Turboprop command or jet F/O

[bavarian-buddy]

Hey guys. Most of the time I only do read here, but now I have a topic to throw in here.
Right now I am a F/O on the Q400 with some 2000+ hours on type, age in the late 20ies. This year I will have the choice between upgrade on the Q400 or moving onto our E195 fleet as an F/O (which would nail me for at least 3 to 5 years there).
I know that there is no definite answer to this question and that I will have to do the decision on my own at the end, but I wanted to hear some different opinions about this topic (and i also know that some guys would murder for having this luxury problem ;) ).
So what's more worth in your opinion? I am sure I won't stay more than lets say 5 years in this company. My goal is doing some freight (maybe DHL, TNT) one day.
I think that there are only few companies out there that hire captains back onto their RHS, or am I wrong?

[PT6Driver]

Unless you want to retire with your present company you will at some point have to move on. The questions are: how desperate you are to move? How soon do you want to move? Where do you see yourself going? What is plan B should your first options fail.

Once you have answered the above you need to look at what these companies you wish to go to under plan A and B are actualy wanting from aplicants. Then tailor your career to meet the requirements.

My opinion is that nobody gives a s*@* about Q400 command time and that the jet time would be of more value (so long as you wish to move) Also 195 is more than 50,000kg MTOW. This would make you far more marketable than Command Q4.

Command Q4 will only be useful to other TP operators and your present company.

[Caboclo]

Conventional wisdom used to say "never pass up a command opportunity". In my personal experience, t-prop command time is worthless. Only jet time matters.

[CaptainProp]

Take jet FO position, wait for your command. Once you have 1000-1500 hrs PIC you can apply for most non type rated direct entry jobs on A320 / B737 if you wish to move on.

Good luck!

[Megaton]

Where do you want to end up? Some employers, BA for example, couldn't give two hoots if you have turboprop command time so make your move towards your long term career aspiration as soon as you can. Don't hang on for command or, even, jet time.

[flyer19832007]

Similar choice.... How much jet time is really enough?

1000hrs will get you into pretty much any airline except EK if thats your end goal.

[7Q Off]

Jet time allways. :ok:

[bavarian-buddy]

My plan A is to end up at a European freighter company. EAT, DHK (would be nice because of base LEJ as a German), TNT, Cargolux (Thats plan A+)
Plan B: A more stable company than my current one within Europe. Could be freight, pax or GA, whatever ;)
Plan C if everything goes wrong is the sandpit :E
It's not like I want to move from my current company, but I am pretty sure that I will have to in the next few years. And the earlier I find another one, the better of course.

[flyer19832007]

In that case if all else fails.....which obviously we all hope doesnt.... Q4 Command will only see you into QR, EY and EK out..... For now at least.

[4468]

If you want to fly TPs for the rest of your life, then go for your command. If you ever want to make the move to jets, then take the very first jet job you are offered.

Simples!

[flyaway777]

Plan C if everything goes wrong is the sandpit

If you are referring to EK, it isn't exactly a box ticking exercise. You still have to do the biz during selection!

[Iver]

I'd take E195 FO position. You have enough prop time.

[bavarian-buddy]

Maybe sandpit as plan C sounded pejorative. Of course it's not like "here I am, you have to take me". EK may be a great company to work for, but the sandpit woudn't be my lifestyle. But that's another topic.


And btw: I do not work for flybe right now ;)

[FlyTCI]

I would personally take the jet. I got stuck with those spinning things (props) way too long and evev though I am now in a jet I feel my low jet time definitively hurts my chances moving to a new job should I so choose. Also, you'll get another type on your license which doubles your options in search of work in the future. The EMB170/190 series is becoming a popular type now days, and it would even allow you to venture into the VIP part of aviation on the Lineage should you ever want to try that.

[break_break]

Prop command is a thing in the past, unless you love it for some weird reasons. I got out more than a couple of decades ago and was just glad I did. Although I did have some proper planets alignment to fast track my jet command, being at the right place, right time.

In today's context, Jet time it is. Don't bother with the useless prop hours. All the best.

[Teddy Robinson]

Jet.... no question.

[Oldaircrew]

Props are for boats!!

[macdo]

sadly, jets is the correct answer. I was in this position with TP Cmnd or ERJ145 FO, after choosing the 145, suddenly the big airlines were interested and off I went to a decent job. That was at a time of high unemployment in the UK. The problem seems to be getting stuck in the TP department while the PTF FO's sail above you into the jet jobs, where,once there, they will always be above you on the seniority list, no matter how much TP p1 you may have. The only real balance to this argument is if the quality of your domestic/social life will significantly deteriorate by moving jobs, I have met people who have left small regional outfits, gone for the big time job, hated it and come back again.

[CaptainProp]

The problem seems to be getting stuck in the TP department while the PTF FO's sail above you into the jet jobs, where,once there, they will always be above you on the seniority list, no matter how much TP p1 you may have.

