Malev in financial trouble

[Cyrano]

Irish Times (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/breaking/2012/0130/breaking47.html) reports that Malev is in danger of imminent collapse.

[PAXboy]

That article quotes 22 a/c and 2,600 staff which = 118 per machine.

As I have said before, much more consolidation to come. Not nice for anyone but if the Euro rules about no state support are to be applied equally - then more carriers have to close and merge.

[jabird]

Looking at their fleet and route network, what need is there for Malev in this marketplace?

The days when countries were expected to have flagship carriers are long gone, and BUD offers little as a transit point that, say, PRG or WAW can't.

Sky Europe even once called themselves Slovakia's national airline, would another oneworld player step in to keep the routes going, or are they strategically more useful to the Lufthansa crowd than bmi were?

Ryanair have obviously smelt blood too with recent route launches, presumably Wizzair 'waiting in the wings' (excuse pun) to expand their BUD operation too?

[akerosid]

It is sad to see, whatever about the marketplace; MA has been in operation for around 50 years and has served Hungary right through the communist years and was one of the first Eastern Bloc airlines to operate western equipment (737-200).

The Hungarian govt has taken steps to offer some protection to the airline, protecting it from creditors (Hungarian equivalent of Ch 11?) and a new plan for the carrier is being drawn up. How legal this is under EU law remains to be seen. I do hope MA can survive.

JetPhotos.Net Photo » HA-LOA (CN: 28254) Malév Hungarian Airlines Boeing 737-7Q8 by John Fitzpatrick (http://www.jetphotos.net/viewphoto.php?id=6945299)

[lederhosen]

Malev belongs to the government having been renationalised. However the EU says they have to pay back $400 million of illegal state subsidies. So how the government can prop them up further is as yet unclear.

It is suggested they are operating under some form of chapter 11 equivalent. However presumably airports and fuel companies are going to insist on cash up front, which is going to make further operation at best complicated.

[Mark in CA]

More on this here:

PORTFOLIO.HU | Hungarian airline Malév seen on the brink of collapse (http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hungarian_airline_malev_seen_on_the_brink_of_collapse.23704. html)

[pee]

The Hungarian ministry of national development responded by saying it would do its best “to sustain the airline’s uninterrupted operation”, adding that discussions with a “strategic investor” were in progress.(Financial Times)

Strategic investor? Who on Earth would decide to put big money into this overstaffed and chronically failing airline? Unless... In fact, I can see some similarities between Viktor Orban conservative-nationalist government and Italian's Berlusconi. He also "mysteriously" saved Alitalia pouring "private" money into financially unsuccessful state enterprise. Is Orban looking for a similar solution in Hungary?

[Chidken Sangwich]

See my original post on this.

http://www.pprune.org/airlines-airports-routes/473758-malev-ordered-eu-repay-state-support.html

Its about time the idiots in BRU levelled the playing field.

[lederhosen]

A result similar to Alitalia would seem at least one of the options. It is probable that Orban will not want to see his national airline totally disappear. If the old airline and half the jobs vanish he can blame it on Bruxelles and the new slimmed down Malev 2 can carry on where they left off.

[Fairdealfrank]

"Its about time the idiots in BRU levelled the playing field."

It's about time "the idiots in Brussels" stopped interfering in everything. Regretfully it's sovereign governments that allow it. It's a convenient excuse: "Brussels won't let me do it" or, other contexts, "Nick Clegg won't let me do it".

MA isn't the only carrier in trouble in that neck of the woods, LO and OK are also in difficulties. Maybe an SAS-type arrangement could help: "Central European Airways"? Unfortunately each airline is in a different alliance.

Another one for IAG?

[LD12986]

Another one for IAG?

Not a chance. They passed on Air Berlin, and I doubt they'd touch on Malev.

[PAXboy]

jabirdThe days when countries were expected to have flagship carriers are long gone
I agree but thousands of politicians - right around the globe - don't agree!

