit a single penny or even to finish their current orders...
And now the British PM says "we will make the Typhoon less expensive" ... which is in total contradiction with the above story about future required development, isn't it ?
Stop saying Typhoon can drop a laser-guided bomb : it can... like any fighter, even a Hunter could do that, with a smarter aircraft illuminating the target (remember Buccaneers and Tornadoes in the first Gulf War)
And what about recce pods, cruise missiles, anti-ship missiles, carrier landing capability for the dedicated version ??? and for this last point, don't say the future Indian carrier will not need it : that ship is far from being finished, and design is not frozen...
Answering all those questions does give you the keys of the deal. Yes, it was a very important deal for both aircraft, a question of survival, and one had to lose...

All that is a little bit reminiscent of the last Rugby Cup : how could it be, really, that France did beat Wales, England, and finished close to beating NZ ? yes, how could it be ?

Allez la France.

http://s2.lemde.fr/image/2012/01/31/416x0/1636934_3_78f6_dassault-est-entre-en-negociations-exclusives_69b54fd0b1cc22cde9acbf6126220717.jpg

[Milo Minderbinder]

"France did beat Wales, England, and finished close to beating NZ ? yes, how could it be ?"

Only one possible answer - they must have cheated!!!!

[Reinhardt]

To all of us still dreaming :

Given all this, (Indian) MoD has ruled out the possibility of "any comeback" by Typhoon despite carping by the four nations (UK, Germany, Spain and Italy) backing it

That's from "The Times of India" of today.

IAF fighter deal: Rafale much cheaper than Typhoon; govt rules out review - The Times of India (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/IAF-fighter-deal-Rafale-much-cheaper-than-Typhoon-govt-rules-out-review/articleshow/11830845.cms)

[Rigga]

Well, perhaps it's not all bad news - surely there's a gap now in competing for the supply of all the maintenance and support for the Rafale?

We (Brits) have a few decent maintenance companies that are quite capable of taking on a relatively small fleet of 120+ jets that may not fly 500 hours per year.

That contract itself could generate about 500-600 jobs plus the Indian and french percentages...and over at least 5-10 years...?

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

"Secret Defense", a blog by the french journalist J-D Merchet (defense specialist), announce that India will share some of its MMRCA evaluation experience with Brazil.

The source is this article (http://articles.timesofindia.indiatimes.com/2012-02-08/india/31037055_1_fighter-gripen-ng-brazil) of the Times of India.

On the same billet, the blog links a leaked flight evaluation report (in english) by the Swiss Air Force (indeed, the billet is titled "In Switzerland, the military believe that the Gripen is unable to fulfill the tasks set")
As I feel it may enlighten some of the India's stories, I report it here (haven't found any more relevant topic on the swiss competition).
Abstract:
Among the three NFA candidates, the Rafale was the aircraft which demonstrated the best effectiveness and suitability in the accomplishment of all types of Air-to-Air missions, Recce and Strike missions. In addition, the Rafale made the best impression to the pilots.
The strong points of the Rafale were the quality of its sensors such as the PESA radar, the Frontal Optronics and the EW suite SPECTRA. The good data fusion of all its sensors allowed to provide to the pilot a very good Situational Awareness. A new concept to display all mission data has been implemented. The Recce Pod demonstrated also outstanding performances. The actual weak point of the Rafale was the lack of Helmet Mounted Sight System. The Rafale has been rated satisfactory in the accomplishment of all types of Air-to-Air, Recce and Strike missions with some enhancing characteristics in several domains. The Rafale obtained the 1st rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.

The Eurofighter was able to fulfill all Mission Essential Tasks required by Air-to-Air missions. Hence, in the Air-to-Air domain, there were several deficiences that prevented a good execution of some mission essential tasks. The a/c performances (super cruise at Mach 1.4) were among the strong points of the Eurofighter. The sensor data fusion and the EW suite performances can be mentionned among the weak points.
The Eurofighter was rated satisfactory for Air Policing missions and satisfactory with comments in the accomplishment of DCA and Escort missions. The Eurofighter could be engaged in Recce and Strike missions, nevertheless there were also several limiting factors affecting the overall mission success. Range and systems reliability were the main limiting factors of the Eurofighter. The RecceLite Pod provided only basic solutions for Recce Tasks. For Strike missions, the Eurofighter was not able to engage multiple targets in one pass (multiple DMPI). Despite the mentioned limitations, the capabilities of the Eurofighter to fulfill Recce and Strike missions were rated as unsatisfactory. The Eurofighter obtained the 2nd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.