This is unfortunately the state of aviation in Europe, and its not going to change any time soon. Experience in "real flying" and hard work is not appreciated any more as there are armies of P2F "pilots" waiting to sell their souls....sorry, let me rephrase that - They are waiting to PAY to sell their souls!! :uhoh::mad:

[UN614]

Similar situation here although I already have 2000hrs on a 50t jet. A TP command is now available. I fancy a change and the money wouldn't hurt.

It's not like it makes any difference what your experience is these days, if you have more than 200hrs and are not willing to work for free then you don't stand a chance anyway.

I'd say take the command and the extra money.

[chip22]

Hi! I see many perspectives here and I must say that most of the people here are crazy for the shiney jets which I quite understand BUT here's mine: I spent 9 years in the right seat with my present company on the 737 CL and NG and I really enjoyed the most of it.With current future lookouts in Europe it would have been another 6 years to swap seats so I was really happy to take on the TP command when it was offered and never regretted it.If you stuck in the right seat for whatever reason after a while you loose interest and ambition and it is hard to recover from that situation. All I can say is that one of my well respected instructor said that is better be a cpt on a TP than an FO on the space shuttle.

cheers

[Knee Trembler]

Had a lively exchange with Norman Stanley Fletcher (Easyjet) about this subject a few years ago.

FWIW, I'm one of three former Q400 capts to make the jump from LHS turbo prop to LHS A300-600. It was really no big deal and we all managed the course in minimum time.

IMHO, what counts is the quality of the operator and not type you fly. That said, not all employers are as broad-minded as ours and you will quite likely come up against the 'TP hours are worth nothing' mentality from time to time so it's a hard one to call.

Good luck whatever you choose.

[CaptainProp]

I really think the days of TP lhs to jet lhs in new company are gone...in Europe anyway....

[Jetjock330]

Take the jet time!

The first question they will ask you when you you turn thirty and they need a commander will be "how much jet time do you have?"

Turbo prop command time will count for nothing ( Of my 16209 hours, 7000hrs command on the turbo prop, I should know, the rest is jet time)

Take the jet time, it all counts, every last minute;)

[Iver]

With jet time (on something like an E170 or E195), at least you will have the "option" to be considered by some of the Middle Eastern airlines - IF THAT IS OF INTEREST TO YOU. The Middle East is certainly not for everyone - but that is where the growth is located. You will not get looked at by those airlines if you are in the LHS on the Q400 - at least that is what I have heard. So, if you want that option (you are open to it), then getting jet time now makes more sense.

You have to decide what you want - if you want to fly for BA in the future, then maybe Q400 Captain time makes more sense and make you more competitive and you can afford to wait it out. I've heard the Q400 is lovely to fly and a great experience builder - but you already have that experience as an FO. If you need jet time now because you might be interested in flying in the Middle East, the E195 FO seat makes more sense for the time being. Decide what you want in terms of future options and then make your decision.

Good luck!

[VeroFlyer]

JET...next question?!?!?!?!

[bavarian-buddy]

This is unfortunately the state of aviation in Europe, and its not going to change any time soon. Experience in "real flying" and hard work is not appreciated any more as there are armies of P2F "pilots" waiting to sell their souls....sorry, let me rephrase that - They are waiting to PAY to sell their souls!! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/worry.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif

Aviation is so wrong right now. I love my q400 and would really like to fly it on the LHS. But seems like I have to take the jet, just to have it in the CV.

[UN614]

Could someone tell me where I'm going to take my 2000 Ejet hours? Easy, Ryan, monarch, Thomson, Thomas Cook?? All of those are either cadet only employers or type rated only. BA and jet2 will take you with TP command time and the sandpit isn't for me (and many others).

You are all talking like its still 2007 and airlines care what experience you have. Times have changed and it really doesn't matter any more, in fact the less experience the better. Unless you're rated or ready to take a shafting you're not going anywhere so take the option that pays the most and try and retire ASAP.

[ReverseFlight]

UN614, what you said is so true now. They don't care about anything except for that 500 hours on type experience. Very sad.

[macdo]

How unusual, a Pprune thread full of intelligent observation and balanced comment!
Some airlines do realise the benefit of TP hours. After sever years of DE Cadets, the policy was changed last year at TCX so that cadets would spend 2 years at FlyBe before coming onto the TC Fleet. I suspect that there is finally a recognition that the current regime stretches the resources of the weaker Captains and the weaker Cadets. Things may well move very slowly back in favour of some TP(or small jet) work experience before going onto a big jet, and it may well be the company insurers who begin to insist on it. Unfortunately, this info does not assist the OP.
Secondly, if you do commit to TP, for whatever reason, you are condemning yourself to a lifetime of poor wages. Generally, TP Capt and Jet FO on a proper contract with a respectable airline are not far apart, but with the JET FO having the option of promotion to JET Capt. which will be at least 15k more and if you are lucky with seniority pay, a top end of 100kplus.
Even if you start on poverty jet wages, your upside is still greater than the TP Capt.
There are plenty of jet jobs globally, at the moment, but history teaches that things change fast, so grab it while you can.