[Mark in CA]

More:

PORTFOLIO.HU | Hungary prepares for possible stop of Malév flights (http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hungary_prepares_for_possible_stop_of_malev_flights.23721.ht ml)

[Mark in CA]

And even more:

PORTFOLIO.HU | Hungary Malév gets state liquidator (http://www.portfolio.hu/en/economy/hungary_malev_gets_state_liquidator.23725.html)

[pee]

That's over now. Isn't it?

2012. február 3-án 06:00 órakor leállt a Malév (http://malev.com/)

Google translation:
The Board decided that in order to minimize the damage order the Hungarian national airline to cease operation. Accordingly, on February 3 6:00 pm, almost 66 years of continuous operation after Malév aircraft are not taken up.

"Unfortunately, the patterns, making the best we held, and which have worked hard to avoid. Although in recent days there was still hope to resume operations, and passenger confidence was undiminished, but in recent days appeared to cause the information service provider partners have lost their trust, and from one day to another, began to ask for advance payment of the services they provide. This speeded up the cash outflow to the extent that the airline has now become untenable situation. It is also known that the owner, despite the best intentions, the EU condemned the decision, after unable to provide additional financial resources to operate. Against this background, the Board decided to order the Hungarian national airline-like operations to cease operation. All utasunktól apologize. "

[pee]

And in proper English:
Hungarian national airline Malév announced Friday morning that it was ceasing operation, after having failed to come up with a solution to the company's ongoing financial troubles.

Passengers at Budapest airport were informed this morning at 7:00 a.m. that all outbound flights were cancelled.

In a statement published on malev.com the company said that ticket holders would be informed by customer services about alternate travel arrangements and compensation.

Individuals impacted by the shutdown can call the following phone numbers: 06-40-21-21-21 from within Hungary, and +36-802-11-11 from outside the country.

On Tuesday the government issued a decree providing assistance to any passengers who purchased tickets for flights scheduled no more than three days after a shutdown in operations, as well as those who have traveled abroad with the airline and who are scheduled to return before the end of February.

"Unfortunately, what we feared the most and did everything to everything to avoid has come to pass," the company said in a statement. "Although there was still hope until the past few days that the operation could continue and passenger still fully trusted us, news reports in the recent few days has caused our service partners to lose trust and overnight began to demand advance payments for their services. This has accelerated our cash outflow to such an extent that the airlines condition has become untenable. It is also known that the owner, despite its best efforts, cannot continue to provide financial resources for our operation after the EU's negative decision. In light of all the above, the Board has decided to end the operation of the Hungarian national airlines. We apologize to all our passengers."

The firm's leaders will hold a press conference at 8:00 a.m. to offer further information.
(source) (http://www.caboodle.hu/nc/news/news_archive/single_page/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=9612)

[Phileas Fogg]

It'll probably be another Swissair, Sabena type scenario with a replacement Hungarian national airline starting up PDQ.

A shame though, some years ago I travelled STN-BUD-ODS-BUD-STN with MALEV and it was a very pleasant experience, good service, nice aircraft etc.

[JSCL]

Indeed, have traveled Malev ones. Couldn't fault them. Such a shame to see another airline of this size go under in such a short period of time.

[nivsy]

I have a ticket booked ex LGW for sometime in may with Malev to BUD. Ah well. :ugh:Looks as if Easy and Ryanair are the only "safe" carriers these days. What a shame. I remeber fondly as a young chap in '85 on the terrance at Budapest airport. Think I have some nice shots back then on IL18's and TU 134's and 154's proudly in Malev colour schemes.