Although the Gripen could be engaged in all type of Air-to-Air, Recce or Strike missions, there were several limiting factord affecting the overall mission success. Given by its design, the endurance, aircraft performances and aircraft weapon load were among the main limiting factors of the Gripen.
For Recce missions, the RecceLite Pod was also used by the Gripen. Multiple targets were not able to be engaged during Strike missions. There was no sensor data fusion between the Radar and EW suite. Among the strong points, the Gripen has three large screens to display Situational Awareness and mission data. The EW suite can be mentionned among the strong points of the Gripen.
The Gripen has been rated unsatisfactory in the accomplishment for Air-to-Air and Strike missions. In the Recce domain the Gripen was assessed satisfactory with comments. The Gripen obtained the 3rd rank in the evaluation of the effectiveness.

Blog (http://www.marianne2.fr/blogsecretdefense/En-Suisse-les-militaires-considerent-que-le-Gripen-est-incapable-de-remplir-les-missions-prevues_a523.html).
Report (http://files.newsnetz.ch/upload//1/2/12332.pdf).

[LeCrazyFrog]

Going back to the thread's origin, I would like to ask if someone knows why the us did not offer the F35 in the indian competition. Politics?

Thanks for your answers

[LowObservable]

Not so much politics. F-35 was unqualified on grounds of inability to meet schedule, inability to perform in-country demonstrations, impracticality of necessary technology transfer, and no doubt many other reasons. (I'd love to see an F-35 attempt a take-off at Leh on a hot day, without reprising the old ZELL concept and strapping a 150K lb thrust solid booster to its a**e.)

[engineer(retard)]

The report referenced by the french blog relates to trials conducted in 2008 and promised capabilities in 2015. Is it still correct and relevant?

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

@ engineer(retard): I'm not aware of any "revolution" in the developpment roadmap of any of the 3 contenders, so basically I would say 'yes'.
Do you have other data making you think those results now are irrelevant (I can't see why they would be incorrect)?

[engineer(retard)]

AZR stop being defensive, it was a reasonable question. I don't have an axe to grind about the selection, are you involved with any of the contenders?

Have any of the contenders had a change or capability upgrade in the last 4 years?

Do any of those capability upgrades effect the conclusions of the Swiss report?

Have they all delivered their roadmap capability in the last 4 years?

What external dependencies are there to achieving their capability e.g funding?

I can think of those questions off the top of my head without trying if I wanted to use old information to base a decision on today.

[LeCrazyFrog]

Not so much politics. F-35 was unqualified on grounds of inability to meet schedule, inability to perform in-country demonstrations, impracticality of necessary technology transfer, and no doubt many other reasons.

However, I believe that if Obama had promised the mighty F35 to India they could have been willing to wait a few more years to get a 5th gen fighter.
Other countries are already facing capabilities gaps while they are expecting the F35...

[recceguy]

Other countries are already facing capabilities gaps while they are expecting the F35... A very interesting quote, from a civilian.
If you are from a lazy or peaceful place (follow my glance) you can have a capability gap, as you say. And you are even totally free to wait for something promised to be wonderful, not finished, but costly for sure.
If you are from India - Israel - Turkey - France - UK - ... ? - you can't wait, period. You cannot afford a gap.
If you are an airline, and you have to wait for the Boeing 787 to be delivered/finished, it's really not a big deal : you keep flying other aircraft which are doing the same job, you rent some others... now if you are an Air Force, the consequences of waitng for the proper aircraft could be a problem (once again, provided we speak from a country with some action overseas or at the borders)
You say : the "mighty" F-35 .. ?.. why mighty ? because it's american, and by definition it has to be a great aircraft ? for the moments it seems to have its fair share of problems, and budgets overflows. Indians were very right in saying they were not interested - and they did explain why !

[LeCrazyFrog]

:hmm::hmm::hmm:

I stand by to be corrected but :
- Isn't Turkey participating in JSF?
- As well as UK?

Aren't both these countries, despite all their operationnal imperatives, having to wait for JSF to fill a capability gap?

When I said "mighty" it was to charcterise a 5th gen fighter...nothing more.

On wether the quote comes from a civvy or a military, I'll let you bet on that...