And take the long view, how much and how secure will I be in 5 years times, is more important than the downpayment on a nice car tomorrow.

UN614, you will get a good job in the ME FE with your experience, if you want to progress thats the only option unless very lucky.

[redED]

BB i had exactly the same conundrum at my operator, LHS Dash or RHS 195, i took the Embraer route and haven't looked back since. If your Dash reliability is anything like ours the mover to Miss Brazil will be like a hurricane of fresh air for you.

Good luck! :ok:

[zeddb]

Never ever turn down command.

Do so and you may wait 20 years or more for the opportunity to come around again.

Nothing wrong with turboprops either. I spent two years driving one round the UK and near Europe and that is where I really learned to fly. The fact that 12 year olds can buy their way into the RHS of an Airbus has got to tell you something about the magnitude of the challenge there.

And before everyone starts, I have indeed flown the Airbus and currently reside in a 747-8. So TP's never did me any harm. Quite the opposite in fact.

[angelorange]

Agree with ZEDDBE

Proper airlines want future captains not eternal FOs. When you get an interview with a DFO/Chief Pilot they will be checking your command potential from the get go.

If things go downhill in the EU, a Q400 Command allows you to take overseas jobs that an FO can't get be that in China, Vietnam or ME.

With the ever rising cost of JetA1 turboprops are likely to make a comeback - ATR have already had one of their best sales years in 2011.

Going from Q400 to an Airbus is not a big deal.

[bavarian-buddy]

Going from Q400 to an Airbus is not a big deal. You know it, and I know it, and many other prop drivers, but seems like 99% of the recruitment departements world wide disagree about that.
I know people who moved onto a 777 or 748, with only Q400 hours in their log (a few lucky ones). And many performed better than the stick flyers.
Too many jobs overseas require those "on type" or "jet" hours. :(

[Fair_Weather_Flyer]

Too many jobs overseas require those "on type" or "jet" hours.

Some do, like Emirates and Ethiad but they want thousands of jet hours which will still be some years away for you. Others want command hours on certain types of jet. The E190 series doesn't seem to be the one that they want the time on either and you're not going to get LHS time in that for a while either. Other airlines like Easyjet and Ryanair make money from desperate wanabees and won't look at you and the likes of Monarch, TCX, Virgin etc are not expanding or are on their knees with the state of the economy. You'll be fighting with the pay to fly fools to get these jobs as they also have jet time.

You said on your initial post that you want to fly cargo. TP hours are good for DHL, EAT, TNT, GSS and if you have enough of them, Cagoloux. Some of these airlines promote fast, so they may see an upgrade as a bigger deal than some jet hours. Other airlines that look at guys with TP time are BA, Fly Dubai and Qatar airways. Guys have also gone into decent small / mid size biz jet jobs from the Q400 in the LHS.

In your shoes, I'd take the TP command, probably better pay and will freshen things up. If the E190 will lead to a quick LHS, take that, but if it doesn't you'll be stuck with a lot of FO time and employers wondering if you would want or be able to handle and upgrade.

PS I'm LHS in a TP and would love to move on. I have found many employers start to take you seriously as a Captain and it has opened up some interesting possibilities.

[LH-OAB]

At your age, I'd go for the jet and broaden your options for the future. There are plenty of ex-jet pilots who chose to return to turboprops and seemed to have no difficulty doing so but there are probably more turboprop pilots who are stuck there finding it difficult to get a jet job for the reasons mentioned above.

[Love_joy]

I find myself in a similar situation to yourself, few more hours, though I'm just happy to go along with whatever happens.

A friend recently asked me "where do you want to be in 5 years?" and "which of the available paths will get you there first?" (Or at all?!)

Do remember, Flybe will be a completely different airline in 5 years. There will be nearly 50 Embraers in fleet and far less Q4's.

With attrition, retirements and the changing fleet its likely your upcoming left hand seat position will be a Jet position within 5 years (or so).

[Coffin Corner]

love_joy

He's already stated he does not work for Flybe.

[bavarian-buddy]

True. It's a small German operator maybe most of you won't know ;)
Augsburg Airways - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augsburg_Airways)

[FR8R H8R]

:cool:

Need sunnies to cut the glare from the SHINY JET SYNDROME here.

Seriously, a jungle jet is not a wide body and you're still in the right seat. Command in any crew aircraft will prep you for a future command. Sitting in the right seat for another 5 years will prep you for...another five years in the right seat.

Unless you plan to get a useful type (like a 747 or 777, not an embraer) in the right seat and move to another job, you NEVER TURN DOWN COMMAND.

Kids these days...:ugh:

[B737NG]

The Jet counts not the TP. For your total time you add the DH4 time. I flew in the early 90´s as well ERF-AGB-MUC-CGN-THF-RTM-VIE-BLQ-STR and so on. I took the Command and when the company went bust in early 96 I had nothing then TP time. I left the Country towards the sandpit and even we had Glas-type Instruments in the brand new TP´s back "home" nobody was looking at our CV´s seriously as there was no Jettime. We where lucky that the company internaly upgraded us from the TP to the Jet´s when they got some. After one year on the Jet invitations came more frequently in the late 90´s and I ended up in a B737 operation, thereafter it was in 2004 in B777.