Nivsy

[MAN777]

For any spotters out there or anyone generally interested the majority of the B737 fleet is expected over the north of England shortly

(Info from a spotters forum)

**Now delayed as apparently the Malev pilots are refusing to fly them**


expected over OTBED between 1600 & 1645 (eta Shannon 1705 - 1750) to route over Manchester and via PENIL

in flight plan order - but not guaranteed to pass over in this order or during the filed times - non airborne as yet)

HA-LOK B738 MAH5200
HA-LOM B738 MAH5248
HA-LOH B738 MAH5224
HA-LOU B738 MAH5212
HA-LOC B738 MAH5236
HA-LOL B737 MAH5250
HA-LOS B737 MAH5300
HA-LOR B737 MAH5336
HA-LOE B736 MAH5348
HA-LOD B736 MAH5324
HA-LOF B736 MAH5350
HA-LOG B736 MAH5376
HA-LOJ B736 MAH5400
HA-LON B736 MAH5412

[Charlie Roy]

Where are all those Malev aircraft going?
Are they the property of a certain leasing company?

Meanwhile Ryanair, Wizzair and many national carriers swooping in today to lap up Malev's routes. There'll be no new national carrier arising from the Malev ashes.

[MAN777]

To Shannon returning to Leasing company ILFC

[LN-KGL]

Three of them are now in the air over Germany and the Netherlands
HA-LOK is leading the pack followed by HA-LOU and HA-LOH (all B738s).

[thebig C]

I know the days of Flag Carriers are diminishing but still, its sad to see such a venerable airline fall from grace.

Strangely, back in Communist days Malev was one of the better run Eastern Bloc carriers prefering to focus on an all Tupolev fleet and Medium Haul routes to support tourism rather then have prestige long range and thirsty IL-62s.

Sadly, the writing has been on the wall for several years. The privitisation was extremely drawn out and then Malev was sold to the now defunct Russian group AirBridge. Their only action was to order more Russian aircraft....Sukhoi 100s. Renationialisation followed once AirBridge had their own troubles at home. You would wonder how Malev would have fared had one of the other Consortiums triumphed in the bidding. Maybe enough reforms would have been made , as there were several experienced aviation industry from Western Europe (including an ex EI excutive). Then again, one of the under bidders was FlyLAL!

I can see the merits of the position regarding State aid. However, when Europe permits AF-KLM merger you can't help but think that their isn't a level playing field.

Good luck to all the staff.

[propburner]

6 more heading for snn at the moment HA-LOD, HA-LON, HA-LOJ,HA-LOF all 737-600 currently over Prague and HA-LOC 737-800 HA-LOR 737-700 just departed Budapest. 14 in total heading for Snn tonight all ILFC aircraft.
ILFC and SNN in for a busy night.

[propburner]

Recruitment Day in Budapest!

Ryanair will be holding a recruitment day in Budapest on Tuesday next (7th Feb), inviting job applications to help Ryanair gear up for its 4 aircraft, 2m passenger p.a. base at Budapest Airport.
The recruitment day will be held in Airport Hotel Budapest.
Address: 2200 Vecses, Lorinci u. 130/A.
Presentation for Engineers will start at 10:00.
Presentation for Pilots will start at 14:00.
Details of a recruitment day for Cabin crew will follow.
All applicants must be fluent in English and have the unrestricted right to work in the EU.
Please bring you full CV in English with you on the day.

[jabird]

OK, I'm not surprised, but this is still a shame.

Don't national carriers usually die a much slower death than this? I'm trying to remember back to the Swissair > Swiss changeover, how long did that take?

[Mr A Tis]

Ryanair have announced 31 new routes from Budapest starting in 2 weeks time.
I guess that kind of scuppers any hope of a Malev 2 happening a la Swiss/ Swissair - Sabena / SN Brussels scenario.
Very sad to see this once great carrier disappear forever.
Good luck all.

[jabird]

I note they've added MAN, which MA didn't serve (v LS) - but nothing new added for London. Surely that market warrants more than the alreeady announced route to STN? MA used LGW, not MOL's favourite airport, but far from his least favourite (LHR) either.