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

AZR stop being defensive, it was a reasonable question.
I didn't mean to be so, Sir, sorry if I let you think otherwise. Please take my answer for what it says explicitely, no more: I'm french, so english isn't my mothertongue.
And no, I'm not involved with any of the contenders.

As you know, the swiss report is in fact 2 reports: one for the aircrafts as they were tested in 2008, and one for the aircrafts as they should be in 2015 (as seen in 2009).
I didn't heard any news in the last years suggesting that the roadmaps for any of the 3 contenders were anywere but more or less on shedule (*). I guess then that the 2009 analysis is still more or less relevant.
That's all. ;)

(*) I don't pretend I know all, far from that, on those topics, but have no recollection of any major breakthrough or delay.


However, I believe that if Obama had promised the mighty F35 to India they could have been willing to wait a few more years to get a 5th gen fighter.
Other countries are already facing capabilities gaps while they are expecting the F35...

Agreed for other countries, but I'm not so sure that India would have been willing to wait:
- the MMRCA contest was already a bit late
- India will have the PAK-FA for 5th gen fighter

[engineer(retard)]

AZR No problem, your English is very good. In my experience, if a programme is not on schedule the producer rarely shouts about it.

At the time of testing, Gripen had been about a while, Typhoon was just entering service with an Initial Operating Capability for Air to Air only and Rafale had been in service for 2 years. I am not surprised the Swiss reached the conclusion they did. The technological look forward is always influenced by the risk of achieving it and as technologies mature the risk reduces. I suspect if they tested again today there might be a completely different set of conclusions.

Regarding the Indian buy, I believe that Rafale reached also preferred bidder stage for UAE before losing that contract. I have no doubt that India selected Rafale because it met their technical need at the best price. At this level its more than a competition between aircraft capabilities, there industrial and political trade offs etc that have to be delivered.

I think that all 3 aircraft are elegant designs and beautiful machines and dislike the nationalistic rock throwing that goes on.

[airpolice]

Despite millions in international aid and a huge Space & Defence budget, they don't even have Khazis!

How can British Industry be desperate to do business with people like this?

What has the Empire become?

India woman leaves home for lack of toilet

Anita Narre refused to go to her husband's home until he built a toilet


A newlywed woman in a village in the Indian state of Madhya Pradesh has won her struggle to have a toilet at her husband's home.

Anita Narre left husband Shivram's home two days after her marriage in May last year because the house had no toilet.

She returned eight days later after Shivram, a daily wage worker, built one with savings and aid from villagers.

An NGO announced a $10,000 reward for Mrs Narre for her "brave" decision and forcing her husband to build a toilet.

More than half-a-billion Indians still lack access to basic sanitation.

The problem is acute in rural India and it is the women who suffer most.

Shivram said he was not able to build a toilet at home because of lack of money.

He admitted that his wife returned home only after he constructed one with his savings and "some support from the village council".

"It is not nice for women to go outside to defecate. That's why every home should have a toilet. Those who don't should make sure there is one," Mrs Narre told the BBC.

Many people in India do not have access to flush toilets or other latrines.

But under new local laws in states including Chhattisgarh, people's representatives are obliged to construct a flush toilet in their own home within a year of being elected. Those who fail to do so face dismissal.

The law making toilets mandatory has been introduced in several states as part of the "sanitation for all" drive by the Indian government.

The programme aims to eradicate the practice of open defecation, which is common in rural and poor urban areas of India.

Special funds are made available for people to construct toilets to promote hygiene and eradicate the practice of faeces collection - or scavenging - which is mainly carried out by low-caste people.


Seems that, just like the French, the Indians are partial to pissing in the street.

[racedo]

Seems that, just like the French, the Indians are partial to pissing in the street.

You ever been in Leicester Sq at a weekend ?

[Reinhardt]

Seems that, just like the French, the Indians are partial to pissing in the street An absolutely beautiful quote - with comments like that, you are going to be even more appreciated by both French and Indians, which is exactly what we need regarding the future of the Typhoon in India...
Now regarding the somewhat desperate attemps of both BAE and UK Gvt to come back in the deal : I can understand the Brits are trying to save their product, but tell me - regarding that lost deal in India, have you heard any comment about the subject from Germany, Spain, Italy (the other nations building the Typhoon) ? The answer is No - simply because they don't care. And that's a big weakness of the Typhoon program.
I stand by to be corrected but :
- Isn't Turkey participating in JSF?
- As well as UK? Yes, they do - and they regret it so much... India MoD did state in the strongest manner that they were not going to be fooled by the US offers (pay for us to develop, without you having a word in it or any control of the costs - and don't expect technical returns execpt basic assembling of parts) In fact the F35 is the most effective aerospace-industry-killer weapon in the US inventory. The French never considered it.