As advised before: Take the Jet and who knows what game is played with IQ one day. Look what happens to C3, after the Summer it is almost over.

It is not selfish if you think for yourself: It is your career and your future. Nobody on the market gives a sh..t about you if you are out of a job. As online applications become more and more common it is difficult to draw attention to the individual. You need to fill into the requirements and that includes Jettime to get invitet to proove yourself. Later they are happy that you learned real flying and not only stick-moving and push-button SOP´s.

[Black Pudding]

Its all about job security


What you have to ask yourself is this. If your company goes bust, where you going to go. With TP command hours ? With Jet FO hours ? Which would make it easier for you to get another job ?


It also depends on what you want to do in life. Fly a TP for the rest of it ? Nothing wrong with that, but you have to think that you may have 30 years work ahead of you and although you may be happy working where you are now, where do you go if and when they go bust or you lose your job.


Some advice for you, but this is my own opinion. Get the jet time, go to Emirates, get a rating that will keep you in a job for life and then after a few years in the middle east, if you're not happy move on. Simple.


BA do not give a **** if you have command on a turbo prop. The last lots of advertisements from BA wanted you to have jet time over 50 tonnes or be rated on an aircraft they operate.


In the UK, you having TP time means nothing. easyJet, Monarch, Thomas Cook, BA, Thomson will look at those who have jet hours before TP command and Ryanair will never take anyone but a pay as you go as long as there is pay as you go's willing to do it which is good if its your first job.


I would say, get the jet time, get to Emirates after you have 2000 hours jet or Qatar after you have 1000 hours jet and then get a type rating that will give you a long lasting career.


Take the TP command and be a TP pilot for a long time ?

[bringbackthe80s]

Unless you plan to get a useful type (like a 747 or 777, not an embraer)

Useful for what? There isn't a single (decent) company who is looking for these types as a minimum requirement.

Any jet > 55t will be just fine for your CV.

For the time being, go to any jet.

[Black Pudding]

Who said long lasting career in Qatar, I didn't. Get jet time, get a job in Emirates or Qatar, get a rating and time on a large jet, then after a couple of years leave if you wish. Use them as they use you. Get the rating, get the hours and then move on if you can't hack it out in the Middle East.

These airlines currently have stacks of people trying to get back home who can't Your point is ? Nobody is stopping them leaving ? And why can't they return ?

My point is this, Command on a TP is not going to give you a long lasting career, because if and when the company you're working for tells you you're no longer required, chances of getting another job is a lot slimmer than it would be if you're flying a 195

And you're correct, no one wants to live in the sand pit, but a job is a job. You tell me where there is a better job please, post a link for it.

[bringbackthe80s]

What he s trying to say is that you can go nowhere with a 777 rating and 3-4-5000 hrs on it!

most of the companies require A320 time (sometimes 737). So any 747 777 340 time will be of no use realistically.

[Black Pudding]

I agree, so if Emirates offered you a job, ask for 330 and if Qatar offered you a job, ask for 320

[salsaboy]

And you're correct, no one wants to live in the sand pit, but a job is a job.

Well I quite like it.

[Black Pudding]

I would not go as far as to say I like it. I hate the driving. The place is ok and safe. The job is ok but hard work. Its a job and they pay on time every month and no chance or being made redundant.

Back to topic. TP command or 195 jet, it all depends on what you want to be doing in 10 years time. More chance of getting a larger jet job from a 195 than a TP

[FlyingTinCans]

Take the 195.

Dash 8 Command time and 195 FO time are equally as useless!

But on the 195 you wont go deaf and you wont be tired.

If after a few years you still enjoy being on the jungle jet, then stay on it for 2000hrs and then go to emirates.

If you need the extra cash, move back to the Dash as a Captain then stay on it until Easyjet, Thompson, Thomas Cook, Monarch etc. open DEC's again, or emirates start to recognise TP command time, or retire, which ever comes first!

Can you tell I am a frustrated TP driver? :O

[BBK]

The fact is, whether anyone likes it or not, some employers simply don't count TP time as valuable. I'm not saying that is fair or correct but that it is how a lot of companies operate.

Command time, for the big companies, is pretty well meaningless too. Why? Because you will spend a good few years in the rhs and so they will have a very good idea of what you are like before, hopefully, you get a promotion. I was given this advice by an ex Brittania Captain in my first job and I think it still holds true.

The other good advice I was given always get the biggest shiniest type rating you can. You can trade down later if that is what you want to do.

I'm not saying the "never turn down a command" is bad advice but here I think it's on dodgy ground.

[Black Pudding]

BBK, I think you told me the same advise about always try and fly the heaviest you can ?