[fabo]

Currently at my parents house which is under the approach path into Shannon. In the past 30 minutes there was a queue of 6 aeroplanes which appeared to have multi-coloured tails (tail logo lights were on but it's still diffucult to make out for sure)... Normally it's dead quiet this time of night.

Those Malev 737's must have arrived.

[Phileas Fogg]

Sabena ceased operations during November 2001, SN Airlines did not commence until 2002. Likewise, Swissair became grounded during October 2001 yet Swiss International didn't commence until April 2002.

Of course, during the interims, the other operators would have been in there trying to pick up business and routes but, as with MALEV, there is a market for national and full service airlines, surely nobody is suggesting that all the nationals of Hungary will be satisfied to fly with the likes of Ryanair and Wizzair or indeed any foreign national carriers ... they'd like their own national carrier please.

This has all happened so quickly nobody has had time to catch their breath yet ... but when they do!

[jabird]

Of course, during the interims, the other operators would have been in there trying to pick up business and routes but, as with MALEV, there is a market for national and full service airline

Is there are market? Yes, of course there is.

Is the market big enough to sustain a national carrier, or even a base operation from an existing full service provider, and for them to do so at a profit? Much less likely.

It goes down to the old saying - yes, there's a new gap in the market, but is there a market in the gap?

Switzerland is a completely different county compared to Hungary - far wealthier, and good demand for premium yields from three key cities - finance, biotech and much more in ZRH + hinterland, chemicals in Basel, ngos in GVA and the rest. Belgium has the eurocrats.

I'm sure the vultures will do very well out of the Malev demise, but I'm not sure they will leave many scraps for a network carrier to feed on.

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

Never mind the Boeing/Airbus sized operation, Malev also previously operated F70's and more recently Q400's and CRJ Pocket Rockets .... the likes of Ryanair and/or Wizzair are only in business to shift in bulk and from point to point.

Such airlines in mid Europe are ideally placed to connect east and west Europe, the time I flew with MALEV it was because I was travelling to/from Odessa where few international carriers operate to/from. Austrian Airlines make a killing connecting east and west operating their 'Tyrolean' Pocket Rockets and/or Puddle Jumpers to/from these regional airports in eastern Europe and just check out the fares Austrian charge to/from such airports as DNK and/or HRK ... and I can tell you that they get good load factors on such routes also.

It's not all about Airbus's nor Boeing's nor is it all about being cheap and cheerful.

http://www.airlineroutemaps.com/Europe_2/img/Malev_Hungarian_europe.gif

[jabird]

Never mind the Boeing/Airbus sized operation, Malev also previously operated F70's and more recently Q400's and CRJ Pocket Rockets .... the likes of Ryanair and/or Wizzair are only in business to shift in bulk and from point to point.

That's a fair point, but I would still wonder how an airline would come together with a business plan to make a hub operation at BUD work.

How many hubs are there just using those aircraft - AND providing meaningful connections? Perhaps the old Sabena were somewhere up that street - I recall going through BRU once and there must have been getting on for 10 146/Avros queing up for take off. They also offered very fast connection, and even put us cattle up towards the front if we needed a speedy one.

BUT - that operation was horribly expensive. Does even the re-re-re-launched Brussels airlines make money? I was in Berlin, in the queue for the Reichstag and desperate to see the new dome before I headed back home. I remember calling them and asking what time check-in would close for their flight from THF. 'Oh Mr J, about 20 minutes before departure - try and be there by then if you can, give or take 5 minutes'.

Flybe have the kind of fleet you mention, and they've recently really started pushing the connections they send via CDG + a few of their own routings. Obviously, they've done the Finnish deal.

Something for them perhaps?

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

It's like many a main hub airport, there are few routes that can be, profitably, served by the larger aircraft unless the thru connections are offered and many of these feeder routes will only be profitable if served by the smaller aircraft types.