[engineer(retard)]

How bizarre. A leaked report that has Rafale 1st, Typhoon 2nd and Gripen 3rd and the Swiss buy Gripen:

Swiss Go For Gripen NG | aviationintel (http://aviationintel.com/2011/11/30/swiss-go-for-gripen-ng/)

[LeCrazyFrog]

@Reinhardt : thanks for your answer. I agree with you and I was trying to make a point to Recceguy...

[ORAC]

Engineer (retard).

The same report was reporteded on in Ares (http://www.aviationweek.com/aw/blogs/defense/index.jsp?plckController=Blog&plckBlogPage=BlogViewPost&newspaperUserId=27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7&plckPostId=Blog%3a27ec4a53-dcc8-42d0-bd3a-01329aef79a7Post%3acdbe4d08-e716-4d22-bdef-fb707ccd5610&plckScript=blogScript&plckElementId=blogDest). The following comments were posted by "tangoviking", who wrote:

You're missing the whole key issue in the selection. And it's written in that document.

Look ! http://i.imgur.com/JrlYL.jpg

The evaluation ranks Gripen second best choice IF the budget can afford to buy 22 Rafale.

22 Rafale's were not possible within the later established acquisition and operative budget so the decision was to go with 22 Gripen as the best choice for the airforce and the offered configuration will be suitable as so written in the document.

Same General who signed the evaluation supports the Gripen selection.

Adding sources:

---
The flight performance of the aircraft are less good than the Rafale and the Eurofighter. Markus Gygax recognizes this fact. But, he adds, it is not now the most crucial aspect because there are other criteria. "It's like when you buy a car, says Markus Gygax. You do not just look how fast the car can reach, but also and perhaps especially its ease of maintenance. And the Gripen aircraft is clear that maintenance costs the most advantageous. We are convinced by our choice. "

Le Gripen défendu par le chef des forces aériennes - tsr.ch - info - revue de presse (http://www.tsr.ch/info/revue-de-presse/3770211-le-gripen-defendu-par-le-chef-des-forces-aeriennes.html&usg=ALkJrhhn8d9pqpJ15qFP6JSLb2mVeiCbYw)

In November last year, Air Force chief Major General Markus explains: "I have reported to the Federal Council that all evaluated types meet our requirements." (NZZ 19th 11th 11)

[engineer(retard)]

Thanks Orac. I can also see a similar vein in the Indian selection because Rafale and the Indian Mirage 2000 upgrade share many components, the life cycle costs are lower.

[orca]

Genuine question. Where does the under current of loyalty to Typhoon come from?

Reading this thread one encounters the main theme that Johnny Foreigner has done the unthinkable and bought French when there was a bit of British kit available.

I find this utterly perplexing. The Typhoon is used by the RAF but it's about as British as Queen Victoria.

I hate to say it (because despite 'everything' I actually want the RAF to have decent kit) but the system is still nowhere near its own sales pitch as regards multi or swing role and yet the plucky French with their Gallic shrugs and 'fark it we'll make our own' attitude have a similar product that can throw Mica, GBU-12, A2SM etc around with gay abandon and do it from a CVN.

If the Typhoon were a solely British design, made solely in Britain and the Indian bid had been British I would tend to have a degree of loyalty to both the system and this individual sale. But as far as i can tell - it isn't, it isn't, it wasn't, I don't and I don't.

As always - just my opinion.

[Jackonicko]

There have been whispers that EU competition authorities have been looking into MMRCA.

And now this:

"Rafale to India at bargain prices

France has proposed to India to sell its Rafale at bargain prices, writes the French magazine Le Canard Enchainé.

Always very well informed about the background of French politics scenario, the newspaper said India has recently chosen to launch 'exclusive negotiations' for the purchase of 126 Rafale made by the French group Dassault Aviation but that the aircraft had been chosen because of the extraordinary 'discount' offered by Paris.

For France - The Canard said, citing data from the French Court of Auditors - Rafale cost "some 150 million Euro." While to the Indians a proposal was made at "80 to 87 million Euro". "A huge difference in price," commented Le Canard, questioning the reasons for this discount:

"Either Rafale is sold at an inflated price for the French, or this is dumping, special discount under cost" states the magazine. Rafale has been offered at a much higher price to the United Arab which is interested in 60 aircraft. Now UAE could ask for an explanation as to why Rafale has been offered at a much higher price than to India?