[macdo]

FR8R
This would have been good advice 12 years ago but the game has changed and when it come to upgrade time and you are up against the CTC guy with 4000hrs on A32x, your command time will count for very little, unless its a tie-break situation. Sorry, but its a sad fact. Shiny Jet Syndrome, tch! that'll be the day!

[captplaystation]

As you see from the split opinion, there is no correct answer, it is neither A , nor B, it is (as always) C

C = what do you fancy /what rocks your boat.

Finally, pro's & con's to both (as proven by the "ask the public" response,) so finally, your choice.
Speaking personally, I loved, really loved, my 1st jet (DC9) nothing to beat that ethereal silence, both during take-off , & at high altitude. . .and the views :cool: but conversely,I would have no problems going back onto a Q400 if it got me a job where I wanted, with the company I wanted (strangely enough I HAVE pondered that particular option) even after 24 yrs of hairdryers. However, I appreciate it is easier to let something go after having sated oneself , than to not want it.
Then again, you are talking what is best career wise, not dewey eyed reminiscences, so, maybe it is also irrelevant



That




What I WOULD have problems with, is jumping back into the RHS, even if you offered me Concorde (OK, for that one I might have managed)
It is a cliche, but it is also entirely true, that sitting in the LHS changes so many things (mostly for the better) in this job we do.
You, and you alone set the mood for the day, if you are RHS with an imbecile, or a nasty piece of works in the LHS, the day is screwed. Yes, it is a good learning experience, but you won't go home singing in the car (actually you might, out of relief it is over )
I have never yet, had someone in the RHS ruin my day, I have sometimes been frustrated, sometimes been angry, but never ever had a complete 4 sector day fecked by having a pr1ck in the RHS.

That is worth a lot. IMHO

There is no right or wrong answer, do as your heart beckons, because your head has a 50/50 chance to get it right. . or wrong.

[angelorange]

Best response yet CPS

Option C every time and when life changes come along be prepared to roll with the punches. Priorities vary with age, beliefs, family, health, finances and what you enjoy doing. Enjoy whichever road you choose.

[goodpic]

captplaystation-very good summary why is it better to be a captain..simply very well said..same feelings here.

It takes some time and maybe years when we look back and see if a decision was good or bad.

To be a q400 capt at the age of 29 is not bad at all. I don't think there's a huge difference in terms of work when we compare a q400 copilot's job to an Embraer copilot's job. The difference starts when you compare long haul flying to any of these. Totally different lifestyle..now that's a difference. Not the propeller:O!

Jet hours are jet hours of course..this can be a good opportunity to see that kind of operation too..but don' expect too much difference. Maybe you are lucky and go for the Embraer now and within one or two years you can go back to the q400 LHS. Why not:O?

[sk8erboi]

Will jump on the jet band wagon. 10 years ago perhaps the TP command would not do any harm. A bit of fun before you went on to progress your career. Not just fun but amazing experience. Experience which counted for something as you moved on.
Sadly now TP command seems to count for nothing. As expressed above the 195 is a very limited market but its still the fabled narnia of a jet so go see what you think. You'll regret it if you don't. And at least it's not as limited as a q400!

[FR8R H8R]

I think we have established a couple of things here.

1. I am a dinosaur from an era when command was important and coveted.

2. Being in command with an idiot in the other seat is infinitely better than the opposite arrangement.

3. Getting command before 30 is nothing to discount. More time in the right seat can lead to right seat apathy and possibly cause an extended period in said seat. How many years to upgrade in the jungle jet?

4. It should be watever lifestyle suits you best, not what type you fly. If turboprops offered me the pay i make now, i would be there tomorrow.

5. You will not go deaf in a Q400 (unless the noise cancelling thing is on MEL) and you are flying the best non-second-world-war-fighter aircraft to ever have two props on the wing.

My money still says take the left seat if you like your company and are not in any hurry to move on. Otherwise, it makes no difference what you do.

Cheers.
Hater

[macdo]

All the above is correct depending on your standpoint and LS is better than RS, but we are talking about a career and income here, and when you finally have to leave the LS (TP or babyJet) to join a bigger (possibly more secure) airline, you are going back into that RS potentially for a very long time. Is it 'better to have loved and lost.....' as they say? I do know quite a few SFO's who have had commands before who are deeply resentful of the fact they now languish in the RS due to the recession. Those that have only known the RS have less to grumble about, but at least we are very well paid in our RS's and slowly but surely getting towards a command and some serious money. And yes I know money is not everything, but its pretty useful when you have a wife, kids and school fees to pay for.

[Piltdown Man]

For a whole variety of reasons, the best decision I ever made was to take a turbo-prop command. The transition from LHS turboprop to LHS jet was simple. And that was because of the previous command experience. And as Cap'n PS has pointed out, you make each day your own. You set the mood and tone of the day and with only a small amount of effort your crew and yourself can have a really good day at work. Amongst the people I work with there are probably only two or three names amongst the 140 or so I'd prefer not to fly with. Enjoying your day at work is priceless.