You mention FlyBE but, so often, LoCo's only operate at inconvenient (wrong) times of day for both business and leisure travellers alike ..... by example if, as I did, one is travelling LON/BUD/ODS one would like to depart LON at a reasonable time of morning to arrive in ODS at a reasonable time of afternoon/evening and vice versa.

MALEV had a few sizes of B737, they obviously needed them to, well atleast make the effort, operate route(s) cost effectively, Ryanair and Wizzair both, each, operate just the one type of aircraft(s) restricting their route viability.

[jabird]

You mention FlyBE but, so often, LoCo's only operate at inconvenient (wrong) times of day for both business and leisure travellers alike

Timings can only ever be as good as the route offered at the time. The key difference is that locos use their equipment more intensely - but all airlines will want to be airborne as soon as poss in the morning, and maybe locos will keep running a bit later, but that's sometimes as much down to the airports as anything else.

by example if, as I did, one is travelling LON/BUD/ODS one would like to depart LON at a reasonable time of morning to arrive in ODS at a reasonable time of afternoon/evening and vice versa.

I agree entirely - but how long you spend in BUD - or now PRG or WAW is going to extend your day just as much as when you depart LON or arrive in ODS.

Unfortunately, these are still niche markets - otherwise there's be routes there from the usual connections hubs that also have good, often multiple daily feeds from the regionals - esp AMS, CDG & FRA.

In the meantime, TK do IST-ODS, fed from BHX, MAN & various LON, but I haven't checked timings.

MALEV had a few sizes of B737, they obviously needed them to, well atleast make the effort, operate route(s) cost effectively, Ryanair and Wizzair both, each, operate just the one type of aircraft(s) restricting their route viability.

Very true, but they both serve some incredibly random seeming routes with their 189 seaters! If they would otherwise be oversized, they drop frequency, or take a hit on yield.

I haven't done a route count of where MA went compared to the 31 routes FR have launched - is that map recent? DUB & ORK?

Also, if their LON airport was LGW, I'm sure BA can take the extra slack at LHR, but wouldn't MOL want to take on Easy @ LGW?

[MAN777]

B737 MALEX x 7 Tx12 | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/shanair/6816517187/in/photostream)

[Hotel Tango]

Any news on where the Dash 8s are going - or are they staying in BUD for the time being?

[PPRuNeUser0176]

The B737 is still in DUB since Thursday night. A Dash 8 was due in DUB at 21.25 yesterday but it didn't position in.

[j636]

Shannon benefits from airline closure - The Irish Times - Sat, Feb 04, 2012 (http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/finance/2012/0204/1224311249374.html#.Ty0MSf7rPU4.twitter)


It is understood Malev has reached agreement with the lessor that the aircraft will remain in Shannon for a time in the event the airline can resume operations.


On the topic of them being in SNN a further 12 Spanair aircraft are due early next week.

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

Obviously MALEV's website is down, I got that map from searching in Google Images, not sure if it is recent or not though.

Slightly off topic someone, only yesterday, asked me for advice regarding travelling to Moscow and St Petersburg, a two centre holiday.

On CHEAP FLIGHTS | Find Airline Tickets & Discount Airfares | Fly.com (http://www.fly.com) I checked out an open jaw return flying outward MAN/MOW and returning LED/MAN for some random dates in March ... return fares started as low as £187.00 and without a LoCo in sight!!!

That's the sort of services these mid Europe carriers offer, this is the sort of business they're there for, it's not all point to point and 189 people at a time.

[Leslie2709]

Malev ceased operating at 06.00 GMT on Friday 03 February 2012. R.I.P.

[jabird]

PF,

return fares started as low as £187.00 and without a LoCo in sight!!!

You didn't say where they were routed via :=

I don't doubt the usefulness of an east-west hub for one moment. My question was whether or not such a hub can exist in a way that makes a profit for all concerned.