A similar "game" has been played by the French in Brazil, where the aircraft has been offered at around 100 million each.

The real question raised by the article is if Rafale costs around 142 million Euro each for France, how can Dassault offer the aircraft to India for only 80-87 millions Euro? Who pays the difference in cost? The French taxpayer? Or maybe other Arab countries, interested in Rafale, will be financing the discount offered by the French to the Indians?"

Of course Rafale doesn't cost €142 m (unless you count R&D and other 'whole programme' costs) so the subsidy isn't as large as this report indicates. But figures from France’s Assemblee Nationale and the ‘Cour des Comptes’ (the French NAO) that indicate a programme unit cost of €142.3 m ($188.68 m) for Rafale, also give a unit production cost of €101.1 m ($134 m). You'd expect the export price to be at around this level, perhaps with a small profit margin and perhaps an export levy. Lower than this and it does look as though there has been a subsidy.

Still, what cost getting your first export order?

[LeCrazyFrog]

Comes from Ze Monde:
Paris et Londres envisagent un avion de combat commun pour 2020 - LeMonde.fr (http://www.lemonde.fr/economie/article/2012/02/16/paris-et-londres-envisagent-un-avion-de-combat-commun-pour-2020_1644010_3234.html)

For those who are a bit rusty on le langage de l'élégance, it basically says that brits and french are planning to develop a joint UCAV by 2020...

Here comes the Rafafighter....:ok:

[Archimedes]

'Rafafighter' - Roger Federer? :confused:

[LeCrazyFrog]

:):):)
OK, the Eurofale then...

[SammySu]

That would be the Eurofail wouldn't it?

[GreenKnight121]

It all depends on how the Dassault-India contract is worded.

I have read that Sukhoi's contract with India for Su-27/33 forbids India from making spare/replacement parts. All spares must be purchased from Russia at whatever price Russia demands.

It is a commonly-accepted tale that the military contracts for complex equipment that produce the most profit for the manufacturers feature low initial purchase costs and long-term maintenance/support/supply contracts with undefined costs, allowing for increases in prices for parts & maintenance/support work.


Many nations have gotten wise to this, and demand "all-inclusive" contracts that set a fixed cost for parts & support per year (or a fixed total for a certain number of years).

India apparently still hasn't learned to hold out for this type of contract.

[Reinhardt]

Because for you GreenKnight121, in the Rafale contract, the Indians are obviously the losers and the suckers, after having eventually settled their mind in favor of the French, thus discarding some of the most beautiful products of the US industry.... yes, I know, it's difficult to swallow, but you will get used to it.

[Lowe Flieger]

Re Orca's question about British sour-grapes. Aside from the rumbling discontent over the issue of UK aid, I think the disappointment of India's Rafale selection may also be at least partly the dashed hope that another large Eurofighter operator might have improved or accelerated the development prospects for the aircraft, developments which could then be incorporated into RAF planes.

I accept this introduces an element of the 'concurrency' debate which has raged around the F35 recently, but not to the same degree I think. Some have commented that the EF is less developed than the Rafale, so making Rafale the logical choice because it has been 'de-risked'. This does not appear to have hindered F35 significantly, despite virtually everything, from performance to price through combat capable date, still being steeped in risk and uncertainty. New customers are signing up for its promise rather than pedigree. Given it's chequered development history so far, I find this remarkable.

But back to India's choice: If Rafale meets the specification and is 20%+ cheaper than EF, that's an easy decision for a buyer to make. Unless Dassault makes a mess of the final negotiations again, I don't see any way back for the Eurofighter. As a buyer I would be suspicious of a supplier who can now reduce their price when they couldn't do so before; and as a seller the price may have to drop significantly below Rafale to win the deal, which could mean you risk not being able to deliver what you promise if margins are too thin.

[GreenKnight121]

Reinhardt your opinion means nothing to me... but India's contract history speaks for itself.

I don't know exactly what is in this contract... but I do know what the Sukhoi contract said.

I personally think that Rafale was the best choice for India... IF the contract is a fair one for both India & France.

[backseatjock]

Interesting article from widely read Indian tabloid newspaper India Today / Mail Today.

I can't open the link to see the full piece but the summary below gives a flavour.