Shiny jets are only bits of equipment. The same Mk.I knob can be installed in any seat. But if you are sitting the LHS you can (or rather should) control the day, but it is a lot more difficult from to do so from the right.

Obviously there are lots people who have jumped at the right time and end up ahead of former colleagues but I'm sure that their are also many people like myself who have benefitted over senior colleagues by taking "a crappy turboprop" command.

To close, I'll have to quote a former training captain who I greatly respect, a guy called Dave Fisher. He said "You never turn down the chance of a command". And with hindsight, he was right. I'd certainly feel a lot more vulnerable being in the RHS in a jet during a recession than I would in the LHS of a turboprop.

[macdo]

No Offence, but where in the world can you get a job as a DE Captain having only flown Captain on TP? I think the answer is nowhere, at the moment, for any reputable airline.

[StopStart]

Jet2 is pretty reputable...

[LH-OAB]

I know of one TP LHS who has recently joined Jet2 but back in the RHS.

[bavarian-buddy]

Going back from LHS Prop to RHS jet would be no problem for me as long as the conditions are even or better. I don't need the ego thing. But there seem to be some companies who dont want ex captains on their RHS, unfortunately.

[hikoushi]

Went from LHS Dash-8 to RHS Boeing. Of course this is in the USA, so that's pretty normal here. Different world over here I suppose in that regard, interesting to read this thread and see how different it is out there. Used to be here it was minimum 1000 hours command time in pretty much ANY large turboprop or regional jet to get a shot at the RHS at a major airline. Most regional pilots here would happily jump out of the right seat of a CRJ / ERJ to fly left seat in a Brasilia, etc.

And then, of course, happily jump out of the turboprop LHS to the right seat in a Boeing or Airbus, etc (for a different company, obviously).

These days though, even over here you really need both jet and command time (though the command time could just as well be on a turboprop, with RHS time in the jet) to be competitive. But, if it were one or the other, the large turboprop command would be the more important of the two. Again, only applies to the USA.

[macdo]

DE Capt with Jet2 and only TP experience? Even if the previous type was an Electra, its exceptionally unusual these days.

[sorvad]

to quote Piltdown Man

"I'll have to quote a former training captain who I greatly respect, a guy called Dave Fisher. He said "You never turn down the chance of a command"."

This 'one size fits all' advice really isn't very helpful...there are just too many different personal circumstances at play...this thread sits very well with the "Ezy Captain or Virgin F/O" thread also on this forum.....the best advice Ive seen is to get in with the airline you want to spend your career with at the earliest possible opportunity..to do that you need to see what their requirements are...I would guess most legacy carriers..indeed almost all career jet airlines would prefer jet time regardless of seat over LHS turbo prop time...the only time LHS T/P time will stand you in good stead would I imagine be some sort of contract T/P job.

If on the other hand you like it where you are and want to progress from within, then I would take the command on the Turboprop...it will be a more fulfilling job sooner and, hey, if you have no wish to move on then what anyone else wants doesn't come in to it.

The bottom line is One mans meat is another mans poison....I love doing long haul and wouldn't change it for anything...a mate of mine has been flying turboprops for years and likes the more personal feeling of a small regional airline...another works short haul A320's on northern base and is happy as a pig in SH£t, so don't let anyone else's preconceptions lead you astray...do what feels right for you and no-one else

[Sunrig]

I was in a similar position and went for the jet experience. Luckily i got my jet command earlier than those who took the LHS TP. Unfortunately most companies just look for jet hours. So it all depends on what you want to achieve in your flying career.

[Metro man]

Take the jet while you are still younger than the captains you will be flying with. Upgrade on the Embraer and your next move into the left seat of an A320/B737 will a much smaller step.

However your next thread may be asking about A320 Captain vs B777 F/O.;)

Few serious airlines these days have turbo props in mainline, they get passed off to separate feeder companies with far lower terms and conditions and often little or no prospect of advancing across.

If you have career ambitions getting onto a jet asap is what counts, this part of the world is virtually all jet, I can't remember the last time I saw a TP in Hong Kong.

Turbo prop command would be better for a pilot close to retirement and happy where he was.

An older turbo prop Captain may be seen as less desirable than a young jet F/O who is easier to teach and less set in his ways.

[macdo]

METROMAN
This sounds more interesting, so in Asia, with its mega growth, there are DE Capt on A320 positions which you can get with EMB195 command time? If this is the case and the OP is willing to work in Asia, it does put a completely different complexion on the argument. The only issue now is how to get back to Europe, should you not want to spend 30 years in the Topics.

[zlocko2002]

i have lots of friends flying on q400, A320, several on B737 and one on B747.
they all agree that flying a turboprop is harder and more demanding job and it will make one a better pilot.
unfortunately today that is not something that is appreciated. :ugh:
if you don't intend to stay within same company and get to jet by seniority grab jet time!
also having experience in two types increases your chances to get some job if your company decide that your services are no longer neaded.