I don't expect loco to Russia anytime soon from the UK - see thread on Caucasus for a bit more on that. Nor do I expect the locos to provide all things to all people - but they still have their use, look how quickly MOL has been to "rescue" (out of the goodness of his heart of course) BUD routes - obviously much easier in the off season of course!

CSA used to feed into PRG from STN, BHX, MAN and iirc EDI, offering the very kind of connections you mention - now all gone. LO & OS might offer something useful, but only via London.

So if there's a place to serve these markets that is still to the west of CDG & AMS, surely it is CPH or FRA? Germany already has many more flights to Russia - simple question of geography makes more sense to support such routes (iirc 7 options from FRA with LH alone).

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

Ever heard of 'freedom of choice'? :)

[jabird]

Ever heard of 'freedom of choice'?

Ever heard of the phrase 'profit' and 'airlines' in the same sentence? :=

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

I didn't mention the carrier or where they were routing via because I appreciate the sensitivities of (unpaid for) commercial advertising!

You talk of LoCo's to Russia ... here we go again, please don't believe for one minute that the all the travelling public want to travel with a, so called, LoCo because they don't, particularly when full service airlines can, often, be cheaper than these so called LoCo's.

Yes, I appreciate airlines need to profit hence, in the case of B737's operating to/from, let's say, Budapest, there are only so many people that want to travel to/from BUD so 'let's' fill the aircraft up with thru connections.

October 2011 I travelled LHR-HKG-CEB with a particular Hong Kong based carrier, you might guess the one, but if I'd only wanted to travel LHR-HKG the fare would have been some 30% more expensive than travelling LHR-HKG-CEB ... but the airline are still in business and presumably making a profit.

And it was commonplace when travelling with a particular Zurich based carrier, travelling LHR/BHX/MAN to/from, let's say, Italy via ZRH was normally and significantly cheaper than flying just to/from ZRH.

Have all these carriers got it so wrong? :)

[jabird]

PF,

I fully agree with everything you say in your last post.

(I could point you to other stuff I've said on that very subject, but I respect forum rules too. You could have mentioned the airline as I don't think that's an issue on a forum about airlines & routes).

I just don't think there's enough room in the market for another Malev, especially using a similar sized frame that the very locos you quite reasonably don't like are using.

As it happens, let's say I did want to go to MOW next month, from BHX, my local airport. Malev couldn't have helped anyway - unless a private backer came along and pumped some funding in for a new fleet, including the very regionals we both agree would be needed to make it work.

Whilst I agree about connections supplementing o&d, within Europe at least, most hubs are based much more around the latter than the former (possible exceptions FRA & AMS based on population, but they both have massive hinterlands and key business centres).

So it would be much more natural to be fed through WAW, but where is the inbound from BHX, or anywhere in UK apart from LHR?

In one respect, I will stand corrected - I had thought BUD was quite a bit smaller than PRG, when it is actually slightly larger (both in 1-2m bracket), and respective countries both around 10m. However, economically, Czech Rep is some way ahead, and I would imagine Prague is still a much bigger tourist city. I'll declare a slight bias - my maternal grandmother was from Prague.

Either way - OK dumped their UK regionals some while ago, and they don't do LHR either. For a transfer hub to be useful, it needs to be fed from the regional cities aswell as from London.

So whilst I don't doubt the potential usefulness of PRG, BUD, WAW - or anywhere else in this region as a transfer point, it is only a facility that can be offered by the right airline with the right fleet.

And I'm afraid, that clearly wasn't Malev.

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

I'm not familiar with the precise problems that caused MALEV so much debt but, only a few years ago, I became aware that the national carrier of Romania was/is lumbered with so many staff, compared against size of fleet, that they were/are the subject of ridicule ..... and once such staffing levels are in place, particularly amongst Flight Operations personnel, they can be difficult to shift.