Not making any comment other than 'Hmm' - the content may or may not be accurate, of course. I will leave readers to estabish their own views.

India Today

MoD officials question Rafale deal

The country's biggest defence deal for the purchase of 126. Rafale fighter jets, estimated to be worth around Rs.62,000 crore, seems to be running into rough weather.

Top government sources said on Friday that two senior officials of the ministry of defence (MoD), who are members of the contract negotiation committee, have questioned the methods adopted by it to conclude that French company

Dassault's Rafale had the lowest bid for the medium multi-role combat aircraft (MMRCA) deal.

The contract negotiation committee comprises senior officials from the MoD and the Indian Air Force.

The contract is yet to be vetted by the ministry of finance before it is finally approved by the Cabinet Committee on Security.

Rafale was declared as the lowest bid after the evaluation of the commercial bids made by the different companies to the MoD. Rafale had pipped British fighter jet Eurofighter Typhoon, while the other rivals from the US, Russia and Sweden were eliminated in different stages of competition.

MoD officials question Rafale deal : North News - India Today (http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/mod-officials-question-rafale-deal/1/174138.html)

[Two's in]

Genuine question. Where does the under current of loyalty to Typhoon come from?

From an industry viewpoint, thanks to decades of mismanagement and governmental myopia in the UK there is only one major aircraft manufacturer - Our chums at Big And Expensive (BAE) Systems. The aerospace sector of that business was building the following platforms;

Nimrod MRA4 - Gone
Harrier - Gone
Typhoon - Reducing order book as spending cuts take effect.
F-35 JSF - Please Sir Mr Lockheed, can I have my workshare back?

"Loyalty" is the wrong word, the last act of desperate business is more accurate. You don't need 10,000 engineers to build a slack handful of UAVs.

[Milo Minderbinder]

more about it on the Indian version of MSN (!)
Rafale deal flies into rough weather (http://news.in.msn.com/exclusives/it/article.aspx?cp-documentid=5857223)

"But highly placed sources said two senior officials of the defence ministry have questioned the methods adopted by the contract negotiation committee which concluded that Rafale was the lowest bidder.
The two officials - additional financial advisor and a joint secretary in the ministry Prem Kumar Kataria, and finance manager (air) R.K. Arora - are members of the negotiation committee that comprises senior ministry officials and Indian Air Force (IAF) officers.
The two officials noted that certain assumptions had been made about Rafale's bid to declare it as the lowest bidder, but no one had validated it. The officials initially refused to sign the minutes of the committee. They later signed after making their reservations known. They put written notes on the file on January 24, according to officials privy to the negotiations.
Sources say Defence Minister A.K. Antony wants to steer clear of any controversy and has instructed that the committee should settle the issue internally."

So the fat Buddha may not have started singing yet....

[jindabyne]

Mods. Do you want to waste BW on this topic for the next four years? For it will be at least that time before a purchase contract is signed, whatever the aircraft. Trust me. India :(

[HAWK21M]

How long before the order is signed.....

[racedo]

Seems like some Indian Mod people have been enjoying hospitality or no doubt that might be alledged..................

[BombayDuck]

I have read that Sukhoi's contract with India for Su-27/33 forbids India from making spare/replacement parts. All spares must be purchased from Russia at whatever price Russia demands.

Considering that HAL makes the Sukhoi 30MKI under licence in India, I really doubt that source of yours. :)

[GreenKnight121]

The source was someone within the manufacturing program.

They are allowed to build only parts for installation in new aircraft on the production line, and no more.

The repair parts supply system is fire-walled away from the production lines, with all repair parts coming through Sukhoi, no matter where those parts were made.

[BEagle]

Seems like some Indian MoD people have been enjoying hospitality or no doubt that might be alleged..................

Hmm - 'hospitality'. Fine French cuisine chez Marcel or tripe and trotters wi 't Bungling Baron Waste o' Space?

If that was the sole criterion, Eurofighter would never have stood a chance!

[Victor Inox]

It would be extremely charitable to believe that the Indian procurement process for a new fighter jet will be any better than the now infamous process for selling and allocating cellular frequency spectrum.

Whilst BAE are less than faultless themselves when it comes to transparent processes (e.g. Saudi Arabia), French marketing skills in the armaments business has been well documented throughout history. In more recent years, their submarine sales to Malaysia spring to mind.

[Shack37]

A little ray of hope?