[Metro man]

My company loves RJ pilots, second only to rated with experience on type. DEC unlikely but 6 -12 month upgrade expected.

As a late 20s - early 30s jet F/O you fit the "profile". Mid 30s with only TP time and you are moving outside of what airlines want.

Over here A320/B737s are regarded as a bit of a nuisance by some controllers as they interfere with the flow of widebodies.;)

[macdo]

Jesus! Only 8 years to retirement, thank God for that!!:)

[bavarian-buddy]

Quick update if someone is interested. I took the Q400 command. And by no I really don't regret it :ok: It's a lot of fun and of course a bit more money. No one knows what future in aviation will bring but right now if feels for me that the prop command is better for my personal and academical development than sitting in the RHS of a medium jet.
We will see in a couple of years :E

[rogerg]

A few times a pilot with a lot of TP command time will be offered an upgrade to a Jet command
I have seen it a few times in the past. It just depends on the day to day requirements.

[Ronand]

You are working for Augsburg Airways by any chance? ;)

[JimNich]

Good to see a thread intelligently and well argued from both sides. I was interested in this topic because I've thought of moving onto frieght in the past. My domestic situation dictates I stay here (on TPs) and I don't have a problem with that. The older you get, the more important quality of life becomes.

However, stick your LHS/RHS rubbish up your jumper, the REAL action is in proper aircraft in the seat just behind the F/O (if you can find one outside of a museum, where mines is). :{

[AviatoR21]

I'm currently in the same situation however my current company has no jets to progress onto so I've decided to go with the jet. A320 to be exact, but then again I'm looking at getting to the M.East so it's all about jet time. I did enjoy my Q400 upgrade sims :).

[appleACE]

I realise you guys might think that this is a very noobish question, but please humour me.

Why do airlines consider TP hours to be a waste of time? I don't see how the engine type makes that much of a difference to the pilot. Turboprops are just unducted turbofans anyway.
Or is it about the size of aircraft, TPs being smaller than jets, with lower speeds and altitudes etc?

[Burpbot]

Let me know if you ever find the answer!!!!

[bigjarv]

Likewise I'd be quite keen to know.

[Stick35]

I have the deepest respect for guys having experience on turboprops. I can imagine it is much harder working if things go wrong. If i would be an operator with jets, i would love to welcome those guys. To answer the topic question: go for the turboprop command.

[EK380]

I know for a fact that we don't hire TP guys in EK because of the requirement to do base training in the aircraft (A330 or B777, A380) if one has no multicre jet experience. Needless to say this is expensive.

The guys with multicrew jet experience can start line training after the ZFT in the sim.

[UAU242]

I thought ZFT in the sim included base training? Hence no need to do base training in the actual aircraft. Where I am, the turbo prop guys have no multicrew jet experience but go into line training after ZFT in the sim...

[falconeasydriver]

ZFT requires experience of a similar type under CAR Ops (sandpit version of JAR Ops) A Q400/300 ATR isn't a similar type.
Lots of trainers I know also speak of this magical mental model that TP guys have, that seems to struggle as things get bigger and faster, never seen it myself but that's what I've been told

[bavarian-buddy]

Unfortunately TP is less worth than jet time, but no one really knows why.
It's like comparing a VW to a Mercedes or a Diesel to a petrol engine. It's not the car or the engine that makes a good driver. Physics are the same for everyone

[JimNich]

Apple

To try and answer your question, you must first understand that everything (or almost everything) comes down to money. The perception will be that someone who's upbringing was on TPs will be a greater training risk than someone who has already had jet experience (higher altitudes, different ladnding perspectives, faster climbs and descents, longer spool up times etc). Maybe not very accurate in gaugung an applicant's potential, but there you are, it makes the HR department's job easier.

Also, remember that most senior management pilots are still ex military fast jet and they will always favour those with jet time over someone without regardless of cost or risk.

What I can't answer is why they'll take a 250 hr cadet with a self funded JOC on some clapped out simulator over someone with 2000 hrs turbo prop who's been flying the line for a few years. There must be a saving somewhere. :ugh:

[Moonwalker]

To try and answer your question, you must first understand that everything (or almost everything) comes down to money. The perception will be that someone who's upbringing was on TPs will be a greater training risk than someone who has already had jet experience (higher altitudes, different ladnding perspectives, faster climbs and descents, longer spool up times etc). Maybe not very accurate in gaugung an applicant's potential, but there you are, it makes the HR department's job easier.

Also, remember that most senior management pilots are still ex military fast jet and they will always favour those with jet time over someone without regardless of cost or risk.

What I can't answer is why they'll take a 250 hr cadet with a self funded JOC on some clapped out simulator over someone with 2000 hrs turbo prop who's been flying the line for a few years. There must be a saving somewhere.

Funny how it argument against itself.
-Jet Experience is worth more when transition to another jet aircraft hence why TP guys are abandoned. (So far it could be logical...)