Sabena Flight Operations personnel had such a bad reputation that many an operator wouldn't touch them with a bargepole in the years that followed, SN Airlines replaced Sabena with, I'm guessing, a much leaner operation, gone is all the Flight Operations seniority, inflated salaries and, perhaps, troublemakers and/or militancy and, since merging with Virgin Express, has made a go of it.

One could say that such a small country as Belgium, sandwiched between Air France, KLM and Lufthansa, there was no need any longer for a Belgium national carrier, well if that was said then it seems SN Brussels Airlines have proved any nayer's wrong, are you so sure that a new and leaner Hungarian national airline couldn't make a go of things?

And might you be suggesting that if anything were to happen to the UK national carrier then the UK travelling public would settle for travelling with the likes of Air France, Lufthansa and an Irish low cost carrier that has an appalling reputation? :)

[tornadoken]

This week's Flight, quite unusually, chooses to list carriers they see as doomed by EU Commission actually implementing the Competition Rules passed by Ministers. They choose to list the proud owners of Lingus and TAP as desperate to unload, both seen as of interest only to IAG. They choose to cite Air Malta and Adria as on life support.

In 1988 even before we could be our own travel agency online, a Prof. at Cranfield U. forecast 4 global carriers plus a bunch of bugsmashers. He coined the name Royal Ameripore A/L. Today they are Star, OneWorld and Skyteam -each of which is one carrier when we construct multiple sectors on the site.

There is no point in railing against LoCo "bad reputation". They operate bus, not limo. If they receive taxpayers' munificence it is by ports' invitation - such as in subsidised charges. If firm A can offer you a service without grasping your taxes, then you would be foolish to patronise firm B who your taxes make fat and dumb. The same Flight piece notes Air France's inability to understand that.

[Cyrano]

They choose to list the proud owners of Lingus and TAP as desperate to unload, both seen as of interest only to IAG.
I wouldn't be sure that IAG is the only game in town; indeed in the case of Aer Lingus, Willie Walsh has repeatedly ruled out an IAG bid. However Etihad hasn't gone away, you know. (http://www.businessweek.com/news/2012-02-09/etihad-chief-mulls-purchases-has-examined-aer-lingus-potential.html)

[Steviec9]

Just come through SNN. Counted at least 8 Malev planes parked up.

[jabird]

tornadoken - exactly.

PF - You can't compare BRU with BUD, totally different motivations to travel, totally different economies. Now I was about to say 'where was the Hungarian empire (oops)' - but seriously, Brussels Airlines serve around 20 African destinations, most of which are not served from LHR. They have a mixed fleet, so they are a totally different kettle of fish, compared to what Malev were.

Could an airline operate a network of routes not covered by the likes of Wizz / Ryan from BUD? As I said before, maybe something along the lines of Flybe Nordic - but even that is still feeding a bigger parent.

Where is there a hub operation based entirely on sub 150 seaters - excluding island hoppers? Did AF not have such a facility at CFE, now long gone?

[Phileas Fogg]

A hub operation based on entirely sub 150 seaters?

Well one that springs to mind is 'just down the road' from Budapest in Timisoara!

[Cyrano]

.

Where is there a hub operation based entirely on sub 150 seaters - excluding island hoppers? Did AF not have such a facility at CFE, now long gone?

AF did indeed have a hub at CFE, based on aircraft down to 19 seats. Air Littoral had a NCE hub in the mid-90s using CRJs and ATRs. And arguably the daddy of them all in Europe was Crossair in BSL in its (brief) heyday.

However the steadily rising cost of fuel and the emergence of LCCs (with consequent impact on passengers' price expectations) has made it harder and harder for this kind of operation to stay competitive...

[PAXboy]

A new mode of transport begins: Ship/train/plane/coach/car
A second route or competition on the first opens
Prices and service quality go up and down but reach a balance
Situation persists and becomes 'the norm' some new companies start but are not able to gain a strong enough place, or work small routes out of direct competition
The rules are changed: by govt or by new technology
Several new companies start up and prices drop, everyone very excited
Prices and service quality go up and down but reach a balance
Situation persists and becomes 'the norm' ...
Repeat.