Manipulation claim over Indian Rafale jet deal - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/transport/9163714/Manipulation-claim-over-Indian-Rafale-jet-deal.html)

[LowObservable]

British hopes were raised when the Typhoon performed best in trials..

Indian MP Mysura Reddy..... was also concerned by reports Rafales were outperformed by Typhoons in operations over Libya.

Jackonicko is clearly respected on the subcontinent...

[racedo]

Elements of clutching at straws I think.....

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Who on Earth is reporting that Typhoon outperformed Rafale in Libya??

:confused:

[wokawoka]

What? The jet which could not self designate and can only deliver one type of air to ground munition, oh and has not got a gun which funnily enough is now an important weapon for COIN CAS. Whatever.

[pr00ne]

Typhoon HAS got a gun and has had for years.

[Easy Street]

Typhoon has self-designated LGBs successfully. The reason they didn't do it over Libya was that funding for the flying hours required to train for it was withdrawn after the capability was proved in 2008. The force only had enough hours to maintain its core role of DCA. Given that fact, it reflects well on the chaps that they quickly resurrected EPW2 and successfully employed it (predominantly in GPS-guided mode - laser guidance is so 1990s!)

The Indians would have been briefed on this and would have seen the evidence from 2008, of that you can be virtually certain!

[Heathrow Harry]

Pr00ne - IIRC the MOD tried to cancel the gun in development to save costs and replace it with ballast but our German friends insisted - thank God!

[TEEEJ]

wokawoka wrote

....oh and has not got a gun....

The decision to not support the cannon in RAF service was reversed in 2006. The cannon is retained by all users of the Typhoon.

At a conference last week, Air Vice-Marshal David Walker, the officer commanding No 1 Group, which includes the Harrier and the newly-forming Typhoon squadrons, said he had decided to proceed with the Typhoon gun, buying ammunition, spares and maintenance equipment.

Typhoon wins gun dogfight - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/1530420/Typhoon-wins-gun-dogfight.html)

'Several pilots from the RAF's 3 Sqn - its first frontline unit to have received the Typhoon, initially for use only for air defence purposes - took part in the exercise, where around 700 rounds were also fired from the type's Mauser 27mm cannon. More work needs to be done with the reactivated weapon, but Atha says: "As a first step, we're there."

Eurofighter Typhoon proves close-air support credentials for RAF (http://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/eurofighter-typhoon-proves-close-air-support-credentials-for-raf-224826/)

[KAG]

The Telegraph... Right...
Like it was the first time this news paper was writing bullcr@p. (yes you read me, I wrote bullcr@p, I am the first one and it will become fashion soon... ;) )


Seems some have not accepted reality yet, well it doesn't really matter.

[ORAC]

India Mulls Big Jump in French Rafale Order (http://www.defensenews.com/article/20130117/DEFREG01/301170011/India-Mulls-Big-Jump-French-Rafale-Order?odyssey=tab|topnews|text|FRONTPAGE)

PARIS — India could buy up to 189 of the Rafale fighter jets currently being used by France to bomb Islamist militants in Mali, sources close to negotiations on the multi-billion dollar deal have told AFP.

The possibility of an additional 63 jets being added to an expected order for 126 was raised by India when Foreign Minister Salman Khurshid visited Paris last week, they said. “There is an option for procurement of an additional 63 aircrafts subsequently, for which a separate contract would need to be signed,” a source said. “Presently the contract under negotiation is for 126 aircraft, but we are talking about the follow-up.”

The Indian press has estimated the value of the deal for 126 Rafales at $12 billion (nine billion euros). A 50 percent increase in the number of planes ordered would take it to around $18 billion in a huge boost for the French defense industry.

India selected French manufacturer Dassault Aviation as its preferred candidate to equip its air force with new fighter jets in January 2012. Under the deal on the table, the first 18 Rafales would be built in France, but the next 108 would be assembled in India by Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.

“The first aircraft will be delivered three years after signature of the contract,” the source added. An industry expert said the time lag reflected India’s request for two-seater jets rather than the one-seater model that Dassault currently produces...........

[zero1]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Indians were after Naval and Land based aircraft hence the selection of the French aircraft.

I will get my coat....:*

[rigpiggy]

considering the cost of F35's maybe Canada should buy 130ish for 12B, and require final assembly/license production here

[BEagle]

Certain RCAF views about the excellence of the Rafale during the Libyan campaign have certainly been expressed to their leadership.... Dassault have also responded to a recent Canadian RFI.