-Later on stating. Strange that 250 hrs guys with no hands on Jet experience is more qualified than a TP guy with 2000 hrs. (hmmm....:hmm:)

-The only conclusion from this argumentation is that "Experience" makes you less good for a Jet job when trying to transition from a TP job.

-For this reason. Make sure the first flying job you get is what you want to do for the rest of your career.

[EK380]

UAU242 :

- Base training is in the aircraft

-ZFT (Zero Flight Time!?) is in the... SIM!

[Sygyzy]

Not so fast....there is a base training detail flown in the sim on a ZFT conversion. Despite your patronising put down...it ain't so.

The base training session is one of circuits-all thoroughly briefed and flown (largely) visually to ensure that you'll be able to land the beast on your first line sector.

[JimNich]

Moonwalker

Agreed, it makes no sense. I daily sit next to young FOs, good competent pilots with a few years experience who would do well anywhere, who have £70+ grands worth of training debt trying very hard to get that first jet job.

I also agree that if possible, make your first job the one you want to make a career out of. It never used to be like this, but with the U.K. airlines doing most of their recruiting solely from the cadet schools, unless you want to go east, your options are very limited.

My opinion is that these schools, and the airline's insistence on using them, have created nothing but excessive debt for their customers. Their adverts have young pilots standing confidently infront of 777s etc., but it rarely delivers. The guys I speak to admit that most of the students on their courses still don't have jobs (but they sure as hell have the debt). So, for most, its a case of taking the first job that comes along, even if it is (dread the thought) on TPs.

[White Knight]

EK380

Not so fast....there is a base training detail flown in the sim on a ZFT conversion. Despite your patronising put down...it ain't so.

The base training session is one of circuits-all thoroughly briefed and flown (largely) visually to ensure that you'll be able to land the beast on your first line sector.

To be fair to EK380, although ZFT IS Base Training in the sim, here at EK "Base Training" is what's done in a real aeroplane and "ZFT" is sim. Symantics with words:ok:

[Sygyzy]

Well said.

Certainly you've lived up to your 'handle'.:O

[WMB]

Speaking form experience, choose a jet at the first opportunity, otherwise you will be just another prop skipper, looking for a way out.:ugh:

[rogerg]

Speaking from experience, choose a command at the first opportunity, otherwise you will be just another frustrated first officer, looking for a way out.

[FlyingOfficerKite]

Interesting.

In my case I chose jet FO rather than TP command - due to my age at the time (44 yrs old).

A younger colleague took the TP command and then progressed to jet FO.

2 years later we were both at the same airline and base on jets.

If I had been younger I would have taken the TP command - but market conditions dictated my choice.

With hindsight I wished I'd been able to gain some command experience first, but I made the best choice at the time based on the information available (I would have hated to miss the opportunity to fly jets).

Not always a simple choice - other factors come into play.

[AviatoR21]

Atleast the frustrated jet FO has the opportunity to gain a jet command once his number comes up while the TP Capt is guess what, still flying a TP.

[airline man]

Everything is uncertain in aviation. God forbid, tomorrow you may be without a job, at that time the next application you make will be a lot better looking when you have 2000 PIC hours as compared to 5000 f/o hours.
I don't have the confidence in this industry to pass off a major career progression opportunity as well as a pay hike expecting a very bright future far away.
That's my opinion.
Good luck!

[fade to grey]

I'd echo whats been said before.....It's all about money and perception.
A turboprop engine I would imagine, is harder to operate than a pure jet - look at all them levers. The RB211s on the 75 are simple.

No, it's not about 'engines' - what they are saying is you have only flown something light and slow, will you convert easily enough.

Personally , if I wa sunder 30 I'd have a bash at the TP command as good experience and fun, if something of a dead end.

Over 30, I'd go for the jet FO - assuming this 'jet' is a useful type in it's own right.

[Enecosse]

An interesting thread as it touches on a number things that are different in the industry and the dilemma people face.
I am well into 5 figures with flying hours, about half of which were on singles doing aerial work, piston twin single crew stuff and turbo props flying around NW Europe in the main. The rest on jets, with the only place I haven't been being South America.
What has struck me is that if I was to recount anecdotes about my flying career, they would probably be 99% about my flying pre-jet. Is this a good thing, probably. In this day and age we want those jetliners to go boringly from A to B, while we drink our coffee and watch the world go by. Don't get me wrong I still enjoy flying, find it interesting, keep myself motivated but there is a difference. Soon we will have a whole generation of pilots who will have nothing but jet time. As everyone knows the best way to fly a jet is on the autopilot through the FMS.
Whats my point, well the aviation business is what it is these days. I suspect the sooner you get on a jet the better, but what a loss in what you are turning down, TP command time will make you a better pilot. Unfortunately an unappreciated better pilot.

[AviatoR21]

Well said Enecosse, unfortunately for me the current company I work for has nothing else to progress onto but a TP command. I've been offered a great opportunity to fly a Airbus and earn more than what I would have earnt as a TP Capt.

Everyone is different I guess. Will people think less of me for having no TP command time? I'm not sure.