If you would like another example? In the UK, the supply of electricty was changed by the then Conservative govt in the 1990s (cannot recall exact date). People were very excited that they could save money. Here is a headline from The Independent of today:
Big Six suppliers heading for bumper profits and bonuses as more than 5.5 million UK homes hit by fuel poverty.

[jabird]

Well one that springs to mind is 'just down the road' from Budapest in Timisoara!

I think that is pushing the definition of a hub, but it does serve quite a few niche routes, and I even managed to get ARW-VCE for a mere £144! IIRC, haven't Carpatair served LTN too?

TSR may only handle c. 1m pax pa, but I'd say it kicks above its weight considering the city itself is only 300k. I'd love to know its split between o&d and transfer.

I bet the PSC at BUD is still quite a bit higher though. Your other problem would be that a lot of the 'goodwill' for Malev is already sitting in SNN. The locos have cherrypicked the good routes. So you would be left with serving niche destinations, feeding other people's hubs that FR & W6 don't want to go near (CPH, ZRH etc) and then going head to head on routes with enough room for 2 or more carriers.

It is still very tall order.

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

In a previous life I was in TSR on a number of occasions on 'Carpatair' business and TSR is most definately a hub operation and Carpatair personnel even refer to each, morning and afternoon, turnaround of the fleet as "the hub".

Each night the fleet overnights at these regional airports and each morning descends upon TSR where the punters all play musical aeroplanes before the fleet then head off to their 'western' destinations before a reverse of this said operation takes place each afternoon before the fleet head off for another night in the 'outback'.

To see their, then, fleet of something like 13 S2000's to, particularly, arrive TSR as if they are a squadron is quite something to see, I've ridden the jump seat in to TSR, TSR doesn't have radar and with something like 13 PDQ inbounds ATC just do the radio whilst the fleet maintain their own 3 minutes seperation which is just enough time for each aircraft to land then backtrack the runway and vacate before the next one lands etc.

I've also stood in the TSR terminal more times than I care to remember and not so many passengers join at TSR, it's mainly a hub operation.

http://worldairlinenews.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/carpatair-2012-route-map.jpg?w=606

And not forgetting the Moldavian Airlines Home Page (http://www.mdv.md) side of the Carpatair operation!

But ..... correct me if I am wrong but didn't Lufthansa build the DUS hub on sub 150 seaters and it is only through popularity that 150+ seaters may now be part of the DUS hub?

I would often be transitting thru DUS and I recall it being, pretty much, LH CRJ's, 146's & ATR's with just an odd B737 or similar ... to travel all the way BHX/KBP/BHX on 50 seater pocket rockets was quite an experience. :)

P.S. I don't believe Carpatair have ever operated a UK schedule as UK is beyond the effective range of a S2000 and, more recently, perhaps, a Fokker is too large for such a route. They tried S2000's to/from CDG, a long way in a Saab and, quite often, they found themselves utilizing a F100 (they didn't have F70's at the time) on the route but for S2000 loads!

[captplaystation]

Had you noticed that Carpatair are starting a base on 26/03 in Chisinau with a B733 operating to Italian destinations. Anyhow, sorry for thread drift, this is the Malev thread.

[PAXboy]

Interesting, Phileas Fogg and thanks. What was the S2000? Cannot find on Airliners under that name.

[captplaystation]

Saab 2000, turboprop.

[Phileas Fogg]

PAXboy,

The world's most advanced turboprop ... but don't let that worry you. :)

[Charlie Roy]

Hainan to indefinitely suspend Budapest-Beijing service - Caboodle.hu (http://www.caboodle.hu/nc/news/news_archive/single_page/?tx_ttnews%5Btt_news%5D=9632)

Hainan suspends Budapest - Beijing as a result of code share partner Malev's demise.