Unlike the TypHoon, Rafale refuels extremely quickly from the CC-150T used by the RCAF, a significant issue when 8-ship formations are considered.

Rafale might well be capable of STOBAR from the RN's carriers with less modification to the carriers than would be required for F-18E/F/G...

[Trim Stab]

Rafale might well be capable of STOBAR from the RN's carriers with less modification to the carriers than would be required for F-18E/F/G...

Why the "might"? Surely it would just be a matter of asking the French for the plans to their carrier?

[kbrockman]

Rafale is a great piece of kit, would be even better with Eurojet's iso the M88's.

[Just This Once...]

Why the "might"? Surely it would just be a matter of asking the French for the plans to their carrier?

He said STOBAR.

[Trim Stab]

Point taken. But anyway, Dassault reckon Rafale is STOBAR capable:

Le Rafale Marine compatible avec les porte-avions dotés de tremplin | Mer et Marine (http://www.meretmarine.com/fr/content/le-rafale-marine-compatible-avec-les-porte-avions-dotes-de-tremplin)

[BEagle]

Point taken. But anyway, Dassault reckon Rafale is STOBAR capable:


That will depend upon the take-off run available and whether the ship is equipped with a ski-ramp.

Hence my use of 'might'.....:rolleyes:

[eaglemmoomin]

Correct me if I am wrong but the Indians were after Naval and Land based aircraft hence the selection of the French aircraft.

I will get my coat....

You're wrong!! The MMRCA is for the IAF only. The IN has already bought Mig 29M for their carriers and there is a Naval versioi of the Tejas also being proceured so they will eventually operate two types of FJ aircraft from their carriers.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

Rafale is a great piece of kit, would be even better with Eurojet's iso the M88's.
Does the Eurojet fits? And isn't it optimized (too much?) for high alt / high speed?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

It is seemingly irresistible to start swapping bits in perfectly serviceable aircraft. It always ends in tears, very expensive tears. May I politely suggest we just stick with the M88's?

[kbrockman]

It is seemingly irresistible to start swapping bits in perfectly serviceable aircraft. It always ends in tears, very expensive tears. May I politely suggest we just stick with the M88's?

I was just trying to make a point that the EJ200 would be better because it is a better engine, doesn't mean that they should start swapping it immediately, anyway the people at SNECMA are now upgrading the M88 from version 2 to 4, meaning the added possibility of max. 20000Lbs of thrust iso the original 17000.

France is going for the 4 version because of its improved reliability-lower maintenance costs, I think they are passing for the extra oomph for now.


As for possible engines, the F404/414 from GE, the Eurojet200 and M88 are all basically direct competitors thrust, size and weight-wise, the first Rafale ,the A, had F404 engines, same as the predecessor of the current Eurofighter.

[AlphaZuluRomeo]

I was just trying to make a point that the EJ200 would be better because it is a better engine
[disclaimer: genuine question] Better overall? How is that defined? I'm thinking thrust, weight, size, fuel consumption (hence fuel fraction), Ir "stealthness", price (tag), price (maintenance), reliability... and find myself unable to make an educated conclusion (I admit lacking knowledge on both engines).

France is going for the 4 version because of its improved reliability-lower maintenance costs, I think they are passing for the extra oomph for now.
Yes. There was a choice to make: You could not (if I understood correctly) have both the improved reliability and the extra-thrust.
The choice indeed was made in favor of keeping the 7.5t thrust with better reliabiliy/lower costs, instead of going to the 9t thrust version (which BTW also brings the need to redesign the intakes), deemed unnecessary.


As for possible engines, the F404/414 from GE, the Eurojet200 and M88 are all basically direct competitors thrust, size and weight-wise, the first Rafale ,the A, had F404 engines, same as the predecessor of the current Eurofighter.
Yes, but the Rafale A (demonstrator) was substancially bigger than the production aircrafts... Hence I fear we can't draw any conclusion, here ;)

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

I was just trying to make a point that the EJ200 would be better because it is a better engine

Not disputing your point about it being a better engine, but making a point about the process of doing refits, especially given the attitude of big industry/MoD which is that such things are a licence to make/waste money for years.

[Bob Viking]

Is it an autocorrect thing or do people still not realise that the subject of this thread is called the RAFALE?!

It is named after a term roughly translated as a volley of fire.

It is not named after either an Italian painter or a ninja turtle.

BV

Sorry, one of my pet hates.